I think Mr. NotHaus's problem was that he struck something with the word "DOLLAR" on it. >>
So this just supports my quick statement! For example, the 1964 Peace Dollars he made say "DOLLAR" on them! >>
Even if Carr is guilty of doing the same thing (fill in your own verdict here,) I doubt the government would go after him. The fed is upset because this guy was trying to undermine the current monetary structure in the US, Carr fantasy pieces do no such thing. They will never be used as currency, never be mistaken for currency (not really) and the supply is so limited that it has no viable impact on the US economy even if they did. The only motive behind persecuting Carr (if he were found guilty) would be to us him as an example to other would-be-minters. JMO.
"Congress has the concurrent power to restrain the circulation of money which is not issued under its own authority in order to protect and preserve the constitutional currency for the benefit of all citizens of the nation." -- US Attorney's statement
They've done a great job so far, haven't they?
Good deals with: goldman86 mkman123 Wingsrule wondercoin segoja Tccuga OKCC LindeDad and others.
<< <i>Even if Carr is guilty of doing the same thing (fill in your own verdict here,) I doubt the government would go after him. The fed is upset because this guy was trying to undermine the current monetary structure in the US, Carr fantasy pieces do no such thing. They will never be used as currency, never be mistaken for currency (not really) and the supply is so limited that it has no viable impact on the US economy even if they did. The only motive behind persecuting Carr (if he were found guilty) would be to us him as an example to other would-be-minters. JMO. >>
The Ameros are not an issue because they are not denominated in dollars and do not say "United States of America" and do not say "In God We Trust" or "Liberty." Now the 64 Peace Dollar is another issue... frankly, this decision does not bode well for Mr. Carr's Peace Dollar should the government decide to go after him.
Not only does the '64-D fantasy Peace dollar state that denomination, but also the 2009-DC Proofed silver eagle and his in-shop trade dollar, depicted below. Of course he has his back covered on these since they are all overstruck on real US coins of that denomination.
<< <i>Not only does the '64-D fantasy Peace dollar state that denomination, but also the 2009-DC Proofed silver eagle and his in-shop trade dollar, depicted below. Of course he has his back covered on these since they are all overstruck on real US coins of that denomination. >>
Naw, he just hopped into another frying pan...
See United States Code TITLE 18, PART I, CHAPTER 17 , § 331. concerning the Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins, which reads, as follows:
Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened— Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
"I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
<< <i>Even if Carr is guilty of doing the same thing (fill in your own verdict here,) I doubt the government would go after him. The fed is upset because this guy was trying to undermine the current monetary structure in the US, Carr fantasy pieces do no such thing. They will never be used as currency, never be mistaken for currency (not really) and the supply is so limited that it has no viable impact on the US economy even if they did. The only motive behind persecuting Carr (if he were found guilty) would be to us him as an example to other would-be-minters. JMO. >>
The Ameros are not an issue because they are not denominated in dollars and do not say "United States of America" and do not say "In God We Trust" or "Liberty." Now the 64 Peace Dollar is another issue... frankly, this decision does not bode well for Mr. Carr's Peace Dollar should the government decide to go after him. >>
All of the Ameros I issued do have the word "Liberty". "Liberty", "In God We Trust", "E Pluribus Unum", "United States of America", and "One Dollar" are not restricted trademarks or anything. Using them in scheme to make someone believe an item is legal tender when it is not, is a crime of course.
<< <i>Not only does the '64-D fantasy Peace dollar state that denomination, but also the 2009-DC Proofed silver eagle and his in-shop trade dollar, depicted below. Of course he has his back covered on these since they are all overstruck on real US coins of that denomination. >>
Naw, he just hopped into another frying pan...
See United States Code TITLE 18, PART I, CHAPTER 17 , § 331. concerning the Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins, which reads, as follows:
Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened— Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. >>
The key word is "fraudulently". You can take a 1944-D cent and cut off part of the "4" to make it look like a "1914-D". You can even legally sell it at a profit, so long as the alterations are fully disclosed and the coin is not presented with intent to deceive/defraud the buyer.
<< <i>The Ameros are not an issue because they are not denominated in dollars and do not say "United States of America" and do not say "In God We Trust" or "Liberty." Now the 64 Peace Dollar is another issue... frankly, this decision does not bode well for Mr. Carr's Peace Dollar should the government decide to go after him. >>
The Liberty Dollar organization was accused of presenting $20 face-value coins as "legal tender", when in fact, the coins were not government-issue.
