36 Buffalo Proof and 36 Buffalo MS -- The Differences
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Well, I think I can tell the difference between a proof and a business strike but on Buffalos, it is not always straightforward, particularly when the business strike has a full strike. Look at the following two coins and give diagnostics/reasons why it's easy to tell that one is a proof and the other a business strike.
Here they are:
and
The date and "LIBERTY" are slightly more squared off, for one thing (or at least I've convinced myself of that).
Thanks, Todd, for the images.
Here they are:
and
The date and "LIBERTY" are slightly more squared off, for one thing (or at least I've convinced myself of that).
Thanks, Todd, for the images.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
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Comments
<< <i>the location of "Black Diamond's" head in relation to the rim of the coin. >>
Headbutting the rim!
By way of comparison, here's my 36 satin proof in NGC 67 -- a coin I've found virtually impossible to image capturing luster and color at the same time:
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This is my Satin proof Buff graded 67 by PCGS and in hand there's no question it is a proof coin. It can be hard to tell with some business strikes especially the 36 brilliant proof coins, these are the toughest in my opinion to tell the difference between the proofs and the business strikes. Proof coins will most always have sharp rims inside and outside. Another diagnostic feature on proofs is the absence of die polishing striations and erosion lines. The absence of these flaws does not guarantee that a coin is a proof but the presence makes proof attribution a suspect.....Joe
By the way, here is my Brilliant 36, which is a lot more unmistakeably a proof (no headbutt):
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
<< <i>Hey, Joe, I like yours (and Mike's as well). Interesting that both of those proofs are more readily identifiable as such than mine, at least based on these images. Also, the headbutt that Keets points out (which I've never noticed before) does not seem as apparent in Mike's or Joe's.
By the way, here is my Brilliant 36, which is a lot more unmistakeably a proof (no headbutt):
I love your coin there buddy! Your right no mistaking this coin for anything but a proof. But there are tricks a guy can play and if your not on top of your game you can get burned. Great post....Joe
Here's another head butt proof...
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
Obverse diagnostic:
Reverse diagnostic:
<< <i>Below are a couple of TrueView close-up images of a 1936 Satin Proof. The coin is a high end piece from the Forsythe Collection. Notice the die lines. From my experience, neither the ’36 Brilliant Proof nor the ’36 mint state pieces have these or many other specific diagnostics that seem to be specific to the ’36 Satin. But I’m wondering if anyone knows whether the Proof dies in 1936 were used to stamp the mint state coins after the Proofs were complete? Any information would be invaluable. Thanks. Duane
Obverse diagnostic:
Reverse diagnostic:
The proof dies were almost certainly used for business strikes after they were no longer suitable for proof production-this has been done many times before and many times since for all denominations and types of U.S. coins.
Duane
The diagnosis: Buffaloitis.
The symptoms: Longing to own a proof Buffalo.
The cure: Go buy one!
<< <i>Thanks. That is exactly what I'm trying to establish. When I did the research/writing on the Matte Proof Lincoln series, I could not find any evidence of Proof dies being used on mint state coins. But this appears to be different with the Buffs, and I have found some circulation strikes with Proof-like diagnostics (however, only on really hammered MS specimens). But I cannot find support for this anywhere. David Lange makes a brief mention of this 'known' fact in his work, but I've found no support for this fact. Can you point me in the right direction? Thanks, Duane >>
Hi Duane, My comments were almost a quote from David W. Lange out of his book "The Complete Guide to Buffalo Nickels" If you notice the image of my Satin proof you'll see some die polishing lines above the Buffalo. I believe Mr. Lange is referring to "many" die polishing line as seen on so many business stikes. I have never seen any die erosion lines on the proof I have handled nor have I heard of such a thing. As far as using the proof dies for making business strikes, I've have read somewhere they did. I don't know how a guy would be able to tell one way or another. But I'll tell ya this, I have purchased a 1913 type 1 Buffalo nickel that I would swear was a proof but was not
It's funny that you mention the 1913 T1 as your example, as I also have seen a PCGS mint state 1913 T1 with specific die lines that closely resemble the die lines on the '13 T1 Proof issues. The mint state 1913 has a magnificent strike (it’s a high end MS67), and in-hand looks like a Proof. But when you study the surfaces under a 10x loupe, you can see that they are visibly different than the surfaces of a '13 Matte Proof - not as 'pebbly' and the rims are not as deeply 'squared' on the mint state example. So that would indicate to me that perhaps the Proof dies were in fact used the make the circulation pieces as well, like has been stated. Maybe the Proofs were struck more than once, and that’s why the details are brought out in greater detail.
But I agree that differentiation of the two can be very, very tough! Thanks for taking the time to answer. Regards, Duane
One of the keys to matte and satin proofs is the examination of the rims and edges. As for intentionally using proof dies for business strikes the Type "B" quarters are one good example. Most of these are far too common to have been produced by accident.
Perhaps Roger Burdette could elaborate further on this.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
<< <i>Thanks for the post guys! Know I know what has been bothering me for a while now. LOL
The diagnosis: Buffaloitis.
The symptoms: Longing to own a proof Buffalo.
The cure: Go buy one! >>
Yes-I've been a victim of this malady for 50 years now.
In all honesty, I would have stated the first coin was a business strike based on the image.
This series is probably the most difficult to differentiate between proofs and strikes. Several years ago I purchased a T1 with a monster strike on Teletrade that NGC graded as a business strike. I personally thought it was a proof, but most of the members here believed it was properly diagnosed by NGC. After cracking it out and sending it to PCGS, it came back PROOF! And yet I still am not 100% sure.
- Bob -
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Just saw your post. For proof Buffalos, I think I can tell in hand, largely by looking at the date and lettering and looking for the squared off outline. But let's just say I don't have enough confidence to buy a purported Buffalo proof raw, although if it's raw, I should be able to get a better look at a coin's rims.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.