Before there was third party grading....

Kdog08 · March 12, 2009 1:47AM

Did dealers and collectors make huge issues if a coin had a little rim ding, some light hairlines or a small stratch here or there like they seem to nowadays? I am sure that the blatantly obvious polished or altered surface coin was discounted on the both the buying and selling side of the table...but were things different then? Were coins we call problems now more "acceptable"?

JCMhouston · March 12, 2009 2:07AM

Not really, problems coins were still problem coins and were discounted. Even though we didn't have grades above gem bu people still wanted problem free coins.

drwstr123 · March 12, 2009 2:28AM

Kdog08, the real problem was doing deals over distance. No digital pics, so one had to rely on written description or maybe a quick phone call. It was very hairy doing deals by mail, not even adding the aspect of time consuming. That made buys and sells difficult, and made trades a crapshoot. TPGs made for a more reliable field of play.

curly · March 12, 2009 2:41AM

The way I remember it, every dealer said they were the strictest graders and they would rarely honor other dealers grades. They were always discounting other dealer's grades. There were a lot of MS70s out there too. As bad as it is now, I would never want to go back to those days.

tahoe98 · March 12, 2009 2:46AM

...........today is much better. we have (insert tongue in cheek here) the CAC to watch out for us!

VirtualWon · March 12, 2009 3:06AM

Yeah those long distance companies were worse then the low end 3rd party grading companies.

I remember ordering 2 rolls of gem bu dimes ( forget if they were roosie or mercs ) and I popped the tube and poured out 100 coins that I doubt would grade AU 55 (maybe one or two would).

So I sent them back for a refund and guess what they said they didn't recieve them ( my guess is so they could collect the value for bu coin ).

dimples · March 12, 2009 3:56AM

This is one area where the phrase "The good ole days" does not apply. Thank God!!!!

Put together a short set of "Gem BU" quarters in the late 1970's. Sold them 5 years later and lo & behold they were all 'Super Sliders" now.

If you want to experience this now just order from the full page ads in Coin world.

19Lyds · March 12, 2009 4:01AM

Third Party Grading was not created for collectors as much as it was created for "sight unseen" inter-dealer transactions.

TwoSides2aCoin · March 12, 2009 4:07AM

Before third party grading I could grade just fine. After 3rd party grading, I could sell just fine.
The problems affiliated with TPGs are that I pay more for the same coins than I did before they came along. In some cases, much more. In other cases, much less.

There are no riddles here.

Kdog08 · March 12, 2009 4:52AM

I think TPGs are a good thing.....I just wondered if the coins that might get bodybagged now would have been more likely bought and sold without the fine toothed comb like they are sometimes put through now. Thanks for the responses!

RWB · March 12, 2009 5:28AM

Before there was third party grading…

….numismology was without form and void. Spirits moved within the firmament and the great Celator saw that all was whizzed and scrubbed and without spark of reason and devoid of the Great Light.
And the Celator said “Let there be slabs in my own image” and there were slabs. And He divided the slabbed from the bagged and that was the end of the first era.

And the Celator saw that the slabbed were without purpose and profit and not recombining into more profit, so the Celator said “There shall be multiple slabbers” and there were multiple slabbers filling the void of the light with their thousand points of glory. And the Celator saw that it was good. So ended the second era.

The thousand points of slabbers came and multiplied and so filled the firmament and the dark and the light they became as a plague upon the hosts of the Celator. And the Celator made a place for the slabbers and called it earth. He placed upon there all the slabbers who dwelt in the light and all the slabbers who dwelt in the darkenss. That was the morning and evening of the third era.

But the slabbers of the light and the slabbers of the darkness of earth fought great battles over dominion of the earth and the Celator saw that this was bad. And the Celator said “Let there be a Profit among Prophets of the earth.” And there was a Great Profit of the earth and the Celator called it “Registry Set” as the first and greatest of all Prophet of the Firmament. And so ended the fourth era.

The Registry Set Prophet brought great and wonderful Profits to the slabbers of the light; but to the slabbers of the dark the Prophet brought only woe. And they were sore afraid and begged the great Celator to hear their plea. The slabbers of the dark created a great golden turkey which they calleth “E-Bay” as in the ancient languages meaning “blessed fraud” or“ abode of snakes.” But the Celator answered not their pleas and spurned their golden gift, and bid the armies of the slabbers of the light to destroy utterly the darkness of the E-Bay slabbers. Thus ended the fifth era.

