Legend Market Report hot off the press

Justacommeman · June 11, 2011 12:16PM

Warning.............If you click on any of these cobalt blue letters a Legend Market Report will open. It is called a link. If you don't want to read it, I suggest you don't click the link. There will also be some misspelling and even an option to look at inventory if you click a link to the left hand side of the screen. If you don't want to look at the inventory do not click that link. Lets recap. Click the link and read the report if you wish. Don't click the link and the report won't open. Carry on at your own risk

MJ

joebb21 · June 11, 2011 12:18PM

MJ- thanks for the warning first...
That was a close one...

MsMorrisine · June 11, 2011 12:21PM

private treaty sales are happening like the world is going to end

what do they know!?!?!!?!?!

llafoe · June 11, 2011 12:26PM

<< private treaty sales are happening like the world is going to end

what do they know!?!?!!?!?! >>

2012 is next year... correct?

Broadstruck · June 11, 2011 12:29PM

<< Warning.............If you click on any of these cobalt blue letters a Legend Market Report will open. It is called a link. If you don't want to read it, I suggest you don't click the link. There will also be some misspelling and even an option to look at inventory if you click a link to the left hand side of the screen. If you don't want to look at the inventory do not click that link. Let's recap. Click the link and read the report if you wish. Don't click the link and the report won't open. Carry on at your own risk >>

AnkurJ · June 11, 2011 12:30PM

It seems NGC is losing respect more and more every day. Why else would those MS65 $10 Indians be offered at such a low price? They must have not been nice coins.

Bear · June 11, 2011 12:37PM

I agree with Lauras perspective.People are losing faith in cash and in PMs. They are in fact

turning to rare coins of unquestioned high quality with the WOW factor. I myself have been

investing money in rare coins as you all well know. In fact, I believe that I was refered to in

her report. As I have been saying for some time, high quality coins are not widgets in most cases.

As an example, I have probably spent more money on rare coins in the past 45 days ,

then I have spent in 10 years. However, one can not just throw money around and expect a miracle.

You have to have a plan of what you want to do. You have to develop an eye for what is the WOW

factor. You have to have a network of reliable dealers who carry the proper coins even when there

is an overal shortage of such coins on the market. These dealers have theie sources and the average

or mid cap collector does not. There is not a single thing in Laura's report that I can find in error. I should

know, as I am part of the drive to collect rare coins in high grade with a beautiful look to them. Of course

folks can disagree with me, but being as involved in the market place for many decades and almost 8 hours

a day 7 days a week. I can feel this wave building, as surely as I know that the sun will rise tomorrow.In

the next week there may be as many as 10 coins added to my Bear Estate Collection. These include big type,

coins, some rare dates and some special 2 year changes of design in a series.

Of course the article is somewhat self serving. Why would a dealer have a website and a regular report if not

to brag a bit and with some major justification I might add. To be sure, there a a number of wonderful coins in

NGC holders, however, I generally see much more of them in PCGS holders. Whether some like it or not, PCGS and

CAC are starting to go together like peanut butter and jelly. Collectors want assurance that what they are paying

money for, they are getting good value for that money.

SoCalBigMark · June 11, 2011 12:38PM

As usual, more self serving, runny bull elmo.

Justacommeman · June 11, 2011 12:39PM

<< It seems NGC is losing respect more and more every day. Why else would those MS65 $10 Indians be offered at such a low price? They must have not been nice coins. >>

Two coins do not make a market and no concrete conclusion can be drawn by it. You want to be believe what you wrote because it is self serving. Didn't you just cross some NGC coins into PCGS holders? Didn't some of them upgrade?There are plenty of low end coins in PCGS holders. Don't kid yourself.

MJ

WTCG · June 11, 2011 12:45PM

Tik...tok...tik...tok...

Personally I believe certified generic gold coins are worth buying at this time. The premiums are the lowest they've ever been for all mint state grades across the board. Sure they are absolutely dead at this time but they are one promotion away from being highly coveted like they have been before.

OnTheHunt · June 11, 2011 12:45PM

<< I agree with Lauras perspective.People are losing faith in cash and in PMs. They are in fact

turning to rare coins of unquestioned high quality with the WOW factor. I myself have been

investing money in rare coins as you all well know. .... I can feel this wave building, as surely as I know that the sun will rise tomorrow.In

the next week there may be as many as 10 coins added to my Bear Estate Collection. These include big type,

coins, some rare dates and some special 2 year changes of design in a series. >>

Mr. Bear - you're certainly not putting all your eggs in one basket (coins)? If so, I fear for your heirs.

