<< <i>While I see two key PCGS dealers, Seth & Mitch, here, may I ask this question as it relates to 2011 Lincoln cents that are holdered by PCGS. Why are dealers still ordering the Lincolns with the Shield reverse showing on the FRONT of the holder? It made sense in 2009 with four different designs. It was maybe OK in 2010 because of the first year of a new design. But this is 2011. The front view does NOT show the date OR the mintmark. For the forseeable future the Shield reverse will be on the cent. For ALL years from 1909 thru 2008 PCGS showed the Lincoln obverse on the FRONT of their holders. They've done that since they started in 1986. I know that individual submitters can request the switch for their orders, BUT I am assuming the dealers think they will sell more of these with the Shield reverse on the front of the holder. I disagree. As a collector and as a participant in the Set Registry, I want my Lincoln Cent PCGS holdered coins to show Lincoln's face on the front of the holder. Can you guys shed any light on this and/or get PCGS to switch back to the way they were? Thanks, Steve >>
Good point Steve. It's by dealer request. Maybe it's time to flip the coin back the right way.
<< While I see two key PCGS dealers, Seth & Mitch, here, may I ask this question as it relates to 2011 Lincoln cents that are holdered by PCGS. Why are dealers still ordering the Lincolns with the Shield reverse showing on the FRONT of the holder? It made sense in 2009 with four different designs. It was maybe OK in 2010 because of the first year of a new design. But this is 2011. The front view does NOT show the date OR the mintmark. For the forseeable future the Shield reverse will be on the cent. For ALL years from 1909 thru 2008 PCGS showed the Lincoln obverse on the FRONT of their holders. They've done that since they started in 1986. I know that individual submitters can request the switch for their orders, BUT I am assuming the dealers think they will sell more of these with the Shield reverse on the front of the holder. I disagree. As a collector and as a participant in the Set Registry, I want my Lincoln Cent PCGS holdered coins to show Lincoln's face on the front of the holder. Can you guys shed any light on this and/or get PCGS to switch back to the way they were? Thanks, Steve >>
When the 2009 Native Sacagawea's began grading through at PCGS we received several orders that had Sacagawea showing on the front of the slab just as they do for 2000 - 2008. A switch was made a few orders into it to show the new design on the front of the slab. Make sense, I think so. Each year has a different design, so why not show it. 2009 Lincoln's, 4 different designs so show them and PCGS did. If the Shied Lincoln design is going to continue than IMHO Lincoln should show on the front of the slab once again as they did for so many years of the Wheat and memorial reverses. It’s not to late to get the 2011’s switched !!!!
<< <i>Seth - I edited my post before I read your comment.
Listen, PCGS screened coins can ALSO command great money as you are well aware. I believe a PCGS screened FDI example just fetched a TON of money from roughly a mere 200 or so coin order (although my particular Johnson order you mentioned twice was more than "100 - 200 coins"). The great coins can come from the personal screening efforts we all have done or the bulk screening efforts of the grading company staff. I enjoy doing the personal screening efforts wherever possible as it is very rewarding to find that great coin, as you are well aware.
Wondercoin >>
Consumer Awareness: Unless the coin is "truly" rare as in low #s of coins in existence like a lot of classic coins, they typically are traded on their quality. In this case the Mint produced plenty of Johnson coins and we're not talking about error coins. So the issue at hand is the question of whether a couple hundred coins submitted for grading that cost little over face value before grading should all be worth significant premiums even for the bottom "easy" coin in the order. My example would be that MS65s are considered fairly common but still have a grading fee attached and fees in the sale. They sell for $59.95 as a 4coin set. Given new information from Mitch's submission, the bottom coin there happens to be MS66 and currently selling by one of his resellers for about $60 per coin. Sounds cheap for a conditionally rare coin when you consider that one dealer may have all 65s on their order and 1 or 2 MS66 coins. On the other hand if you have a submission like Mitch's turned out and you have all MS66 coins "a plenty" and a good handful of MS67s, you might ask why pay $60 per coin for a coin that otherwise appears common to that dealer's cost/effort. Usually grade rarity is how premiums are established. In this situation the grade rarity is different for 2 different dealers and we all wonder what the next 200 coins submitted will look like.
