What's the biggest loss you've ever heard of a collector/dealer incurring when they sold a coin?

GoldenEyeNumismatics · April 13, 2011 8:21AM

Let's hear some painful stories.

Somebody sure got beaten up on this one:

1817/4 ANACS XF first time
second time

ChrisRx · April 13, 2011 8:36AM

<< Let's hear some painful stories >>

Ok, now thats out of the way...

Why you ask? Did you have some down luck?

GoldenEyeNumismatics · April 13, 2011 8:42AM

<< 

<< Let's hear some painful stories >>

Ok, now that's out of the way...

Why you ask? Did you have some down luck?

>>

Nope, it's just that we often hear of coins that were big winners. How about some losers?

DNADave · April 13, 2011 8:46AM

This wasn't my most brilliant move....2 gold eagles.

roadrunner · April 13, 2011 8:53AM

If the owner of the Farouk 1933 $20 Saint ever sells, he's probably looking at a $4-$6 MILL loss....assuming the govt doesn't socialize the loss for him.

The SP66 1794 Amon Carter silver dollar fetched around $1 MILL towards the end of the 1990 coin boom. When auctioned a short time later it fetched in the $300's.
Someone took a hefty loss on that one.

roadrunner

tradedollarnut · April 13, 2011 9:04AM

The largest realized loss I'm aware of was in excess of $1M on the King of Siam set. Someone paid over $3M and then in just a few years sold for less than $2M

Edited to add my estimate of the unrealized Farouk 1933 loss at $3-4M max.

savoyspecial · April 13, 2011 9:24AM

i have to quietly disagree that it is a given fact that the Farouk 1933 Double Eagle would lose money.......when something is unique it is rare to the point of being uncollectible.......11 as a total population is still not that many and may even enhance appeal

tradedollarnut · April 13, 2011 9:26AM

<< i have to quietly disagree that it is a given fact that the Farouk 1933 Double Eagle would lose money.......when something is unique it is rare to the point of being uncollectible.......11 as a total population is still not that many and may even enhance appeal >>

I disagree. Even if the government doesn't lose the Langbord lawsuit, just the fact that it's one of 13 vs one of 3 is enough to drive the value down. And if the government does lose as I expect it to, then the value becomes something like $3M

questor54 · April 13, 2011 9:30AM

<< Let's hear some painful stories.

Somebody sure got beaten up on this one:

1817/4 ANACS XF first time
second time >>

It must have been dreck.

questor54 · April 13, 2011 9:32AM

<< The largest realized loss I'm aware of was in excess of $1M on the King of Siam set. Someone paid over $3M and then in just a few years sold for less than $2M

Edited to add my estimate of the unrealized Farouk 1933 loss at $3-4M max. >>

A whole big set of dreck!

Non-dreck is always worth very high prices - the only challenge is getting the collector to realize that.

291fifth · April 13, 2011 9:33AM

A dealer told me that, during the 1980's a Brasher Dubloon was purchased at auction by a very well known dealer for over $600,000. The coin was sold privately to another very well known dealer, now deceased, for something over $200,000 a few years later.

tradedollarnut · April 13, 2011 9:36AM

<< 

<< The largest realized loss I'm aware of was in excess of $1M on the King of Siam set. Someone paid over $3M and then in just a few years sold for less than $2M

Edited to add my estimate of the unrealized Farouk 1933 loss at $3-4M max. >>

A whole big set of dreck!

Non-dreck is always worth very high prices - the only challenge is getting the collector to realize that. >>

Very amusing.

If you *have* to sell, you're gonna lose money in coins.

questor54 · April 13, 2011 9:38AM

This is an excellent thread. It does not necessarily follow that all coins are bad investments (after all, look at the performance of scrap 90% and AGEs over the past decade - spectacular rises), but it does mean that ultra-high end, ultra-rare numismatic coins are not necessarily good investments when bought at ultra-high prices.

