Fakes, Fraudulent auctions, PCGS slabs

streeter · February 22, 2011 12:48PM

An interesting site ---keeping track of the fraudulent coins---If I interpret it correctly.....
Looks like PCGS is the slab of choice for the fraudsters. Is someone trying to track the fakes?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/coinforgeryebay/sets/72157623094486157/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/coinforgeryebay/page19/

edit with a link that works -----a little help pleeeeze with the links ...thanks

coindeuce · February 22, 2011 1:11PM

PCGS/NGC world coin forgeries on eBay

PCGS/NGC U.S. coin forgeries on eBay

CaptHenway · February 22, 2011 11:06PM

Thank you both!
TD

sinin1 · February 22, 2011 11:21PM

75 pages in 2nd linked set

whoever put together that flickr group did an excellent job

llafoe · February 22, 2011 11:21PM

That's a LOT of fakes!

astrorat · February 23, 2011 12:04AM

Dang...

streeter · February 23, 2011 1:26AM

In the upper right corner...there is a link to photostream the site. I didn't know what to make of the site when I first perused it.

Someone ..it seems to me ...is doing a hell of a job ...with this site. They should be commended and the info should be duplicated should something happen with the flicker account.

It's a good resource for law enforcement or anybody gathering evidence to help protect the brand. All that needs to be done is to enforce the hobby protection act. That's easier said than done.

Coupdescrounge · February 23, 2011 3:41AM

Confidence destroyer.

pakasmom · February 23, 2011 3:49AM

We switched to a MAC computer because we were so tired of being targeted by viruses on our PC.

I'm now using the same logic to watch for the right coins in "other" holders.

toyz4geo · February 23, 2011 4:00AM

Thanks for the info.

It's kinda scarey out there.

pakasmom · February 23, 2011 8:39AM

I wonder how hard it would be to imbed something unique into the PCGS slabs that could be detected with some sort of hand-held scanner.

Any of you engineers have any ideas?

Frankcoins · February 23, 2011 1:47PM

<< I wonder how hard it would be to imbed something unique into the PCGS slabs that could be detected with some sort of hand-held scanner.

Any of you engineers have any ideas? >>

RFID (radio-frequency Identification) tag. Each as a unique serial number (not the slab serial number) The tag on the serial number must match the linking to
the slab serial number. That information is not avaliable except to the grading company. No looking around at Heritage listings
would reveal a CLUE about what the matching RFID code would be. Cost about 7 cents per tag. Scanners about $100, a bit
more for those than can be connected to a smart phone.

The RFID tag could be easily integrated into the insert with no modifcations to the exisitng slab shells.

Frank Provasek
BS Electrical Engineering, University of Texas at Arlington

vann · February 23, 2011 2:56PM

I think a major concern from RFID tags would be from giving thieves the ability to track coins at a show or in a vehicle and possibly even in packages.

streeter · February 24, 2011 12:53AM

The best way to solve the problem is to put the hammer down on the people selling the items and perpretrating the fraud. Acquiring these fake slabs with the intention of selling them for a profit seems to me to show INTENT. Fraud is hard to prove, because you have to prove intent.

Boom. Make an example of the sellers. You couldn't sell these at a show. The internet is the only way--pretty much--and the site I.D.'s the sellers. These sleazy sellers will roll to get a break. But it would take a concerted effort as it crosses state lines...these same sellers are selling other fake merchandise in their ebay auctions...the site is quite clear on that also.

U.S. Customs, postal authorities...somebody needs to take the bull by the horns. Sooner the better because the problem is not going away.

MikeInFL · February 24, 2011 2:16AM

<< 

<< I wonder how hard it would be to imbed something unique into the PCGS slabs that could be detected with some sort of hand-held scanner.

Any of you engineers have any ideas? >>

RFID (radio-frequency Identification) tag. Each as a unique serial number (not the slab serial number) The tag on the serial number must match the linking to
the slab serial number. That information is not avaliable except to the grading company. No looking around at Heritage listings
would reveal a CLUE about what the matching RFID code would be. Cost about 7 cents per tag. Scanners about $100, a bit
more for those than can be connected to a smart phone.

The RFID tag could be easily integrated into the insert with no modifcations to the exisitng slab shells.

Frank Provasek
BS Electrical Engineering, University of Texas at Arlington >>

And all that would do is increase the cost to counterfeiters (an RFID printer and RFID tags -- both readily available on the open market). RFID provides no security, per se. Scan a real coin, print/encode a duplicate RFID tag, insert fake coin and slab and RFID tag -- and now you have a fake slab complete with fake RFID tag.

Introducing RFID would also introduce a number of security concerns. For instance, if you had a group of slabs in your briefcase (and presuming your briefcase is not thick enough metal to stop RF energy), all I would have to do is get a scanner close to your briefcase to tell exactly what coins you had in it. Same for a case inside a parked car, etc. Get within a few feet of the coins, scan them, and you now know exactly what coins are there.

So while it would certainly make it a bit more difficult on counterfeiters, it would provide little real incremental security while introducing serious privacy and security concerns.