Another example : A customer offered us $450 on a 2011 P&D Presidential 16coin PCGS MS67 Pos A&B Set today. (NOT FDI - They are Mint Set coins.) At $28 per coin I was happy to accept the offer. I don't know that they are particularly rare but are somewhat expensive to put all 16 varieties together or they would have been lower priced like the same set in MS66. (You have pay for a lot of mint sets in order to make a 16coin set.) In price contrast, the FDI program has shown a bit of interest where the consumer is willing to pay significant premiums for the same coin in a holder that says "FDI" with the same grade. If both coins were in your hand, they technically are the same. I have yet to hold a 2011 FDI President in PCGS MS67. I probably couldn't sell it for $28 if I did.
All in all, the common grade coins typically trade for very small margins and the grade up coins tend to bring in stronger interest by buyers who want the finest. I sincerely hope that our next submissions of Johnson coins for the FDI label will come back like Mitch's order did and we can bring some sense into the pricing of the product. It would be nice to see the spread in value between 2011 FDI and 2011 Mint Set coins come closer together so that the consumer is not faced with a decision over the label. Mitch is a for profit dealer and should charge something for his time. My comments might appear to be poor timing for his sales but yet necessary to illustrate the situation for the consumer. We were all blindsighted by this occurrence and sometimes it takes effort to make sense of all puzzle pieces.
Seth: You mentioned that you charged your customers $75/coin for MS66 FDI Johnson coins when you had them first on ebay. As you know, that was roughly double what the prior President was priced at in the same grade. You must have thought they were scarce or something like that? I assume you surely did not consider that scores of additional coins would come out shortly thereafter; otherwise you may have sold them all at $20/coin as you suggest you may do in the future should you get a bunch in from here. I have sold my coins for a tiny fraction of that price. I have no resellers for these coins. Just like when you sold the Buchanan MS67 coins (for whch we bought 4 coins in the open market), my buyers are free to ask any price they want for the coins.. they own them outright. If they are asking $60/coin, that is their business entirely. Likewise, on the MS67 coins I have sold already. What they ask is their business.
As you know, recently a Pres $1, which I believe came from a PCGS screened couple hundred coin order, fetched a TON of money at auction. If that was the case, that dealer had perhaps less than $50 "invested" in the coin. EPIC SCORE!! If I chose to submit 500 coins to PCGS tomorrow of that Presdident and SCORED with a few MS67 coins, I could bring some "sense into the pricing of the product" as well. Just as I brought "sense" into the pricing of the MS66 Johnson coins over the past 36 hours when I sold off most of my coins for a tiny fraction of what your original coins fetched. But, the only thing is ... one never knows what one will grade out in the future. I would like to bring sense to the crazy price of the 1999 PA-D quarter in MS68 (to name just one coin out of the myriad I am constantly trying to slab) ... but I have been trying for 10+ years to find that one (although I have found many MS67 in that time just 1 point away)! Oh, by the way, I want to bring sense to the MS69 DEL P price as well.
We can go back and forth all day. Suffice it to say, when you do get lucky and find your glory brick of this or that President (including Johnson), I understand that prices may likely fall after you sell them off.
Wondercoin
P.S. Edited to add ... I just saw on ebay that yet another pair of MS66 coins just sold for $120. Now the folks who bought the coins from me are making MORE money than I made slabbing these "glory" coins!! LOL. And, the $75 original price per coin isn't looking too bad either.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>I would like to bring sense to the crazy price of the 1999 PA-D quarter in MS68 (to name just one coin out of the myriad I am constantly trying to slab) ... but I have been trying for 10+ years to find that one (although I have found many MS67 in that time just 1 point away)! Oh, by the way, I want to bring sense to the MS69 DEL P price as well. >>
<< <i>First, I am active on this thread only as it relates to Pres Dollars. I am not doing much with Lincoln cents these days and have not for years. So, hopefully, MAS can chime in as not only is he a strong Pres Dollar dealer as well, but also (IMHO) the 'KING" of business strike state quarters, Lincoln cents, etc. these days. Wondercoin >>
Thanks Mitch, We all have found and graded some really nice coins over the years, some just stand out a bit more than others
<< <i>Seth: You mentioned that you charged your customers $75/coin for MS66 FDI Johnson coins when you had them first on ebay. As you know, that was roughly double what the prior President was priced at in the same grade. You must have thought they were scarce or something like that? I assume you surely did not consider that scores of additional coins would come out shortly thereafter; otherwise you may have sold them all at $20/coin as you suggest you may do in the future should you get a bunch in from here. I have sold my coins for a tiny fraction of that price. I have no resellers for these coins. Just like when you sold the Buchanan MS67 coins (for whch we bought 4 coins in the open market), my buyers are free to ask any price they want for the coins.. they own them outright. If they are asking $60/coin, that is their business entirely. Likewise, on the MS67 coins I have sold already. What they ask is their business.