No matter what some dealers say.

pontiacinf · April 13, 2011 9:42AM

geesh I pcked up a modern jefferson for 30 bucks deliverd that the previous owner paid
450 according to pcgs records and I thought that was sad, but it does not even come
close to what you guys are showing-holy s^&%$#

erickso1 · April 13, 2011 9:44AM

Within my first couple months of collecting I managed to snag an obviously cleaned 1914-s lincoln and two, (I think) 1918 DDO lincolns that were not DDO and graded vg8. I've still got them as a reminder.

Granted the hit is unrealized at this point but you're looking at probably $600 down the toilet. Small potatoes until you consider the most expensive coin I've bought cost $600. This was about 2.5 years ago when I first jumped in.

Nick

keyman64 · April 13, 2011 9:44AM

<< Let's hear some painful stories.

Somebody sure got beaten up on this one:

1817/4 ANACS XF first time
second time >>

First Problem = Corroded = Problem Coin
+ Second Problem = No CAC
______________________
= Schlock

erickso1 · April 13, 2011 9:58AM

<< Within my first couple months of collecting I managed to snag an obviously cleaned 1914-s lincoln and two, (I think) 1918 DDO lincolns that were not DDO and graded vg8. I've still got them as a reminder.

Granted the hit is unrealized at this point but you're looking at probably $600 down the toilet. Small potatoes until you consider the most expensive coin I've bought cost $600. This was about 2.5 years ago when I first jumped in.

Nick >>

I hope I got this jist right of what you were asking for with this thread. If not, then I take back the above. Never happened. Just my imagination running wild. On a side note I just listed a very pretty 1914-s and two 1918 DDO's on the BST with lots of character.
Please buy them so I can come back on this thread and post a real story about a loss someone just took.

LindeDad · April 13, 2011 10:02AM

<< 

<< Let's hear some painful stories.

Somebody sure got beaten up on this one:

1817/4 ANACS XF first time
second time >>

First Problem = Corroded = Problem Coin
+ Second Problem = No CAC
______________________
= Schlock >>

Sorry but CAC is a non issue here as they do not sticker ANACS coins if IRC.

tradedollarnut · April 13, 2011 10:15AM

<< This is an excellent thread. It does not necessarily follow that all coins are bad investments (after all, look at the performance of scrap 90% and AGEs over the past decade - spectacular rises), but it does mean that ultra-high end, ultra-rare numismatic coins are not necessarily good investments when bought at ultra-high prices.

No matter what some dealers say. >>

The problem with this statement is that you almost always have to 'overpay' to acquire a ultra high end ultra rare numismatic item. And you rarely have an accurate price guide to base your opinion of value upon. So there's a very fine line between 'overpaying' and OVERPAYING. The safest way to look at it is this: recognize that if you're going to have to sell then you're going to lose money but if you have the financial and mental strength to hold long term then not only are you likely to make money on this particular purchase, but it's also going to add value to your entire collection. I have justified significant purchases this way in the past and for the most part it has been a reliable point of view.

For instance, each time I upgraded the seated dollar set I was crying at what I was paying to acquire the new coin ... but in the end the set gained such a stature that when I named my price I got it. I dare say that it was the largest profit ever realized in coins over such a short time period. So the individual decisions to 'overpay' turned into a huge positive overall.

pontiacinf · April 13, 2011 10:20AM

<< 

<< This is an excellent thread. It does not necessarily follow that all coins are bad investments (after all, look at the performance of scrap 90% and AGEs over the past decade - spectacular rises), but it does mean that ultra-high end, ultra-rare numismatic coins are not necessarily good investments when bought at ultra-high prices.

No matter what some dealers say. >>

The problem with this statement is that you almost always have to 'overpay' to acquire a ultra high end ultra rare numismatic item. And you rarely have an accurate price guide to base your opinion of value upon. So there's a very fine line between 'overpaying' and OVERPAYING. The safest way to look at it is this: recognize that if you're going to have to sell then you're going to lose money but if you have the financial and mental strength to hold long term then not only are you likely to make money on this particular purchase, but it's also going to add value to your entire collection. I have justified significant purchases this way in the past and for the most part it has been a reliable point of view.

