<< <i>Off topic perhaps but, I had a coin on my website for $10,900.00 ( still there, haven't had time to remove yet) which was sold last week and is now listed on ebay for $37,000 and on a website for $23,000. >>
<< <i>Off topic perhaps but, I had a coin on my website for $10,900.00 ( still there, haven't had time to remove yet) which was sold last week and is now listed on ebay for $37,000 and on a website for $23,000. >>
Did you crack it out? Is it a problem coin? >>
No problem at all. A rare item too. Look up, oh never mind I'll pm it to you
For anyone else it's RC3059 under civil war coins for sale. Then look it up on the net and on ebay and tell me what you think
<< <i>For some reason, people think I am joking when I insist on the formation of a National Numismatic Commission (NNC) headed by a National Numismatic Czar (NNC) to deal with situations like this and many others. >>
I also think this new commission will need its own paramilitary force for raids on suspected evildoers.
<< <i>For some reason, people think I am joking when I insist on the formation of a National Numismatic Commission (NNC) headed by a National Numismatic Czar (NNC) to deal with situations like this and many others. >>
I also think this new commission will need its own paramilitary force for raids on suspected evildoers. >>
Perhaps, but since all coins would be held by the NNC in the National Numismatic Repository (NNR), there would be no possibility of fraud or evasion. If a collector does not comply with all regulations, taxes, etc., their coins are seized and held 'for the people' in the National Numismatic Stockpile (NNS).
Tom, I take it the ebay guy is who you sold it to? The website image has the serial number photoshopped out of it but it's undoubtedly the same piece. Are you going to pursue this?
<< <i>For some reason, people think I am joking when I insist on the formation of a National Numismatic Commission (NNC) headed by a National Numismatic Czar (NNC) to deal with situations like this and many others. >>
I also think this new commission will need its own paramilitary force for raids on suspected evildoers. >>
Perhaps, but since all coins would be held by the NNC in the National Numismatic Repository (NNR), there would be no possibility of fraud or evasion. If a collector does not comply with all regulations, taxes, etc., their coins are seized and held 'for the people' in the National Numismatic Stockpile (NNS). >>
This is a SERIOUS matter. We need a BLUE RIBBON PANEL to study this. EDIT: and llafoe's opinion wouldn't hurt either.
<< <i>Perhaps, but since all coins would be held by the NNC in the National Numismatic Repository (NNR), there would be no possibility of fraud or evasion. If a collector does not comply with all regulations, taxes, etc., their coins are seized and held 'for the people' in the National Numismatic Stockpile (NNS). >>
Wow, I think a national repository would solve many of the problems we discuss on these forums. Would a National Numismatic Tax (NNT) be needed to fund this project?
<< <i>Perhaps, but since all coins would be held by the NNC in the National Numismatic Repository (NNR), there would be no possibility of fraud or evasion. If a collector does not comply with all regulations, taxes, etc., their coins are seized and held 'for the people' in the National Numismatic Stockpile (NNS). >>
Wow, I think a national repository would solve many of the problems we discuss on these forums. Would a National Numismatic Tax (NNT) be needed to fund this project? >>
<< <i>If I am reading Frank correctly, he is basically saying that the coin has to speak for itself, the potential buyer must be qualified and able to make their own evauation and assessment of a coin before purchase, and the seller cannot be trusted or relied upon to do this work for the seller. Welcome to the real world everybody!
State DMV consumer protection divisions and their AG offices go to great lengths to ensure that salvaged cars from floods, crashes, hail, etc. are identified appropriately so that a future buyer doesn't get screwed when the words "salvage" are removed from a subsquent title or CarFax. In the real world most car buyers can't tell if a car was in a flood or had major repair work completed. And in the real world, a large % of coin buyers can't tell a screwed with coin from a problem-free one. The difference here is that since car buying affects most American families, having laws to protect them and then enforcing them makes sense. The coin market is a non-factor in the real world and basically gets the law of caveat emptor to protect it. But both situations are quite similar otherwise.
roadrunner >>
First rape of a woman, and now this...you guys need to get in the real world. Comparing this to a salvage car that might kill someone because the brake lines are contaminated with mud, or fungus is growing in the upholstery is REALLY a stretch.
