What's the biggest loss you've ever heard of a collector/dealer incurring when they sold a coin?
GoldenEyeNumismatics
Posts: 13,187 ✭✭✭
Let's hear some painful stories.
Somebody sure got beaten up on this one:
1817/4 ANACS XF first time
second time
Somebody sure got beaten up on this one:
1817/4 ANACS XF first time
second time
0
Comments
<< <i>Let's hear some painful stories >>
Ok, now thats out of the way...
Why you ask? Did you have some down luck?
<< <i>
<< <i>Let's hear some painful stories >>
Ok, now that's out of the way...
Why you ask? Did you have some down luck?
Nope, it's just that we often hear of coins that were big winners. How about some losers?
The SP66 1794 Amon Carter silver dollar fetched around $1 MILL towards the end of the 1990 coin boom. When auctioned a short time later it fetched in the $300's.
Someone took a hefty loss on that one.
roadrunner
Edited to add my estimate of the unrealized Farouk 1933 loss at $3-4M max.
www.brunkauctions.com
<< <i>i have to quietly disagree that it is a given fact that the Farouk 1933 Double Eagle would lose money.......when something is unique it is rare to the point of being uncollectible.......11 as a total population is still not that many and may even enhance appeal >>
I disagree. Even if the government doesn't lose the Langbord lawsuit, just the fact that it's one of 13 vs one of 3 is enough to drive the value down. And if the government does lose as I expect it to, then the value becomes something like $3M
<< <i>Let's hear some painful stories.
Somebody sure got beaten up on this one:
1817/4 ANACS XF first time
second time >>
It must have been dreck.
<< <i>The largest realized loss I'm aware of was in excess of $1M on the King of Siam set. Someone paid over $3M and then in just a few years sold for less than $2M
Edited to add my estimate of the unrealized Farouk 1933 loss at $3-4M max. >>
A whole big set of dreck!
Non-dreck is always worth very high prices - the only challenge is getting the collector to realize that.
<< <i>
<< <i>The largest realized loss I'm aware of was in excess of $1M on the King of Siam set. Someone paid over $3M and then in just a few years sold for less than $2M
Edited to add my estimate of the unrealized Farouk 1933 loss at $3-4M max. >>
A whole big set of dreck!
Non-dreck is always worth very high prices - the only challenge is getting the collector to realize that. >>
Very amusing.
If you *have* to sell, you're gonna lose money in coins.
No matter what some dealers say.
450 according to pcgs records and I thought that was sad, but it does not even come
close to what you guys are showing-holy s^&%$#
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
Granted the hit is unrealized at this point but you're looking at probably $600 down the toilet. Small potatoes until you consider the most expensive coin I've bought cost $600. This was about 2.5 years ago when I first jumped in.
Nick
<< <i>Let's hear some painful stories.
Somebody sure got beaten up on this one:
1817/4 ANACS XF first time
second time >>
First Problem = Corroded = Problem Coin
+ Second Problem = No CAC
______________________
= Schlock
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>Within my first couple months of collecting I managed to snag an obviously cleaned 1914-s lincoln and two, (I think) 1918 DDO lincolns that were not DDO and graded vg8. I've still got them as a reminder.
Granted the hit is unrealized at this point but you're looking at probably $600 down the toilet. Small potatoes until you consider the most expensive coin I've bought cost $600. This was about 2.5 years ago when I first jumped in.
Nick >>
I hope I got this jist right of what you were asking for with this thread. If not, then I take back the above. Never happened. Just my imagination running wild. On a side note I just listed a very pretty 1914-s and two 1918 DDO's on the BST with lots of character.
Please buy them so I can come back on this thread and post a real story about a loss someone just took.
<< <i>
<< <i>Let's hear some painful stories.
Somebody sure got beaten up on this one:
1817/4 ANACS XF first time
second time >>
First Problem = Corroded = Problem Coin
+ Second Problem = No CAC
______________________
= Schlock >>
Sorry but CAC is a non issue here as they do not sticker ANACS coins if IRC.
<< <i>This is an excellent thread. It does not necessarily follow that all coins are bad investments (after all, look at the performance of scrap 90% and AGEs over the past decade - spectacular rises), but it does mean that ultra-high end, ultra-rare numismatic coins are not necessarily good investments when bought at ultra-high prices.
No matter what some dealers say. >>
The problem with this statement is that you almost always have to 'overpay' to acquire a ultra high end ultra rare numismatic item. And you rarely have an accurate price guide to base your opinion of value upon. So there's a very fine line between 'overpaying' and OVERPAYING. The safest way to look at it is this: recognize that if you're going to have to sell then you're going to lose money but if you have the financial and mental strength to hold long term then not only are you likely to make money on this particular purchase, but it's also going to add value to your entire collection. I have justified significant purchases this way in the past and for the most part it has been a reliable point of view.