For instance, each time I upgraded the seated dollar set I was crying at what I was paying to acquire the new coin ... but in the end the set gained such a stature that when I named my price I got it. I dare say that it was the largest profit ever realized in coins over such a short time period. So the individual decisions to 'overpay' turned into a huge positive overall. >>

yeah and it was also an OMG set

if mine it wouldve had to been pryed from my cold dead hands-seriously

Unknown · April 13, 2011 10:23AM

This content has been removed.

Lakesammman · April 13, 2011 10:43AM

Alright - I'll bite.

How do you lose $2K on a $700 coin??

tradedollarnut · April 13, 2011 10:43AM

<< Alright - I'll bite.

How do you lose $2K on a $700 coin??

>>

By paying $2700 for it.

speety · April 13, 2011 10:45AM

<< 

<< Alright - I'll bite.

How do you lose $2K on a $700 coin??

>>

By paying $2700 for it.

>>

questor54 · April 13, 2011 10:51AM

<< 

<< This is an excellent thread. It does not necessarily follow that all coins are bad investments (after all, look at the performance of scrap 90% and AGEs over the past decade - spectacular rises), but it does mean that ultra-high end, ultra-rare numismatic coins are not necessarily good investments when bought at ultra-high prices.

No matter what some dealers say. >>

The problem with this statement is that you almost always have to 'overpay' to acquire a ultra high end ultra rare numismatic item. And you rarely have an accurate price guide to base your opinion of value upon. So there's a very fine line between 'overpaying' and OVERPAYING. The safest way to look at it is this: recognize that if you're going to have to sell then you're going to lose money but if you have the financial and mental strength to hold long term then not only are you likely to make money on this particular purchase, but it's also going to add value to your entire collection. I have justified significant purchases this way in the past and for the most part it has been a reliable point of view.

For instance, each time I upgraded the seated dollar set I was crying at what I was paying to acquire the new coin ... but in the end the set gained such a stature that when I named my price I got it. I dare say that it was the largest profit ever realized in coins over such a short time period. So the individual decisions to 'overpay' turned into a huge positive overall. >>

I agree with your thoughts. Sadly, many people who purchase coins for which they 'overpay' do not do so with the same depth of understanding, commitment and resolve as you did. There is, however, an unavoidable element of financial risk inherent in the aquisition of any tangible asset. Oftentimes, in the heat of the moment when purchasing a magnificent coin, it is easy to forget that risk - and pay for it later. I get frustrated by the superficial investment-babble that some people apply to the coin market - and it is satisfying to question those superficial assumptions. Your thinking is clearly in a different league.

jdimmick · April 13, 2011 11:22AM

I remember when that 1817/4 came to auction, I was in the room when it sold. I beleive this was the one that was found by the dirt contractor/son in texas, if so heritage introduced him and there was a round of applause after it sold for the 250k , I viewed the coin, and thought , even though neat how it surfaced, somebody would be buried in this piece at that level, apparently so.

My biggest loss was years ago before I had real knowledge of gold, bought a bunch of type gold only to find out later most were bad. and before that, loss substanitally on some red indians that werent red.

AnkurJ · April 13, 2011 11:50AM

Bought an early $5 from heritage in a problem free ANACS holder. Turned out to be cleaned and didn't cross at either NGC or PCGS. reconsigned it to Heritage. Took a $650 loss. Was happy to move the coin, and happy I didn't lose more.

MarkBen · April 13, 2011 12:05PM

Great discussion! People tend to brag about their successes and tend to hide their mistakes. It's good to see some people talking about some very bad coin purchase decisions. I suspect that there are a lot more stories that people aren't mentioning.

RYK · April 13, 2011 12:07PM

Some of the posts make me feel a little better about my biggest loser.

Took a $650 loss.

$650? Piker.

