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The vastly under-appreciated importance of "perspective" in coin collecting.....
coinguy1
Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
I'm going by my memory from more than a few years ago, so I can't promise 100 percent accuracy here, but.....
One of the most memorable remarks I heard, when I taught the advanced grading class at the ANA seminar, was "So that's what an MS67 looks like".
I had just shown one of my students a PCGS MS67 Walking Liberty Half Dollar. Prior to that, he hadn’t seen one graded anywhere near that high, and had no idea what an extremely well preserved example could look like. In other words, he had been operating largely in the dark, because he didn’t have the perspective of having seen the upper end of the quality scale. Many other students were in the same disadvantageous position. And many collectors (and even dealers) in this hobby are too.
High quality on-line images can help, somewhat. But, if you don't attend large coin shows and/or auction viewings or don’t otherwise see large numbers of coins (including high grade examples) in person, you are lacking that all- important perspective. And without it, you can't fully appreciate the quality of coins for what they are, at least relative to how others might be.
And that doesn't apply only to the numerical grading scale. The same can be said about luster, strike, eye-appeal and various types/colors of toning. And even characteristics such as PL or DPL, Full Head, FBL, FB, etc.
Please feel free to disagree, but I believe that "perspective" is easily among the most underrated and under-appreciated aspects of coin collecting.
One of the most memorable remarks I heard, when I taught the advanced grading class at the ANA seminar, was "So that's what an MS67 looks like".
I had just shown one of my students a PCGS MS67 Walking Liberty Half Dollar. Prior to that, he hadn’t seen one graded anywhere near that high, and had no idea what an extremely well preserved example could look like. In other words, he had been operating largely in the dark, because he didn’t have the perspective of having seen the upper end of the quality scale. Many other students were in the same disadvantageous position. And many collectors (and even dealers) in this hobby are too.
High quality on-line images can help, somewhat. But, if you don't attend large coin shows and/or auction viewings or don’t otherwise see large numbers of coins (including high grade examples) in person, you are lacking that all- important perspective. And without it, you can't fully appreciate the quality of coins for what they are, at least relative to how others might be.
And that doesn't apply only to the numerical grading scale. The same can be said about luster, strike, eye-appeal and various types/colors of toning. And even characteristics such as PL or DPL, Full Head, FBL, FB, etc.
Please feel free to disagree, but I believe that "perspective" is easily among the most underrated and under-appreciated aspects of coin collecting.
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Excellent post. Not sure how anyone could disagree......
although I'm sure someone will.
Had the coin been a vastly undergraded jewel or a "big dog", then the perspective is lost by the lack of experience.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Well said. And perhaps equally important to perspective is experience. For example, you showed your students (I assume) a properly graded MS67 coin and they gained perspective.
Had the coin been a vastly undergraded jewel or a "big dog", then the perspective is lost by the lack of experience.
Wondercoin >>
Those examples are usually reserved for advanced undergrading class.
The lack of perspective leads people to innacurate perceptions whether it be pertaining to value, rarity, grading, etc. It happens to everybody including graders. The grading results from the first years of TPG's demonstrate that.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>Wei beat me to the punch. i have thought for quite awhile that "perspective" as you call it has been responsible for most of the trends we refer to as under/over grading, especially during the early years of PCGS. as a larger pool of coins is seen the perception of what a particular grade(such as MS65) might be changes in our minds. professional graders and TPG's are no different. >>
So, as you learn more/see more... are you more forgiving or more critical... do MS65s from 10 years ago become MS64s or MS66s today?
Why is this needed? Grading/evaluating quality is a use-it-or-lose-it skill (like playing a piano, or speaking a foreign language). To me, perspective means developing a sense of what is nice for a grade (re luster, fullness of strike, marks, etc.) vs. what looks low end, and what has been available in the marketplace in recent years. To see what is nice for a given grade for a coin, a collector really needs to see dozens of specimens within a 1-2 point range, ideally in one sitting (most easily done using MS Morgans, Saints, etc.). And then make an effort to view coins on a routine basis.