These are AUCTIONS, which are different than RETAIL SALES. Consumer protection laws DO NOT APPLY. Typical standard terms for coins will be found in the fine print (and assumed if not specified) similar to this:
All such terms, including adjectival and numerical descriptions of coins and other numismatic items, is an opinion and subjective and not guaranteed, No warranty, whether expressed or implied, is made with respect to such adjectival and numerical descriptions, which can and do vary among experts:nor is any warranty or representation made that any other expert, grading service or other entity will grade a given piece the same, nor is any guarantee or representation made that a coin or other numismatic item has not been cleaned, or that the toning of any item is natural, or that there is the absence of any other defect which would render it unsuitable for encapsulation by any grading service or the acceptance by a third party.
Auction laws often don't even require the item to be genuine! You get what you get, and it's UP TO YOU to investigate, bid appropriately, or better yet NOT BID AT ALL on items that are not certified.
If you don't agree, don't bid. If you go to a real world auction house with all your printouts of your forensic investigations and trying to get lots removed from sale, you will be politely (or not so politely) asked to leave.
You guys can send me all the hate PMs you like ("Well, I know NEVER TO BUY FROM YOU!!!") but I DON'T do this on items I own, but when I receive a raw coin from a consignor, I (nor any other auctioneer) is going to look through thousands of images of past auctions trying to match bagmarks to find something that used to be in a problem slab (or was sold raw, maybe with a problem mentioned --or not) If I think it's been cleaned, it will be described as such.
Hint: there is a reason that there are very few coins in "Problem" slabs offered in auctions. The consignors usually prefer to crack them out and sell them RAW either to bargain hunters or to people who want a sharp coin for a Dansco album.
Buying an expensive raw coin with no return privilege should lead the buyer to EXPECT that it is not slabable. Buy coins in PCGS slabs..and consider NGC, ANACS, and ICG.
I am a licensed auctioneer and have called about 600 numismatic auctions in 20 years, so take my advice or not, but it's what the real world is about. You can use my information to protect yourself -- or not.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
Criminal law certainly does apply and for the record, eBay does not have exclusion clauses such as that described in an earlier post. Indeed, eBay claims not to be an auction house! What it does have is a set of rules with which coin listings must comply.
All the legal aspects of provable fraud with respect to each of the pedigreed listings are present with the coins sold by this seller. A common law fraud case requires only:
The defrauded buyer must be able to first, show seriouscoins made a material representation of the coin that was false (a misrepresentation of the coin's veracity). With pedigree and opinion of the TPG from where the coin was sourced, this is provable from a preponderance of the evidence based on a visual matching of bagmarks and other unique indicators on the coin in the pedigree with the one in the listing. Second, "seriouscoins" knew the representation used as the sales pitch in the description was false. By not disclosing the problem(s) the buyer would be misled. In fact, seriouscoins would have known such was false as evidenced by the occasional subsequent doctoring of the coin(s) to hide the problem(s) noted by the TPG and to enhance the eye-appeal of it. Thirdly, the description was used to induce the buyer to act upon such misdescribing of the coin(s) and purchase it in good faith that the description was an accurate representation of the coin. Fourth, financial injury was caused by the buyer relying on the misdescribed good(s). The buyer has paid far more than the market value for goods that are effectively damaged according to standard market practices as defined by the "coin industry".
It is quite clear the seller has been, and currently is, pocketing the difference in value between a problem coin obtained less expensively and transacting the same without disclosure of what was known at the time of obtaining the coin. Such a sin of comission clearly translates into a higher price obtained where the seller knowingly violates both the eBay coin selling policy required before listing the coin and the generally accepted rules in numismatics, which is to disclose what known salient negative aspects of the coin being offered effect its price.
Whilst it is reasonable for a buyer to exercise reasonable due diligence, in a marketplace where rules require full disclosure, it is egregious to lay all the blame on buyers when the seller is executing well-practised frauds.