Type2 · April 13, 2011 12:09PM

I think it was Last year at the fun show. Some one cherryed a crazy eye morgan from a dealer picked it up for $175 graded it there at the show by PCGS and Vam it and now it's worth 30K or 50K maybe he will cham in. now that is a loss for the Dealer that is.

coindeuce · April 13, 2011 12:18PM

I sure would like to have the Pattern Morgan back that I traded away at a $3500 value. It sold within 60 days at auction for over $9000.

questor54 · April 13, 2011 12:22PM

I once sold a numismatic world gold collection at bullion value when going through a divorce. I was going to make sure my soon-to-be-ex wife would get none of the collection that I had invested so much care in building. And she didn't. But I let some great coins go at stupid low prices in the process. I was not thinking clearly.

pennyannie · April 13, 2011 2:22PM

<< 

<< This is an excellent thread. It does not necessarily follow that all coins are bad investments (after all, look at the performance of scrap 90% and AGEs over the past decade - spectacular rises), but it does mean that ultra-high end, ultra-rare numismatic coins are not necessarily good investments when bought at ultra-high prices.

No matter what some dealers say. >>

The problem with this statement is that you almost always have to 'overpay' to acquire a ultra high end ultra rare numismatic item. And you rarely have an accurate price guide to base your opinion of value upon. So there's a very fine line between 'overpaying' and OVERPAYING. The safest way to look at it is this: recognize that if you're going to have to sell then you're going to lose money but if you have the financial and mental strength to hold long term then not only are you likely to make money on this particular purchase, but it's also going to add value to your entire collection. I have justified significant purchases this way in the past and for the most part it has been a reliable point of view.

For instance, each time I upgraded the seated dollar set I was crying at what I was paying to acquire the new coin ... but in the end the set gained such a stature that when I named my price I got it. I dare say that it was the largest profit ever realized in coins over such a short time period. So the individual decisions to 'overpay' turned into a huge positive overall. >>

As a collector you are in a great spot, you have a much better way to ever get rid of a turd if you ever happened to buy one. ( unlikely)

I would almost bet most collectors buying 100k or 1 million plus dollar coins are not using the rent money. A 250k loss is not a big deal. No one likes to lose money but it happens from time to time. 1 strike out after every 10 home runs is not so bad.

I lost 1000 on a lincoln. I cracked it out and left it laying inside my phote cube deal. To this day it has not been found. I or my wife may have thrown it is a bag of lincolns or it may have gotten spent. (1922 no D)

homerunhall · April 13, 2011 3:31PM

Can't compete with the million dollar loss on the King of Siam set, but on a percentage basis my biggest loser was...

1905-S Barber dime in 1980/81...probably what we'd grade 58+ today.

In early 1980, the rare coin market was as crazy as it had ever been...and it hasn't been that crazy since. This was of course during the huge run-up in gold and silver bullion prices and before slabs came on the scene in 1986. All coins were raw and the coin shows were a huge deal. You went to the show early and hustled around trying to buy underpriced coins, or "rips" as we called them. But between summer of 1979 and April of 1980, the rare coin market was beyond hot. Prices were going up almost across the board every week. There was even one week when every listing in the weekly Coin Dealer Newsletter showed a plus sign. When you went to a coin show you often sold 90% of your new purchases at the coin show! In other words, at shows coins often only stayed in your inventory for a day or two...or less. It was hard to buy coins...and harder to buy deals, sets and quantity deals of nice coins. The prices asked by dealers were outrageous. It was like..."Let's see. Shall I pay 60% over bid or 70% over bid at this show." You often bought deals just because you'd probably sell them almost no matter what you paid.

So...with that in mind...here's my loss story.

Sometime in early 1980 I bought a complete set of Choice to Gem Barber dimes...or at least they looked Choice to Gem. I figured the deal, bought the set at a huge premium price, then priced out the coins individually. I sold half the set for a 15% or so per coin profit almost immediately, and most of the rest of the coins as time went on. But then the rare coin market screeched to a halt on April 19th, 1980, literally stopped on a dime. The rest of the year was pretty rough. But I went to one or two shows every month. My strategy at the time was to price the coins at what I though they were worth. If a coin didn't sell at a show, the next time I took to a show I'd lower the price 5% or 10% until it sold. By early 1981 I had sold every coin in that barber dime set except one. It was a 1905-S that had pretty toning. I had costed it in at $2,000. I kept lowering the price for over a year. Finally I took it to a show and my asking price was $100. I showed my coins to Jim Halperin (pre-Heritage, New England Rare Coin Galleries at the time). Jim offered me fifty bucks for the coin. What the heck, I'd had it forever...I sold the coin I paid $2,000 to Jim for $50...a 97.5% loss!