As you know, recently a Pres $1, which I believe came from a PCGS screened couple hundred coin order, fetched a TON of money at auction. If that was the case, that dealer had perhaps less than $50 "invested" in the coin. EPIC SCORE!! If I chose to submit 500 coins to PCGS tomorrow of that Presdident and SCORED with a few MS67 coins, I could bring some "sense into the pricing of the product" as well. Just as I brought "sense" into the pricing of the MS66 Johnson coins over the past 36 hours when I sold off most of my coins for a tiny fraction of what your original coins fetched. But, the only thing is ... one never knows what one will grade out in the future. I would like to bring sense to the crazy price of the 1999 PA-D quarter in MS68 (to name just one coin out of the myriad I am constantly trying to slab) ... but I have been trying for 10+ years to find that one (although I have found many MS67 in that time just 1 point away)! Oh, by the way, I want to bring sense to the MS69 DEL P price as well.
We can go back and forth all day. Suffice it to say, when you do get lucky and find your glory brick of this or that President (including Johnson), I understand that prices may likely fall after you sell them off.
Wondercoin >>
Mitchell:
You are such a good lawyer. It's time to take the veil off and quit dancing around holding an apple next to the orange and convincing jury that they're both mangos! LOL
You know full well what our grades were on Johnson early on. We would not charge more than necessary being first or not. If our submissions were exactly opposite we would have started out at no more than $20/per coin RETAIL in the market. You failed to point out that these are "common" coins in your submission of unsearched coins and had any of us received your order they would not be $60/coin in the market. Perhaps this idea of "no resellers" needs clarification. You have sold wholesale quantities to other dealers who are reselling for a high price given current information. Yes they are capable of selling for whatever price they choose but you as the wholesaler do have a lot more information than perhaps they do. It's easy to sell coins like that quickly for a "great discount" when the perception of rarity is there. Your coins sold quick enough that the perception hasn't caught up with reality so someone (besides you) will be the last person standing when no chairs are left. Let's not forget the timeline of information flow. In the beginning, the grading numbers suggested one rarity picture. You have the most recent information that suggests you have made previously uncommon coins to be very common. Had I known what would transpire, perhaps the resellers out there would be competing with others as more traditional levels. Many people do not know this and will buy with misinformation.
There is a difference between an epic score and your submission. I do not believe your submission to be an epic score in the sense you are using. You didn't find one glory coin. Your ENTIRE ORDER trumped all other orders as if they were night and day different. This doesn't just happen with 1999 quarters. I challenge you to submit the rest of your D-brick of $1000 coins and prove this "miracle brick". If you are correct that it's a miracle brick following established guidelines and everyone else has "junk" in comparison, then the rest of the box will be loaded with money for you. I will then say congratulations on your miracle.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Ok, to everyone else that cares to read this thread:
My interest in this discussion is not over one product and it's profitability. It would be arguable that I've spent a rediculous amount of time with this debate instead of tending to other matters like customers who have asked me to quote them on coins they want to buy for premiums I am happy to work hard for. (Sorry guys.) Rather I saw a serious situation develop where the consumer is greatly confused. If anyone cares to read the posts that transpired until now, you will see the theme is consumer awareness for this debate. Unfortunately there is a bit of a situation where my opponent in this debate is on the defense. Usually he's asking the questions and now he's in the witness box where I've been a bit hard on him. Sorry it had to be this way because it has obviously made him unconfortable. I think he means well but this debate is necessary to bring light to the situation. It especially points out that nobody has a crystal ball about the future or how grades will come out on submitted coins. I think what's important is that when something happens we are willing to call a duck a duck and move on. Mr. Spivack of course wants his situation in the best possible light as we all do so the discussion needed a little more attention in order to iron out some finer points. I'll quit poking at him and move on. Hopefully the debate has served it's purpose.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX And to Mitch: You have the floor counsel. You can have the final word but don't try to take off my head... and I'll leave it be.
EDITED TO CLEAN UP GOOD HUMORED JABS AT MR. SPIVACK --> He's a lawyer so I might get sued!