In my case, I take legal-tender dollar coins and alter them, without adding or removing any metal, and without heating or melting. After the alterations, the apparent face-value of the coins is never increased. But the other big difference between the Liberty Dollars and what I did is that I never recommended that the coins I altered be used as legal tender. In fact, I clearly state that they should not. In the unlikely event that someone did spend one, the recipient would not be harmed since the market value of the coin is much higher than $1, and it has $25 or more worth of silver in it. And in such a case, the government would not be harmed either, since legal-tender dollars were altered to make the coins, and there was no net increase in face values.
In the Liberty Dollar case, one could argue that the recipient of one would be harmed because the real value of the coin could arguably be less than the $20 face value (at the time these were passed in circulation, silver was well below $20 per ounce). And the government could potentially be harmed by a dilution of the value of the legal-tender currency in circulation (if private-issue currencies enter circulation, the value of government-issue US Dollars could be diluted).
<< <i>The Ameros are not an issue because they are not denominated in dollars and do not say "United States of America" and do not say "In God We Trust" or "Liberty." Now the 64 Peace Dollar is another issue... frankly, this decision does not bode well for Mr. Carr's Peace Dollar should the government decide to go after him. >>
The Liberty Dollar organization was accused of presenting $20 face-value coins as "legal tender", when in fact, the coins were not government-issue. >>
Where exactly has the Liberty Dollar Organization state that their "coins" are legal tender? I believe this is an incorrect statement and I would like to be pointed to exactly where Mr Von NotHaus made such a claim.
<< <i>The Ameros are not an issue because they are not denominated in dollars and do not say "United States of America" and do not say "In God We Trust" or "Liberty." Now the 64 Peace Dollar is another issue... frankly, this decision does not bode well for Mr. Carr's Peace Dollar should the government decide to go after him. >>
The Liberty Dollar organization was accused of presenting $20 face-value coins as "legal tender", when in fact, the coins were not government-issue. >>
Where exactly has the Liberty Dollar Organization state that their "coins" are legal tender? I believe this is an incorrect statement and I would like to be pointed to exactly where Mr Von NotHaus made such a claim. >>
Daniel Carr wrote that they were "accused of" presenting their products as legal tender, not that they did present them so.
Where exactly has the Liberty Dollar Organization state that their "coins" are legal tender? I believe this is an incorrect statement and I would like to be pointed to exactly where Mr Von NotHaus made such a claim. >>
NORFED has always claimed the Liberty Dollar is a voluntary private barter currency which is perfectly legal. If individuals want to conduct business in green colored m&m's instead of green colored fiat dollars there is no law that prohibits them from doing so. The whole fraud issue is mostly based on a single pizza restaurant owner's testimony that she accepted a Liberty Dollar in 2003 and kept it in her daughters piggy bank thinking it was a commemorative, then in 2005 she saw Mr Von NotHaus on a TV news report and contacted the FBI feeling she had been defrauded. If a Liberty Associate represented the Liberty Dollar as legal tender instead of a voluntary barter currency as is stated in the Liberty Dollar educational and marketing materials, that has nothing to do with Mr Von NotHaus. To blame the NORFED organization for the actions of a single individual acting on his own is like saying that if someone commits a crime with a gun, the gun manufacturer should be held responsible.
Where exactly has the Liberty Dollar Organization state that their "coins" are legal tender? I believe this is an incorrect statement and I would like to be pointed to exactly where Mr Von NotHaus made such a claim. >>
NORFED has always claimed the Liberty Dollar is a voluntary private barter currency which is perfectly legal. If individuals want to conduct business in green colored m&m's instead of green colored fiat dollars there is no law that prohibits them from doing so. The whole fraud issue is mostly based on a single pizza restaurant owner's testimony that she accepted a Liberty Dollar in 2003 and kept it in her daughters piggy bank thinking it was a commemorative, then in 2005 she saw Mr Von NotHaus on a TV news report and contacted the FBI feeling she had been defrauded. If a Liberty Associate represented the Liberty Dollar as legal tender instead of a voluntary barter currency as is stated in the Liberty Dollar educational and marketing materials, that has nothing to do with Mr Von NotHaus. To blame the NORFED organization for the actions of a single individual acting on his own is like saying that if someone commits a crime with a gun, the gun manufacturer should be held responsible. >>
The pizza probably had anchovies on it! You can't trust anybody that would eat anchovy pizza!!!!!!!!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>The Ameros are not an issue because they are not denominated in dollars and do not say "United States of America" and do not say "In God We Trust" or "Liberty." Now the 64 Peace Dollar is another issue... frankly, this decision does not bode well for Mr. Carr's Peace Dollar should the government decide to go after him. >>
The Liberty Dollar organization was accused of presenting $20 face-value coins as "legal tender", when in fact, the coins were not government-issue. >>
Where exactly has the Liberty Dollar Organization state that their "coins" are legal tender? I believe this is an incorrect statement and I would like to be pointed to exactly where Mr Von NotHaus made such a claim. >>
Daniel Carr wrote that they were "accused of" presenting their products as legal tender, not that they did present them so. >>
Correct. I do not know if NORFED actually presented any of their coins as "legal tender" - I only read that they were accused of that. The government's case against them involved under-cover operations, which supposedly showed they intended the coins to circulate as legal-tender (or in place of legal tender). I have not heard or seen any of the actual evidence, except the coins themselves.