But the slabbers of the light were not content. They sought not the wisdom of the Great Profit and yearned for more and prayed to the Celator to bring them a miracle. And the Celetor heard their pleas and lamentations and said, “For as much as I created you in my own image, and have given you dominion over the slabs of the light and the slabs of the darkness, and the Bayers-of-E and of all things numismalogical, I shall grant your prayer only this one final time and no more.” And the Celator created a “Striking of the First” and a “Buyer of the Fool” and “a Buyer of the Gullible” and said, “Let there be pigeons to be plucked, and sheep to be shorn, and herds to be milked, and suckers to be shucked dry.” And thus ended the sixth era.

Yet, uncontent were the slabbers of light. And they went out over the face of the earth and formulate and matriculate and postulate and marketate and brought forth every abonomation of Genuinessness and Falseness and of all the vermin of in between and stealith the evil of the slabbers of the darkness. And the minions of shorn sheep and dry herds and plucked fowl, shucked suckers called out in woe to the Great Celator: “Help us O great one.., for we suffer mightily and our Profits are gone and we shall surely die of thirst in the sea of slabs.”

And the Celator heard their pleas; and shrugged his shoulders and sat in the great easy chair and read the Sunday Comics. Thus the Celator rested in the seventh era.

DieClash · March 12, 2009 6:55AM

But whence did the Celator bestow upon his Slabbers of Light the great emancipator CAC to restore the Great profits and create the new covenant?

<< Before there was third party grading…

….numismology was without form and void. Spirits moved within the firmament and the great Celator saw that all was whizzed and scrubbed and without spark of reason and devoid of the Great Light.
And the Celator said “Let there be slabs in my own image” and there were slabs. And He divided the slabbed from the bagged and that was the end of the first era.
And the Celator saw that the slabbed were without purpose and profit and not recombining into more profit, so the Celator said “There shall be multiple slabbers” and there were multiple slabbers filling the void of the light with their thousand points of glory. And the Celator saw that it was good. So ended the second era.
The thousand points of slabbers came and multiplied and so filled the firmament and the dark and the light they became as a plague upon the hosts of the Celator. And the Celator made a place for the slabbers and called it earth. He placed upon there all the slabbers who dwelt in the light and all the slabbers who dwelt in the darkenss. That was the morning and evening of the third era.
But the slabbers of the light and the slabbers of the darkness of earth fought great battles over dominion of the earth and the Celator saw that this was bad. Aand the Celator said “Let there be a profit among profits of the earth.” And there was a Great Profit of the earth and the Celator called it “Registry Set” as the first and greatest of all profits of the firmament. And so ended the fourth era.
The Registry Set brought great and wonderful profit to the slabbers of the light; but to the slabbers of the dark the profit brought only woe. And they were sore afraid and begged the great Celator to hear their plea. The slabbers fo the dark created a great golden turkey which they calleth “E-Bay” as in the ancient languages meaning “blessed fraud” or“ abode of snakes.” But the Celator answered not their pleas and spurned their golden gift and bid the armies of the slabbers of the light to destroy utterly the darkness of the E-Bay slabbers. Thus ended the fifth era.
But the slabbers of the light were not content. They sought not the wisdom of the Great Profit and yearned for more and prayed to the Celator to bring them a miracle. And the Celetor heard their pleas and lamentations and said, “For as much as I created you in my own image, and have given you dominion over the slabs of the light, and the slabs of the darkness, and the Bayers-of-E and of all things numismalogical, I shall grant your prayer only this one final time and no more.” And the Celator created a “Striking of the First” and a “Buyer of the Fool” and “a Buyer of the Gullible” and said “Let there be pigeons to be plucked and sheep to be shorn and herds to be milked and suckers to be sucked dry.” And thus ended the sixth era.
Yet, uncontent were the slabbers of light, and they went out over the face of the earth and formulate and matriculate and postulate and marketate and brought forth every abonomation of Genuinessness and Falseness and of all the vermin of in between and stealith the evil of the slabbers of the darkness. And the minions of shorn sheep and dry herds and plucked fowl called out in woe to the Great Celator: “Help us O great one.., for we suffer mightily and our Profits are gone and we shall surely die of thirst in the sea of slabs.”
And the Celator heard their pleas, and shrugged his shoulders and sat in the great easy chair and read the Sunday Comics. This the Celator rested in the seventh era. >>

RWB · March 12, 2009 7:04AM

Ah...the Celator does not play at dice.... (A. Einstein)

Bear · March 12, 2009 7:49AM

Where doth the Ark Angle Hall, playeth a role

in this, the creation of the World of coins?

