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Find of the year ! Original coin Dies.
Zohar
Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭
This is one of these purchases that make the year and the overall hobby so enjoyable.
When collecting coins, and in my specific case, Talers, one always wonders how these were minted, seeking a connection between the actual coin to the minting venue, technology of the time, and press. As part of my ongoing quest for new Talers, I was able to purchase a pair of screw press coin dies, obverse and reverse of a fabulous German Taler design. Die condition is phenomenal with little wear and lovely toning. The coin depicts Nurnberg's city view and on the reverse, the and the bust of Emperor Ferdinand II.
1629 Nurnberg Taler
DAV: 5644
Emperor Ferdinand II (1617-1637)
Mint Official mint mark (B)
Mint Official : Hans Christoph Lauer
Years at Mint : 1619-1639
Who knows, maybe this Taler came out of this die? Probably not, yet it is fun imagining it did.
When collecting coins, and in my specific case, Talers, one always wonders how these were minted, seeking a connection between the actual coin to the minting venue, technology of the time, and press. As part of my ongoing quest for new Talers, I was able to purchase a pair of screw press coin dies, obverse and reverse of a fabulous German Taler design. Die condition is phenomenal with little wear and lovely toning. The coin depicts Nurnberg's city view and on the reverse, the and the bust of Emperor Ferdinand II.
1629 Nurnberg Taler
DAV: 5644
Emperor Ferdinand II (1617-1637)
Mint Official mint mark (B)
Mint Official : Hans Christoph Lauer
Years at Mint : 1619-1639
Who knows, maybe this Taler came out of this die? Probably not, yet it is fun imagining it did.
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Are these the original 17th Century dies?
8 Reales Madness Collection
To be so perfectly preserved, these must have been kept dry and away from oxygen somehow. I know the Soho mint kept their dies in barrels of fat, yet they still rusted.
Any idea how these were stored to survive in such pristine condition?
pruebas - I need to really figure out how to store these and avoid oxidation. They are quite heavy as a pair.
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
It's just that I got my PCGS grades.
<< <i>Thanks guys.
pruebas - I need to really figure out how to store these and avoid oxidation. They are quite heavy as a pair. >>
Zohar,
Store in cloth bags/wrappings used to store Sterling Silver flatwear or the bags you store handguns in... Kleen-bore storage bags
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
What a fascinating addition! That is by far the coolest purchase you have shared from the last couple of years. I have trouble imagining how they survived without mutilation over the years.
A little info. for you. There were many types of presses used. There were drop presses, roll presses, rocker presses, punch presses and scerw presses. The screw press did not reach central Europe untill a Swedish inventor set one up in Hungary in 1710. Hungary had up to 18 presses working at the Kremnitz mint by the mid 1700's. Also, the Vienna mint had screw presses by the mid 1700's. I have emailed you a pic of the Nurenberg press from the 17th century. You can see a die within the press.
WINS Member
<< <i>Thanks guys.
pruebas - I need to really figure out how to store these and avoid oxidation. They are quite heavy as a pair. >>
Use a good gun oil on them, and put them in a cloth. They will rust very easily if not wiped down after handling them.
WINS Member
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
Would it be safe to keep the oiled dies in a safe deposit box with coins?
When it's time to remove the oil, perhaps for an exhibit, what would be the best way to do it?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Use a good gun oil on them, and put them in a cloth.
Would it be safe to keep the oiled dies in a safe deposit box with coins?
When it's time to remove the oil, perhaps for an exhibit, what would be the best way to do it? >>
The dies will be covered in a cloth and enclosed in plastic bag. The coins should be safe. I know that Zohars coins are slabed.
To remove the oil, I would just wipe the dies with a cloth to remove most of it.
WINS Member
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
<< <i>Who is offering to help cut the blanks? >>
The Chinese. The more we order, the cheaper.
Superb find.
myEbay
DPOTD 3
So after much consternation, I have finally arrived at what I feel precisely describes my admiration: DAYUM!
Congratulations on the find of the Year!!
Wow, Z, what an amazing pick-up!!!!!!
8 Reales Madness Collection
3Mark
As you can see, this roller dies shaft has the so called machining lines.
To read just about the Screw Press, than go to the bottom of the post to the part called : more indepth info. on the screw press.
Around the year 1551 in Germany, the Roller Press was invented. For its time, it was very sophisticated. They invented a device that would flatten metal and stretch it using to parallel rollers. These flatten strips would be flattened to the thickness it need to be for the denomination of the coinage that was to be struck. After that process was completed, there was a set of Rollers with the obverse dies on one Roller, and the reverse dies on the other. The strip of metal was then feed in-between the Rollers. This photo is of a Roller Press with dies. There were 13 Mints in Europe using the Roller Press during the mid to late 1500’s. The Mints were in Germany, England, France, Austria, Switzerland and Poland.
