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Is FDI Dieing (I hope)
rogerdiehl
Posts: 97 ✭✭
I always disliked the whole First Day of Issue concept - seems pretty meaningless and petty to me.
But you can't fight success - the FDI's sell for more than the non-FDI's. And yes I buy some.
But - now that the Mint Sets are back to having business strike coins (instead of those ugly satin finish things), is that going to be the end of the FDI's. You can be a super nice 2011-D Glacier quarter right now - but the official release isn't until early next month - so what will FDI even mean?
I hope we some day get back to the meaningful basics - business strike, proofs - and that's it.
But you can't fight success - the FDI's sell for more than the non-FDI's. And yes I buy some.
But - now that the Mint Sets are back to having business strike coins (instead of those ugly satin finish things), is that going to be the end of the FDI's. You can be a super nice 2011-D Glacier quarter right now - but the official release isn't until early next month - so what will FDI even mean?
I hope we some day get back to the meaningful basics - business strike, proofs - and that's it.
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PCGS is slabbing them identically and assigning them the same PCGS number - so they don't feel that there is any difference.
I have compared the 2011 quarters taken from both Mint Sets and rolls, and I've compared the 2010 business strikes to the 2011's - I see no difference except in quality. I think the 2011's from the Mint Sets are double struck and pre-polished better, so we are seeing higher business strike grades.
That pretty much matches up with the way it was before 2005.
For the Presidential dollars, there are 10, MS68 business strikes on Ebay right now - that is 10 more than were graded MS68 in 2010 :-)
Now all I have to do is wait for the dealers to realize this same thing and bring all their prices down from the clouds :-)
Wondercoin
1. All of the Mint Set coins (now out in 2011 mint sets and probably from here on out) are being graded with the special mint set "bunting" label. They do not receive the FDI label which are reserved for coins being released in the $1,000 sealed bricks, etc. on the release date (or thereabouts) of that particular president. I believe I have now determined that the FDI coins will receive separate and different coin numbers. As a practical matter, the coins are essentially the same (mint set vs. brick coins) beginning with these 2011 pieces ... just that the Mint sets have super high grade specimens in them. MS67 coins are "a dime a dozen". MS68 specimens will likely be plentiful. MS69 coins should likely be very challenging. On the other hand, MS67 FDI coins for 2011 may still be super difficult to obtain from bricks, but who will care? If you can buy a mint set MS67 for $10 or $15, what should an FDI MS67 from a brick be worth in the 2011 and forward coins? Yes, they are different coin numbers so, no doubt, the FDI MS67 will likely still sell for more, but, you see my point.
2. The 2007-2010 FDI set is a "different animal" as the Mint sets contained satin finish coins. I was thinking about asking set registry next week to consider creating a special "short set" of these FDI coins for the 2007-2010 run (Washington through Lincoln). I ran this idea past one of the top dealers of these coins in the country today and he loved it. I also asked Justin what he thought (#1 business strike FDI setholder) and he liked the idea very much as well. Any thoughts from any other Pres $1 collectors or dealers?
Wondercoin
I think you are partially correct - heck you should know :-),
You are right in that the 2011 Dollars are coming out with different PCGS #'s for FDI and Non-FDI.
The Non-FDI, Andrew Johnson, 2011-P, Position A is #506506
The FDI, Andrew Johnson, 2011-P, Position A is #506509
The "bunting label" you mentioned though doesn't seem to indicate anything. The bunting label is being used on both Mint Set sourced coins and roll/bag sourced coins, so there really is no indication of where the coin came from. Which I think is absolutely perfect.
I haven't seen any Presidential dollars with bunting and "First Day of Issue". I don't know if that's intentional or just a coincidence.
Looking at the Presidential FDI dollars that are on Ebay (all MS65) and those that were sold (all MS65 and 3, MS66), I would say that the FDI concept will soon be retired. No dealer is going to waste that kind of money when non-FDI's are showing up as MS68 and MS67.
I think I'm the only person stupid enough to buy MS66's.
The only MS68 Presidential dollars I see currently on eBay are NGC ER (Early Release) coins. Early Release is NGC's counter to PCGS's First Strike™ yet FDI (First Day of Issue) remains exactly that, on or before the "official" Release Date of the coin. which is typically the day the US Mint Releases their over priced rolls.
Is FDI dying?
Andrew Johnson was released on 2/23 so its still too early to tell exactly how many dealers submitted these but, since PCGS restricted the FDI submissions to "Authorized Dealers" only, I predicted a long time ago that the program would taper off to nothing. ( REF ) First Submissions and then interest. Once interest drops and dealers are left holding their FDI Bags, it's conceivable that the program could get dropped. Unlikely but conceivable.