In my view the caveat emptor argument has been overworked here and is largely irrelevant in the case of seriouscoins's activities.l
Since you are apparently an attorney, I hope that you will follow up with local law enforcement, or even your SAG office and try to get someone to file. Possibly, even the U.S. AG if you can get the FBI or the Department of the Treasury interested.
Short of that, as an attorney I'm certain that you could file a civil suit, if the injured party is interested in retaining you. I assume that you are not the injured party, but if you were, I'd honestly love to see you file.
Please keep us posted on the progress of the case.
<< <i>Criminal law certainly does apply and for the record, eBay does not have exclusion clauses such as that described in an earlier post. Indeed, eBay claims not to be an auction house! What it does have is a set of rules with which coin listings must comply.
All the legal aspects of provable fraud with respect to each of the pedigreed listings are present with the coins sold by this seller. A common law fraud case requires only:
The defrauded buyer must be able to first, show seriouscoins made a material representation of the coin that was false (a misrepresentation of the coin's veracity). With pedigree and opinion of the TPG from where the coin was sourced, this is provable from a preponderance of the evidence based on a visual matching of bagmarks and other unique indicators on the coin in the pedigree with the one in the listing. Second, "seriouscoins" knew the representation used as the sales pitch in the description was false. By not disclosing the problem(s) the buyer would be misled. In fact, seriouscoins would have known such was false as evidenced by the occasional subsequent doctoring of the coin(s) to hide the problem(s) noted by the TPG and to enhance the eye-appeal of it. Thirdly, the description was used to induce the buyer to act upon such misdescribing of the coin(s) and purchase it in good faith that the description was an accurate representation of the coin. Fourth, financial injury was caused by the buyer relying on the misdescribed good(s). The buyer has paid far more than the market value for goods that are effectively damaged according to standard market practices as defined by the "coin industry".
It is quite clear the seller has been, and currently is, pocketing the difference in value between a problem coin obtained less expensively and transacting the same without disclosure of what was known at the time of obtaining the coin. Such a sin of comission clearly translates into a higher price obtained where the seller knowingly violates both the eBay coin selling policy required before listing the coin and the generally accepted rules in numismatics, which is to disclose what known salient negative aspects of the coin being offered effect its price.
Whilst it is reasonable for a buyer to exercise reasonable due diligence, in a marketplace where rules require full disclosure, it is egregious to lay all the blame on buyers when the seller is executing well-practised frauds.
In my view the caveat emptor argument has been overworked here and is largely irrelevant in the case of seriouscoins's activities.l >>
Cal. small claims ($7500)the plaintiff cannot be represented in court by counsel. My understanding, not fact.
If you got the case to trial, you'd have to prove the chain of custody and establish that seriouscoins bought the coin in question( and not a consignor) while encapsulated with details and the details were sufficient to warrant something be said about them. So you'd have to subpeona all acct info from all the previous sellers or auction houses in different jurisdictions. Joy.
next thing on coins I guess we will see is the complete history of all submission results and rejected green bean results and crackouts and resubmissions on a particular coin because those are also MATERIAL FACTS.
FBI and SAG are working serial killers, terrorism, I.D. theft, Pentagon computer hacking, Illegal alien problems, etc. Now what are the odds seriouscoins makes the list?
Seriouscoins is just a P.T. Barnum wannabee. He should use a picture of that P.T. Barnum commem as his avatar on ebay. He'll resurface with another I.D. soon enough and the charade will continue.
Just curious... Where did small claims enter into the picture?
<< <i>Cal. small claims ($7500)the plaintiff cannot be represented in court by counsel. My understanding, not fact.
If you got the case to trial, you'd have to prove the chain of custody and establish that seriouscoins bought the coin in question( and not a consignor) while encapsulated with details and the details were sufficient to warrant something be said about them. So you'd have to subpeona all acct info from all the previous sellers or auction houses in different jurisdictions. Joy.
next thing on coins I guess we will see is the complete history of all submission results and rejected green bean results and crackouts and resubmissions on a particular coin because those are also MATERIAL FACTS.