As an example, when I started collecting large cents decades ago, I loved the 'uniform' brown or full-red look. I came to realize that what I have been buying were mostly recolored coins (and I still see these types of coppers in top-tier slabs today). Many opine that budding collectors should get the keys and semi-keys first, if assembling a single-series set of coins. After obtaining a sense of perspective (eye for quality), many collectors realize that what they initially collected wasn't of the quality they believed they were getting and may seek to buy replacements---this can be expensive. Thinking about all the meh coins in slabs is enough to make one's head spin. Without a proper sense of perspective, a collector will be in a dangerous position.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
somewhere on the coin, maybe a graze or two. They'll grade it MS65 raw to be safe and give you $100 for it.
I remember making the monster mistake of giving "free perspective" to my local B&M on a box of 20 PF/MS65-MS67 bust and seated halves that I had recently purchased and was driving by to put them in the bank. I thought they'd get a kick out of seeing them. They had only been in business 3 yrs at the time so hadn't really seen many high end coins. Imagine my shock when they verbally trashed several of them for having a stray mark or two, less than perfect strikes, and "ugly" original toning. My MS65 Reeded Edge half was called AU as was my MS63 1839 no drapery half. Ironic since each of those was probably the best specimen of either I had seen in 20 yrs. The no drapery half was typically struck and probably why they called that AU. But it occured to me I had just made a huge error in showing them what real coins look like in high grades. They didn't know what they were looking at and I was giving them an unintended grading seminar. Should something ever like this wander into the store raw, the chances just dropped that I'd be able to pick them up at "their assigned grades." I never brought anything nice in again to show them or any other local shop. Lesson learned: don't educate your own shops. They are "professionals." Let them educate themselves. If you want to show your stuff to other collectors or dealers who are already educated, then by all means.
The quickest way to get perspective today is drop into lot viewing at a major auction (NY, Orlando, Dallas, Baltimore, LA, central states, ANA). You can spend as many hours as you like
viewing hundreds or thousands of coins. Certainly these may not be on the stronger end of the grading spectrum as a rule, but it's a start.
roadrunner
<< <i>Well said. And perhaps equally important to perspective is experience. For example, you showed your students (I assume) a properly graded MS67 coin and they gained perspective.
Had the coin been a vastly undergraded jewel or a "big dog", then the perspective is lost by the lack of experience.
Wondercoin >>
I agree with the above. Perspective for an expert or would-be expert is one thing. Many a novice looks at one MS67 wonder coin and then goes home and thinks that his/her raw coins are just as nice. I've seen it so many times on the forum. A know-nothing novice buys one coin or sees one coin and all of the sudden they are an expert on the series and begin to critique other people's coins. I doubt that those in the class would be able to pick out another 67 from three decent looking 66s if the labels are hidden. They don't have enough experience. So what did they really learn? Not all that much. Learning to grade involves looking at a lot of coins and for most, a lot of time.
Experience and knowledge are a prerequisite to the perspective meaning very much. It reminds me of the time I took a neighbor to a big coin show. He saw some Buffalo nickels in one case with price tags of three and four figures. He got all excited because he had bunch of them in an old slot machine, thinking they were worth the same instead of the 25 to 50 cents they were worth in their condition. So the moral of the story might be for this example, being shown one wonder coin at a high grade, and a high price means next to nothing in isolation. To an expert or aspiring expert, it can be useful, otherwise it may well be "pearls before swine," or teaching a pig to read or any number of cliches.
Problem is, it is so simple, too many folks will just gloss over this.
People love things difficult.
If you really take this to heart, and really get as much of this under your belt as possible, you will not only become a better grader, the added thing will be that your collection will
go from mundane or average, to something truly impressive.
edited 4 spelling
<< <i>Great post. Everyone who specializes in a certain coin should have a grading set, knowing a good4 coin is as important as knowing a 67!! >>
That would be a little hard to do with colonials...and ridiculously expensive!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>My perspective is I feel no urgency to buy anything. >>
Not disagreeing with what has been said. Many times you run into people that have been in the hobby a short time and they think their perspective ranks right up at the top.
Ken
<< <i>Who's perspective wins out in the long run? Are we still back to the adage that it all is still a opinion?
Not disagreeing with what has been said. Many times you run into people that have been in the hobby a short time and they think their perspective ranks right up at the top.
