tomorrow they drill the safe deposit box

cartermurph · March 13, 2011 11:23PM

Can anyone share their experience in opening a sealed mint bag of Morgan silver dollars. A friend of a friend passed away and he had an origional 1000 fv bag of Morgans. The bag has set in a bank vault for 30 + years. I am curious about the % of toned coins it may contain. Are there dealers that would pay a premium for a trully origional bag? I have found little info on the rarity of these. Thank you for any help jason

BAJJERFAN · March 13, 2011 11:44PM

If twas mine I would look into working with PCGS to grade the whole bag. Do you know what is supposed to be in the bag?

cartermurph · March 13, 2011 11:52PM

No but I am assuming common date BU. Is it certain that any coin in contact with the fabric of the bag develops that rich toning?

BAJJERFAN · March 14, 2011 12:26AM

From what HRH has said in the past, I don't think that you could expect to find lots of killer toners. You can also read about his experiences here.

cartermurph · March 14, 2011 12:33AM

thank you for the link. I have been surprised at the lack of info available. If you could pm me with what you think would be a fair offer for me to make. Thanks BAJJERFAN

2manycoins2fewfunds · March 14, 2011 12:35AM

Check that bag closely for even the smallest of holes.

The old timers mention cigarette burn holes to peek through to see what bag contains.

In modern era a pediactric fiber optic broncoscope is only 3-4mm in size (1/8th inch) and could give a very good look at contents.

With silver at $35 I'd guess a sealed bag would bring between 35-50K

AUandAG · March 14, 2011 12:37AM

When I worked in the hard count room of a casino back in the early 60's we
saw many bags. Toners were next to nil. Ours all came out of the SF storage
facility via Reno and then to Carson City.
Even though I collected coins at the time it was not dollars (stupid me!) and
will not comment on the grades. I do remember that original bags were all
year stamped on the bag in large black letters. The bag also was stamped with
the mint: San Francisco Mint in the same big black lettering.
I often dream of them!

bob

roadrunner · March 14, 2011 12:42AM

Fully original raw bags bring more than put together or picked over ones though it's probably a lot less than one would think.
What matters most is that the coins have a freshly minted appearance and haven't been picked over for higher grades, varieties, and toners.

roadrunner

cartermurph · March 14, 2011 12:53AM

The vault that the bag is in is in Philly. The man that passed away lived in another city on the East Coast. The bag hasn't been touched for 30 + years I know when a deal seems to good to be true it probably isn't, so I'm not gonna get my hopes up. This fella left 20 million to his favorite charity just before he died. With the information I have it leads me to believe the bag is in fact origional.

Greeniejr · March 14, 2011 1:02AM

It can be really hit or miss. We dealt with a hoard a yr or two ago that was 25 BU bags. We had all the bags graded and they were really hit or miss. There were some bags that were out of this world amazing (yielding many 67s and a few 68s) and some that were swill (mostly 64 and under). As far as toners, not much, no more than a handful in any bag and many did not have any.

cartermurph · March 14, 2011 1:23AM

Very interesting, thank you all for the additional insight.

RWB · March 14, 2011 1:27AM

A bag with a Federal Reserve or US Treasury name on it will likely contain circulated dollars or mixed uncirculated. These will usually be sealed with a lead crimp, wire or heavy cord and lead seal with a tag. Original US Mint bags will have the name of the mint and usually the date (but not always). Mint bags were usually sewn closed. However, in 1894 and 1899, large quantities of bagged dollars were transferred to new bags and/or boxes. A full 1,000 coin bag will weigh about 54 pounds.

Hope this helps.

cupronik · March 14, 2011 1:38AM

My experience on toned dollars suggests that most of these came from original paper rolls (end pieces) due to the sulfur content in the paper. I've handled probably 5-6 bags and the coins tended to be white (except for the 23-P bag which the coins displayed a light golden haze.) covering the surfaces

cartermurph · March 14, 2011 3:14AM

I will update when I negotiate the purchase of the bag.

cartermurph · March 14, 2011 11:00AM

ttt for evening viewers

GaCoinGuy · March 14, 2011 12:28PM

Sounds like a fun time to be had. Hope it works out for you.

MadMarty · April 21, 2011 1:59AM

So did you get the bag? What happened!!!

coinkid855 · April 21, 2011 2:02AM

<< So did you get the bag? What happened!!! >>

Yeah, tell us! Idk how this thread died!!

-Paul

MsMorrisine · April 21, 2011 2:34AM

Even a good shot at some nice original uncirculated coins will get people interested.