PS...Jim sold the coin at the same show to Casey Noxon for $90.

Unknown · April 13, 2011 4:26PM

This content has been removed.

PerryHall · April 13, 2011 5:04PM

Fred Weinberg once posted here about a high grade slabbed $4 gold stella that he accidently threw out in the trash. It now sits in a landfill. Ouch!!!

leothelyon · April 13, 2011 6:03PM

<< Fred Weinberg once posted here about a high grade slabbed $4 gold stella that he accidently threw out in the trash. It now sits in a landfill. Ouch!!!

>>

I'm aware of another coin that was worth $30,000 to $60,000, depending on what it would have graded, ended up in a landfill. Not my coin, the story has never been told.

Leo

FredWeinberg · April 14, 2011 12:43AM

Well, I bet my story is hard to beat. I'm glad that it was
22 years ago.

In May of 1989, I partnered with Iraj Sayah in purchasing
thru Jay Miller 17 high grade $10 Indians from Robert
Kruthoffer...a well-known collector of U.S. gold at the time.

We paid $1,650,000 for the 17 coins, and financed a major
portion of it thru Safra Bank (who did collateral loans for
the coin industry - both bullion and rare coins).

We were trying to get around, or just under, $2 Million for
the deal, but although some strong hands flew out here
to view the coins (high grades/scarce & rare dates that have
since been upgraded 1-2 points at least), we never sold
the deal.

Finally, we had to sell it in a Superior Auction in 1992; with
our base cost, and accured interest for 3 years, and a down
market at the time, Iraj and I each lost $1,000,000.

I'll pull the dates and grades from my files if anyone is interested.

At that time, I was also very heavily involved in the China Mint
market, and luckily, it didn't hurt as much as it should have!

Anyway, it's a story I'm pretty sure most of you are not aware of.

FredWeinberg · April 14, 2011 12:45AM

Yea, I forgot about the Stella.

It was one of the first PCGS PF-65's
graded, and it was thrown away in
the Simi Valley Landfill in June of 1986.

Valued at $65,000 at the time

questor54 · April 14, 2011 1:04AM

Another 'small potatoes' story.

In the early 1970s, I was one a few people in the Chicago area seriously interested in non-US coins and paper money. I was building my own collection (long since dispersed) and setting up a table at some small local shows. At these shows, some of the US dealers would offer me whatever non-US material they had and I would buy bulk groupings all the time of their 'unwanted stuff'. I went through these groups for my collection, and I set up the duplicates for sale or trade. Strictly small time in terms of money.

I was coming home on a commuter train after buying a single row box of Chinese coins, which I was just hand-carrying. I was tired, and not paying attention. When I got home I realized I did not have the coins with me. Almost 40 years later I still do not know if I left the coins on the platform where I sat while waiting for the train, or on the train itserlf. With the price of Chinese coins being what it is now, I wonder what that box full would be worth today. I also wonder what the person who found it made of it.

AnkurJ · April 14, 2011 2:09AM

<< Yea, I forgot about the Stella.

It was one of the first PCGS PF-65's
graded, and it was thrown away in
the Simi Valley Landfill in June of 1986.

Valued at $65,000 at the time >>

Thrown away??

FredWeinberg · April 14, 2011 2:29AM

It's a kinda long story, but the short version is
that the coin was in a tray with other PCGS
Proof Gold coins. As I was walking out of my
vault room with the framed velvet tray with
a half dozen of the Proof Gold coins in it, my
arm hit a wood post, and the coins fell out of
the tray. I thought I got them all, but it wasn't
until Monday (this happened on a Friday) that
I realized the Proof-65 Stella was missing......

It must have fallen into a tall trash bin in the
Vault room, and the trash pick up was traced
to the Simi Valley Trash Dump site - too late
to try to figure out where to go and look for it.

Sounds stupid, I know - but it happened.

relicsncoins · April 14, 2011 2:51AM

<< It's a kinda long story, but the short version is
that the coin was in a tray with other PCGS
Proof Gold coins. As I was walking out of my
vault room with the framed velvet tray with
a half dozen of the Proof Gold coins in it, my
arm hit a wood post, and the coins fell out of
the tray. I thought I got them all, but it wasn't
until Monday (this happened on a Friday) that
I realized the Proof-65 Stella was missing......