For instance, each time I upgraded the seated dollar set I was crying at what I was paying to acquire the new coin ... but in the end the set gained such a stature that when I named my price I got it. I dare say that it was the largest profit ever realized in coins over such a short time period. So the individual decisions to 'overpay' turned into a huge positive overall.
<< <i>
<< <i>This is an excellent thread. It does not necessarily follow that all coins are bad investments (after all, look at the performance of scrap 90% and AGEs over the past decade - spectacular rises), but it does mean that ultra-high end, ultra-rare numismatic coins are not necessarily good investments when bought at ultra-high prices.
No matter what some dealers say. >>
The problem with this statement is that you almost always have to 'overpay' to acquire a ultra high end ultra rare numismatic item. And you rarely have an accurate price guide to base your opinion of value upon. So there's a very fine line between 'overpaying' and OVERPAYING. The safest way to look at it is this: recognize that if you're going to have to sell then you're going to lose money but if you have the financial and mental strength to hold long term then not only are you likely to make money on this particular purchase, but it's also going to add value to your entire collection. I have justified significant purchases this way in the past and for the most part it has been a reliable point of view.
For instance, each time I upgraded the seated dollar set I was crying at what I was paying to acquire the new coin ... but in the end the set gained such a stature that when I named my price I got it. I dare say that it was the largest profit ever realized in coins over such a short time period. So the individual decisions to 'overpay' turned into a huge positive overall. >>
yeah and it was also an OMG set
if mine it wouldve had to been pryed from my cold dead hands-seriously
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
How do you lose $2K on a $700 coin??
<< <i>Alright - I'll bite.
How do you lose $2K on a $700 coin??
By paying $2700 for it.
<< <i>
<< <i>Alright - I'll bite.
How do you lose $2K on a $700 coin??
By paying $2700 for it.
<< <i>
<< <i>This is an excellent thread. It does not necessarily follow that all coins are bad investments (after all, look at the performance of scrap 90% and AGEs over the past decade - spectacular rises), but it does mean that ultra-high end, ultra-rare numismatic coins are not necessarily good investments when bought at ultra-high prices.
No matter what some dealers say. >>
The problem with this statement is that you almost always have to 'overpay' to acquire a ultra high end ultra rare numismatic item. And you rarely have an accurate price guide to base your opinion of value upon. So there's a very fine line between 'overpaying' and OVERPAYING. The safest way to look at it is this: recognize that if you're going to have to sell then you're going to lose money but if you have the financial and mental strength to hold long term then not only are you likely to make money on this particular purchase, but it's also going to add value to your entire collection. I have justified significant purchases this way in the past and for the most part it has been a reliable point of view.
For instance, each time I upgraded the seated dollar set I was crying at what I was paying to acquire the new coin ... but in the end the set gained such a stature that when I named my price I got it. I dare say that it was the largest profit ever realized in coins over such a short time period. So the individual decisions to 'overpay' turned into a huge positive overall. >>
I agree with your thoughts. Sadly, many people who purchase coins for which they 'overpay' do not do so with the same depth of understanding, commitment and resolve as you did. There is, however, an unavoidable element of financial risk inherent in the aquisition of any tangible asset. Oftentimes, in the heat of the moment when purchasing a magnificent coin, it is easy to forget that risk - and pay for it later. I get frustrated by the superficial investment-babble that some people apply to the coin market - and it is satisfying to question those superficial assumptions. Your thinking is clearly in a different league.
My biggest loss was years ago before I had real knowledge of gold, bought a bunch of type gold only to find out later most were bad. and before that, loss substanitally on some red indians that werent red.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Took a $650 loss.
$650? Piker.
Hoard the keys.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>
<< <i>This is an excellent thread. It does not necessarily follow that all coins are bad investments (after all, look at the performance of scrap 90% and AGEs over the past decade - spectacular rises), but it does mean that ultra-high end, ultra-rare numismatic coins are not necessarily good investments when bought at ultra-high prices.
No matter what some dealers say. >>
The problem with this statement is that you almost always have to 'overpay' to acquire a ultra high end ultra rare numismatic item. And you rarely have an accurate price guide to base your opinion of value upon. So there's a very fine line between 'overpaying' and OVERPAYING. The safest way to look at it is this: recognize that if you're going to have to sell then you're going to lose money but if you have the financial and mental strength to hold long term then not only are you likely to make money on this particular purchase, but it's also going to add value to your entire collection. I have justified significant purchases this way in the past and for the most part it has been a reliable point of view.