Photo of Hall Roller Press
By the end of the 16th century, other types of Minting Presses were invented. One of the Presses was called the Taschenwerk (Rocker Press), and it was used by the smaller mints in Europe.
This is a photo of a Rocker Press
Rocker Press Dies
During the early to mid 17th century (1600’s), the Flywheel (Screw Press) starts to be used in European Mints. Two or more minting techniques would used at the smaller mints throughout Europe during the 17th century (1600’s).
Photo of an early Nurenberg Screw Presses
More indepth info. on the Screw Press:
The early modern period witnessed probably the most dramatic change in methods of coin production. Around 1550, the German silversmith Marx Schwab invented coining with the screw press. The novelty was that two heavy iron screws pressed the coin metal to the desired thickness. The preparation of blanks was aided by roller-mills with produced uniformly thick strips from which the blanks could be cut with metal punches. Henri II (1547-1559) imported the new machines: rolling mill, punch and screw press. 8 to 12 men took over from each other every quarter of an hour to manoeuvre the arms driving the screw which struck the medals. Henri II came up against hostility on the part of the coin makers, so the process was only to be used for coins of small value, medals and tokens. In 1645 it came into general use for minting coins.
There were a number of ways in which the actual coin-striking process itself could be mechanised. One involved the use of dies with curved faces either striking individual blanks (the rockerpress), or striking onto strips of metal passed between paired rollers each engraved with several dies (the rotary press). From small hand driven presses, the development passed via falling hammer presses and water driven hammer works to spindle presses. In the Tirol city of Hall the first horse-powered coin-striking machine was developed and as early as 1600, Nicolo Grosso used a spindle press in Florence, with which he punched coin blanks from rolled sheets of precious metals. This technique is still in use today, albeit with high capacity punching presses which produce large numbers of blanks with one stroke. The permanent refinement of analysis and measuring techniques, the accuracy of weight and alloy composition were vastly improved.
As to Zohars dies, he bought them from a very trusted German dealer. I'm only in my 4th year of learning the minting process of the 16th to 18th century. I've been a collector of Talers for over 30yrs. I have in my collection German Talers that were minted on screw presses from the 1600's. Zohar has a City View 1641 that he got from me that has been graded NGC AU55 that was minted on the Screw Press. He got the Taler from me as a Raw piece. Zohar has a good knowledge base of knowing what was minted on a Roll Press and what has been minted on a Screw Press. I have sent a photo of his dies to a family member of mine in Germany to do checking on the dies for him.
WINS Member
For reference, here is the 1641 Augsburg piece minted using a screw press.
Additional info, the dies are made from cast iron, weigh 1 kilo or so, and do resemble the ones seen at this press:
If indeed these are later year dies, I am not able to identify any references of restrikes to the 1629 Taler. If the dies were simply made as a replica, I would be surprised if they were made with such a heavy cast iron build.
I appreciate this feedback and the breadth of knowledge.
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
I have a little information on the mintmaster at that time, courtesy of Forrer: “German goldsmith Hans Christoph Lauer applied for the post of Master of the Nuremberg Mint in October 1618, and already in the same year, on 9 December, he was entrusted with the issue of 150 Goldgulden for Würzburg, which bear his distinctive mark, a star. In 1619, Lauer restruck a large number of foreign gold coins into Nuremberg Goldgulden; again in 1620 and 1621, he was ordered to coin a large quantity of gold and silver currency. Lauer served as the Mintmaster at Nuremberg 1623-1639. He died in September or October 1639 and was succeeded by his son, Hans David Lauer.”
While I’m not an expert on dies nor on Shooting Talers, I tend to side with Regandon on this set of dies. First, dies can survive well for such a long time if properly stored in a dry, cool climate. The stress of usage tends to open pits for rust to develop from, and this set appears to have been little used. Second, the spread of striking technology was idiosyncratic during this period and you really have to research the individual mint history to know what it had where. I am also curious as to whether the DG-HYP restrike dies offered on eBay have the same kind of markings shown here; there was no particular need for DG-HYP to mark them so, although they certainly could have chosen to do so for simplicity of identification. A comparison might make it easier to decide one way or the other since there would have been no reason in my mind for them to make identical dies, just ones that fit their presses.
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Great info. What is the source for this historical perspective?
Interesting you mention Würzburg - is that what is written in the etchings ?
Thank you for this input.
Z
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
As to the etching, it seems to me like it is Würzburg, but the dark coloring of what appears to be rust obscures it. If the Nuremberg mint’s workload was too busy, it would not have been unknown for some of the striking to have been contracted out. It is also possible that the dies could have been sent out for safekeeping. Germany was in the midst of the Thirty Years’ War at that time and Nuremberg itself would be under siege in 1632.
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