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B&M Dealer SERIOUSLY Lowballing Me on TOP POP Coin!!
TheShampineCollection
Posts: 98
Went to a local B&M. One that I have dealt with before for both buying and selling. Big store, nice people, always polite, great selection of quality stuff. This thread isn't meant to bash him, I just found our conversation (and his ignorance) kinda funny, so I thought I'd share.
I walk in, the manager recognizes me and says hello. I say hi and ask him if he has gotten in any new coins of the type I usually ask him about. He says no, so we chit-chat a little. I've never bought any modern stuff from him but he has a section of it in his displays. I asked if he would be interested in buying a PCGS slabbed Top Pop Ike. He says sure, let's see it. I pull it out of my jacket pocket and gently unwrap it from the soft cloth it is wrapped in. As I do so, another employee takes notice and peeks over his shoulder. I place the PCGS 1976-S Ike PR70DCAM coin on the glass and turn it toward him. He pics it up, looks closely at both sides, admiring the perfection. His employee says quietly "Wow, that is a beautiful coin." I reply that it is a pop 16 coin and a great type set coin, to which he agrees.
At this point, I am thinking that the dealer is admiring the coin, looking for a single flaw beyond the plastic, and thinking to himself what a great coin just walked into his shop. He sets the coin down and asks what I want for it. I tell him that I am willing to take a fair cash offer well under PCGS price guide value. He turns around and picks up a piece of paper from the desk behind him, its the grey sheet. Having never used the grey sheet for reference before, I think to myself, does the grey sheet really have pricing for a PR70DCAM PCGS Ike?
He scans the sheet and finds the coin. He calmy says, "I'll give you $1475 for it."
I say "I can't take that, that's not even close to the number I had in mind."
He turns the grey sheet to me and says "That's all I can pay, that is greysheet buy price on a 76 proof Ike. I have to make a few bucks on it."
I look on the sheet to where his finger is pointing. I am absolutely dumbfounded. I honestly can't believe what I am seeing. The sheet where he's pointing says "$14.75", not $1475. This guy is offering me $14.75 for my $6000 coin, not $1475!!! I am so shocked, I don't even know what to say. Thanks to past dealings with him and his shop, I know he knows I'm no rube, so he must really believe this Top Pop PCGS Ike is only worth $14.75. WOW!!
I understand that the dealer can buy whatever he wants for whatever price he wants and sell it for whatever he thinks he can get out of it. I also understand that most dealers don't want a lot of modern coins, nor do many care to deal with them much. But isn't the point of the hobby to be as educated as you can about all facets of the hobby? What if I walked in with this coin and would have taken $2000 for it? The dealer could have sent this coin off to any major auction and put a couple thousand dollars in his pocket on the deal. It just doesn't make any sense to me to not be educated on anything in your business that could be potentially worth thousands of dollars in profit to you.
As I attempt to get over my shock of his ignorance, I calmly explain that this coin is priced at $6000 in the PCGS price guide and they usually sell at auction between $4500 and $6500. Without missing a beat, he tells me the coin would just sit in his display and never sell if he priced it anything over $25.00. Then he proceeded to proudly tell me that he just took a bath on a PCGS Top Pop coin last week that was in the price guide for $12,000. He ended up selling it for $800 because "the market isn't that strong on top pop PCGS stuff right now".
Wow is all I can say.....just wow!
Greg
I walk in, the manager recognizes me and says hello. I say hi and ask him if he has gotten in any new coins of the type I usually ask him about. He says no, so we chit-chat a little. I've never bought any modern stuff from him but he has a section of it in his displays. I asked if he would be interested in buying a PCGS slabbed Top Pop Ike. He says sure, let's see it. I pull it out of my jacket pocket and gently unwrap it from the soft cloth it is wrapped in. As I do so, another employee takes notice and peeks over his shoulder. I place the PCGS 1976-S Ike PR70DCAM coin on the glass and turn it toward him. He pics it up, looks closely at both sides, admiring the perfection. His employee says quietly "Wow, that is a beautiful coin." I reply that it is a pop 16 coin and a great type set coin, to which he agrees.
At this point, I am thinking that the dealer is admiring the coin, looking for a single flaw beyond the plastic, and thinking to himself what a great coin just walked into his shop. He sets the coin down and asks what I want for it. I tell him that I am willing to take a fair cash offer well under PCGS price guide value. He turns around and picks up a piece of paper from the desk behind him, its the grey sheet. Having never used the grey sheet for reference before, I think to myself, does the grey sheet really have pricing for a PR70DCAM PCGS Ike?
