To colonial collectors: What do you collect?

PutTogether · May 16, 2011 12:52PM

I'm curious to know how different people collect colonials. What 'sets' or goals do you try to complete? The avenues seem endless, the learning curve steep, but it sure looks like fun. It also looks like a nice respite from fretting about grades as well.

Still, I'm curious how most people collect. Random smattering? A certain coin by die variety? All connecticut/vermont, etc? Redbook types?

What do you aim to purchase....and why?

llafoe · May 16, 2011 1:03PM

<< I'm curious to know how different people collect colonials. >>

Well, if the same person collected them all...

MidLifeCrisis · May 16, 2011 1:08PM

I am building a type set because I like all things colonial.

But there are plenty who collect specific coins by die variety. New Jersey Coppers and Fugios are very popular coins to collect this way.

The main problem with die variety collecting is that some varieties are very rare and, therefore, very expensive.

A lot of people stick with coins listed in the Red Book.

But you have to decide what you're most interested in. Hibernia coinage, French Colonies coinage, Massachusetts silver, state coppers, Washingtonia...all are good choices and there are many others.

ColonialCoinUnion · May 16, 2011 1:09PM

To each his or her own.

We have customers who collect major colonial types, or particular series which are of special interest to them, or by die variety and even by die state (and some do all of the above!).

TexasNationals · May 16, 2011 1:11PM

I buy what I see and like, last purchase was a PCGS XF-40 Kentucky, before that a VF Fugio, before that several Washington's, before Connecticut was my focus with a swish smash of Hibernia's this and that and Conders. Whatever floats my wagon.

OchoReales · May 16, 2011 1:13PM

Spanish Colonial 1/4 Reales to 8 Escudos (with my focus on Potosi, Bolivia). All denominations by type except 8 Reales (by date and variety). AU to Mint State. Not for the weak at heart!

Edited to add; One day I WILL branch out to US Colonial as well!

TexasNationals · May 16, 2011 1:16PM

Oh, Mexico too, yep have all those, Pillar 8 reales, 4 reales, reales, heck I even have a Texas Jola 1818 and 1817, both legit as they get! I am a Texas collector so didn't even think of Spanish and Mexico coinage, paper and gold finger bars.

Edit: Also a nice collection of Bolivian Escudo's and X demon reales. Still blows me away you can buy some of this history UNDER melt, hum a 2003 1/10 AGE (at melt + $30) or 1734 Escudo ( at melt -2%)

TN

TPRC · May 16, 2011 1:21PM

"A lot of people stick with coins listed in the Red Book."

That would be me...by type and in xf+. But because of expense, I tend to have the more common ones and have not yet really made an expensive purchase on a colonial coin, like an xf well-struck and well-centered Vermontensium with a smooth planchet, for example, or a well struck Connecticut. But all will come in time.

HoledandCreative · May 16, 2011 2:37PM

One of everything, preferably holed.

TomB · May 16, 2011 2:41PM

I buy pieces that I like and that fall within what I am willing to pay for the coin.

NewEnglandRarities · May 16, 2011 3:52PM

<< To each his or her own. >>

This is very true. The great thing about collecting colonials is that there are so many different ways to collect them. I started out collecting NJ by die variety, then switched to Vermonts and St. Patrick coinage, then to colonial type.

BillyKingsley · May 16, 2011 3:57PM

I'd like to be able to get at least one. Have not found one in my price range yet. Currently that's about $20, on occasion I can stretch it to 50...about once a year. Being poor isn't much fun.

Edit to say: It needs to be identifieble. If it's just a brown disk that may once have been a colonial, I really don't think that counts, lol.

MidLifeCrisis · May 16, 2011 9:46PM

The neat thing about colonials is that that they are all interesting; all relevant to early American history; and all have a "story to tell".

Some colonials can be obtained in relatively high grade. Often they are very expensive, but not always. Of course, everything is relative and I don't know your budget...but a high grade 1773 Virginia Halfpenny, for example, is a pretty cool thing to have regardless of what else you decide to focus on.

BillJones · May 16, 2011 10:43PM

I collect colonial types although in some cases it involves no more than a "sample" piece from each series. For example I have one Vermont landscape. I don't have one of the pieces with a head on it, and probably won't be looking for one any time soon. On the other hand, I'd like to find a Massachusetts silver three pence and six pence, perhaps both the Oak Tree and Pine Tree types.

