1849 Dahlonega Gold Dollar?

Frankcoins · March 21, 2011 2:04AM

Am I correct that a "D" mintmark resides under the mount stub on this 1849 gold dollar?

RYK · March 21, 2011 2:25AM

Admittedly, i am viewing your image in my iPad, but I do not see a "D".

Frankcoins · March 21, 2011 2:27AM

<< Admittedly, i am viewing your image in my iPad, but I do not see a "D". >>

You can't see it. But is it there?

llafoe · March 21, 2011 2:29AM

What is that? Some type of jewelry mount?

Frankcoins · March 21, 2011 2:40AM

<< What is that? Some type of jewelry mount? >>

Was once a stick pin, like this:

PerryHall · March 21, 2011 2:45AM

The obverse has some very distinct die markers in the way of raised bumps especially around the stars. Check out the star at 2:00. They may be caused by die rust. If a D mintmarked coin can be found with the same markers, that would prove that there is a D under the mount. That jewelry mount appears to be attached with solder and a jeweler could probably remove it with a small jewers torch.

Staircoins · March 21, 2011 2:53AM

<< ... That jewelry mount appears to be attached with solder and a jeweler could probably remove it with a small jewers torch. >>

Would removing the mount with a torch risk discoloring the coin?

PerryHall · March 21, 2011 3:00AM

<< 

<< ... That jewelry mount appears to be attached with solder and a jeweler could probably remove it with a small jewers torch. >>

Would removing the mount with a torch risk discoloring the coin? >>

The solder has already discolored that coin and it will always be an ex-jewery problem coin. If removing the mount exposes the D mintmark, it'll at least increase this coin's worth.

Staircoins · March 21, 2011 3:09AM

<< 

<< 

<< ... That jewelry mount appears to be attached with solder and a jeweler could probably remove it with a small jewers torch. >>

Would removing the mount with a torch risk discoloring the coin? >>

The solder has already discolored that coin and it will always be an ex-jewery problem coin. If removing the mount exposes the D mintmark, it'll at least increase this coin's worth. >>

Yes - if it could be done without discoloring the obverse as well.

Looks like the stickpin was sawn off.

Frankcoins · March 21, 2011 3:09AM

I am about 100% sure it IS a Dahlonega piece. As Perry said, check the spur of the star at 2 o'clock with the known 1849-D obverse.

But I thought someone would instantly know.

Staircoins · March 21, 2011 3:14AM

<< I am about 100% sure it IS a Dahlonega piece. As Perry said, check the spur of the star at 2 o'clock with the known 1849-D obverse. >>

The stars at 4, 6, 7 & 8 o'clock also match.
I'd say the coins were struck from the same die.

ambro51 · March 21, 2011 4:25AM

Between my Breen and Bowers References, I find enough points your coin has to feel pretty confident saying its a Dahlonega piece.

Here are a few of the items in the texts:

....from Breen Major Varieties of Gold Dollars.. "1849 D

Mintage 21,588 from two pairs of open wreath (Type III) dies sent sometime in June 1849 (the exact date is not on record). The "recutting" on the obverses of many D mint coins--Stars and Profile--is not from hand retooling bur from several blows of the hub in the die, at Philadelphia. Why the more unsightly instances of this kind of thing went to the Southern branch mints is uncertain; possibly this was considered as better than throwing away the dies unsuitable for Philadelphia coins.

1849 D-1 Double outlines as above mentioned, especially obvious at chin and neck. Rev. Normal letters. Melish 1701. Very Scarce

1849 D-2 Same obv. die. Rev. Heavy double outlines at STATES. This reverse later shatters, many fine cracks being visible. Melish 1702.

No impression of the second obverse die is known. Probably it was savced for 1850. In later years the Philadelphia Mint would send only date sides to the southern branch mints, there being enough old obversesleft over to make the entire coinage for the year."

..........Bowers has a few things to say also, here are a few;

"The coinage of 1849 D gold dollars probably commenced, on a test basis on July 11. Two specimens were sent on July 12 to Philadelphia for inspection, with Superintendant James F. Copper commenting. "I am enabled to report to you the first coinage of gold dollars at this Mint and to send you two specimens of our coin...All [of the mint employees] were desirous of giving me the honor of uttering the first gold dollar in Georgia before the arrival of mu successor in this office"

Mint Director Robert M. Patterson replied upon recweipt of the sample gold dollars "The Milling was too slight, the reverse is blurred due to polishing of the die before hardening, and the reverse if off center." This was hardly an auspicious beginning!