The current scenario is Bulk Submissions only which means $10.00 per coin in grading fee's excluding shipping and return shipping fee's. (Unless you can drive them there and drop em off and pick em up there.) Selling FDI MS65's is nearly impossible once the Registry Market has been satisfied (since there is no numismatic premium) and once those 60 or so folks have their coins then FDI is meaningless.
MS66 FDI coins do get a small premium over grading and eBay final value fee's unless MS66 is the highest, limited population grade, then the prices go stratospheric.
Now, the quality of the US Mint Sets has definitely increased BUT US Mint Set coins, IMO and under the current PCGS Rules regarding FDI, are not FDI qualified.
They don't qualify for First Strike™ either.
I'm also of the opinion that Presidential Dollars in General, will increase in popularity once the Federal Reserve Dollar gets eliminated.
Hopefully this will happen sooner than later!
As a Former FDI Presidential Dollar "enthusiast", I must admit that, when PCGS restricted FDI to Authorized Dealers ONLY, my enthusiasm has waned considerably since I could afford to get my own high grade coins submitted but cannot afford to pay inflated prices for already graded coins.
The name is LEE!
You were correct - Washington quarters don't do that "First Day of Issue" stuff on PCGS.
And thanks for telling me that only dealers can now submit for FDI - why does PCGS continue to have their way with the people that they seriously depend on - and I mean the collectors.
I don't like FDI because I feel that it is meaningless for collecting purposes, and that goes for the "First Strike" scam too. But I find it scummy when someone says that dealers can do something but the everyday collector isn't good enough to make a submission.
I ran into this same kind of thing with PCGS a while back, and I felt stabbed in the back.
<< <i>19Lyds,
You were correct - Washington quarters don't do that "First Day of Issue" stuff on PCGS.
And thanks for telling me that only dealers can now submit for FDI - why doesn PCGS continue to screw with the people that they seriously depend on - and I mean the collectors.
I don't like FDI because I feel that it is meaningless for collecting purposes, and that goes for the "First Strike" scam too. But I find it scummy when someone says that dealers can do something but the everyday collector isn't good enough to make a submission.
I ran into this same kind of thing with PCGS a while back, and I felt stabbed in the back.
You might want to reword this post and eliminate the "S" word.
As for First Strike™ and FDI labels, its true that both labels do not add numismatic value but they do add another dimension to the collecting of these which I believe was the entire purpose behind introducing the labels and folks certainly cannot fault PCGS for trying to make collecting interesting.
I agree that FDI should simply be opened up to the general public, just Like First Strike™ was, but then PCGS does have to offer some type of reward to its Authorized Dealers.
Have you seen the Kennedy Proof Portrait Labels? while these do not add numismatic value they do generate interest in an otherwise mundane set. I didn;t start purchasing proof Kennedy's until these came out.
The name is LEE!
Wondercoin
Wondercoin
Mitch,
Oh...now I see what you are saying. I didn't get it right.
So if someone sends in a Mint set they get the bunting label on the Presidential dollars. From the completed sales on Ebay that holds up.
I wonder what happens if I pop a Presidential dollar out of the Mint set and send it in a 2x2 flip?
Oh well, I guess it doesn't matter what the label looks like (as long as someone doesn't think that it adds to the value of the coin :-) )
Thanks,
Roger
Roger forwarded this post to me so I'll weigh in a little 2c worth. I don't come over to the forums much since I am very limited on time these days.
Our first 100 Mint Sets yielded (4) x MS68 Presidents. I've seen another dealer who by their listings apparently had more for their first 100 than I did. Funny thing is NGC 68s are looking to be very common on 2011 mint set coins yet putting together a MS67 set of 25c or 16coin President set is actually not as easy as it sounds. With the 25c I think the Ps weren't too hard in 67 but mostly 66 coins. However the Ds we only found 3 different varieties in MS67 which makes it really tough to give them away. With the Presidents all it takes is missing one variety of the 16coin set and you'll be out there like the competition selling them for $20ea hoping someone will buy and then go ask another dealer for the seemingly "tough" coin.
It sounds easy to submit 100 sets and voila you have "tough" MS67 and MS68 coins but then go try selling the other 2000 coins. I'll give you a free MS68 coin for every 500 MS66/MS67 coins you buy.