Massachusetts silver was the most significant issue of coins produced in the English colonies prior to the opening of the United States mint. These coins were produced for 30 years, and they had an important impact on the colonial economy. They also have a very interesting history.

As for collecting by die varieties as many serious colonial collectors do, all I can say is "Been there, done that" with half cents, and I really don't want to go down that frustrating road again. You get so far and then you hit a brick wall. It is impossible to penetrate, climb or walk around that wall.

lcoopie · May 16, 2011 10:50PM

"I buy pieces that I like and that fall within what I am willing to pay for the coin."

my guideline for numismatics precisely

(no colonials yet)

MidLifeCrisis · May 17, 2011 12:04PM

You could also consider collecting the many types of foreign coins that circulated in early America. Many are inexpensive and very interesting. But they are not all found in the Red Book or even known by most US collectors.

NewEnglandRarities · May 17, 2011 12:29PM

<< You could also consider collecting the many types of foreign coins that circulated in early America. Many are inexpensive and very interesting. But they are not all found in the Red Book or even known by most US collectors. >>

Very true statement MLC. In my mind, it is a very underrated area of numismatics!

kaz · May 17, 2011 12:44PM

I am trying to collect colonial/states issues by types. I prefer them circulated, but with major details intact. I like the wear on them, the fact that they passed through many hands yet survived destruction. The planchet flaws and other "problems" add character to these coins, for me at least. I will say this: it is hard to stop at just 1 Fugio or Nova. How about a photo of one of my mangy survivors?

(the hole is the remnant of a planchet inclusion that evidently dissolved while the coin was in the ground)

NewEnglandRarities · May 17, 2011 1:05PM

Nice early die state example of the Vermont RR-2. This variety normally comes with terrible flaws and major problems. Here is a photo of the latest (terminal) die state. When sold by Stacks, this piece was described as VF35. It really is that grade, just nothing left of the die. Notice the "tornado" die break going through the date and plow.

ambro51 · May 17, 2011 1:07PM

Those Vermont Coppers are becoming VERY appealing to me!

Might very well be the next road I travel.

NewEnglandRarities · May 17, 2011 1:11PM

<< Those Vermont Coppers are becoming VERY appealing to me!

Might very well be the next road I travel. >>

Very fun series. I have two customers that only collect Vermont Landscapes, and both do not own a Vermont Bust type. In fact, one of the collectors has 13 regular issue Landscapes (there are 7 regular issue varieties and 2 counterfeits). He is collecting by variety and die state.

bidask · May 17, 2011 1:12PM

Do you think gold guineas traded in the colonies?

kaz · May 17, 2011 1:20PM

Do you think gold guineas traded in the colonies?

No doubt they did. How yours remained unhandled for 250+ years is a mystery..... beautiful!

It occurs to me that the planter class in the south rarely handled hard money; they generally bought on credit (and ran up humongous debts, like TJ and GW)

NewEnglandRarities · May 17, 2011 1:20PM

Hey Bidask,

Just my opinion, I do not think yours circulated in the American colonies

We did not have much gold at that time, so I think a lot of foreign gold circulated during the colonial period. Certainly any gold was valuable and most likely circulated during the colonial period. Of course regulated gold is a sure bet for circulation.

ambro51 · May 17, 2011 1:21PM

Would Breens Encyclopedia be a good place to start studying the Vermont Coppers, or could you suggest another reference?

NewEnglandRarities · May 17, 2011 1:29PM

<< Would Breens Encyclopedia be a good place to start studying the Vermont Coppers, or could you suggest another reference? >>

Breen's Encyclopedia is a good start. I would also check out the Notre Dame website Notre Dame. Also, Tony Carlotto (which is quoted at the Notre Dame website) wrote a fantastic book on Vermont coppers, published by C4, is a fantastic reference. If you have a copy of the John Ford sale Part 1 by Stacks, it is also a great source for Vermont coppers.

ColonialCoinUnion · May 17, 2011 1:36PM

I think you will find most of what you want for free on the Notre Dame site, including cool old stuff like this:

MidLifeCrisis · May 17, 2011 1:38PM

NER and CCU are quicker than me. I'll post my response anyway!

Breen’s Encyclopedia is a good place to start for any US colonial or federal coin But I wouldn’t stop there.