For instance, each time I upgraded the seated dollar set I was crying at what I was paying to acquire the new coin ... but in the end the set gained such a stature that when I named my price I got it. I dare say that it was the largest profit ever realized in coins over such a short time period. So the individual decisions to 'overpay' turned into a huge positive overall. >>
As a collector you are in a great spot, you have a much better way to ever get rid of a turd if you ever happened to buy one. ( unlikely)
I would almost bet most collectors buying 100k or 1 million plus dollar coins are not using the rent money. A 250k loss is not a big deal. No one likes to lose money but it happens from time to time. 1 strike out after every 10 home runs is not so bad.
I lost 1000 on a lincoln. I cracked it out and left it laying inside my phote cube deal. To this day it has not been found. I or my wife may have thrown it is a bag of lincolns or it may have gotten spent. (1922 no D)
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
1905-S Barber dime in 1980/81...probably what we'd grade 58+ today.
In early 1980, the rare coin market was as crazy as it had ever been...and it hasn't been that crazy since. This was of course during the huge run-up in gold and silver bullion prices and before slabs came on the scene in 1986. All coins were raw and the coin shows were a huge deal. You went to the show early and hustled around trying to buy underpriced coins, or "rips" as we called them. But between summer of 1979 and April of 1980, the rare coin market was beyond hot. Prices were going up almost across the board every week. There was even one week when every listing in the weekly Coin Dealer Newsletter showed a plus sign. When you went to a coin show you often sold 90% of your new purchases at the coin show! In other words, at shows coins often only stayed in your inventory for a day or two...or less. It was hard to buy coins...and harder to buy deals, sets and quantity deals of nice coins. The prices asked by dealers were outrageous. It was like..."Let's see. Shall I pay 60% over bid or 70% over bid at this show." You often bought deals just because you'd probably sell them almost no matter what you paid.
So...with that in mind...here's my loss story.
Sometime in early 1980 I bought a complete set of Choice to Gem Barber dimes...or at least they looked Choice to Gem. I figured the deal, bought the set at a huge premium price, then priced out the coins individually. I sold half the set for a 15% or so per coin profit almost immediately, and most of the rest of the coins as time went on. But then the rare coin market screeched to a halt on April 19th, 1980, literally stopped on a dime. The rest of the year was pretty rough. But I went to one or two shows every month. My strategy at the time was to price the coins at what I though they were worth. If a coin didn't sell at a show, the next time I took to a show I'd lower the price 5% or 10% until it sold. By early 1981 I had sold every coin in that barber dime set except one. It was a 1905-S that had pretty toning. I had costed it in at $2,000. I kept lowering the price for over a year. Finally I took it to a show and my asking price was $100. I showed my coins to Jim Halperin (pre-Heritage, New England Rare Coin Galleries at the time). Jim offered me fifty bucks for the coin. What the heck, I'd had it forever...I sold the coin I paid $2,000 to Jim for $50...a 97.5% loss!
PS...Jim sold the coin at the same show to Casey Noxon for $90.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Fred Weinberg once posted here about a high grade slabbed $4 gold stella that he accidently threw out in the trash. It now sits in a landfill. Ouch!!!
I'm aware of another coin that was worth $30,000 to $60,000, depending on what it would have graded, ended up in a landfill. Not my coin, the story has never been told.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
22 years ago.
In May of 1989, I partnered with Iraj Sayah in purchasing
thru Jay Miller 17 high grade $10 Indians from Robert
Kruthoffer...a well-known collector of U.S. gold at the time.
We paid $1,650,000 for the 17 coins, and financed a major
portion of it thru Safra Bank (who did collateral loans for
the coin industry - both bullion and rare coins).
We were trying to get around, or just under, $2 Million for
the deal, but although some strong hands flew out here
to view the coins (high grades/scarce & rare dates that have
since been upgraded 1-2 points at least), we never sold
the deal.
Finally, we had to sell it in a Superior Auction in 1992; with
our base cost, and accured interest for 3 years, and a down
market at the time, Iraj and I each lost $1,000,000.
I'll pull the dates and grades from my files if anyone is interested.
At that time, I was also very heavily involved in the China Mint
market, and luckily, it didn't hurt as much as it should have!
Anyway, it's a story I'm pretty sure most of you are not aware of.
It was one of the first PCGS PF-65's
graded, and it was thrown away in
the Simi Valley Landfill in June of 1986.