Seth: First off, serving you with the lawsuit won't be all too difficult since I know you eat at Dave's Mexican restaurant in Dana Point quite often!
Honestly Seth, I have no idea who will be "standing" when there are no more chairs. Just in the course of the last 30 minutes, a dealer with a keen knowledge of the Pres. Dollar market essentially asked to buy me out of all of my remaining MS66 FDI Johnson coins and after our deal, I have no more MS66 coins available at this time. I have less than half of the MS67 coins remaining to be sold as well. Would you like a special deal on a pair for your registry set my friend?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I'll keep working on my 67s for the registry. Thanks for the offer though! ...and it's Fred's. Mmmmmm. --> I saw Magic Johnson there once. That is one big fella.
I think the 66 FDI coins of past issues are going to dry up a bit too. I have a limited quantity and just had another customer come in asking for "best available" coins for their registry. I'm not sure how to replace all those 66s and some 67s when 65s are the norm.
"I think the 66 FDI coins of past issues are going to dry up a bit too. I have a limited quantity and just had another customer come in asking for "best available" coins for their registry. I'm not sure how to replace all those 66s and some 67s when 65s are the norm."
I know that we have produced perhaps 10% or 20% of the quantity of coins we had been doing a few years back. But, just look at that chart that Lee put up regarding FDI coins. Obviously, we are not alone in the cutback production. One problem is that nearly all the coins often come back at the min. grade (which is often times a losing proposition). It should be interesting to see if the FDI demand grows or "dies" with the introduction of the mint set coins ... now coming full circle back to the actual question behind this thread.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>" It should be interesting to see if the FDI demand grows or "dies" with the introduction of the mint set coins ... now coming full circle back to the actual question behind this thread.
Wondercoin >>
As a collector, this is the question that I am wrestling with. Now that the mint sets are starting to show up in 2011 with strong grades (at least the bunting labels), it comes down to whether I want to collect the coin or the label. With only so much money to spend on my collection, the argument to pay a premium to maintain a top FDI set, does not outweigh paying a premium for a run of the mill holder in a higher grade. I can not see myself doing both, as I have other sets besides the Presidentials that I am working on. I never got caught up chasing top grade satin finishes for this reason, I am satisfied to collect them at a grade below the top. I will probably end up doing that with FDI's in the future. I will probably still maintain my FDI sets, but not necessarily with top pops, assuming higher graded coins are available in other holders.
I am not sure if other collectors are wrestling with this same issue or not. I assume collectors that are focused on Presidentials only, may still buy strongly in all sets including FDI's. It will be interesting to watch the next year.
Edit: Actually, someday I actually may go after higher grade satin finishes, because they are required in my complete dollar set. FDI's are not required in that set.
Sonoranmonsoon - Thank you for that analysis purely from the collector standpoint. I know Justin is wrestling with a number of questions as well in this series right now. But, deciding whether he should keep his Chemistry major or change it to Music (since he has composed a few sensational compositions at this point) and/or possible transfer to Stanford trumps what needs to happen with 2011 coins!!
Wondercoin
edited to add ... in the meantime his Big Sis does his screening!!
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Just to report in our last P & D orders of Johnson were almost all 65s and a few 66 coins in there. Waiting for another miracle order from Mitch but I think that might have been a lucky day.
I hope everyone ordered their 2010 Hot Springs 5oz coin from the mint today. Looks like they will sell out before the day is over...
Comments
<< <i>While I see two key PCGS dealers, Seth & Mitch, here, may I ask this question as it relates to 2011 Lincoln cents that are holdered by PCGS. Why are dealers still ordering the Lincolns with the Shield reverse showing on the FRONT of the holder? It made sense in 2009 with four different designs. It was maybe OK in 2010 because of the first year of a new design. But this is 2011. The front view does NOT show the date OR the mintmark. For the forseeable future the Shield reverse will be on the cent. For ALL years from 1909 thru 2008 PCGS showed the Lincoln obverse on the FRONT of their holders. They've done that since they started in 1986. I know that individual submitters can request the switch for their orders, BUT I am assuming the dealers think they will sell more of these with the Shield reverse on the front of the holder. I disagree. As a collector and as a participant in the Set Registry, I want my Lincoln Cent PCGS holdered coins to show Lincoln's face on the front of the holder. Can you guys shed any light on this and/or get PCGS to switch back to the way they were? Thanks,
Steve
Good point Steve. It's by dealer request. Maybe it's time to flip the coin back the right way.