Ken >>
...ditto.
<< <i>
<< <i>Who's perspective wins out in the long run? Are we still back to the adage that it all is still a opinion?
Not disagreeing with what has been said. Many times you run into people that have been in the hobby a short time and they think their perspective ranks right up at the top.
Ken >>
...ditto. >>
Those who have been in the hobby only a short time, don't have sufficient perspective. And that applies, even if/when they think otherwise.
<< <i>
<< <i>Who's perspective wins out in the long run? Are we still back to the adage that it all is still a opinion?
Not disagreeing with what has been said. Many times you run into people that have been in the hobby a short time and they think their perspective ranks right up at the top.
Ken >>
...ditto. >>
I recall a few months ago when a newbie told us he had been studying photos and photography via the internet and, after one year, he knew more than he needed from his year's worth of study. Knew more than previous experts. Turns out he was pretty good at photographing Lincolns.
Look at all the coins you can. Auction lot viewing is an ideal venue. Specialize in a series or a metal and add to your experiential database. Read all you can. Make mistakes, knowledge can be costly. Over time you will gain confidence in following your instincts because your personal knowledge base has more in it.
Data is not knowledge until it is sufficiently organized. And knowledge is not wisdom unless informed by judgments that, over time, have blended together to inform your gut.
Find a teacher.
And remember, as self-serving and egotistical and grandiose as it might be for me to make this statement, that, as you cruise the Web, you may well be pissing on the heads of giants without even realizing that you're standing on their shoulders.
There will always be someone out there if you need the help to refine your skills. They may even know something you don't. 30+ years as a pro and I'm still making mistakes. They are much higher- level mistakes than 10 years ago. And I'm still asking questions and answering more of them. I will still retain some info as proprietary. Yet there are plenty like me who will share a lot. Go to an ANA Summer Seminar and gain more knowledge and better skills than you would get in a year on the Web. And the instructors there will give away more of their "secrets" than you would imagine.
BTW I am always impressed by the generosity of EAC aficionados, not just because of their superb knowledge base and willingness to share it, but also because they restrain their laughter until I leave their table.
Coins at the upper end of the grading scale have a totally different 'look' to them.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
*I've never been to a lot viewing.
*I've never stood behind the counter of a coin shop for a day.
*I've never stood behind a table at a coin show for an afternoon.
*I've never sold more than a dozen or so coins in a year.
*I only go to coin shops when I'm buying, so I don't get to handle a lot of coins while 'tire kicking.'
When I've posted a widget coin on the board that I thought was terrific, this board has served me well by refining my perspective.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
<< <i>Back in the early 70s, a buddy and I use to cherry pick mint bags of Morgan dollars. Now THERE is a way to gain perspective on those coins ! We would assimilate the bag from top to bottom, picking out the top 5 or 10 percent, and then re-assimilate on down, usually to around 30 or 40 coins per bag on average. Many dozens of these were sold to Steve Ivy, Robert Hughes, David Hall, and many other recognizable names in the industry today, mostly in the late 80s. Guess the experience spoiled me, because I have a very hard time dealing with today's higher MS Morgan and Peace grades, knowing the numbers of really gem quality dollars that were once on the market for the taking. >>
In the mid to late-'70's it was very difficult and expensive to check rolls and bags of
interesting coins like morgans and walkers because the prices had escalated and the
spread between bid and ask had increased. Gems didn't gain a large premium until
late in the decade but finding them got expensive earlier.
This drove me first to the '33 to '64 coinage but I was soon priced out of these mar-
kets as well before finding the clads. Some of these now are starting to get pretty
expensive to search varieties but gems can often be had fairly cheaply if you can find
original sources for mint sets.
The name is LEE!
By the way Mark, I had once owned the "finest" roosevelt dime ever in the history of NGC and did not even know it! The story of a little 1951 dime that I fell in love with yet was not enamored with the weakness in the reverse torch despite the ultra high grade assigned it by NGC.