Regular coinage for circulation began on July 15, in August, the irregularities in alignment, die quality, etc., were corrected."

...Bowers also states there were five seperate periods of coinage, of several thousand each, from july to december of 1849. So, it is pretty obvious rust could indeed take hold on a die, and give these rust pits. Since only one die was used, the pits may change in size, but not location. The reverse on your coin does appear to be slightly off center, with less of a margin toward the top. And, like Patterson says, the reverse seems to be blurred..... Also, as Breen notes, there are die cracks on your coin, which I imagine you can locate on archive images of other 49Ds. Shouldnt be difficult at all.

all in all, seems like these indicators point to your coin as a Dahlonega piece.

Staircoins · March 21, 2011 5:56AM

I still think I'd like the coin more if the mount were removed, and the 'D' were visible.

lordmarcovan · March 21, 2011 8:52AM

Wow, they sure had blatant disregard for future numismatists, didn't they?

Cool piece, regardless. I would think that solder could be removed... carefully.

PS-You aren't the only one who has a Type 1 gold dollar with a tantalizing Southern mintmark...

Many of you will remember my 1851 (-C? -O?) holey.

Frankcoins · March 21, 2011 12:24PM

Thanks for all your help. I talked to a jeweler locally who is familiar with how these are made, and was
told that most likely a starter hole was drilled -- right where the mintmark is -- to mount the pin. So
removing the remnant would likely result in a partial hole, and still no mintmark.

HoledandCreative · March 21, 2011 2:58PM

The star at 2 matches my D obverse star. No similarity to stars on the P and O obverses. I don't have a C to compare. If a jeweler can remove the solder, go for it. You can always fill with a little gold-colored metal if you don't care for the results.

PonyPuller · March 21, 2011 3:53PM

I came across a piece like that a year or so ago, but it had a funny "polished" look to it. I asked a jeweler friend of mine to remove the pin (mounted dead center on the reverse), and it turned out the piece was made of plated lead. The lead interior melted out and ran out the hole while he worked on it, and left a hollow shell of gold metal.

Not entirely a surprise, given the odd appearance to the piece.

- Mark

ambro51 · March 21, 2011 11:54PM

yeah its ashamed. looks like a nice high AU piece, probably was mounted and never saw much use. Odd that it was NOT unmounted and used for money at some point...maybe thrown in with a bunch of costume jewelry and unrecognized as gold?

Frank, I dont think there is a hole under that solder. Just my thoughts.....heat will discolor the coin though, but I see bringing this up to 500 degrees or so, slightly above the melting point of lead, and using a copper wick and flux to draw the solder off.

Too bad though that whoever removed this made those two honking huge scrapes/file marks on the reverse rim.

PerryHall · March 22, 2011 12:05AM

If that coin was mine I'd send it to Alan Stockton to have the mount removed and the area around the mintmark cleaned up. He does excellent restoration work.

BillJones · March 22, 2011 12:28AM

Here is a PCGS graded 1849-D gold dollar you can use for comparison ...

I think that your coin probably is a Dahlonega piece.

PerryHall · March 22, 2011 5:34AM

Frank---Let us know what you decide and, if you do remove the mount, it would be interesting to see the results.

Frankcoins · March 31, 2011 9:39AM

<< Frank---Let us know what you decide and, if you do remove the mount, it would be interesting to see the results. >>

I am going to let someone else mess with it. It's up on my eBay listing in my sig link, one cent start.

fivecents · March 31, 2011 10:00AM

Looks like with that die marker the coin can be left alone. It is a lock dahlonega coin.

ambro51 · March 31, 2011 10:21AM

...probably wise.

imagine though it the coin had shown the diagnostics for the open wreath charlotte.....but with that solder there.

ummmmmmm

HoledandCreative · March 31, 2011 2:55PM

I wish it still had the stickpin attached. Neat item.

Frankcoins · April 10, 2011 5:36AM

<< Looks like with that die marker the coin can be left alone. It is a lock dahlonega coin. >>

Not in somebody's opinion....

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Dear frankcoins,

I am very sorry to inform you that this coin is not a D mint coin. I have
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1849 Dahlonega Gold Dollar?

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