He scans the sheet and finds the coin. He calmy says, "I'll give you $1475 for it."
I say "I can't take that, that's not even close to the number I had in mind."
He turns the grey sheet to me and says "That's all I can pay, that is greysheet buy price on a 76 proof Ike. I have to make a few bucks on it."
I look on the sheet to where his finger is pointing. I am absolutely dumbfounded. I honestly can't believe what I am seeing. The sheet where he's pointing says "$14.75", not $1475. This guy is offering me $14.75 for my $6000 coin, not $1475!!! I am so shocked, I don't even know what to say. Thanks to past dealings with him and his shop, I know he knows I'm no rube, so he must really believe this Top Pop PCGS Ike is only worth $14.75. WOW!!
I understand that the dealer can buy whatever he wants for whatever price he wants and sell it for whatever he thinks he can get out of it. I also understand that most dealers don't want a lot of modern coins, nor do many care to deal with them much. But isn't the point of the hobby to be as educated as you can about all facets of the hobby? What if I walked in with this coin and would have taken $2000 for it? The dealer could have sent this coin off to any major auction and put a couple thousand dollars in his pocket on the deal. It just doesn't make any sense to me to not be educated on anything in your business that could be potentially worth thousands of dollars in profit to you.
As I attempt to get over my shock of his ignorance, I calmly explain that this coin is priced at $6000 in the PCGS price guide and they usually sell at auction between $4500 and $6500. Without missing a beat, he tells me the coin would just sit in his display and never sell if he priced it anything over $25.00. Then he proceeded to proudly tell me that he just took a bath on a PCGS Top Pop coin last week that was in the price guide for $12,000. He ended up selling it for $800 because "the market isn't that strong on top pop PCGS stuff right now".
Wow is all I can say.....just wow!
Greg
0
Comments
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
-Paul
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Not surprising... hopefully you have a well drafted estate plan and/or have educated your family members about your collection in the event something happens to you have they have to sell your collection... you now know what would happen if they took them to the local coin shop!!!
HOLY COW...THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
<< <i>Not surprising... hopefully you have a well drafted estate plan and/or have educated your family members about your collection in the event something happens to you have they have to sell your collection... you now know what would happen if they took them to the local coin shop!!!
I TOTALLY AGREE
Steve
Don't forget the dealer has rent, utilities, insurance and parking lot fees to cover. He has to make a profit.
We all know the market is not strong on PCGS top pop coins.
<< <i>EXACTLY the point we have been making.
Don't forget the dealer has rent, utilities, insurance and parking lot fees to cover. He has to make a profit.
We all know the market is not strong on PCGS top pop coins. >>
The dealer could cover quite a bit of overhead with the difference between 15 bucks and the market value of the coin. What he should have done is simply told the OP that he wasn't interested in purchasing it.
Russ, NCNE
The flip side of this is.....I know where to go if I am looking to buy expensive plastic at a steep discount. Funny, I never seem to see any of these top pop, low price coins in their displays. Perhaps they do more "research" on the values after buying them, but before pricing them. I have always thought of this dealer as being very straight forward and on the level, now I am questioning that.
Greg
<< <i>Yes, my loved ones know of my coin collecting addiction. They know that they shouldn't clean the coins, handle the coins other than on the edges, and approximately what the better coins are valued at. I have a spreadsheet that tells what I paid for each coin, so they should have an idea if I disappear. The thing that truly shocked me the most is that this shop has probably 1/4 of their display space taken up by PCGS and NGC holdered coins. Certainly they must understand SOMETHING about the "plastic value".
The flip side of this is.....I know where to go if I am looking to buy expensive plastic at a steep discount. Funny, I never seem to see any of these top pop, low price coins in their displays. Perhaps they do more "research" on the values after buying them, but before pricing them. I have always thought of this dealer as being very straight forward and on the level, now I am questioning that.
Greg >>
The dealer knew exactly the value of what you had.
The dealer knew exactly what he was doing.
Welcome to the world of B&M.
<< <i>EXACTLY the point we have been making.
Don't forget the dealer has rent, utilities, insurance and parking lot fees to cover. He has to make a profit.