The Liberty Dollars appear harmless to me. The only thing about them that strikes me as odd is the strange tendency to use as many different font styles as possible in the coins' designs.
<< <i>Correct. I do not know if NORFED actually presented any of their coins as "legal tender" - I only read that they were accused of that. The government's case against them involved under-cover operations, which supposedly showed they intended the coins to circulate as legal-tender (or in place of legal tender). I have not heard or seen any of the actual evidence, except the coins themselves.
The Liberty Dollars appear harmless to me. The only thing about them that strikes me as odd is the strange tendency to use as many different font styles as possible in the coins' designs. >>
mrearlygold posted a link to the complete trial summary notes. I think he definitely got a raw deal based on the testimony presented. The jurors must have been total neophytes.
<< <i>The pizza probably had anchovies on it! You can't trust anybody that would eat anchovy pizza!!!!!!!!
>>
The sad part is that she claimed she was angry because he had eaten pizza and then didn’t pay for it. If she has held on to that $10 silver, it's now worth $35 in melt value
All of the Ameros I issued do have the word "Liberty". "Liberty", "In God We Trust", "E Pluribus Unum", "United States of America", and "One Dollar" are not restricted trademarks or anything. Using them in scheme to make someone believe an item is legal tender when it is not, is a crime of course.
<< <i>All of the Ameros I issued do have the word "Liberty". "Liberty", "In God We Trust", "E Pluribus Unum", "United States of America", and "One Dollar" are not restricted trademarks or anything. Using them in scheme to make someone believe an item is legal tender when it is not, is a crime of course.
>>
Looks like the FED's competition wasn't only from Mr Von NotHaus.
<< <i>New types of money are popping up across Mid-Michigan and supporters say, it's not counterfeit, but rather a competing currency.
Right now, you can buy a meal or visit a chiropractor without using actual U.S. legal tender.
They sound like real money and look like real money. But you can't take them to the bank because they're not made at a government mint. They're made at private mints.
"I sell three or four every single day and then I get one or two back a week," said Dave Gillie, owner of Gillies Coney Island Restaurant in Genesee Township.
Gillie also accepts silver, gold, copper and other precious metals to pay for food.
He says, if he wanted to, he could accept marbles.
"Do people have to accept dollars or money? No, they don't," Gillie said. "They can accept anything they want or they can refuse to accept anything."
He's absolutely right.
The U.S. Treasury Department says the Coinage Act of 1965 says "private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash, unless there is a state law which says otherwise."
That allows gas stations to say they don't accept 50- or $100 bills after a certain time of day in hopes of not getting robbed.
A chiropractic office in Lapeer County's Deerfield Township allows creativity when it comes to payment.
"This establishment accepts any form of silver, gold, chicken, apple pie, if someone works it out with me," said Jeff Kotchounian of Deerfield Chiropractic. "I've taken many things."
Jeff Kotchounian says he's used this Ron Paul half troy ounce of silver to get $25 worth of gas from a local station.
While the government and banks don't accept them, many others do.
So why is there interest in these competing currencies?
Is it just novelty or is there something deeper? >>
A remarkably non-informative news article. No description, size, weight, etc.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
It's the news- what else do you expect? The headline in the article in the first post says "NC man convicted of illegally minting US coins." Minting US coins? Really?