Onlyroosies sold me this wonderful 1951 dime graded by NGC as MS-68FT. It was a stupendously wonderful dime. The ONLY dime I owned in my type set. I wanted to keep it FOREVER! But after three years of blissful ownership onlyroosies contacted me and gave me an offer that was VERY strong at the time to re-sell it. I finally succumbed to selling it after agonizing over whether to sell it or not. The money was great which allowed me the opportunity to buy something else I really wanted but I REALLY MISSED this beautiful blue aqua dime. My friends said it never hurts to take a profit. But to me it was not about that at all, just the joy of owning this wonderful dime.
I find out that two years later NGC re-graded it MS-68FT*, the highest grade ever given to any roosevelt dime ever by NGC.
Was I angry? Not at all. In fact, I was pleased that I was once in the chain of having enjoyed this wonderful dime and onlyroosies knows that I stipulated permanent visitation rights to this wonderful dime as part of my deal to sell it back.
Now this is perspective along with experience.
Perspective is part of the array of experiences a collector can and should acquire to enrich his joy of collecting.
<< <i>I got a taste of this perspective last year whean I went to the ANA National Money Show, seeing high grade rarities for the first time. I saw matte proof gold from the 1910s for the first time, and it was so much more spectacular in person. I got to see live the difference between my MS62 Indian quarter eagles and their MS65 counterparts, and I came to underrstand why someone would be willing to spend so much more for the latter. >>
High quality on-line images can help, somewhat. But, if you don't attend large coin shows and/or auction viewings or don’t otherwise see large numbers of coins (including high grade examples) in person, you are lacking that all- important perspective. And without it, you can't fully appreciate the quality of coins for what they are, at least relative to how others might be.
And that doesn't apply only to the numerical grading scale. The same can be said about luster, strike, eye-appeal and various types/colors of toning. And even characteristics such as PL or DPL, Full Head, FBL, FB, etc.
I think the former quote from "scottgardener" and then Mark`s quote are so very true... Excellent post btw Mark!
AB
<< <i>I'm going by my memory from more than a few years ago, so I can't promise 100 percent accuracy here, but.....
One of the most memorable remarks I heard, when I taught the advanced grading class at the ANA seminar, was "So that's what an MS67 looks like".
I had just shown one of my students a PCGS MS67 Walking Liberty Half Dollar. Prior to that, he hadn’t seen one graded anywhere near that high, and had no idea what an extremely well preserved example could look like. In other words, he had been operating largely in the dark, because he didn’t have the perspective of having seen the upper end of the quality scale. Many other students were in the same disadvantageous position. And many collectors (and even dealers) in this hobby are too.
High quality on-line images can help, somewhat. But, if you don't attend large coin shows and/or auction viewings or don’t otherwise see large numbers of coins (including high grade examples) in person, you are lacking that all- important perspective. And without it, you can't fully appreciate the quality of coins for what they are, at least relative to how others might be.
And that doesn't apply only to the numerical grading scale. The same can be said about luster, strike, eye-appeal and various types/colors of toning. And even characteristics such as PL or DPL, Full Head, FBL, FB, etc.
Please feel free to disagree, but I believe that "perspective" is easily among the most underrated and under-appreciated aspects of coin collecting. >>
Isn't this the reason why the registries were created?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>From what has been said, it appears to me the "perspective" and "experience" are one and the same. >>
You gathered that too?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>... Look at all the coins you can. Auction lot viewing is an ideal venue. >>
Couldn't agree with this more.
I remember how much I thought I knew as a coin punk back in college (more years ago than I care to admit) -- just because I had the chance to work in a B&M for a while, attend a few local shows, belong to a coin club, etc.
Then I had the chance to go to a FUN show. HA! I learned just how much I didn't know!
That little B&M shop was well over 20 years ago. I'm still learning, with no end in sight!
siliconvalleycoins.com
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>
<< <i>From what has been said, it appears to me the "perspective" and "experience" are one and the same. >>
You gathered that too?
Leo
Many collectors and dealers have a great deal of "experience", but their perspective is still, often, quite limited.
<< <i>Agree with the "find a teacher" comment.
So do I. The best way to learn about coins is to be exposed to large quantities of them AND to have a highly knowledgeable AND willing collector or dealer mentor you. Usually, it is extremely difficult to meet all of those conditions at the same time.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."