A new Hot topic from LS
Justacommeman
Posts: 22,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
But not a new topic
The reality is I really don't know who she is talking about (outside the ones listed in the suit) I plan to ask her though. MJ
The reality is I really don't know who she is talking about (outside the ones listed in the suit) I plan to ask her though. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
0
Comments
Assuming that education and experience are very valuable tools in this hobby, I think it would be very constructive for the average coin collector/investor if she would actually post various specific pics of the types of doctored coins she speaks of showing how the coin was doctored and what to look for on similar coins. Since the collector/investor is the ultimate end user for all these doctored up coins, wouldn't actually educating these end users would be one of the best ways to curb the traffic of doctored coins and subsequently lessen the demand for them?
<< <i>Ok I read it.
Assuming that education and experience are very valuable tools in this hobby, I think it would be very constructive for the average coin collector/investor if she would actually post various specific pics of the types of doctored coins she speaks of showing how the coin was doctored and what to look for on similar coins. Since the collector/investor is the ultimate end user for all these doctored up coins, wouldn't actually educating these end users would be one of the best ways to curb the traffic of doctored coins and subsequently lessen the demand for them? >>
Knowledge is power. Power is valuable, not to be given away.
Cheers, RickO
<< <i>The doctored coins Laura speaks of are not discernable in pics. >>
Detailed descriptions of what to look for then. Anything substantive would be better than just continuing to talk about it in the abstract.
I agree completely with Dragon and RickO.
AB
but in reality she's snipe hunting with a pen light.
its never gonna stop, even if there were 100 lauras
Now, if only she would use a spell-checker. Really, doesn't most software support one? Definately, laiden, careing? C'mon, LS. It distracts your readers from following your points.
Lance.
...hear here!
<< <i>going back at least five + years the writer has been saying the same thing. the problem is that the bulk of us DON'T know who these perpetrators are and NOBODY WILL TELL for fear of being sued. >>
Laura's outspokenness has been a force force for change in the coin market. She's a positive influence and we should all be glad she does what she does.
She's fearless and in their face. As Bruce said, being passionate and endless about this problem is understandable.
Thanks Laura.
<< <i>Dragon is 100% correct... education is the key to addressing this issue. Doctored coins sell because most cannot 'see' the issue. That is where training - examples, descriptions, exposing methods - comes into play. Without such training, sales of doctored material will continue. Remember, no one is born with this knowledge - it must be learned, therefore is teachable. Actually, a section on this site which deals only with doctored coins, showing examples and the techniques to identify these methods would be an incredible learning tool. If the market goes away, so do the profits and the doctors.
Cheers, RickO >>
Several members of this forum including myself teach at ANA Summer Seminar and deal with these topics in varying degree, especially problem coins in Advanced Grading. These are generalist classes.
Coins have been crudely doctored and tortured in class and the results demonstrated. Doctoring detection comes up once in a while, and the rudiments of proprietary information are sometimes quite available.
Beginners' and intermediates' most prevalent source of confusion is the effects of dipping.
Doctoring paranoia is also dealt with by educating wholesome before we confuse with them with crap.
Coins for Sale: Both Graded and Ungraded
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oqym2YtcS7ZAZ73D6
<< <i>it takes balls and confidence to doctor a million dollar coin!! >>
Well the coin was only worth 95K at the time it was "done" and the upgrade was only to 250K.
Since then the demand for great doctored coins has skyrocketed.
Does anyone who got fooled consider that they might being projecting their shame at their ignorance onto those who took advantage of their insistence that they knew and were thus arbiters of the truth?
This is at the core of my signature line.
<< <i>people talking about doctored coins isn't the answer, why not go after those who sell them? make a real impact not by talking but by actions, put a few coin doctors in jail send a clear message this will happen to you if you sell doctored coins >>
Put them in jail for what? There's no law against coin doctoring.
I've said this here before that the 3rd party graders should have at their disposal high power microscopes in their grading rooms and use them on an ongoing basis even if it slows down the grading process. Even the sharpest graders cannot detect very good work IMO using a simple 5 or 10X loupe, whereas nearly every single doctored up coin would become obvious under a microscope where the problems would then stand out like a sore thumb IMO.
Once the coin docs know their 'worked on' and 'worked over' coins have virtually no shot at getting through the major services, this will put a huge dent in the $$$$ incentive of those causing all the problems.
<< <i>Where is dbcoin's post? Wait..it'll be here after Laura lands at Newark Airport. >>
Close, but no cigar
<< <i>I believe the core of this ongoing problem sits squarely on the shoulders of the 3rd party grading services. They are the ones who must make life very difficult for even the best of class coin docs by more carefully examining mid to high dollar coins (with microscopes if necessary) before giving them their stamp of approval, ie: a grade.
I've said this here before that the 3rd party graders should have at their disposal high power microscopes in their grading rooms and use them on an ongoing basis even if it slows down the grading process. Even the sharpest graders cannot detect very good work IMO using a simple 5 or 10X loupe, whereas nearly every single doctored up coin would become obvious under a microscope where the problems would then stand out like a sore thumb IMO.