Ron Paul Coin Minter, Pot Priest, Faces 15 Years in Prison — By Tim Murphy | Mon Mar. 21, 2011 6:52 AM PDT.
At least the Ron Paul chocolates are still legal. Bernard Von NotHaus, the "monetary architect" behind the world's only currency emblazoned with Ron Paul's face, has been convicted in federal court for producing counterfeit currency and engaging in "conspiracy" against the United States. From our friends at Indiana's Evansville Courier & Press:
Von NotHaus developed the liberty dollar in 1998 as an "inflation-proof" alternative currency to the U.S. dollar, which he claimed has devalued since the Federal Reserve was established in 1913.
The silver medallions were produced by a private mint in Idaho on behalf of Evansville-based Liberty Services, which also issued paper notes the group said were backed by silver reserves...
According to federal prosecutors, Liberty coins were marked with the dollar sign; the words "dollar," "USA," "Liberty," "Trust in God" (instead of "In God We Trust"); and other features associated with legitimate U.S. coins.
In 2007, federal authorities raided Von NotHaus' Liberty Dollars headquarters in Evansville, and confiscated more than 2 tons of copper, silver, and gold coins. Von NotHaus had made no secret of his ambition, telling a Spokane newspaper, "we're going to be to the Federal Reserve System what Federal Express was to the Postal Service." Since 2009, lawmakers in at least 14 states have introduced legislation to require or encourage state governments to accept payment in gold or silver. In Utah, for instance, a proposed bill would permit citizens to operate their own private mints.
Since the raid, as the Southern Poverty Law Center notes, Von NotHaus has retired from the currency business to found the Free Marijuana Church of Honolulu, where he's a "high priest." He's currently working on a book, tentatively titled, One Toke to God—Two Tokes to Party. Von NotHaus faces up to 15 years in prison.
One of the numerous ironies surrounding this case is that von NotHaus had submitted the image of his original 1998 Liberty Dollar obverse to the U.S. Mint design contest for the creation of the Golden Dollar. Mike Wallace has a blurb about it on his website and even has a Certificate of Authenticity signed by von NotHaus attesting to this: See bottom of this page
The Liberty Dollar associate that is updating the trial news site gave an interview with a youtube blogger and said the case verdict will be appealed and may wind up in the Supreme Court. The uttering charge (Title 18 486) is what helped the prosecutions case.
<< <i>Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title (!1) or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. >>
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Daniel Carr next!!! >>
I think Mr. NotHaus's problem was that he struck something with the word "DOLLAR" on it. >>
So this just supports my quick statement! For example, the 1964 Peace Dollars he made say "DOLLAR" on them! >>
Even if Carr is guilty of doing the same thing (fill in your own verdict here,) I doubt the government would go after him. The fed is upset because this guy was trying to undermine the current monetary structure in the US, Carr fantasy pieces do no such thing. They will never be used as currency, never be mistaken for currency (not really) and the supply is so limited that it has no viable impact on the US economy even if they did. The only motive behind persecuting Carr (if he were found guilty) would be to us him as an example to other would-be-minters. JMO.
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
<< <i>Even if Carr is guilty of doing the same thing (fill in your own verdict here,) I doubt the government would go after him. The fed is upset because this guy was trying to undermine the current monetary structure in the US, Carr fantasy pieces do no such thing. They will never be used as currency, never be mistaken for currency (not really) and the supply is so limited that it has no viable impact on the US economy even if they did. The only motive behind persecuting Carr (if he were found guilty) would be to us him as an example to other would-be-minters. JMO. >>
The Ameros are not an issue because they are not denominated in dollars and do not say "United States of America" and do not say "In God We Trust" or "Liberty." Now the 64 Peace Dollar is another issue... frankly, this decision does not bode well for Mr. Carr's Peace Dollar should the government decide to go after him.
<< <i>Not only does the '64-D fantasy Peace dollar state that denomination, but also the 2009-DC Proofed silver eagle and his in-shop trade dollar, depicted below. Of course he has his back covered on these since they are all overstruck on real US coins of that denomination. >>
Naw, he just hopped into another frying pan...
See United States Code TITLE 18, PART I, CHAPTER 17 , § 331. concerning the Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins, which reads, as follows:
Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or
Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
He used one dollar coins as his stock, which are not demonetized by overstriking. They are still worth a buck.
<< <i>Nothing fraudulent about it.
He used one dollar coins as his stock, which are not demonetized by overstriking. They are still worth a buck. >>
Did you see the "fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies" part of my message?