So, the story on this one has a lot of people's attention.

ColonelJessup · April 21, 2011 3:34AM

The bag itself, if original from Mint or Sub-Treasury, has value even when the coins are gone.

The Continental Bank hoard (literally hundred of bags bought by Ed Milas) was dispersed in the early 1980's via multiple wholesalers over some period of time so as not to flood the market and lowes prices. There were some marvelous toners in the group, but they were a very small proportion of the group. I don't know if they were cherry-picked by the seller or the buyers.

I'm waiting for a post from the forum member who was told that some dealers poured a liquid (probably sulfur-based) onto the bag to tone the coins inside. I have my doubts.

PCcoins · April 21, 2011 3:58AM

I'm sure there are some original unopened bags out there... somewhere.

With the price of silver hitting the sky, and possiblility of finding unc. coins, Id image that the seller would be looking to make a nice profit off an original bag of morgans.

cartermurph · April 29, 2011 12:17AM

Alright it looks like Friday May 6 is the date to open the vault. Unfortunately we now have a second collector in the picture. He is wanting to fly to Philladelphia to be there when it's opened. I've heard this guy is a sheet buyer. I hate when people fish for sheet prices on this forumn but what does greysheet say about $1000 fv morgan silver dollar? The owner is going to open the Safe deposit box via Skype. I'll see if i can post the link to anyone interested. Jason

cartermurph · April 29, 2011 9:20AM

this will probably end up being a worn investment bag. Oh but to dream.

pakasmom · April 29, 2011 11:21AM

I know this is probably a stupid question but would an original/unopened mint bag be of all one date and MM?

savoyspecial · April 29, 2011 11:27AM

>>I know this is probably a stupid question but would an original/unopened mint bag be of all one date and MM?>>

yes, it should

pakasmom · April 29, 2011 12:05PM

Thanks, Greg!

Then here's hoping cartermurph buys the deal and gets a bag of 93s's!

cartermurph · April 29, 2011 11:50PM

I would be jumping for joy if it was any date in the 90's. I think it would be a safe bet they will be philly mint marked.

TwoSides2aCoin · April 30, 2011 12:32AM

There is a gentleman in my town who used to own a company called Tidy House Soap. His name is Bob. He told me when he owned his company (he sold it to Arm & Hammer in 1969), he did a promotion and hired girls to put Morgan dollars into some cardboard cutouts promoting his company. He sold these coins for a couple of bucks each. Some guys may know about "Tidy House" Morgans.
I never asked him how many his company actually put out, but he was purchasing original bags of Morgans for $1100 from someone out in California way back in the mid to late sixties. He said to me : " I hired a chemist to get those things back to bright white. I couldn't sell them with all that toning, and there were hundreds of "rainbow" toned coins. Then he said : " if I knew then, I could have made millions". Then I asked: "How much you sell your company to Arm & Hammer for ". He laughed and said : "millions".
Bob's highlight , numismatically... was getting to meet Aubrey Beebee.

That's my only experience and it's hearsay.

jesbroken · April 30, 2011 12:38AM

So, then we are to assume that all Tidy House Morgans have been cleaned? That's a shame.
Jim

TwoSides2aCoin · April 30, 2011 12:39AM

No, not cleaned.... dipped. And there were thousands that weren't toned. Get your figures and facts straight on the hearsay.

gsaguy · April 30, 2011 12:40AM

<< The bag itself, if original from Mint or Sub-Treasury, has value even when the coins are gone.

The Continental Bank hoard (literally hundred of bags bought by Ed Milas) was dispersed in the early 1980's via multiple wholesalers over some period of time so as not to flood the market and lowes prices. There were some marvelous toners in the group, but they were a very small proportion of the group. I don't know if they were cherry-picked by the seller or the buyers.

I'm waiting for a post from the forum member who was told that some dealers poured a liquid (probably sulfur-based) onto the bag to tone the coins inside. I have my doubts. >>

I've never handled an original mint bag still filled with Morgan Dollars. However, I recall Houston dealer Clark Samuelson (now deceased) telling me about sorting toners from the Continental Bank hoard. They way he spoke, there were a lot of toners in the group, booming luster and beautiful colors. I believe Clark was working for Milas at the time....someone can probably confirm that.

As for the mint bags themselves, I've sold a number of original CC mint bags that came out of the GSA sale. Prices have ranged from $400 to $1500 each.