Once the coin docs know their 'worked on' and 'worked over' coins have virtually no shot at getting through the major services, this will put a huge dent in the $$$$ incentive of those causing all the problems. >>
To get to this point, a lot of good coins will wind up in genuine holders---the TPGs will have to do this to financially protect themselves. This is already happening with coins having multicolored toning.
A better first step is for dealers who don't doctor coins to refuse to do business with those that do. When coin doctors and their fences can brazenly discuss the possible doctoring of a coin in public (lot viewing prior to a coin auction) without any fear of repercussions, it seems to me that the first step needs to come from dealers and dealer-related organizations like PNG.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I always believe that you must protect yourself from the abuse of others. That is why Photo Seal exists, CAC exists and PCGS Secure Plus exists. You can't control what others will do, either though intimidation, shame, or whatever legal remedies there are. You have to learn how to tell a doctored coin or trust someone who does. Going after the PNG seems misplaced.
Who?
<< <i>Where is dbcoin's post? Wait..it'll be here after Laura lands at Newark Airport. >>
I don't get it?????
Unfortunately - or fortunately - depending on your perspective, the grading services don't operate in a "zero defects" mode. Sorry to say but PCGS is not going to get a Six Sigma certification. Yes, out of a couple hundred thousand coins a month, we may make a few mistakes. We do get upset when PCGS makes a mistake - remember it could happen anywhere in the operation - especially because we know everyone is trying to be perfect. But I don't feel any shame. Why not? Because PCGS has the ultimate guarantee. It's what makes our market. It is the ultimate safety net for all of you. Sometimes the bad guys benefit from it, but that is a small price for PCGS to pay to guarantee you peace of mind.
That is the beauty of it all. It is because of PCGS' guarantee that thousands of new collectors and investors have come into the market since 1986. It is because of PCGS' guarantee that coins are bringing record prices. It's because of PCGS that you don't have to argue about the condition of the coins you own, that your coins are easier to sell, and that you can get more for them. It is all about PCGS and the way PCGS changed the market.
We can all wring our hands and worry that PCGS is in some way providing cover for the coin doctors, but I think we are looking through the wrong end of the telescope when we do. If you could see the thousands of problem coins that PCGS rejects every week, or the 100-200 couterfeits we catch, or the many collectors and dealers that we help, then you would realize the overwhelming positive benefit that we provide. And you would feel good about it.
"WTF am I boycotting? How can I if I do not know who they are?"
"so tired of hearing the battle cry with no help from those screaming."
"The only thing that makes me feel somewhat at ease is that the powers that
be at PCGS know who they are and I am safe in buying their slabs, provided they
do not come from china"
the above was stated to me at a local coin show a few weeks back, and I did not
know what to respond. I am not a trained eye, have no clue what a puttied coin looks
like. I do trust PCGS slabs but at the same time we hear theres tons of fakes coming from
the far east. I thank DH for the verification system, but some do not have access to that.
truth be there is no real answers here, and I somehow think exposing docs will not solve the problem.
education just might help... or at least I hope.
I do commend Laura for putting herself out there, takes alot of guts and those constantly putting her down
should realize what she does for them.
Thank you LS.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
Actually we'd LOVE to see them. How about a database of rejected coins for ones submitted in other TPG slabs that's actually searchable by the cert number of the said other TPG slab?
It would be nice if someone (who didn't have the expertise to tell a doctored coin) knew before they bought a coin they intended to crossover (or simply before they submitted a coin they already owned) if it had a prior visit to Newport Beach.
Would be a SELFLESS act on PCGS's part to sacrifice THAT revenue for the sake of collectors/consumers not wasting their money on a hopeless endeavor. Would it not?
<< <i>"...If you could see the thousands of problem coins that PCGS rejects every week..."
Actually we'd LOVE to see them. How about a database of rejected coins for ones submitted in other TPG slabs that's actually searchable by the cert number of the said other TPG slab?
It would be nice if someone (who didn't have the expertise to tell a doctored coin) knew before they bought a coin they intended to crossover (or simply before they submitted a coin they already owned) if it had a prior visit to Newport Beach.
Would be a SELFLESS act on PCGS's part to sacrifice THAT revenue for the sake of collectors/consumers not wasting their money on a hopeless endeavor. Would it not?
Seems the owners of the coins might have some negative consequences here and PCGS has a fiduciary duty to protect the submitters' privacy and value of their property.
Moving metal? Different story.
quite possible that the initial strong influx of coins to CAC has already occured, especially at the higher end of the price spectrum. And it's also possible that doctors are getting
better such that their product is not getting picked out as easily. We all of course hope that it's the former rather than the latter.