We all know the market is not strong on PCGS top pop coins. >>
I am the owner of a hair salon and another non-B&M business, so I 100% understand about overhead. There isn't a business in existance that needs to buy inventory for .0025% of retail in order to keep the lights on.
Greg
if, when he asked you what you wanted for
it, you told him a number. After all, you did have
a price in mind for it - and most coin shops do
not have a market for such Top Pop items, so
he would have no idea of what a fair market was
for your coin - you knew, but he can't know the
value for everything....
He would have then probably said in a nice
way, "wow, sorry, I didn't realize that a 70
coin like that was worth that kind of money".
and I'll bet he didn't pay 12K for the slab he sold for 800.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>
<< <i>EXACTLY the point we have been making.
Don't forget the dealer has rent, utilities, insurance and parking lot fees to cover. He has to make a profit.
We all know the market is not strong on PCGS top pop coins. >>
I am the owner of a hair salon and another non-B&M business, so I 100% understand about overhead. There isn't a business in existance that needs to buy inventory for .0025% of retail in order to keep the lights on.
Greg >>
Except for B&M coin dealers. Haven't you been reading their posts on these threads? The customer is always wrong. The B&M dealer is always right. The sooner we understand that, the easier it will be on us.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>Except for B&M coin dealers. Haven't you been reading their posts on these threads? The customer is always wrong. The B&M dealer is always right. >>
Nice strawman- good work!
Nobody has said that, of course. What *has* been said is that expecting other people to do what you want them to (how they act towards you, what they'll buy or sell for, etc.) is unrealistic.
But you knew that, right?
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Tom
<< <i>
<< <i>Except for B&M coin dealers. Haven't you been reading their posts on these threads? The customer is always wrong. The B&M dealer is always right. >>
Nice strawman- good work!
Nobody has said that, of course. What *has* been said is that expecting other people to do what you want them to (how they act towards you, what they'll buy or sell for, etc.) is unrealistic.
But you knew that, right?
How long did it take me? About 50 years of collecting experience in dealing with different kinds of dealers.
If purchased for $15 it's a fair bet the dealer would have then proceeded to do a few minutes of research to find out what the coin was priced at on the PCGS site, or maybe checked some
Heritage archives. If not, he'd have tossed it in the case and waited for some modern buffs or dealers to come along and ask them what they would pay for it. After several rounds of offers he'd probably figure out what it was worth. There are pretty few coin shops around these days that don't have some sharp eyes wandering in every several days. My own local shop probably has a contingent of 2 to 3 dozen sharp dealers that make the rounds every month or so. That doesn't even include a larger number of sharp collectors. If they didn't know what the Ike was worth, they'd find out quick enough and then try to rip it.
PCGS price guide can be all over the map. I'd normally figure 60% of the listed price is wholesale for most coins. But when it comes to sleeper coins and pop top moderns the rule doesn't work so well.
roadrunner
<< <i>How long did it take me? About 50 years of collecting experience in dealing with different kinds of dealers. >>
Really? That long? Just to be able to make up and then sarcastically comment on an argument nobody else is making?
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>The B & M's that don't like moderns are the best place in which to cherrypick raw moderns. Don't make an enemy, but consider him/her your new partner. >>
Now that is a very good point!
Tom
<< <i>The B & M's that don't like moderns are the best place in which to cherrypick raw moderns. Don't make an enemy, but consider him/her your new partner. >>
EXACTLY!!! TPRC and roadrunner also make good points. Where is Lee when we need him? I am sure he will have some great insight on the subject.
Here are pics of the coin taken with my phone just for fun:
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes, my loved ones know of my coin collecting addiction. They know that they shouldn't clean the coins, handle the coins other than on the edges, and approximately what the better coins are valued at. I have a spreadsheet that tells what I paid for each coin, so they should have an idea if I disappear. The thing that truly shocked me the most is that this shop has probably 1/4 of their display space taken up by PCGS and NGC holdered coins. Certainly they must understand SOMETHING about the "plastic value".
The flip side of this is.....I know where to go if I am looking to buy expensive plastic at a steep discount. Funny, I never seem to see any of these top pop, low price coins in their displays. Perhaps they do more "research" on the values after buying them, but before pricing them. I have always thought of this dealer as being very straight forward and on the level, now I am questioning that.
Greg >>
The dealer knew exactly the value of what you had.
The dealer knew exactly what he was doing.