FBI and SAG are working serial killers, terrorism, I.D. theft, Pentagon computer hacking, Illegal alien problems, etc. Now what are the odds seriouscoins makes the list?
Seriouscoins is just a P.T. Barnum wannabee. He should use a picture of that P.T. Barnum commem as his avatar on ebay. He'll resurface with another I.D. soon enough and the charade will continue. >>
Comments
<< <i>Off topic perhaps but, I had a coin on my website for $10,900.00 ( still there, haven't had time to remove yet) which was sold last week and is now listed on ebay for $37,000 and on a website for $23,000. >>
Did you crack it out? Is it a problem coin?
<< <i>
<< <i>Off topic perhaps but, I had a coin on my website for $10,900.00 ( still there, haven't had time to remove yet) which was sold last week and is now listed on ebay for $37,000 and on a website for $23,000. >>
Did you crack it out? Is it a problem coin? >>
No problem at all. A rare item too. Look up, oh never mind I'll pm it to you
For anyone else it's RC3059 under civil war coins for sale. Then look it up on the net and on ebay and tell me what you think
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>For some reason, people think I am joking when I insist on the formation of a National Numismatic Commission (NNC) headed by a National Numismatic Czar (NNC) to deal with situations like this and many others. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>For some reason, people think I am joking when I insist on the formation of a National Numismatic Commission (NNC) headed by a National Numismatic Czar (NNC) to deal with situations like this and many others. >>
Perhaps, but since all coins would be held by the NNC in the National Numismatic Repository (NNR), there would be no possibility of fraud or evasion. If a collector does not comply with all regulations, taxes, etc., their coins are seized and held 'for the people' in the National Numismatic Stockpile (NNS).
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>For some reason, people think I am joking when I insist on the formation of a National Numismatic Commission (NNC) headed by a National Numismatic Czar (NNC) to deal with situations like this and many others. >>
Perhaps, but since all coins would be held by the NNC in the National Numismatic Repository (NNR), there would be no possibility of fraud or evasion. If a collector does not comply with all regulations, taxes, etc., their coins are seized and held 'for the people' in the National Numismatic Stockpile (NNS). >>
This is a SERIOUS matter. We need a BLUE RIBBON PANEL to study this. EDIT: and llafoe's opinion wouldn't hurt either.
<< <i>Perhaps, but since all coins would be held by the NNC in the National Numismatic Repository (NNR), there would be no possibility of fraud or evasion. If a collector does not comply with all regulations, taxes, etc., their coins are seized and held 'for the people' in the National Numismatic Stockpile (NNS). >>
Wow, I think a national repository would solve many of the problems we discuss on these forums. Would a National Numismatic Tax (NNT) be needed to fund this project?
<< <i>
<< <i>Perhaps, but since all coins would be held by the NNC in the National Numismatic Repository (NNR), there would be no possibility of fraud or evasion. If a collector does not comply with all regulations, taxes, etc., their coins are seized and held 'for the people' in the National Numismatic Stockpile (NNS). >>
Wow, I think a national repository would solve many of the problems we discuss on these forums. Would a National Numismatic Tax (NNT) be needed to fund this project? >>
Definitely.
<< <i>If I am reading Frank correctly, he is basically saying that the coin has to speak for itself, the potential buyer must be qualified and able to make their own evauation and assessment of a coin before purchase, and the seller cannot be trusted or relied upon to do this work for the seller. Welcome to the real world everybody!
State DMV consumer protection divisions and their AG offices go to great lengths to ensure that salvaged cars from floods, crashes, hail, etc. are identified appropriately so that a future buyer doesn't get screwed when the words "salvage" are removed from a subsquent title or CarFax. In the real world most car buyers can't tell if a car was in a flood or had major repair work completed. And in the real world, a large % of coin buyers can't tell a screwed with coin from a problem-free one. The difference here is that since car buying affects most American families, having laws to protect them and then enforcing them makes sense. The coin market is a non-factor in the real world and basically gets the law of caveat emptor to protect it. But both situations are quite similar otherwise.
roadrunner >>
First rape of a woman, and now this...you guys need to get in the real world. Comparing this to a salvage car that might kill someone because the
brake lines are contaminated with mud, or fungus is growing in the upholstery is REALLY a stretch.