Steve

DaveE · June 11, 2011 12:45PM

It seemed to me that the report was not picking on either grading service-just generic gold in general is in trouble.

SoCalBigMark, why wouldn't the report be self serving? Legend was talking about what happened to Legend. What is in the report does provide all of us with important information on things (like generics) that Legend typically does not handle.

I think the content of this report is very informative-especially on generic gold. What other dealer would dare to say what Legend did?

Bear · June 11, 2011 12:50PM

Tick tock......Is the world as we know it, coming to an end......again?

Each collector must determine what the heck they believe is going on

in the coin market. If your evaluation is correct you win. If your evaluation

is wrong, you lose. That's how the world works. No one knows for absolute

certainty whats happening, but if one deals in the market place10 hours

a day every month and attends all of the major shows, I would bet that.they

will tend to be correct many more times then they are wrong. I am buying

coins now because I believe that they will cost more as month from now

and a year from now. If I guess wrong, then it was my call and I accept the

consequences of my opinion and actions.

AnkurJ · June 11, 2011 12:51PM

<< 

<< It seems NGC is losing respect more and more every day. Why else would those MS65 $10 Indians be offered at such a low price? They must have not been nice coins. >>

Two coins do not make a market and no concrete conclusion can be drawn by it. You want to be believe what you wrote because it is self serving. Didn't you just cross some NGC coins into PCGS holders? Didn't some of them upgrade?There are plenty of low end coins in PCGS holders. Don't kid yourself.

MJ >>

Actually, I have looked at coins of the same type and grade side by side, and in MANY, not ALL cases, the PCGS coin was better quality. Trust me, its not just those two coins that make the market. I have seen more crap in NGC holders compared to PCGS. And for your info, the coins I crossed from NGC to PCGS were nice quality coins, not crap. Ask any serious collector, sight unseen, they will have more confidence in a PCGS holder than an NGC holder. Unless of course they are chasing coins with "stars" on them.

mkman123 · June 11, 2011 12:56PM

I've seen some crappy pcgs graded coins and nicer NGC coins. I like both companies and will continue to get coins graded by both companies.

mkman123 · June 11, 2011 12:59PM

I think generic gold are pretty hot. At the coin show I went to, most people were asking for bullion or generic numismatic gold with low premiums. They wanted something with the precious metal content AND the history.

Bear · June 11, 2011 12:59PM

As well you should. Each collector must adapt their own buying procedure

to match their experience, skill and ability. There may be no perfectly

correct way to do anything in this world. We all do the best we can and

hope for the best.

Justacommeman · June 11, 2011 1:11PM

<< 

<< 

<< It seems NGC is losing respect more and more every day. Why else would those MS65 $10 Indians be offered at such a low price? They must have not been nice coins. >>

Two coins do not make a market and no concrete conclusion can be drawn by it. You want to be believe what you wrote because it is self serving. Didn't you just cross some NGC coins into PCGS holders? Didn't some of them upgrade?There are plenty of low end coins in PCGS holders. Don't kid yourself.

MJ >>

Actually, I have looked at coins of the same type and grade side by side, and in MANY, not ALL cases, the PCGS coin was better quality. Trust me, its not just those two coins that make the market. I have seen more crap in NGC holders compared to PCGS. And for your info, the coins I crossed from NGC to PCGS were nice quality coins, not crap. Ask any serious collector, sight unseen, they will have more confidence in a PCGS holder than an NGC holder. Unless of course they are chasing coins with "stars" on them. >>

1) no serious collector would buy a coin sight unseen. Your point is moot.

2) yes, there are nice coins in NGC holders. You have personal knowledge of this.

In my opinion collectors that only collect coins in one slab or another cheat themselves. There is no way they can have the best collection possible within there means when they eliminate a huge population of coins by slab preference. The best collections I've seen have a mix of slabs.

Chasing coins with only CAC stickers, or ones with only pluses or only stars is eliminating a lot of great coins as well. To each is own.