Welcome to the world of B&M. >>
I believe you are absoulutely incorrect. I have delt with many B&M Dealers and many of them don't give a crap about the modern MS70/PR70 game. Even with variety coins they say they are cool but they are people who collect them are rarer than the coin.
Successful BST Transactions!SIconbuster, Meltdown, Mission16, slothman2000, RGjohn, braddick, au58lover, allcoinsrule, commemdude, gerard, lablade, PCcoins, greencopper, kaz, tydye, cucamongacoin, mkman123, SeaEaglecoins, Doh!, AnkurJ, Airplanenut, ArizonaJack, JJM,Tee135,LordMarcovan, Swampboy, piecesofme, Ahrensdad,
Greg
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
<< <i>
<< <i>The B & M's that don't like moderns are the best place in which to cherrypick raw moderns. Don't make an enemy, but consider him/her your new partner. >>
Now that is a very good point! >>
So... let's recap:
1. According to some, a dealer is cheating people by not paying more than than- well, you know.
2. Identifying such dealers can present good buying opportunities.
What can one make of this?
Well, one conclusion is that knowing that a dealer grossly underpays his selling customers is a good thing if you can profit from it personally.
<< <i>No B&M dealer in their right mind would pay big money for a coin where 99% of the collecting population can't tell it apart from a 69DCAM. I agree he probably had no idea what it was worth. But why would he? The look you gave him is probably the same look he would have given you if you had said "I need $3,500 for it" when he asked you what you wanted. Your number would have made no sense to him either. I don't consider his offer a sign of ignorance. He didn't know what the coin was worth. You asked for an offer and he gave you one. If anything, the story illustrates to me the narrowness of a market for top pop moderns. >>
I agree with you. Like I stated in my original post, I didn't expect him to know about the coin or know its exact value. But he should ABSOLUTELY know where to reference for the price on such a coin. Like I said, I am NOT bashing the dealer. I have had quite a few very good experiences with him and his employees. I wasn't expecting to get top dollar, and I felt that it was an outside shot that he would even be interested in the coin. I did not mean the dealer was ignorant in general, just ignorant to the values in this admittantly narrow market. I'm not using the word "ignorant" to be insulting to him, but rather to express his lack of knowledge of this particular segment of the market.
Greg
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The B & M's that don't like moderns are the best place in which to cherrypick raw moderns. Don't make an enemy, but consider him/her your new partner. >>
Now that is a very good point! >>
So... let's recap:
1. According to some, a dealer is cheating people by not paying more than than- well, you know.
2. Identifying such dealers can present good buying opportunities.
What can one make of this?
Well, one conclusion is that knowing that a dealer grossly underpays his selling customers is a good thing if you can profit from it personally. >>
Not at all! I'm assuming that the dealer is entirely legit but doesn't know or like moderns. In that situation, knowledge is power and if you know how to identify high end modern coins, and the dealer doesn't know or care, it presents a buying opportunity for the well informed. Isn't this what we all do...apply our knowledge and grading skill to acquire the best coins we can for the money? In fact, I plan on doing it tomorrow, but not with moderns.
Tom
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
<< <i>Not at all! I'm assuming that the dealer is entirely legit but doesn't know or like moderns. >>
Fair enough. Unfortunately, too often here, non-dealers appear to want to have it both ways- the dealer is either an expert that should know about everything or he's incompetent and doesn't know anything, depending on the particular point they're trying to make. Dealers are people, just as collectors are. There are all kinds.
Very good point Russ....
K
anywhere close to your money. The problem with POP top moders is that you never
know when that number will increase exponentially. That is why I am always a bit
hesitant putting big money in such a coin. Perhaps If you contacted a specialist in
such coins like Wonder coin he could assist you. He is a long time member of this Forum and
you can Google him to get his number. Mitch is a really good guy and he will tell you
straight what he can do for you. Best wishes and best of luck to you.
Camelot
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>That's like taking a year-old Lambo to a "we buy cars" shack on Van Nuys Blvd.
If you offered the coin to me, as I don't collect moderns, I wouldn't know what to do with it, and tell you that's you'd get a better price elsewhere. Also, if you use the PCGS price guide as an asking price, no one will take you seriously.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Now, as far as what people would pay, well, that's up to the individual. If I had the money lying around, I'd totally buy that from him. Not because it would look sweet in my registry(although it would lol), but I can appreciate how rare and hard to get something like that is. PR69DCAM's on Ike's aren't very hard at all to get. Case in point, for that date, there's over 16000 PR69DCAM. Only 16 have been graded higher PLUS that number hasn't changed in a long time. To have something that big, have no marks, rubs, haze and superior eye appeal, is very hard to do.