(Pewter version depicted.)
<< <i>
<< <i>Even if Carr is guilty of doing the same thing (fill in your own verdict here,) I doubt the government would go after him. The fed is upset because this guy was trying to undermine the current monetary structure in the US, Carr fantasy pieces do no such thing. They will never be used as currency, never be mistaken for currency (not really) and the supply is so limited that it has no viable impact on the US economy even if they did. The only motive behind persecuting Carr (if he were found guilty) would be to us him as an example to other would-be-minters. JMO. >>
The Ameros are not an issue because they are not denominated in dollars and do not say "United States of America" and do not say "In God We Trust" or "Liberty." Now the 64 Peace Dollar is another issue... frankly, this decision does not bode well for Mr. Carr's Peace Dollar should the government decide to go after him. >>
All of the Ameros I issued do have the word "Liberty". "Liberty", "In God We Trust", "E Pluribus Unum", "United States of America", and "One Dollar" are not restricted trademarks or anything. Using them in scheme to make someone believe an item is legal tender when it is not, is a crime of course.
<< <i>
<< <i>Not only does the '64-D fantasy Peace dollar state that denomination, but also the 2009-DC Proofed silver eagle and his in-shop trade dollar, depicted below. Of course he has his back covered on these since they are all overstruck on real US coins of that denomination. >>
Naw, he just hopped into another frying pan...
See United States Code TITLE 18, PART I, CHAPTER 17 , § 331. concerning the Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins, which reads, as follows:
Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or
Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. >>
The key word is "fraudulently". You can take a 1944-D cent and cut off part of the "4" to make it look like a "1914-D". You can even legally sell it at a profit, so long as the alterations are fully disclosed and the coin is not presented with intent to deceive/defraud the buyer.
<< <i>The Ameros are not an issue because they are not denominated in dollars and do not say "United States of America" and do not say "In God We Trust" or "Liberty." Now the 64 Peace Dollar is another issue... frankly, this decision does not bode well for Mr. Carr's Peace Dollar should the government decide to go after him. >>
The Liberty Dollar organization was accused of presenting $20 face-value coins as "legal tender", when in fact, the coins were not government-issue.
In my case, I take legal-tender dollar coins and alter them, without adding or removing any metal, and without heating or melting. After the alterations, the apparent face-value of the coins is never increased. But the other big difference between the Liberty Dollars and what I did is that I never recommended that the coins I altered be used as legal tender. In fact, I clearly state that they should not. In the unlikely event that someone did spend one, the recipient would not be harmed since the market value of the coin is much higher than $1, and it has $25 or more worth of silver in it. And in such a case, the government would not be harmed either, since legal-tender dollars were altered to make the coins, and there was no net increase in face values.
In the Liberty Dollar case, one could argue that the recipient of one would be harmed because the real value of the coin could arguably be less than the $20 face value (at the time these were passed in circulation, silver was well below $20 per ounce). And the government could potentially be harmed by a dilution of the value of the legal-tender currency in circulation (if private-issue currencies enter circulation, the value of government-issue US Dollars could be diluted).
<< <i>
<< <i>The Ameros are not an issue because they are not denominated in dollars and do not say "United States of America" and do not say "In God We Trust" or "Liberty." Now the 64 Peace Dollar is another issue... frankly, this decision does not bode well for Mr. Carr's Peace Dollar should the government decide to go after him. >>
The Liberty Dollar organization was accused of presenting $20 face-value coins as "legal tender", when in fact, the coins were not government-issue.
>>
Where exactly has the Liberty Dollar Organization state that their "coins" are legal tender? I believe this is an incorrect statement and I would like to be pointed to exactly where Mr Von NotHaus made such a claim.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The Ameros are not an issue because they are not denominated in dollars and do not say "United States of America" and do not say "In God We Trust" or "Liberty." Now the 64 Peace Dollar is another issue... frankly, this decision does not bode well for Mr. Carr's Peace Dollar should the government decide to go after him. >>
The Liberty Dollar organization was accused of presenting $20 face-value coins as "legal tender", when in fact, the coins were not government-issue.
>>
Where exactly has the Liberty Dollar Organization state that their "coins" are legal tender? I believe this is an incorrect statement and I would like to be pointed to exactly where Mr Von NotHaus made such a claim. >>
Daniel Carr wrote that they were "accused of" presenting their products as legal tender, not that they did present them so.