Seth
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Wondercoin
Steve >>
When the 2009 Native Sacagawea's began grading through at PCGS we received several orders that had Sacagawea showing on the front of the slab just as they do for 2000 - 2008. A switch was made a few orders into it to show the new design on the front of the slab. Make sense, I think so. Each year has a different design, so why not show it. 2009 Lincoln's, 4 different designs so show them and PCGS did. If the Shied Lincoln design is going to continue than IMHO Lincoln should show on the front of the slab once again as they did for so many years of the Wheat and memorial reverses. It’s not to late to get the 2011’s switched !!!!
<< <i>Seth - I edited my post before I read your comment.
Listen, PCGS screened coins can ALSO command great money as you are well aware. I believe a PCGS screened FDI example just fetched a TON of money from roughly a mere 200 or so coin order (although my particular Johnson order you mentioned twice was more than "100 - 200 coins"). The great coins can come from the personal screening efforts we all have done or the bulk screening efforts of the grading company staff. I enjoy doing the personal screening efforts wherever possible as it is very rewarding to find that great coin, as you are well aware.
Wondercoin >>
Consumer Awareness: Unless the coin is "truly" rare as in low #s of coins in existence like a lot of classic coins, they typically are traded on their quality. In this case the Mint produced plenty of Johnson coins and we're not talking about error coins. So the issue at hand is the question of whether a couple hundred coins submitted for grading that cost little over face value before grading should all be worth significant premiums even for the bottom "easy" coin in the order. My example would be that MS65s are considered fairly common but still have a grading fee attached and fees in the sale. They sell for $59.95 as a 4coin set. Given new information from Mitch's submission, the bottom coin there happens to be MS66 and currently selling by one of his resellers for about $60 per coin. Sounds cheap for a conditionally rare coin when you consider that one dealer may have all 65s on their order and 1 or 2 MS66 coins. On the other hand if you have a submission like Mitch's turned out and you have all MS66 coins "a plenty" and a good handful of MS67s, you might ask why pay $60 per coin for a coin that otherwise appears common to that dealer's cost/effort. Usually grade rarity is how premiums are established. In this situation the grade rarity is different for 2 different dealers and we all wonder what the next 200 coins submitted will look like.
Another example : A customer offered us $450 on a 2011 P&D Presidential 16coin PCGS MS67 Pos A&B Set today. (NOT FDI - They are Mint Set coins.) At $28 per coin I was happy to accept the offer. I don't know that they are particularly rare but are somewhat expensive to put all 16 varieties together or they would have been lower priced like the same set in MS66. (You have pay for a lot of mint sets in order to make a 16coin set.) In price contrast, the FDI program has shown a bit of interest where the consumer is willing to pay significant premiums for the same coin in a holder that says "FDI" with the same grade. If both coins were in your hand, they technically are the same. I have yet to hold a 2011 FDI President in PCGS MS67. I probably couldn't sell it for $28 if I did.
All in all, the common grade coins typically trade for very small margins and the grade up coins tend to bring in stronger interest by buyers who want the finest. I sincerely hope that our next submissions of Johnson coins for the FDI label will come back like Mitch's order did and we can bring some sense into the pricing of the product. It would be nice to see the spread in value between 2011 FDI and 2011 Mint Set coins come closer together so that the consumer is not faced with a decision over the label. Mitch is a for profit dealer and should charge something for his time. My comments might appear to be poor timing for his sales but yet necessary to illustrate the situation for the consumer. We were all blindsighted by this occurrence and sometimes it takes effort to make sense of all puzzle pieces.
Sincerely,
Seth
As you know, recently a Pres $1, which I believe came from a PCGS screened couple hundred coin order, fetched a TON of money at auction. If that was the case, that dealer had perhaps less than $50 "invested" in the coin. EPIC SCORE!! If I chose to submit 500 coins to PCGS tomorrow of that Presdident and SCORED with a few MS67 coins, I could bring some "sense into the pricing of the product" as well. Just as I brought "sense" into the pricing of the MS66 Johnson coins over the past 36 hours when I sold off most of my coins for a tiny fraction of what your original coins fetched. But, the only thing is ... one never knows what one will grade out in the future. I would like to bring sense to the crazy price of the 1999 PA-D quarter in MS68 (to name just one coin out of the myriad I am constantly trying to slab) ... but I have been trying for 10+ years to find that one (although I have found many MS67 in that time just 1 point away)! Oh, by the way, I want to bring sense to the MS69 DEL P price as well.