Broadstruck · March 12, 2009 7:51AM

There where tupperware parties

AuNuggets · March 5, 2011 5:27AM

<< Before there was third party grading…

….numismology was without form and void. Spirits moved within the firmament and the great Celator saw that all was whizzed and scrubbed and without spark of reason and devoid of the Great Light.
And the Celator said “Let there be slabs in my own image” and there were slabs. And He divided the slabbed from the bagged and that was the end of the first era.

And the Celator saw that the slabbed were without purpose and profit and not recombining into more profit, so the Celator said “There shall be multiple slabbers” and there were multiple slabbers filling the void of the light with their thousand points of glory. And the Celator saw that it was good. So ended the second era.

The thousand points of slabbers came and multiplied and so filled the firmament and the dark and the light they became as a plague upon the hosts of the Celator. And the Celator made a place for the slabbers and called it earth. He placed upon there all the slabbers who dwelt in the light and all the slabbers who dwelt in the darkenss. That was the morning and evening of the third era.

But the slabbers of the light and the slabbers of the darkness of earth fought great battles over dominion of the earth and the Celator saw that this was bad. And the Celator said “Let there be a Profit among Prophets of the earth.” And there was a Great Profit of the earth and the Celator called it “Registry Set” as the first and greatest of all Prophet of the Firmament. And so ended the fourth era.

The Registry Set Prophet brought great and wonderful Profits to the slabbers of the light; but to the slabbers of the dark the Prophet brought only woe. And they were sore afraid and begged the great Celator to hear their plea. The slabbers of the dark created a great golden turkey which they calleth “E-Bay” as in the ancient languages meaning “blessed fraud” or“ abode of snakes.” But the Celator answered not their pleas and spurned their golden gift, and bid the armies of the slabbers of the light to destroy utterly the darkness of the E-Bay slabbers. Thus ended the fifth era.

But the slabbers of the light were not content. They sought not the wisdom of the Great Profit and yearned for more and prayed to the Celator to bring them a miracle. And the Celetor heard their pleas and lamentations and said, “For as much as I created you in my own image, and have given you dominion over the slabs of the light and the slabs of the darkness, and the Bayers-of-E and of all things numismalogical, I shall grant your prayer only this one final time and no more.” And the Celator created a “Striking of the First” and a “Buyer of the Fool” and “a Buyer of the Gullible” and said, “Let there be pigeons to be plucked, and sheep to be shorn, and herds to be milked, and suckers to be shucked dry.” And thus ended the sixth era.

Yet, uncontent were the slabbers of light. And they went out over the face of the earth and formulate and matriculate and postulate and marketate and brought forth every abonomation of Genuinessness and Falseness and of all the vermin of in between and stealith the evil of the slabbers of the darkness. And the minions of shorn sheep and dry herds and plucked fowl, shucked suckers called out in woe to the Great Celator: “Help us O great one.., for we suffer mightily and our Profits are gone and we shall surely die of thirst in the sea of slabs.”

And the Celator heard their pleas; and shrugged his shoulders and sat in the great easy chair and read the Sunday Comics. Thus the Celator rested in the seventh era. >>

NOW THAT'S FUNNY RIGHT THERE !!!!

LindeDad · March 5, 2011 5:45AM

<< if a coin had a little rim ding, some light hairlines or a small stratch here or there >>

Back then dealers called those Gem BU coins.

Collectors over paid out there hard earns money for them.

Collectors then tried to sell to other dealers and found out what they had.

Lot of collectors ended up disenchanted with the hobby.

Some collectors came back or staid on in the hobby after the TPG's came around that would not be here now without the change.

COALPORTER · March 5, 2011 5:47AM

"I am sure that the blatantly obvious polished or altered surface..."

That is how TPGS came to be so needed. Too many dealers would try to sell this as MS65. At the end of the 70s, hoards of morgan dollars were being sold as "gem" when they were only "Unc", so a referee was needed.

PerryHall · March 5, 2011 6:34AM

Haven't we always had third party grading where a buyer of an expensive coin showed it to an experienced friend or a trusted dealer to get another opinion?

max42565 · March 5, 2011 6:39AM

I have been buying coins since before third party grading. I dont think much of of their grading either,at least not in the area I collect(circulated barber&seated coinage). I just bought a 1907-D dime in one of our hosts holders,an AU-50. It looked ok in the picture,dipped probably but thats ok,when I examined it in hand it had clearly been semi-harshly cleaned and had a couple of gashes that I consider damage beyond normal circulation. I let the return period run out,so I am going to sell it on e-bay,but I will describe the problems it has. Just look around there are way to many problem coins in problem free holders,in my opinion. What I cant figure out is how 2 or 3 competant graders look at coins like this and put them in problem free holders.

ricko · March 5, 2011 6:39AM

Before there was third party grading.... there were no plastic collectors... and coin collecting still flourished. Cheers, RickO

CaptHenway · March 5, 2011 9:52AM

<< Third Party Grading was not created for collectors as much as it was created for "sight unseen" inter-dealer transactions. >>

No, third party grading was created by the ANA as a means of giving a buyer and a seller a neutral third-party grade AFTER a sale had already taken place and there was a dispute. We anticipated grading perhaps as many as 100 coins PER MONTH eventually.