Ankur, please do yourself a favor and read this thread. Some great collectors weigh in on PCGS and NGC gold coins

MJ

Broadstruck · June 11, 2011 1:20PM

Oh Boy!

llafoe · June 11, 2011 1:25PM

<< Oh Boy!

>>

Sexist!

MidLifeCrisis · June 11, 2011 1:27PM

<< In my opinion collectors that only collect coins in one slab or another cheat themselves. There is no way they can have the best collection possible within there means when they eliminate a huge population of coins by slab preference. The best collections I've seen have a mix of slabs. >>

Those of us with severe OCD prefer a collection of coins in one slab and my slab of choice is PCGS. But great coins withstand the scrutiny of a crossover and should be recognized by any TPG for what they are.

In other words, I'll buy an NGC graded coin but it has to cross to PCGS if it's going to stay in my collection.

jamesfsm · June 11, 2011 1:29PM

"Chasing coins with only CAC stickers, or ones with only pluses or only stars is eliminating a lot of great coins as well."

For my 2C's, I believe the above quote is the best investment advice in this entire thread.

TahoeDale · June 11, 2011 1:33PM

I'm a PCGS fan, but totally agree with justacommem. While the Legend report was talking about $10 indians in NGC 65 slabs, the same "problem"with price applies to almost all series.

Barber halves -- over 1/3 of my MS collection were originally in NGC holders. Eventually all either crossed, or slabbed at PCGS at 1 grade lower. Thus, if I had never looked at dates in NGC holders, I would have missed out on some nice coins.

Same with my early and bust halves-- many were originally NGC. One particularly was in NGC 61, and crossed to PC. Easily worth double what I paid.

You are surly better off, price wise, if you get the coin crossed, plussed, or CAC-ed. Or pay way under market value, and take a grade down on the cross.

Look at all coins in the grades and series you are collecting.

stman · June 11, 2011 1:56PM

<< We have restled with how to break this news. Unlike so many other dealers who are in denial, want to tell you about their lunch, do not believe in speaking negative on the market, >>

I for one would like to hear a lunch report in these reports.

DaveE · June 11, 2011 1:58PM

Read the report! Generic gold has crashed. Quit trying to derail the message!

AnkurJ · June 11, 2011 2:09PM

MJ: My collection is actually about a 50:50 split between PCGS and NGC. My more expensive coins are in PCGS plastic, many of which are CAC stickered. My reason for crossing a few certain coins from NGC to PCGS is purely for registry reasons. If the PCGS registry accepted NGC coins, I would not bother crossing them to be honest. I guess that is a business strategy.

As for not buying coins in certain plastic, I do consider all coins regardless. Out of my most recent purchases, three of the coins are in NGC plastic, and I have no intention of crossing them as they are accurately graded quality coins. As for CAC, if I am going to pay a large sum of money for a coin, I will want a CAC sticker on it. I am looking at a major purchase in the near future, and the green bean does give peace of mind, especially when it comes to early gold.

Coinosaurus · June 11, 2011 2:09PM

<< 

<< We have restled with how to break this news. Unlike so many other dealers who are in denial, want to tell you about their lunch, do not believe in speaking negative on the market, >>

I for one would like to hear a lunch report in these reports.

>>

Me too. What fun is a coin show without a good meal

Justacommeman · June 11, 2011 2:17PM

<< 

<< In my opinion collectors that only collect coins in one slab or another cheat themselves. There is no way they can have the best collection possible within there means when they eliminate a huge population of coins by slab preference. The best collections I've seen have a mix of slabs. >>

Those of us with severe OCD prefer a collection of coins in one slab and my slab of choice is PCGS. But great coins withstand the scrutiny of a crossover and should be recognized by any TPG for what they are.

In other words, I'll buy an NGC graded coin but it has to cross to PCGS if it's going to stay in my collection. >>

I totally understand Mark...............I suffer with OCD myself. I wish all my coins were in the very same type holder for uniformity. If NGC and PCGS had the exact same slab with just their logo as the identifier I would be one happy dude. People reading this without OCD may not get it...................

Ankur, good to hear. As far as the registry game goes I think the PCGS only inclusion stigma actually hurts them. NGC gets lots more registry action because of the PCGS only policy. They obviously accept both PCGS and NGC coins without prejudice. I prefer viewing the NGC registry sets as they are littered with great coins from both services. MJ

tradedollarnut · June 11, 2011 2:21PM

The difference in quality of coins between the two fresh from the grading service is much smaller than the difference in quality of those coins offered for sale to collectors. This exaggerates the perception, albeit accurate to a degree, that NGC is far looser on their grades.