For Vermont Coppers, I’d get a copy of
- Stack’s October 2003 Auction of the John Ford Collection Part 1 (he had over a dozen Landscape pieces)

- Bowers and Merena’s November-December 2001 Auction of the Dr. Robert I. Hinkley collection (sold as part of the Phillip Flannagan catalog). Dr. Hinkley’s collection of Vermont Coppers was extensive with about 120 pieces in 31 different varieties. Not sure how many were Landscape pieces, but many were.

- The Whitman Encyclopedia of Colonial and Early American Coins. Good general reference for all things colonial.

ambro51 · May 17, 2011 1:41PM

Yes, I fully appreciate the value of auction catalogs. Breen is in my Library so its the easiest to use. (well, not Breen himself)_

ColonialCoinUnion · May 17, 2011 1:42PM

You could take a road trip to the Bennington Museum in Bennington, Vermont and actually see some of the coins in that old Richard Picker photofile. It was worth the trip!

ambro51 · May 17, 2011 1:46PM

When my Wife gets her Porsche well do just that!

Trime · May 17, 2011 6:43PM

Colonials have a special place in US Collections because of their historical interest. I collect for quality of piece, scarcity, historical importance, and value.
Might describe as Top Type Early Americana.

novacaesarea · May 25, 2011 2:26PM

Hi bidask,

While some Guinnea surely made their way here, for the most part Great Briton ran a merchantile economy with the Colonies and tried to keep as little gold and silver here as possible. In contrast you would see a fair amount of Latin American Gold ...2 Escudos and Half Joes and a bit of French Merltons, but not much English.

John Kraljevech wrote an article about this I think in the Numismatist in the last few years. It is a nice informative read.

I collect everything that circulated in the Colonies and States from Jamestown to Jefferson by type and sometimes variety, Washingtonia, Washington Inaugural Buttons and Betts Medals.

Best,

novacaesarea

Bochiman · May 25, 2011 3:10PM

I have a terrific focus on this.....ask MidLifeCrisis

I collect what strikes me, at the time it strikes me, and buy from CRO

I do like to stay with MASS stuff though, for personal reasons and because I think the design is better than the others.
I also want nice pieces (see the above "buy from CRO" comment)

Zoins · May 25, 2011 3:14PM

<< While some Guinnea surely made their way here, for the most part Great Briton ran a merchantile economy with the Colonies and tried to keep as little gold and silver here as possible. In contrast you would see a fair amount of Latin American Gold ...2 Escudos and Half Joes and a bit of French Merltons, but not much English.

John Kraljevech wrote an article about this I think in the Numismatist in the last few years. It is a nice informative read.

I collect everything that circulated in the Colonies and States from Jamestown to Jefferson by type and sometimes variety, Washingtonia, Washington Inaugural Buttons and Betts Medals.

Best,

novacaesarea >>

Thanks for the history novacaesarea. It's interesting that restricting gold and silver export was not only part of British policy and colonialism in general, but helped drive colonialism.

I checked out the Wikipedia page on mercantilism which lists a ban on exporting gold and silver under mercantilist policies:

<< * high tariffs, especially on manufactured goods
* monopolizing markets with staple ports
* exclusive trade with colonies
* forbidding certain trade to be carried in foreign ships
* export subsidies
* banning the export of gold and silver, even for payments
* promoting manufacturing with research or direct subsidies
* limiting wages
* maximizing the use of domestic resources
* restricting domestic consumption with non-tariff barriers to trade >>

natetrook · May 25, 2011 11:33PM

hi i like pie

novacaesarea · May 26, 2011 2:24PM

CCU, That Ryder 9 is amazing. All 4 Wheat Sheafs. Is that the one that made its way into the Sandy Partridge Collection?

Best,

novacaesarea

Bochiman · May 26, 2011 2:30PM

Latest purchase
Does this count as "Colonial" for ya?

If so, then this is what I collect

ColonialCoinUnion · May 26, 2011 8:24PM

<< CCU, That Ryder 9 is amazing. All 4 Wheat Sheafs. Is that the one that made its way into the Sandy Partridge Collection?

Best,

novacaesarea >>

That's the one.