Also, as a collector of modern proofs, mostly Roosevelt's, the quality control of usually anything before 1980, is nothing like today. Some dates and denominations are worth a couple hundred and more in just PR69DCAM, let alone a perfect example.
<< <i>All this defense of this dealer for offering $14.75 is a little too much... if the OP sold the coin to him for $14.75 you all know damn well he wouldn't have just put it in his case for a reasonalbe markup over his cost. Whether he knows the modern market or now, he would have done the minute or two of research and easily figured out it's a 4-figure coin and priced it accordingly. >>
Me thinks the OP is finding out the hard way that it is not really a four figure coin. I dont know why price guide makers perpetuate this type of behavior?
<< <i>I guess I'm not sure why you are so shocked either. I would have a similar reaction as the dealer and I have seen many B&M dealers who treat high end moderns just like this (Though admittedly a "70" coin is scarce). I guess that doesn't excuse my ignorance or his, and as a dealer I suppose he should have known better, but as an advanced collector of moderns so, too, should you. This is a specialty field that does not appeal to some, perhaps many. From my perspective, with thousands of coins slabbed as 69s and with little or no difference between the two grades, I just don't see the value in buying a nice coin in a 70 holder whne I can get one which to my eye is the same, for about $25 in a 69 holder. >>
Lots of mom & pop dealers still believe it's foolish and a scam to have huge prices for very common modern non-circulating coins that almost always come perfect, or close enough to perfect that a $20 coin and a $2000 coin are indistinguishable to them or their customer base.
<< <i>
<< <i>All this defense of this dealer for offering $14.75 is a little too much... if the OP sold the coin to him for $14.75 you all know damn well he wouldn't have just put it in his case for a reasonalbe markup over his cost. Whether he knows the modern market or now, he would have done the minute or two of research and easily figured out it's a 4-figure coin and priced it accordingly. >>
Me thinks the OP is finding out the hard way that it is not really a four figure coin. I dont know why price guide makers perpetuate this type of behavior?
I'll agree on the PCGS price guide for the most part. Items I buy are about a 1/5 to 1/8 what the guide says. However, something like what he has, there isn't very many of them and most of them are tied up in collections. So when one DOES come on sale, they go for several thousand dollars.
Not getting any bites on Craigslist?
<< <i>Me thinks the OP is finding out the hard way that it is not really a four figure coin. >>
It is absolutely a four figure coin. List it in an auction, and it would bring a minimum of $3500.
Russ, NCNE
And the irony of that is that he would certainly flipped that coin for $14.75 to the first coin dealer that walked in the shop.
Fwiw I've yet to see a PF70 coin, esp. one as large as an Ike where I couldn't find some flaw on it with a 5X glass. I'd be curious to see if the majority of collectors could pull those same
16 coins out of the pack of 16,000. I doubt I could. I don't think I could find the best 16 coins out of 16,000 and feel confident they were all of the same general quality. Now 300-500
coins cherried out of 16,000 would be a different story. Sorry, but 16 out of 16,000 makes no sense to me on many levels.
roadrunner
<< <i>The B & M's that don't like moderns are the best place in which to cherrypick raw moderns. Don't make an enemy, but consider him/her your new partner. >>
The old "lemonade from lemons" argument.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
The collector needs to know if it's something that has value but only to the right buyer and in the right venue or if it's a coin you can sell anyplace and hope to get a reasonable offer for (like 90% silver, gold, maybe even a graded key coin).
It's important because if you left it in an estate it's unlikely to be sold properly to get the full value. It's also unlikely that if you needed cash and had to sell it in the next 4 hours to a local B&M that they'd make a good offer.
I know it myself. I collected modern varieties.
I learned that if I wanted something it costs a lot in auction but if I brought it to a B&M they'd scoff and not want it.
After you understand the reality you're better off, there's no reason to blame the dealers. Just understand the reality yourself.
If you want to sell that top pop coin put it in a big auction!
This is so TRUE:
<< <i><< That's like taking a year-old Lambo to a "we buy cars" shack on Van Nuys Blvd. >> >>