It must have fallen into a tall trash bin in the
Vault room, and the trash pick up was traced
to the Simi Valley Trash Dump site - too late
to try to figure out where to go and look for it.

Sounds stupid, I know - but it happened. >>

Wow....that would really suck!! Is there insurance for something like that?

coolest · April 14, 2011 4:53AM

<< Great discussion! People tend to brag about their successes and tend to hide their mistakes. It's good to see some people talking about some very bad coin purchase decisions. I suspect that there are a lot more stories that people aren't mentioning. >>

Some board members claim to have never lost money on a coin sale. I dont see how that is possible.

kranky · April 14, 2011 5:02AM

<< 

<< Great discussion! People tend to brag about their successes and tend to hide their mistakes. It's good to see some people talking about some very bad coin purchase decisions. I suspect that there are a lot more stories that people aren't mentioning. >>

Some board members claim to have never lost money on a coin sale. I dont see how that is possible. >>

One way would be to choose not to sell any coins you can't make a profit on.

TPRC · April 14, 2011 5:28AM

Thank you all.....I feel strangely better now.

FredWeinberg · April 14, 2011 5:39AM

No, there was no insurance for it.

"Mysterious Disapearance" is generally
not covered in Insurance Policies.

I guess, looking back at the value of
it thenand now, I'm certainly glad I
didn't throw it away today!

ColonelJessup · April 14, 2011 8:33AM

Fred,

Did I buy the stupidly graded 11-D $10 (63 later 64) from that Superior sale for 30k+?

Bowers sold an 1801 S$1 NGC66CAM maybe 4 years ago for about $700K all in that had previously retailed to the consignor for $1,100,000.

There were some really bodacious losses in 1991-1992 when various collateralization programs pulled the plug.

In 1989 this little piggy remembered from 1982 that Gary Fitzgerald had bought the Eliasberg 1795 $10. I can still remember AJT , whom I guess had bought the coin at the sale, walking around the Boston show, showing the coin in a fresh burger bun. "1795 $10, from an original roll".

Having paid $170K I knew I had a winner. I had a winner when I turned down Marty Haber's $250K offer at CSNS. I had a winner when I turned down Jay MIller's $310K offer at Long Beach because Les Polansky wanted it on memo to show Iraj at $375K. 3 weeks later I was dead meat.

Oink, oink oink.

Sold in late 1990 for $88K to Sil who quick-flipped it to Ed Milas for Marvin Brower.

Leveraging is a really really cool way to lose money on anything, but the liquidity factor for coins makes them special.

Lakesammman · April 14, 2011 9:27AM

The most impressive thing to me is your memories of the deals from so long ago - I buy golf shirts in pro-shops to remind me of where I've been.

Mission16 · April 14, 2011 10:23AM

<< The most impressive thing to me is your memories of the deals from so long ago - I buy golf shirts in pro-shops to remind me of where I've been.

>>

Man, I dunno. I would have a very hard time trying to forget some of those deals! And I would try very hard too!

PutTogether · April 17, 2011 5:04PM

My worst was a very dramatically toned peace dollar. A 1922 in an NGC MS63ish holder. Pretty colored peace dollars can go for multiples of sheet, and I was happy to pay $800ish for the coin. When I got it in hand, I realized the seller had altered his pictures beyond all recognition. To be fair, i knew the pics were altered, but thought that I could still interpret what I thought the coin would look like in hand. I was wrong. I sent it to a member here to have real pics taken, and sold it on ebay with a real description and real pics. It sold for $350ish if I remember right. After ebay fees and such, $400 net loss, 58% or so.

It made for a very interesting couple of threads on this forum. When I posted the REAL pictures of what they coin looked like, the guy who had sold it to me chimed in with what an ugly coin it was, and how I wanted too much money for it. Awesome, especially since I had bought it from him 3 weeks before.

You live and learn.

What's the biggest loss you've ever heard of a collector/dealer incurring when they sold a coin?

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