We can go back and forth all day. Suffice it to say, when you do get lucky and find your glory brick of this or that President (including Johnson), I understand that prices may likely fall after you sell them off.
Wondercoin
P.S. Edited to add ... I just saw on ebay that yet another pair of MS66 coins just sold for $120. Now the folks who bought the coins from me are making MORE money than I made slabbing these "glory" coins!! LOL. And, the $75 original price per coin isn't looking too bad either.
<< <i>I would like to bring sense to the crazy price of the 1999 PA-D quarter in MS68 (to name just one coin out of the myriad I am constantly trying to slab) ... but I have been trying for 10+ years to find that one (although I have found many MS67 in that time just 1 point away)! Oh, by the way, I want to bring sense to the MS69 DEL P price as well. >>
<< <i>First, I am active on this thread only as it relates to Pres Dollars. I am not doing much with Lincoln cents these days and have not for years. So, hopefully, MAS can chime in as not only is he a strong Pres Dollar dealer as well, but also (IMHO) the 'KING" of business strike state quarters, Lincoln cents, etc. these days. Wondercoin >>
Thanks Mitch,
We all have found and graded some really nice coins over the years, some just stand out a bit more than others
<< <i>Seth: You mentioned that you charged your customers $75/coin for MS66 FDI Johnson coins when you had them first on ebay. As you know, that was roughly double what the prior President was priced at in the same grade. You must have thought they were scarce or something like that? I assume you surely did not consider that scores of additional coins would come out shortly thereafter; otherwise you may have sold them all at $20/coin as you suggest you may do in the future should you get a bunch in from here. I have sold my coins for a tiny fraction of that price. I have no resellers for these coins. Just like when you sold the Buchanan MS67 coins (for whch we bought 4 coins in the open market), my buyers are free to ask any price they want for the coins.. they own them outright. If they are asking $60/coin, that is their business entirely. Likewise, on the MS67 coins I have sold already. What they ask is their business.
As you know, recently a Pres $1, which I believe came from a PCGS screened couple hundred coin order, fetched a TON of money at auction. If that was the case, that dealer had perhaps less than $50 "invested" in the coin. EPIC SCORE!! If I chose to submit 500 coins to PCGS tomorrow of that Presdident and SCORED with a few MS67 coins, I could bring some "sense into the pricing of the product" as well. Just as I brought "sense" into the pricing of the MS66 Johnson coins over the past 36 hours when I sold off most of my coins for a tiny fraction of what your original coins fetched. But, the only thing is ... one never knows what one will grade out in the future. I would like to bring sense to the crazy price of the 1999 PA-D quarter in MS68 (to name just one coin out of the myriad I am constantly trying to slab) ... but I have been trying for 10+ years to find that one (although I have found many MS67 in that time just 1 point away)! Oh, by the way, I want to bring sense to the MS69 DEL P price as well.
We can go back and forth all day. Suffice it to say, when you do get lucky and find your glory brick of this or that President (including Johnson), I understand that prices may likely fall after you sell them off.
Wondercoin >>
Mitchell:
You are such a good lawyer. It's time to take the veil off and quit dancing around holding an apple next to the orange and convincing jury that they're both mangos! LOL
You know full well what our grades were on Johnson early on. We would not charge more than necessary being first or not. If our submissions were exactly opposite we would have started out at no more than $20/per coin RETAIL in the market. You failed to point out that these are "common" coins in your submission of unsearched coins and had any of us received your order they would not be $60/coin in the market. Perhaps this idea of "no resellers" needs clarification. You have sold wholesale quantities to other dealers who are reselling for a high price given current information. Yes they are capable of selling for whatever price they choose but you as the wholesaler do have a lot more information than perhaps they do. It's easy to sell coins like that quickly for a "great discount" when the perception of rarity is there. Your coins sold quick enough that the perception hasn't caught up with reality so someone (besides you) will be the last person standing when no chairs are left. Let's not forget the timeline of information flow. In the beginning, the grading numbers suggested one rarity picture. You have the most recent information that suggests you have made previously uncommon coins to be very common. Had I known what would transpire, perhaps the resellers out there would be competing with others as more traditional levels. Many people do not know this and will buy with misinformation.