We did find a few D-68 Natives and one lonely P-68 Pos B, a couple P-68FB dimes and one D-68 kennedy. All this was our first 100 Sets so they may not be quite as "easy" to come by based on our results. Time will tell but I think when there is a widespread realization about the 2011 Mint Set, there will be a lot of collectors wishing they had bought their coins early for a good price. Remember a lot of collectors don't even realize the mint set is released and if they do, they're asking me every day where the satin coins are. Early bird gets the worm, but don't pay too much I say. If someone is asking too much (including me), it never hurts to state your case and make an offer. If they are snooty about it then they're in the wrong business.
Ok I gave up 3c worth.
Bye for now,
Seth
My point is the program is continuing with regular collectors that want to keep the continuity of their sets even when offered MS66 Mint Set coins for cheaper. I have offered collectors the whole 16 coin set in a bunting label MS66 for less than 66 FDI on JUST Johnson. They still told me to tell them when the 66FDI are available. Same coin? YES. Program still going though? YES. Odds are the population for Johnson will be a fraction of what you see for George Washington but the FDI keeps moving on. We sell what people ask to buy and won't submit them if there's no reason to.
That's all I know and then some,
Seth
1. FDI is NOT dying ... in fact, it is doing just fine
2. MS68 mint set coins will be available, but they may not get to be as cheap as some people believe they will become
Wondercoin
I think we have all agreed that:
If I send a Mint Set (or hundreds :-)) then PCGS will slab the Presidential dollars in those "bunting label" slabs.
If I send an individual Presidential dollar from a roll, in a 2x2 flip PCGS will slab it in a standard (not bunting label) slab.
What happens if I cherry pick individual Presidential dollars from a Mint Set - put them in a 2x2 flip and send them in? Will they get the "bunting label" or not?
Thanks in advance,
Roger
You will have a plain label if you cherry pick. Bunting is intended for larger bulk orders and the Presidential label for Proof Coins and the FDI program. I'm not saying you can't request otherwise but there should be a separation in labels to keep the confusion down to a dull roar.
Seth
Wondercoin
<< <i>The fact is, someone can screen 100 mint sets and submit the best 5 or 10 coins out of 400 coins through the regular service lines and end up with 5 or 10 MS68's and no MS67 coins. Or, possibly 5 or 10 MS66 coins if they do a bad job >>
That sounds like a good idea, maybe I'll give it a whirl
Without grading the 66's though
<< <i>Roger: I believe the coin would simply get a blue label. And, you identify the factor that might make the MS68 coins far cheaper than if it was just a pure situation of having to submit 400 coins from mint sets to try to slab an MS68 or two (and tons of MS67 coins to go along with them). The fact is, someone can screen 100 mint sets and submit the best 5 or 10 coins out of 400 coins through the regular service lines and end up with 5 or 10 MS68's and no MS67 coins. Or, possibly 5 or 10 MS66 coins if they do a bad job
Wondercoin >>
Mitch:
I'm pretty sure that if you spend $3200 on mint sets and cut them up + figure out what to do with the left over set + add in your time, you might have a big gamble on your hands especially if you don't find the 68s. Maybe worth a test on your part to see how it goes?? I'm sure if you were willing to report in with your test data everyone would be grateful.
With all the other dealers submitting full sets, maybe we just set you up for a killing.
Seth
Wondercoin
Time to hop in the forklift because I need to do some shipping. LOL
Wondercoin
<< <i>Coinfame: So, to summarize your posts... is this fair?
1. FDI is NOT dying ... in fact, it is doing just fine
2. MS68 mint set coins will be available, but they may not get to be as cheap as some people believe they will become
Wondercoin >>
Looks to me like only 4 or 5 dealers are submitting these anymore to supply only a handful of committed collectors as new collectors just don't seem to be coming on board.
To me, thats pretty much dead.
The name is LEE!
Wondercoin
Who has the 31,000 Washington coins??
Maybe we can sell the 200 Johnsons to those guys!!!
Wondercoin
<< <i>BIGGER QUESTION ....
Who has the 31,000 Washington coins??
Maybe we can sell the 200 Johnsons to those guys!!!
Wondercoin
I wish Mitch.
However, all is NOT lost because IF the Treasury Department and the current Administration decides to pull the plug (which they really should do anyway) in the $1 Federal Reserve Note, then these coins would begin to see HEAVY circulation which would most certainly spark interest similar to what the State Quarters did.
As it sits today, there are many, many, many folks who simply do not know of the different Dollar coins that are available today just because they never see them.