<< <i>
Where exactly has the Liberty Dollar Organization state that their "coins" are legal tender? I believe this is an incorrect statement and I would like to be pointed to exactly where Mr Von NotHaus made such a claim. >>
NORFED has always claimed the Liberty Dollar is a voluntary private barter currency which is perfectly legal. If individuals want to conduct business in green colored m&m's instead of green colored fiat dollars there is no law that prohibits them from doing so. The whole fraud issue is mostly based on a single pizza restaurant owner's testimony that she accepted a Liberty Dollar in 2003 and kept it in her daughters piggy bank thinking it was a commemorative, then in 2005 she saw Mr Von NotHaus on a TV news report and contacted the FBI feeling she had been defrauded. If a Liberty Associate represented the Liberty Dollar as legal tender instead of a voluntary barter currency as is stated in the Liberty Dollar educational and marketing materials, that has nothing to do with Mr Von NotHaus. To blame the NORFED organization for the actions of a single individual acting on his own is like saying that if someone commits a crime with a gun, the gun manufacturer should be held responsible.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Where exactly has the Liberty Dollar Organization state that their "coins" are legal tender? I believe this is an incorrect statement and I would like to be pointed to exactly where Mr Von NotHaus made such a claim. >>
NORFED has always claimed the Liberty Dollar is a voluntary private barter currency which is perfectly legal. If individuals want to conduct business in green colored m&m's instead of green colored fiat dollars there is no law that prohibits them from doing so. The whole fraud issue is mostly based on a single pizza restaurant owner's testimony that she accepted a Liberty Dollar in 2003 and kept it in her daughters piggy bank thinking it was a commemorative, then in 2005 she saw Mr Von NotHaus on a TV news report and contacted the FBI feeling she had been defrauded. If a Liberty Associate represented the Liberty Dollar as legal tender instead of a voluntary barter currency as is stated in the Liberty Dollar educational and marketing materials, that has nothing to do with Mr Von NotHaus. To blame the NORFED organization for the actions of a single individual acting on his own is like saying that if someone commits a crime with a gun, the gun manufacturer should be held responsible. >>
The pizza probably had anchovies on it!
You can't trust anybody that would eat anchovy pizza!!!!!!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The Ameros are not an issue because they are not denominated in dollars and do not say "United States of America" and do not say "In God We Trust" or "Liberty." Now the 64 Peace Dollar is another issue... frankly, this decision does not bode well for Mr. Carr's Peace Dollar should the government decide to go after him. >>
The Liberty Dollar organization was accused of presenting $20 face-value coins as "legal tender", when in fact, the coins were not government-issue.
>>
Where exactly has the Liberty Dollar Organization state that their "coins" are legal tender? I believe this is an incorrect statement and I would like to be pointed to exactly where Mr Von NotHaus made such a claim. >>
Daniel Carr wrote that they were "accused of" presenting their products as legal tender, not that they did present them so. >>
Correct. I do not know if NORFED actually presented any of their coins as "legal tender" - I only read that they were accused of that. The government's case against them involved under-cover operations, which supposedly showed they intended the coins to circulate as legal-tender (or in place of legal tender). I have not heard or seen any of the actual evidence, except the coins themselves.
The Liberty Dollars appear harmless to me. The only thing about them that strikes me as odd is the strange tendency to use as many different font styles as possible in the coins' designs.
<< <i>The pizza probably had anchovies on it!
You can't trust anybody that would eat anchovy pizza!!!!!!!!
Well, Bernard von NotHaus only eats Hawaiian-style pizza.
<< <i>Correct. I do not know if NORFED actually presented any of their coins as "legal tender" - I only read that they were accused of that. The government's case against them involved under-cover operations, which supposedly showed they intended the coins to circulate as legal-tender (or in place of legal tender). I have not heard or seen any of the actual evidence, except the coins themselves.
The Liberty Dollars appear harmless to me. The only thing about them that strikes me as odd is the strange tendency to use as many different font styles as possible in the coins' designs. >>
mrearlygold posted a link to the complete trial summary notes. I think he definitely got a raw deal based on the testimony presented. The jurors must have been total neophytes.
http://www.liberty4free.com/Liberty%20Dollar%20Trial.htm
<< <i>The pizza probably had anchovies on it!
You can't trust anybody that would eat anchovy pizza!!!!!!!!