There is a difference between an epic score and your submission. I do not believe your submission to be an epic score in the sense you are using. You didn't find one glory coin. Your ENTIRE ORDER trumped all other orders as if they were night and day different. This doesn't just happen with 1999 quarters. I challenge you to submit the rest of your D-brick of $1000 coins and prove this "miracle brick". If you are correct that it's a miracle brick following established guidelines and everyone else has "junk" in comparison, then the rest of the box will be loaded with money for you. I will then say congratulations on your miracle.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Ok, to everyone else that cares to read this thread:
My interest in this discussion is not over one product and it's profitability. It would be arguable that I've spent a rediculous amount of time with this debate instead of tending to other matters like customers who have asked me to quote them on coins they want to buy for premiums I am happy to work hard for. (Sorry guys.) Rather I saw a serious situation develop where the consumer is greatly confused. If anyone cares to read the posts that transpired until now, you will see the theme is consumer awareness for this debate. Unfortunately there is a bit of a situation where my opponent in this debate is on the defense. Usually he's asking the questions and now he's in the witness box where I've been a bit hard on him. Sorry it had to be this way because it has obviously made him unconfortable. I think he means well but this debate is necessary to bring light to the situation. It especially points out that nobody has a crystal ball about the future or how grades will come out on submitted coins. I think what's important is that when something happens we are willing to call a duck a duck and move on. Mr. Spivack of course wants his situation in the best possible light as we all do so the discussion needed a little more attention in order to iron out some finer points. I'll quit poking at him and move on. Hopefully the debate has served it's purpose.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
And to Mitch: You have the floor counsel. You can have the final word but don't try to take off my head... and I'll leave it be.
EDITED TO CLEAN UP GOOD HUMORED JABS AT MR. SPIVACK --> He's a lawyer so I might get sued!
Honestly Seth, I have no idea who will be "standing" when there are no more chairs. Just in the course of the last 30 minutes, a dealer with a keen knowledge of the Pres. Dollar market essentially asked to buy me out of all of my remaining MS66 FDI Johnson coins and after our deal, I have no more MS66 coins available at this time. I have less than half of the MS67 coins remaining to be sold as well. Would you like a special deal on a pair for your registry set my friend?
Wondercoin
I think the 66 FDI coins of past issues are going to dry up a bit too. I have a limited quantity and just had another customer come in asking for "best available" coins for their registry. I'm not sure how to replace all those 66s and some 67s when 65s are the norm.
Enjoy the sunshine!
Seth
I know that we have produced perhaps 10% or 20% of the quantity of coins we had been doing a few years back. But, just look at that chart that Lee put up regarding FDI coins. Obviously, we are not alone in the cutback production. One problem is that nearly all the coins often come back at the min. grade (which is often times a losing proposition). It should be interesting to see if the FDI demand grows or "dies" with the introduction of the mint set coins ... now coming full circle back to the actual question behind this thread.
Wondercoin
<< <i>" It should be interesting to see if the FDI demand grows or "dies" with the introduction of the mint set coins ... now coming full circle back to the actual question behind this thread.
Wondercoin >>
As a collector, this is the question that I am wrestling with. Now that the mint sets are starting to show up in 2011 with strong grades (at least the bunting labels), it comes down to whether I want to collect the coin or the label. With only so much money to spend on my collection, the argument to pay a premium to maintain a top FDI set, does not outweigh paying a premium for a run of the mill holder in a higher grade. I can not see myself doing both, as I have other sets besides the Presidentials that I am working on. I never got caught up chasing top grade satin finishes for this reason, I am satisfied to collect them at a grade below the top. I will probably end up doing that with FDI's in the future. I will probably still maintain my FDI sets, but not necessarily with top pops, assuming higher graded coins are available in other holders.
I am not sure if other collectors are wrestling with this same issue or not. I assume collectors that are focused on Presidentials only, may still buy strongly in all sets including FDI's. It will be interesting to watch the next year.
Edit: Actually, someday I actually may go after higher grade satin finishes, because they are required in my complete dollar set. FDI's are not required in that set.
Wondercoin
edited to add ... in the meantime his Big Sis does his screening!!
Just to report in our last P & D orders of Johnson were almost all 65s and a few 66 coins in there. Waiting for another miracle order from Mitch but I think that might have been a lucky day.
I hope everyone ordered their 2010 Hot Springs 5oz coin from the mint today. Looks like they will sell out before the day is over...
Seth