These are AUCTIONS, which are different than RETAIL SALES. Consumer protection laws DO NOT APPLY. Typical standard terms for coins will be found in the fine print (and assumed if not specified) similar to this:
All such terms, including adjectival and numerical descriptions of coins and other numismatic items, is an opinion and subjective and not guaranteed, No warranty, whether expressed or implied, is made with respect to such adjectival and numerical descriptions, which can and do vary among experts:nor is any warranty or representation made that any other expert, grading service or other entity will grade a given piece the same, nor is any guarantee or representation made that a coin or other numismatic item has not been cleaned, or that the toning of any item is natural, or that there is the absence of any other defect which would render it unsuitable for encapsulation by any grading service or the acceptance by a third party.
Auction laws often don't even require the item to be genuine! You get what you get, and it's UP TO YOU to investigate, bid appropriately, or better
yet NOT BID AT ALL on items that are not certified.
If you don't agree, don't bid. If you go to a real world auction house with all your printouts of your forensic investigations and trying to get lots
removed from sale, you will be politely (or not so politely) asked to leave.
You guys can send me all the hate PMs you like ("Well, I know NEVER TO BUY FROM YOU!!!") but I DON'T do this on items I own, but when I
receive a raw coin from a consignor, I (nor any other auctioneer) is going to look through thousands of images of past auctions trying to
match bagmarks to find something that used to be in a problem slab (or was sold raw, maybe with a problem mentioned --or not) If I think
it's been cleaned, it will be described as such.
Hint: there is a reason that there are very few coins in "Problem" slabs offered in auctions. The consignors usually prefer to crack them out
and sell them RAW either to bargain hunters or to people who want a sharp coin for a Dansco album.
Buying an expensive raw coin with no return privilege should lead the buyer to EXPECT that it is not slabable. Buy coins in
PCGS slabs..and consider NGC, ANACS, and ICG.
I am a licensed auctioneer and have called about 600 numismatic auctions in 20 years, so take my advice or not, but
it's what the real world is about. You can use my information to protect yourself -- or not.
<< <i>
<< <i> If I think it's been cleaned, it will be described as such.
>>
There you go, you just differentiated yourself from the crooked seller
All the legal aspects of provable fraud with respect to each of the pedigreed listings are present with the coins sold by this seller. A common law fraud case requires only:
The defrauded buyer must be able to first, show seriouscoins made a material representation of the coin that was false (a misrepresentation of the coin's veracity). With pedigree and opinion of the TPG from where the coin was sourced, this is provable from a preponderance of the evidence based on a visual matching of bagmarks and other unique indicators on the coin in the pedigree with the one in the listing. Second, "seriouscoins" knew the representation used as the sales pitch in the description was false. By not disclosing the problem(s) the buyer would be misled. In fact, seriouscoins would have known such was false as evidenced by the occasional subsequent doctoring of the coin(s) to hide the problem(s) noted by the TPG and to enhance the eye-appeal of it. Thirdly, the description was used to induce the buyer to act upon such misdescribing of the coin(s) and purchase it in good faith that the description was an accurate representation of the coin. Fourth, financial injury was caused by the buyer relying on the misdescribed good(s). The buyer has paid far more than the market value for goods that are effectively damaged according to standard market practices as defined by the "coin industry".
It is quite clear the seller has been, and currently is, pocketing the difference in value between a problem coin obtained less expensively and transacting the same without disclosure of what was known at the time of obtaining the coin. Such a sin of comission clearly translates into a higher price obtained where the seller knowingly violates both the eBay coin selling policy required before listing the coin and the generally accepted rules in numismatics, which is to disclose what known salient negative aspects of the coin being offered effect its price.
Whilst it is reasonable for a buyer to exercise reasonable due diligence, in a marketplace where rules require full disclosure, it is egregious to lay all the blame on buyers when the seller is executing well-practised frauds.