Monstarcoins · June 11, 2011 3:43PM

<< The difference in quality of coins between the two fresh from the grading service is much smaller than the difference in quality of those coins offered for sale to collectors. This exaggerates the perception, albeit accurate to a degree, that NGC is far looser on their grades. >>

Im not going to argue this but I can tell you that NGC has given me a spanking the last two submissions. Not just that but I have bought some recent submissions that received that same spanking. Now I will only submit to PCGS because it just didn't make sense to get over-the-top strict grading and less money for the grade.

pennyannie · June 12, 2011 4:53AM

I think the economy is decent where i live, i see lots of coins, guns, collectable, toys being offered for sale but not a lot of buyers.

Party on Legend!!

MrEureka · June 12, 2011 8:08AM

In addition we witnessed a major WHOLESALER/importer of gold trying to sell off a few hundred MS64 $2.5 Indians for below $1,000.00

That's interesting. I've never seen a deal of unc quarter eagles in that sort of quantity.

I suspect that these are somebody's accumulated position coming back to market, not a freshly made deal. If I'm right about that, I would expect the quality of the deal to be pretty poor, so the low price is not surprising.

Can anyone here fill in the details for us?

roadrunner · June 12, 2011 9:06AM

Sounds like it's a good time to sell high quality rare coins for top dollar and roll that into totally out of favor choice and gem generic gold. While generic gold has been falling for an incredible 1-1/2 yrs with gold advancing 28% (and silver up 100%) it's not the only thing out of favor. Gold and silver mining stocks have followed a general similar path to generic gold. Both have demonstrated leverage to the gold price in the past, but both have also peaked in the 2006-2008 time frame. For various reasons, both are out of favor regardless of what the gold price has done. The gold miner charts show a 2-3 yr consolidation, something not unheard of considering they consolidated for 15-20 yrs from 1981-2001. I suspect generic gold will come out of its funk with a vengeance when gold miners do. Right now people don't want to tie up their money in mining stocks when they see sizeable risks before them. Most have not gotten over the shocks of seeing mining stocks fall 65-90% in 2008 with generic coins falling a large amount as well. Gold bullion is just much safer,fungible and far easier to deal with. People can understand it a lot better than complicated mining stocks and generic gold with sloppy grading. Yeah, most NGC MS65 $10 Indians have too many marks for my taste. PCGS is a bit tighter on them. By choosing a stickered coin you're reducing the available # of coins by 70-80%. Which makes them scarce enough.

To say that gold bullion and cash are out while top quality rare coins are "in" is a bit of a stretch. Bullion and cash will never be out of favor, at least not anytime in the next few years. Gold has been slow and steady up the ramp for 10 yrs now. Gold is within 3% of its all-time high and probably the most favored asset world wide. And even US dollars aren't exactly shunned. There's the same amount of gold above ground as there is paper "cash." Both are in short supply when it comes down to it. It's debt, credit, and keystroked "money" that is in total abundance. Generic gold has crashed so far (ie MS65 $10 Indians from $7500 in spring 2006 to the current $2500-$3200) that there is really not much further they can fall. They can't fall any futher than the price of bullion, a point where many MS61-MS63 $10's and $20's currently sit. Out of total disdain comes a resurgence. Look what happened to MS63-MS65 silver dollars recently after they were considered nothing more than generic junk for the past several years. Legend sounded the death-knell for generic gold just about the time it bottomed hard a few years ago. That was probably around late 2008. That was just about the time to see $20's start to fly again. It wasn't long after that they were on the bang-wagon pushing generic gold as great values. Whoddathunk? It's probably a good thing today if they are sounding the death-knell for Saints as they did at the Philly show a couple of years ago when 63's were going begging for $1200....and when GE stock was in in the mid-single digits. It's ok to let Legend be the designated driver for boutique quality 5 and 6 figure rare coins. I'm not about to acknowledge their "guru" status on generic gold, gold bullion, forex, and the Dow.