Nobody anticipated that dealers would pregrade massive quantities of coins prior to them being sold as a marketing tool. That happened later, after we opened.

TD

kurtdog · March 5, 2011 1:19PM

<< Nobody anticipated that dealers would pregrade massive quantities of coins prior to them being sold as a marketing tool. >>

And at the same time along comes this thing called market grading. Now there's a coincidence!

crazyhounddog · March 5, 2011 1:33PM

A gem back then is the same as a is gem now. Only now it's more technical with #, and stickers and +s and *s and stuff like that....

roadrunner · March 5, 2011 2:25PM

I was looking for gem quality type coins in the 1975-1979 era and it was darn tough back then considering the rampant overgrading. There were quite a few dealers who knew what gem coins were and priced them accordingly. But your local shop was calling most anything flashy 63+ as gem...and getting gem money. We micro-graded back then as well counting every scratch, hairline, rim ding, bag mark, etc. While there was no official system covering every point from 60-70, most top dealers had their own systems to account for at least every major grade increment. I myself used a system with 60, 60+, 60++, 60+++, 65, 65+, 65++ . I rarely saw anything that was 65++, but other dealers might grade those 65/70. Superb coins grading above 65 often brought 2X to 3X the money of a 65. So you know darn well they were counting all the marks and defects on the coins.

I got my my first taste of what gem coins brought at auction in early 1975 when I coin I targeted brought 3X what I expected. And the reason was because the coin was superb. In 1975 the rush to find and buy the gems seem to really take a foothold. By 1977 it was in full gear. In 1979-80 it went parabolic.

So 10 yrs before there was truly professional 3rd party slabbing/grading (1986), there were plenty of dealers that were grading nearly on the same standards as what PCGS would eventually become. That doesn't mean everything they sold in their price lists met those standards. But they knew the difference, especially when buying for all the money at auction. Superb gem coins brought the same type of outrageous premiums that they do today. And if your coins had issues, they let you know it when buying. When things got overheated in 1979-80 and then 1985-1986 I think the dealers would be anything for real money as long as they could dump somewhere for a profit. There weren't enough real gem coins to go around and make a living. Those came out of the woodwork in the post 1986 era once owners were rewarded for their full gem coins.

roadrunner

golfer72 · March 5, 2011 8:54PM

It was actually better before the TPG's came to be. Coins traded on their own merits as opposed to today where they trade based on a label assigned by the TPG's. People collect plastic now. I see people collecting certain series in one specific grade ie MS-65 and I look at the coins and the quality is all over the map. Before TPG this would not happen. I will say the identification of counterfeit coins has been good though.

MrEureka · March 6, 2011 12:25AM

Third Party Grading was not created for collectors as much as it was created for "sight unseen" inter-dealer transactions.

As Tom said, that's not the way it all started. But you were probably thinking about PCGS, not ANACS. Still, you're confusing the means for the ends. PCGS' primary mission (besides profit) was to create a more viable and sustainable market for investment grade coins. The sight-unseen network was primarily a tool in building credibility for the product. I suspect that if PCGS thought they could have made the grading business fly without sight-unseen trading, they would never have started the exchange.

WoodenJefferson · March 6, 2011 4:52AM

Noah must have taken two of each slabs aboard the ark.

pitboss · March 6, 2011 5:00AM

I wish I could have had the insight and money back in the 50's, when I started, to pick the coins that are worth so much money today.

kurtdog · March 6, 2011 5:23AM

<< It was actually better before the TPG's came to be. Coins traded on their own merits as opposed to today where they trade based on a label assigned by the TPG's. People collect plastic now. I see people collecting certain series in one specific grade ie MS-65 and I look at the coins and the quality is all over the map. Before TPG this would not happen. I will say the identification of counterfeit coins has been good though. >>

Just look at the TPGs as realtors but appraising coins for the market. Just think of their "market grades" as just that. In fact, and, I had mentioned this, elsewhere, just look in their coin glossaries, and you won't find one mention of the term, "technical grading." That is to say, that term, or, if you will, "lost art," quite literally, isn't even in their coin vocabulary.

Hey, FWIW...

Before there was third party grading....

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