In my view the caveat emptor argument has been overworked here and is largely irrelevant in the case of seriouscoins's activities.l
Short of that, as an attorney I'm certain that you could file a civil suit, if the injured party is interested in retaining you. I assume that you are not the injured party, but if you were, I'd honestly love to see you file.
Please keep us posted on the progress of the case.
<< <i>Criminal law certainly does apply and for the record, eBay does not have exclusion clauses such as that described in an earlier post. Indeed, eBay claims not to be an auction house! What it does have is a set of rules with which coin listings must comply.
All the legal aspects of provable fraud with respect to each of the pedigreed listings are present with the coins sold by this seller. A common law fraud case requires only:
The defrauded buyer must be able to first, show seriouscoins made a material representation of the coin that was false (a misrepresentation of the coin's veracity). With pedigree and opinion of the TPG from where the coin was sourced, this is provable from a preponderance of the evidence based on a visual matching of bagmarks and other unique indicators on the coin in the pedigree with the one in the listing. Second, "seriouscoins" knew the representation used as the sales pitch in the description was false. By not disclosing the problem(s) the buyer would be misled. In fact, seriouscoins would have known such was false as evidenced by the occasional subsequent doctoring of the coin(s) to hide the problem(s) noted by the TPG and to enhance the eye-appeal of it. Thirdly, the description was used to induce the buyer to act upon such misdescribing of the coin(s) and purchase it in good faith that the description was an accurate representation of the coin. Fourth, financial injury was caused by the buyer relying on the misdescribed good(s). The buyer has paid far more than the market value for goods that are effectively damaged according to standard market practices as defined by the "coin industry".
It is quite clear the seller has been, and currently is, pocketing the difference in value between a problem coin obtained less expensively and transacting the same without disclosure of what was known at the time of obtaining the coin. Such a sin of comission clearly translates into a higher price obtained where the seller knowingly violates both the eBay coin selling policy required before listing the coin and the generally accepted rules in numismatics, which is to disclose what known salient negative aspects of the coin being offered effect its price.
Whilst it is reasonable for a buyer to exercise reasonable due diligence, in a marketplace where rules require full disclosure, it is egregious to lay all the blame on buyers when the seller is executing well-practised frauds.
In my view the caveat emptor argument has been overworked here and is largely irrelevant in the case of seriouscoins's activities.l >>
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
If you got the case to trial, you'd have to prove the chain of custody and establish that seriouscoins bought the coin in question( and not a consignor) while encapsulated with details and the details were sufficient to warrant something be said about them. So you'd have to subpeona all acct info from all the previous sellers or auction houses in different jurisdictions. Joy.
next thing on coins I guess we will see is the complete history of all submission results and rejected green bean results and crackouts and resubmissions on a particular coin because those are also MATERIAL FACTS.
FBI and SAG are working serial killers, terrorism, I.D. theft, Pentagon computer hacking, Illegal alien problems, etc. Now what are the odds seriouscoins makes the list?
Seriouscoins is just a P.T. Barnum wannabee. He should use a picture of that P.T. Barnum commem as his avatar on ebay. He'll resurface with another I.D. soon enough and the charade will continue.
<< <i>Cal. small claims ($7500)the plaintiff cannot be represented in court by counsel. My understanding, not fact.
If you got the case to trial, you'd have to prove the chain of custody and establish that seriouscoins bought the coin in question( and not a consignor) while encapsulated with details and the details were sufficient to warrant something be said about them. So you'd have to subpeona all acct info from all the previous sellers or auction houses in different jurisdictions. Joy.
next thing on coins I guess we will see is the complete history of all submission results and rejected green bean results and crackouts and resubmissions on a particular coin because those are also MATERIAL FACTS.
FBI and SAG are working serial killers, terrorism, I.D. theft, Pentagon computer hacking, Illegal alien problems, etc. Now what are the odds seriouscoins makes the list?
Seriouscoins is just a P.T. Barnum wannabee. He should use a picture of that P.T. Barnum commem as his avatar on ebay. He'll resurface with another I.D. soon enough and the charade will continue. >>
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1