Summer is typically the worst time of year for PM's, especially generic gold. It's not unexpected at all to see it "crash" and have negligible interest at this time of year. In fact it's the norm over the past 7 years. It's just hard to fathom that choice unc $10's and $20's are bringing smaller premiums to intrinsic spot today than circ wheat pennies. It's not something that should last forever. I would agree with what WTCG stated earlier. It takes a relatively small amount of money to sop up the available supply of choice and gem generic gold. The so-called market makers don't readily want to stock more than a few million bucks at any time. Considering the market is >300X time that amount, it leads to liquidity issues in both bear and bull markets. It should also be noted that in the world gold market the big boyz are currently playing bullion long while shorting the miners. The same game is generally being played in rare coins with dealers being long gold bullion but shorting generic gold (ie not stocking or wanting to buy generic gold with any strength).

roadrunner

Bear · June 12, 2011 9:14AM

You places your bets and yous takes your chances.

Place your bets folks.

MrEureka · June 12, 2011 9:23AM

Out of total disdain comes a resurgence.

Agreed, although I'll add two "buts".

First, the resurgence can take a long time. For example, just look at Classic Commems.

Second, it pays to think about which coins are legitimately cool and undervalued (and are therefore more likely to come back at some point) and which were simply overpriced cr*p before the market tanked (in which case a revival is less assured).

dbcoin · June 12, 2011 9:45AM

1924 $20 PCGS MS64 going for $1800 + juice on Teletrade tonight

1924 PCGS MS64

Someone forgot to tell that bidder. In fact, all the gold is going for good prices tonight. A 1906 MS63+ is going for $1850 + juice

TheBigB · June 12, 2011 9:53AM

<< Sounds like it's a good time to sell high quality rare coins for top dollar and roll that into totally out of favor choice and gem generic gold. >>

Good call roadrunner.

DaveE · June 12, 2011 9:55AM

Selling coins on teletrade is not wholesaling them to dealers or marketmakers. Call a major dealer like heritage and ask what they'd pay. Then you will see the shock.

dbcoin · June 12, 2011 9:57AM

<< Selling coins on teletrade is not wholesaling them to dealers or marketmakers. Call a major dealer like heritage and ask what they'd pay. Then you will see the shock. >>

But who does that besides dealers? Is that what she is talking about? I could care less about that.

coinman23885 · June 12, 2011 9:58AM

<< Warning.............If you click on any of these cobalt blue letters a Legend Market Report will open. It is called a link. If you don't want to read it, I suggest you don't click the link. There will also be some misspelling and even an option to look at inventory if you click a link to the left hand side of the screen. If you don't want to look at the inventory do not click that link. Lets recap. Click the link and read the report if you wish. Don't click the link and the report won't open. Carry on at your own risk

MJ >>

What's with the disclaimer; did someone actually complain before?

TheBigB · June 12, 2011 10:06AM

GENERIC GOLD IS IN SERIOUS TROUBLE

Laura is like a financial analyst signalling a sell well after a stock has bottomed. I have bought raw VF $20 US gold recently for less than bullion.

How much lower do you thing it can go?

roadrunner · June 13, 2011 8:04AM

First, the resurgence can take a long time. For example, just look at Classic Commems.

Second, it pays to think about which coins are legitimately cool and undervalued (and are therefore more likely to come back at some point) and which were simply overpriced cr*p before the market tanked (in which case a revival is less assured).

True. But when it comes to betting on the price of silver to boost MS64-MS66 classic commems, OR gold to boost MS63-MS65 $20 Libs and Saints, I'll bet on the $20's.
I said years ago that when gold gets high enough we will probably see MS64 and possibly even MS65 Saints selling for essentially spot. But we're not close to that point yet.
Of course, $200-300/oz silver might be enough to help push up the prices of the cheapest commens like GWC's, BTW's, etc..... but not the better ones.

The last time it was a good idea to roll out of many better/choice MS/PF US coins into choice generic gold was early 2004. That's when MS64 saints were $635. And even at that time many quality choice and gem rare/scarce US coins were not that all that far from their 2007-2008 peaks.

roadrunner

questor54 · June 13, 2011 10:59AM

For wealth protection, RUN to generic gold. For art appreciation and the joy of owning rare historical objects, keep the coins if you can afford them. When civilization re-emerges from the rubble of the coming decades, someone will appreciate them.

Just my opinion.

Legend Market Report hot off the press

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