Laird · August 31, 2011 6:20AM

Yes I realize this thread is six months old, but since I'm new here, what the heck. I have found myself collecting Connecticuts, mainly by accident, but I'm hooked. I am actually "setting"the '87 the snipe-nose (33.28 with a couple reverses). I have cheaply aquired (I am a low end collector) 2 of the 3 known varieties, but also have a snipe is isn't listed anywhere (and I've looked), so I guess I'll continue with the '87's and figure out what to do with this "unique". Until then I'll try and pick up anything before 1790 I can find.

mrearlygold · August 31, 2011 9:26AM

Across a wide spectrum from NJ's in fine to some finest known others* .

( *customers of mine )

ambro51 · August 31, 2011 11:03AM

I just cant seem to comprehend the wide scope of the Conneticut coppers, what with 340 or so varieties! Yikes! to 'do that series' Wow, what an undertaking in both numismatic acquisition and numismatic education.
.... I like the thought of the Rustic Rupert Vermont Mint....rather than the undertaking with Machins Mills, where many later, and many very rare, Vermonts were struck.

Still waiting on a NewP Ryder 10 to come in from Canada (geez I hope it wasnt lost in a post office flooding or such between Montreal and south jersey) the Bust Left coins show a great link with the Ct. issues and Abel Buell, but bear the hallmark of the worst planchets of the group of post landscape coppers. I recently got in this fantastic Ryder 11, a rare example struck on a problem free copper planchet!

TPRC · September 1, 2011 12:50AM

"Problem Free!" C'mon Ambro....that is not a problem free planchet. It might be "relatively problem free for the variety" or "better than most," I don't know, but it is not a "problem free" planchet. Still, and as always, I admire your new-found interest in these fascinating coins and I always read your posts.

ambro51 · September 1, 2011 3:21AM

I appreciate your candor.

I also challenge you to find me images of better planchet examples of Ryder 11.

These later Rupert Mint coins, RR9 to RR15 were made from 'something' and due to poor smelting, or something, nearly every specimen of any of these varieties has some type of planchet 'issue'. This piece has smooth surfaces, non porous, which puts it ahead of 80 percent out there. no big voids, no fissures....really it is a superior planchet for the coin. Also, the metal is more in the 'coppery' look rather than the brassy look.

One of the reasons these coins look the way they do is that the die itself was 31.5 mm across when all the dentils are measured, from multiple overlays of several coins. The coins themselves, though, are usually about 27 mm. So, you can never really get all the 'stuff' in, date, legends, dentils....all take their turn being well struck and strong. This coin has one large plus, and one negative, in that VERMON is strong and prominent but the date is not fully on the small planchet.

Each of these is different like a fingerprint. estimate survival is 150

PCGS Coinfacts has little information on this piece. what they DO say about Ryder 10 can very well be applied to this coin as well.

after you read this, consider the planchet quality of this piece again...

1786 VERMONT COPPER -
RYDER 10

PCGS No: 551

Rarity: Very Scarce

Variety equivalents:
Breen 715, Crosby 2-A, Breen-Bressett 8-G

Notes:
This was the only use of the obverse die.

This was the only use of the reverse die.

Breen called this variety "R-5" in the 1975 EAC Pine Tree Sale. Bressett estimates the number extant to be 60-70 pieces. The true number is probably closer to 100 or more (a Vermont specialist once showed me over a dozen nice examples of this variety).

On the surface, Bressett's Condition Census of 20-12 appears to be somewhat low. The principal objections to the Census are raised by collectors who own some nicely detailed early states. Almost invariably, however, the Ryder 10 comes with significant detractions such as planchet voids, granularity, porosity, undersized planchets, poor centering, etc. The Ryder 10 is seldom found nice and examples on glossy, brown planchets are incredibly rare. Thus, Bressett's average grade of 12 for the second through the sixth finest known examples is reasonable, although the finest known example would probably have a net grade in the 30-40 range.

Observed weight range: 101.6 to 123.2 grains

Die states:
Early examples show strong legends and reasonably sharp design details (see Bressett plate coin). Well struck early examples infrequently show a single wheat sheaf on the reverse (see Picker and EAC '75). Late states show a fin crack running upwards from the E in VERMON into the left obverse field. Design definition suffers on later issues.

Laird · September 3, 2011 10:15AM

Regardless of the planchet thats a spankin nice Vermont.

To colonial collectors: What do you collect?

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