How many young numismatists are out there that would collect Presidential Dollars by President if they only knew about them?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Lee: Regarding the "FDI" Pres. Dollar coins, as far as I know, ANY collectors club member is permitted to submit the coins for the "FDI" label; this is NOT limited to just dealers as far as I know. But, see for yourself ... plan to grab a $1,000 sealed brick of the next President coming out when you can and tell PCGS bulk in advance that you want to submit the brick for FDI status just as soon as you can. I have little doubt, you can set up in advance an agreed submission program for those coins.
Wondercoin >>
I spoke with Stephanie in the Bulk Submission department and Collectors Club members CAN submit these under the following guidelines:
Submissions must be in 1,000 coin Bricks which then would get divided into 4 separate 250 coin submission lots with MS65 as the minimum acceptable grade at $12 per coin.
Thats a lotta moo-la!
The name is LEE!
You can play too!! Just kidding about the losing money part ... our am I?
Wondercoin
<< <i>Who has the 31,000 Washington coins??
Maybe we can sell the 200 Johnsons to those guys!!!
>>
National Collectors Mint
<< <i>I am not aware of that situation... I believe there are registry sets that still require position A & B (while others that give collectors the option of only collecting one position). Wondercoin >>
Oops, I should have checked the sets before posting. I just looked at a few sets, and you are right both sides are still required in most major sets (I didn't check them all). I thought I read something a few months ago from PCGS that they were going to stop the position requirements, but I must have misread it. The announcement was probably only referring to one set.
<< <i>Let's see ... for my "retirement", I think I will collect coins. LOL
Wondercoin
Hi Mitch,
EDITED OUT
Seth
1. The MS66 FDI coins are holding solidly most of their value (and then some) ... (3) pairs sold yesterday on ebay for nearly 2x as much as 2009 Lincoln MS66 pairs fetch and those Lincoln coins are not affected by the Mint Set issue at all. I also sold out the majority of all of my MS66 coins in 24 hours so I can only conclude that it is nearly "business as usual" for this grade level of FDI after the first President of 2011 (and probably ditto for MS65 coins as well).
2. I have sold about a half dozen MS67 FDI Johnson coins privately already and I would say that prices for these are somewhat down from what they would have been selling for had there still been SF coins in Mint Sets. How much down is hard to say though, because PCGS had only graded a couple D mint MS67 coins in the past year or more across all Presidents. For example, the D mint Lincoln only has a pop of -1- to this point and sold recently at auction for well over $6,000+ and many Presidents before that had a pop of -0-. So, again, hard to judge any kind of price drop in the first President of 2011 for the MS67 grade of FDI, but I would say from my personal sales that there is price drop for this grade (as perhaps some collectors decide what their future plans will be with the FDI series). Is it 50%? Hard to say, especially when comparing it to that $6,000+ sale of the lone Lincoln (which some might argue was a strong price considering the age of that particular coin, although perhaps no one who knows what it takes to get an MS67 D mint President from 2009 will find it too hard to see why it was gobbled up as it was by someone building a top set).
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Wondercoin
<< <i>Are we beginning to see some "new enthusiasm" coming into this market? >>
With each new Presidential Dollar released more people will notice that they exist. Heck many don't know they change the Quarter designs or that the 2009 Lincoln 1c's had 4 different reverse designs
Remember that your glory order of MS66 and MS67 coins are selling well for huge premiums because all other submissions to date were not so successful. We sold out of the handful of MS66 coins early for $75+ per coin because it cost most of that to do it with such a low % of coins warranting the MS66 grade. If all the orders submitted for Johnson FDI had similar results to yours, we would all be selling for probably about $20/coin on MS66 & several hundred each in MS67 repeating past results. If my next submission results look like yours did, there will be a change in market price.
Just a fair heads up.
Seth
And, remember your "glory" orders of Buchanan MS67 FDI coins. Didn't you slab nearly (if not) all of them in the pop report? We ended up buying 2 Pos A/B pair on the open market rather than keep submitting to make our own. Congratulations on scoring all (or nearly all) the Buchanan MS67 coins! One day you get "glory" brick(s) of Buchanan, one day I get "glory" bricks(s) of Johnson, one day Mas get "glory" brick(s) of Lincoln D $1 coins. Tomorrow it is someone else all together. I't all good.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Seth: Prices are always subject to change. Someone told me yesterday that you are still asking up to $500-$600/coin for the pop 16 P mint Lincoln MS67 coins (when discussing what a fair price should be on my pop 11 Johnson coin)? I did not even check, so if that is wrong, I stand corrected. Anyway, I have chosen to not submit Lincoln P coins for the past 3 or 4 months, but, if I do and I slab some more MS67 examples, you can rest assured that market will change too!