The sad part is that she claimed she was angry because he had eaten pizza and then didn’t pay for it. If she has held on to that $10 silver, it's now worth $35 in melt value
<< <i>I have this current Adam Leech store token overstruck on a US nickel -- valued at $20!. Throw him in jail?
(Pewter version depicted.)
Yes.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have this current Adam Leech store token overstruck on a US nickel -- valued at $20!. Throw him in jail?
(Pewter version depicted.)
Yes. >>
Good thing no one appointed you king!
<< <i>All of the Ameros I issued do have the word "Liberty". "Liberty", "In God We Trust", "E Pluribus Unum", "United States of America", and "One Dollar" are not restricted trademarks or anything. Using them in scheme to make someone believe an item is legal tender when it is not, is a crime of course.
Looks like the FED's competition wasn't only from Mr Von NotHaus.
<< <i>New types of money are popping up across Mid-Michigan and supporters say, it's not counterfeit, but rather a competing currency.
Right now, you can buy a meal or visit a chiropractor without using actual U.S. legal tender.
They sound like real money and look like real money. But you can't take them to the bank because they're not made at a government mint. They're made at private mints.
"I sell three or four every single day and then I get one or two back a week," said Dave Gillie, owner of Gillies Coney Island Restaurant in Genesee Township.
Gillie also accepts silver, gold, copper and other precious metals to pay for food.
He says, if he wanted to, he could accept marbles.
"Do people have to accept dollars or money? No, they don't," Gillie said. "They can accept anything they want or they can refuse to accept anything."
He's absolutely right.
The U.S. Treasury Department says the Coinage Act of 1965 says "private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash, unless there is a state law which says otherwise."
That allows gas stations to say they don't accept 50- or $100 bills after a certain time of day in hopes of not getting robbed.
A chiropractic office in Lapeer County's Deerfield Township allows creativity when it comes to payment.
"This establishment accepts any form of silver, gold, chicken, apple pie, if someone works it out with me," said Jeff Kotchounian of Deerfield Chiropractic. "I've taken many things."
Jeff Kotchounian says he's used this Ron Paul half troy ounce of silver to get $25 worth of gas from a local station.
While the government and banks don't accept them, many others do.
So why is there interest in these competing currencies?
Is it just novelty or is there something deeper? >>
Competing currency being accepted across Mid-Michigan
<< <i>A remarkably non-informative news article. >>
It's the news- what else do you expect? The headline in the article in the first post says "NC man convicted of illegally minting US coins." Minting US coins? Really?
Ron Paul Coin Minter, Pot Priest, Faces 15 Years in Prison
— By Tim Murphy
| Mon Mar. 21, 2011 6:52 AM PDT.
At least the Ron Paul chocolates are still legal. Bernard Von NotHaus, the "monetary architect" behind the world's only currency emblazoned with Ron Paul's face, has been convicted in federal court for producing counterfeit currency and engaging in "conspiracy" against the United States. From our friends at Indiana's Evansville Courier & Press:
Von NotHaus developed the liberty dollar in 1998 as an "inflation-proof" alternative currency to the U.S. dollar, which he claimed has devalued since the Federal Reserve was established in 1913.
The silver medallions were produced by a private mint in Idaho on behalf of Evansville-based Liberty Services, which also issued paper notes the group said were backed by silver reserves...
According to federal prosecutors, Liberty coins were marked with the dollar sign; the words "dollar," "USA," "Liberty," "Trust in God" (instead of "In God We Trust"); and other features associated with legitimate U.S. coins.
In 2007, federal authorities raided Von NotHaus' Liberty Dollars headquarters in Evansville, and confiscated more than 2 tons of copper, silver, and gold coins. Von NotHaus had made no secret of his ambition, telling a Spokane newspaper, "we're going to be to the Federal Reserve System what Federal Express was to the Postal Service." Since 2009, lawmakers in at least 14 states have introduced legislation to require or encourage state governments to accept payment in gold or silver. In Utah, for instance, a proposed bill would permit citizens to operate their own private mints.
Since the raid, as the Southern Poverty Law Center notes, Von NotHaus has retired from the currency business to found the Free Marijuana Church of Honolulu, where he's a "high priest." He's currently working on a book, tentatively titled, One Toke to God—Two Tokes to Party. Von NotHaus faces up to 15 years in prison.
Link
See bottom of this page
<< <i>Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes,
or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other
metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money,
whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of
foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this
title (!1) or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. >>