Valued at $65,000 at the time
In the early 1970s, I was one a few people in the Chicago area seriously interested in non-US coins and paper money. I was building my own collection (long since dispersed) and setting up a table at some small local shows. At these shows, some of the US dealers would offer me whatever non-US material they had and I would buy bulk groupings all the time of their 'unwanted stuff'. I went through these groups for my collection, and I set up the duplicates for sale or trade. Strictly small time in terms of money.
I was coming home on a commuter train after buying a single row box of Chinese coins, which I was just hand-carrying. I was tired, and not paying attention. When I got home I realized I did not have the coins with me. Almost 40 years later I still do not know if I left the coins on the platform where I sat while waiting for the train, or on the train itserlf. With the price of Chinese coins being what it is now, I wonder what that box full would be worth today. I also wonder what the person who found it made of it.
<< <i>Yea, I forgot about the Stella.
It was one of the first PCGS PF-65's
graded, and it was thrown away in
the Simi Valley Landfill in June of 1986.
Valued at $65,000 at the time >>
Thrown away??
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
that the coin was in a tray with other PCGS
Proof Gold coins. As I was walking out of my
vault room with the framed velvet tray with
a half dozen of the Proof Gold coins in it, my
arm hit a wood post, and the coins fell out of
the tray. I thought I got them all, but it wasn't
until Monday (this happened on a Friday) that
I realized the Proof-65 Stella was missing......
It must have fallen into a tall trash bin in the
Vault room, and the trash pick up was traced
to the Simi Valley Trash Dump site - too late
to try to figure out where to go and look for it.
Sounds stupid, I know - but it happened.
<< <i>It's a kinda long story, but the short version is
that the coin was in a tray with other PCGS
Proof Gold coins. As I was walking out of my
vault room with the framed velvet tray with
a half dozen of the Proof Gold coins in it, my
arm hit a wood post, and the coins fell out of
the tray. I thought I got them all, but it wasn't
until Monday (this happened on a Friday) that
I realized the Proof-65 Stella was missing......
It must have fallen into a tall trash bin in the
Vault room, and the trash pick up was traced
to the Simi Valley Trash Dump site - too late
to try to figure out where to go and look for it.
Sounds stupid, I know - but it happened. >>
Wow....that would really suck!! Is there insurance for something like that?
<< <i>Great discussion! People tend to brag about their successes and tend to hide their mistakes. It's good to see some people talking about some very bad coin purchase decisions. I suspect that there are a lot more stories that people aren't mentioning. >>
Some board members claim to have never lost money on a coin sale. I dont see how that is possible.
<< <i>
<< <i>Great discussion! People tend to brag about their successes and tend to hide their mistakes. It's good to see some people talking about some very bad coin purchase decisions. I suspect that there are a lot more stories that people aren't mentioning. >>
Some board members claim to have never lost money on a coin sale. I dont see how that is possible. >>
One way would be to choose not to sell any coins you can't make a profit on.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Tom
"Mysterious Disapearance" is generally
not covered in Insurance Policies.
I guess, looking back at the value of
it thenand now, I'm certainly glad I
didn't throw it away today!
Did I buy the stupidly graded 11-D $10 (63 later 64) from that Superior sale for 30k+?
Bowers sold an 1801 S$1 NGC66CAM maybe 4 years ago for about $700K all in that had previously retailed to the consignor for $1,100,000.
There were some really bodacious losses in 1991-1992 when various collateralization programs pulled the plug.
In 1989 this little piggy remembered from 1982 that Gary Fitzgerald had bought the Eliasberg 1795 $10. I can still remember AJT , whom I guess had bought the coin at the sale, walking around the Boston show, showing the coin in a fresh burger bun. "1795 $10, from an original roll".
Having paid $170K I knew I had a winner. I had a winner when I turned down Marty Haber's $250K offer at CSNS. I had a winner when I turned down Jay MIller's $310K offer at Long Beach because Les Polansky wanted it on memo to show Iraj at $375K. 3 weeks later I was dead meat.
Oink, oink oink.
Sold in late 1990 for $88K to Sil who quick-flipped it to Ed Milas for Marvin Brower.
Leveraging is a really really cool way to lose money on anything, but the liquidity factor for coins makes them special.
<< <i>The most impressive thing to me is your memories of the deals from so long ago - I buy golf shirts in pro-shops to remind me of where I've been.
Man, I dunno. I would have a very hard time trying to forget some of those deals! And I would try very hard too!
It made for a very interesting couple of threads on this forum. When I posted the REAL pictures of what they coin looked like, the guy who had sold it to me chimed in with what an ugly coin it was, and how I wanted too much money for it. Awesome, especially since I had bought it from him 3 weeks before.
You live and learn.