And, remember your "glory" orders of Buchanan MS67 FDI coins. Didn't you slab nearly (if not) all of them in the pop report? We ended up buying 2 Pos A/B pair on the open market rather than keep submitting to make our own. Congratulations on scoring all (or nearly all) the Buchanan MS67 coins! One day you get "glory" brick(s) of Buchanan, one day I get "glory" bricks(s) of Johnson, one day Mas get "glory" brick(s) of Lincoln D $1 coins. Tomorrow it is someone else all together. I't all good.
Wondercoin >>
I think the difference is that your order appears to have contained 100, maybe as many as 200 coins. I had 9000 Lincolns. You can't compare Lincoln to your order. The cost to produce MS67 lincolns right now is probably higher than my ask price unless you know something I don't. Your order of Johnson would have created 0 Lincoln 67s and not many in 66. Should anyone offer me a valid reason that my Lincoln MS67 prices are too high, I'm all ears. I believe the Lincolns to be similarly difficult to produce as perhaps other coins priced at 1000-2000 which have seasoned populations.
Buchanan is a similar situation. We had almost 9000 coins there too. When you do the work, spend the money, and hope it works out, then sometimes there is a reward. If I recall, we sold most of those Buchanan 67s for less than $200 per coin early on which you might think to be a bit cheap right now.
The argument is that Johnson happened to be a very easy order to come up with for you when compared to everyone else's submissions. Perhaps the prices asked for the "ease" involved might be a bit too high? I just don't see the real value connection with the prices and the effort involved there in light of your results. It makes me wonder what the next submissions will look like and how they would be fairly priced. There is nothing wrong with profit. Dealers are supposed to make a living like everyone else. Just asking that you take it easy on everyone in light of the new information.
Right now you are the man with the coins. Congratulations!
Seth
Last night, Lauren elected on a Friday night to not go out with her college friends or party like college kids do on weekends, but to spend the entire night (until 2:00 a.m.) screening Lincoln D coins, and others, for super high grade specimens to submit for non-FDI. Justin just spoke with me yesterday about the best method to receive $1 bricks at his college to screen as well. Together, they screen about 1,300+ coins an hour! I know you have great potential in your kids as well ... but they are probably too young to put on the gloves right this minute!
Wondercoin
edited to add ... From memory, I believe we screened nearly 50,000 Pres $1 coins in about a month as our highest monthly volume. But, records were made to be broken!
<< <i>Seth - My team of screeners have (likely) screened more Pres 1's in the past 4+ years than ANYONE out there (other than the grading services own review of coins of course). You mention 9,000 coins on this or that president. We have done upwards of 25,000 on a president (maybe more). What makes you think we did not do close to 9,000 Buchanans and yield -0- MS67 coins? You made them all on your glory brick(s)... well done my friend! Like I mentioned, we bought (2) pair on the open market (probably from someone who bought them from you wholesale originally).
Last night, Lauren elected on a Friday night to not go out with her college friends or party like college kids do on weekends, but to spend the entire night (until 2:00 a.m.) screening Lincoln D coins, and others, for super high grade specimens to submit for non-FDI. Justin just spoke with me yesterday about the best method to receive $1 bricks at his college to screen as well. Together, they screen about 1,300+ coins an hour! I know you have great potential in your kids as well ... but they are probably too young to put on the gloves right this minute!
Wondercoin >>
Well done Mitch and family.
Consumer Awareness : Something worth mention is that the Andrew Johnson FDI coins don't have anyone's gloves on them except PCGS. They come in sealed rolls and sealed bricks (PCGS Policy) so nobody could prescreen prior to submitting them. A random 100 or 200 coins from an unsearched brick are not worth $1000s of dollars...unless of course they are missing edge lettering.
Thank you for helping with consumer awareness Mitch. If the consumer is well informed it makes a stronger, healthier market.
Bye for now. Everyone have a GREAT weekend!
Seth
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Listen, PCGS screened coins can ALSO command great money as you are well aware. I believe a PCGS screened FDI example just fetched a TON of money from roughly a mere 200 or so coin order (although my particular Johnson order you mentioned twice was more than "100 - 200 coins"). The great coins can come from the personal screening efforts we all have done or the bulk screening efforts of the grading company staff. I enjoy doing the personal screening efforts wherever possible as it is very rewarding to find that great coin, as you are well aware.
Wondercoin
First, I am active on this thread only as it relates to Pres Dollars. I am not doing much with Lincoln cents these days and have not for years. So, hopefully, MAS can chime in as not only is he a strong Pres Dollar dealer as well, but also (IMHO) the 'KING" of business strike state quarters, Lincoln cents, etc. these days.
Wondercoin