I don't see why the TPG's and other certification firms don't hire on an ex or current doctor to help police the trade. Certainly there is at least one doctor willing to go straight for the
appropriate price. Seems like a small price to pay for prevention.
roadrunner
Crack-out players and industry insiders always knew the system was gameable. But it is also self-correcting. Grading services have always known this and calculated the cost of an imperfect system.
Other players, major and minor, are more likely to demand perfection. And be more frightened when Big Daddy doesn't come through. They think they are buying the coin, not the holder (and its guarantee). And like all mortals they cringe at the idea that a chain of mistakes has resulted in a really expensive problem having been passed along to them. Trust me: egos as well as wallets are bruised.
Their shame at their ignorance, their sense of futility in mastering the selection process, can produce or tap into deep rage. They can let themselves off the hook if they can reduce themselves to the role of unwitting dupe when in fact they are unindicted co-conspirators.
She Who Shall Not Be Named has publicly stated She has been burned by MS70'd Indian proofs and puttied Saints. She is uniquely positioned to be most embarrassed because of her insistence she delivers quality. As it happens 99+% of the time She does. But many babies have been thrown out with the bath water. In terms of public embarassment the best defense is often a good offense.
I can also give you instances where She bought into pop-top logic. Would not the over-grading shutdown not benefit those who have the greatest investment in this arena? So was this a nefarious secret agenda? Keep those populations low. Hmmm.. I have a story about a 1911 10c and the premium paid.
But one anecdote is not metasymbolic. So I've got an anecdote or two. They prove a point, not define the truth (that word, that word).
On the techno-moral issues the jury is still out.
The problem is also real, though my belief is that enough dreck is out there that, without any consideration of doctoring, we have a problem. Happens every market cycle. My take: A pimple diagnosed as cancer. (Poetic license please)
I use Her stance as an example. Some of it has virtue. The TPGs caused most of it without much help from "doctors" at all. Different market, different market acceptable.
Hey, I'm pissed at myself when I make a mistake. I've got many more $25K hits than $5K losses. Doctoring was not needed in most instances (ooooh
I've got stories that would make anyone squirm. I am part of the "Wall of Silence". I don't name names. A lot of professionals respect my knowledge of what happens when... Others know more than I about this and other stuff. I often share some of what I know to help those here and elsewhere with constructive ways to deal with problem coins. It isn't penance. It isn't guilt. Just an attempt to walk The Middle Road.
Now I've got to see if I've lost that sushi I was awarded by PM before this specific post. She's much more receptive to shoulder massage than criticism. I will state conclusively from first-hand experience that She sometimes listens anyway.
George has his hands full, doesn't he?
I would feel so much better if She didn't have a valid point.
I hate the way She makes it. I think it's out of proportion to how widespead is the nature of the problem. I think Her company and Her stance are more vulnerable to past "bad acts" by others than most any other trading platform. This isn't Pascal's Wager. No catastophic event has occurred. Her current stance is to some extent driven by a need to protect her base and herself. She's more than up to it.
This is an excellent business model. Ego-syntonic to Her passion, stirred more by beauty, Her position still carries with it a satisfaction of an anger over being to some degree complicit in one's own violation.
The ability to evoke this outrage and use it constructively is an excellent business asset. The awareness of a customer's need to be protected and the commitment to fulfill this need, and the ability to do this through leveraging her customer base, are all good service as well as good business.
I really hate saying all that, but I'm a whore for sushi.
So if Laura is my dealer she would tell me who the scum are?
<< <i>"...If you could see the thousands of problem coins that PCGS rejects every week..."
Actually we'd LOVE to see them. How about a database of rejected coins for ones submitted in other TPG slabs that's actually searchable by the cert number of the said other TPG slab?
It would be nice if someone (who didn't have the expertise to tell a doctored coin) knew before they bought a coin they intended to crossover (or simply before they submitted a coin they already owned) if it had a prior visit to Newport Beach.
Would be a SELFLESS act on PCGS's part to sacrifice THAT revenue for the sake of collectors/consumers not wasting their money on a hopeless endeavor. Would it not?
A few years ago PCGS brought their grading set of coins to the Long Beach coin show and had it on display. It also include many examples of problem coins and I think there were several counterfeits as well. Anyways, it was really cool to see and they should bring it to more shows as I think it would really educate folks.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>
Seems the owners of the coins might have some negative consequences here and PCGS has a fiduciary duty to protect the submitters' privacy and value of their property.
>>
On the submission form you give them permission to image your coins and use those images. As long as they aren't putting the submitters' names on the images, then they seem ok to do what they want with pics of your coins. I know that they've used my coins in their advertisements before w/o asking me about it.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
until they are all properly SORTED OUT and catalogued by PCGS Secure Plus, CoinFacts, CAC, and the Registry Set and other DATABASES.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Hmmmm....I thought they just rolled on the runway as people jumped out, then flew away to avoid the gunshots -- or maybe that was DFW....? Not sure – it’s been a long time since flying was enjoyable.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Her Hot Topics is sincere. This girl needs more people helping her!
I would find it hard to believe that db has anything to do with Legend..............MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......