Shamika · April 30, 2011 1:14AM

<< From what HRH has said in the past, I don't think that you could expect to find lots of killer toners. You can also read about his experiences here. >>

Hmmm... The statement David makes about looking through 10 million silver dollars seems hard to imagine. If one were to look at 3 coins per second, 40 solid hours per week, it would take almost 28 YEARS to look through 10 million silver dollars.

But the article is still a great read!

Thanks

cartermurph · April 30, 2011 5:41AM

The original offer I made was assuming there would be some nice toned coins. From the responses the forum seems split 50/50. If there aren't any toners I'll have to keep my fingers crossed for higher grades.

JupitarCoins · April 30, 2011 11:59AM

Please keep us informed!!!

pontiacinf · April 30, 2011 12:17PM

<< From what HRH has said in the past, I don't think that you could expect to find lots of killer toners. You can also read about his experiences here. >>

thanks for posting that, best read I had in a long time

llafoe · April 30, 2011 12:31PM

You guys are too late... here's the link to them opening the vault!

keets · April 30, 2011 12:54PM

most stories i hear which begin with "a friend of a friend" end up being of the Urban Myth variety.

kevinstang · April 30, 2011 1:18PM

<< >>I know this is probably a stupid question but would an original/unopened mint bag be of all one date and MM?>>

yes, it should >>

Weren't something like 10 or 20 1893-S dollars found in an original bag of 1894-S at one time?

cartermurph · April 30, 2011 1:43PM

<< most stories i hear which begin with "a friend of a friend" end up being of the Urban Myth variety. >>

We will know Friday. Let's hope it's not like Al Capones vault. Maybe instead of coins it will be full of uncirculated beanie babies. What ya think Keats

GAT · April 30, 2011 2:47PM

<< There is a gentleman in my town who used to own a company called Tidy House Soap. His name is Bob. He told me when he owned his company (he sold it to Arm & Hammer in 1969), he did a promotion and hired girls to put Morgan dollars into some cardboard cutouts promoting his company. He sold these coins for a couple of bucks each. Some guys may know about "Tidy House" Morgans.
I never asked him how many his company actually put out, but he was purchasing original bags of Morgans for $1100 from someone out in California way back in the mid to late sixties. He said to me : " I hired a chemist to get those things back to bright white. I couldn't sell them with all that toning, and there were hundreds of "rainbow" toned coins. Then he said : " if I knew then, I could have made millions". Then I asked: "How much you sell your company to Arm & Hammer for ". He laughed and said : "millions".
Bob's highlight , numismatically... was getting to meet Aubrey Beebee.

That's my only experience and it's hearsay. >>

Surprise, surprise, I own a number of Tidy House Morgans in their original packaging and guess what, they retoned!!!

cartermurph · May 1, 2011 12:12AM

I think the owner may split the bag between the other guy and myself. What should I say I'll take all the dirty looking ones.

cartermurph · May 1, 2011 9:45PM

With the pullback in silver I think my offer will stand a pretty good chance of getting the bag.

cartermurph · May 4, 2011 1:56AM

I just found out the other collectors is not flying out to Philadelphia. So right now the playing field is looking pretty level.

PCcoins · May 4, 2011 2:10AM

Lets just hope the bag is of uncirculated Morgans, because I have heard of bags with circulated morgans as well.

cartermurph · May 6, 2011 7:18AM

I really thought there would be more interest in this thread. They went to open the safe deposit box today and the keys wouldn't work. Anyone have any ideas how this would happen. Tomorrow they are going to drill the box. I will know with in the hour the size of the box.

DRUNNER · May 6, 2011 7:25AM

Well . .I am interested. It's just that this has taken a while and I think it is natural that we drift off the topic a bit from time to time . .

Drunner
(Let me know if there are any Doilies in the bag)

cartermurph · May 6, 2011 7:31AM

<< Well . .I am interested. It's just that this has taken a while and I think it is natural that we drift off the topic a bit from time to time . .

Drunner
(Let me know if there are any Doilies in the bag) >>

Will do...

edix2001 · May 6, 2011 7:35AM

Great topic!

keyman64 · May 6, 2011 7:37AM

Maybe it is a bag of Ikes!

OPA · May 6, 2011 7:37AM

<< I really thought there would be more interest in this thread. They went to open the safe deposit box today and the keys wouldn't work. Anyone have any ideas how this would happen. Tomorrow they are going to drill the box. I will know with in the hour the size of the box. >>

Keys belong to a different sdb? If the keys don't fit, how do they know whats in the sdb?

cartermurph · May 6, 2011 7:58AM

Wouldn't the deceased name be on the lease of the box. He told the executer they were there.

tomorrow they drill the safe deposit box

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