Mike
BS Computer Science, Georgia Institute of Technology

pakasmom · February 24, 2011 2:44AM

<< U.S. Customs, postal authorities...somebody needs to take the bull by the horns. Sooner the better because the problem is not going away. >>

streeter, I mean no disrespect and agree with you, in theory. But it's been my experience that expecting someone else to "do their job" is never as effective as being personally proactive. PCGS is the entity under attack and there is mounting urgency for them to find a way protect themselves, - and by extension, the middle class collectors.

Thank you Frank, for offering an idea!

Cratylus · February 24, 2011 3:07AM

<< 

<< 

<< I wonder how hard it would be to imbed something unique into the PCGS slabs that could be detected with some sort of hand-held scanner.

Any of you engineers have any ideas? >>

RFID (radio-frequency Identification) tag. Each as a unique serial number (not the slab serial number) The tag on the serial number must match the linking to
the slab serial number. That information is not avaliable except to the grading company. No looking around at Heritage listings
would reveal a CLUE about what the matching RFID code would be. Cost about 7 cents per tag. Scanners about $100, a bit
more for those than can be connected to a smart phone.

The RFID tag could be easily integrated into the insert with no modifcations to the exisitng slab shells.

Frank Provasek
BS Electrical Engineering, University of Texas at Arlington >>

And all that would do is increase the cost to counterfeiters (an RFID printer and RFID tags -- both readily available on the open market). RFID provides no security, per se. Scan a real coin, print/encode a duplicate RFID tag, insert fake coin and slab and RFID tag -- and now you have a fake slab complete with fake RFID tag.

Introducing RFID would also introduce a number of security concerns. For instance, if you had a group of slabs in your briefcase (and presuming your briefcase is not thick enough metal to stop RF energy), all I would have to do is get a scanner close to your briefcase to tell exactly what coins you had in it. Same for a case inside a parked car, etc. Get within a few feet of the coins, scan them, and you now know exactly what coins are there.

So while it would certainly make it a bit more difficult on counterfeiters, it would provide little real incremental security while introducing serious privacy and security concerns.

Mike
BS Computer Science, Georgia Institute of Technology >>

I have an idea that I'm pretty sure would be virtually impossible for counterfeiters to duplicate or fake, and it would prevent ALL of the security issues mentioned above. The idea could be worth some serious bucks if it were implemented, so I would prefer not to share it in an open forum, espcially since I haven't patented the idea yet. Once I figure out the feasability and implementation costs, if the numbers are neglible I would consider selling the patents rights to PCGS... if the price was right.

streeter · February 24, 2011 6:30AM

<< 

<< U.S. Customs, postal authorities...somebody needs to take the bull by the horns. Sooner the better because the problem is not going away. >>

streeter, I mean no disrespect and agree with you, in theory. But it's been my experience that expecting someone else to "do their job" is never as effective as being personally proactive. PCGS is the entity under attack and there is mounting urgency for them to find a way protect themselves, - and by extension, the middle class collectors.

Thank you Frank, for offering an idea! >>

No disrespect taken.

Most people who do biz with the Chinese understand that they blow off the concept of trademarks and patents in their culture. Most don't recognize them. It's profit at all cost..or any cost. You accept this when you do biz with them. The Chinese Govt will eventually have to put an end to it for it to cease and I doubt whether that govt would do anything about it unless that govt felt that the continuation of the problem would imperil trade between the countries. Let's face it, when the Chinese guy put melamine(toxic)in the dog food--and killed American pets---the Chinese culture doesn't value pets like we do dogs and cats, but in AMERICA , you don't screw with our dogs and cats---Something was done because it imperilled trade. The Chinese govt executed the guy.

I stumbled onto this site. That's all. If it were my BRAND to perserve, I'd be pursuing the sellers on ebay---and the site I.D.'s the sellers by name and see if the local DA will file--and on some of these sellers---they are moving a lot of fake merchandise so U.S. Customs may take an interest. Probably you've got sellers working out of trunks of their cars with no net worth and pursuing them in a civil court would be a waste of time.

The problem isn't going away. It's just hard to hit a moving target.

messydesk · February 24, 2011 6:41AM

Think outside the box for a minute. The Chinese government will do nothing to stop counterfeiting of stuff, but they have rather draconian censorship rules. All the TPGs need to do is microprint Falun Gong propaganda and instructions on how to support them on their labels or holograms in Chinese and English, much as "PCGS SECURE PLUS" is currently printed on the SP labels. Nobody casually looking at the labels would notice, and the counterfeiter now runs the risk of the Chinese censors having him detained and reprogrammed for producing forbidden propaganda.

llafoe · February 24, 2011 6:56AM

<< 

<< 

<< I wonder how hard it would be to imbed something unique into the PCGS slabs that could be detected with some sort of hand-held scanner.

Any of you engineers have any ideas? >>

RFID (radio-frequency Identification) tag. Each as a unique serial number (not the slab serial number) The tag on the serial number must match the linking to
the slab serial number. That information is not avaliable except to the grading company. No looking around at Heritage listings
would reveal a CLUE about what the matching RFID code would be. Cost about 7 cents per tag. Scanners about $100, a bit
more for those than can be connected to a smart phone.

The RFID tag could be easily integrated into the insert with no modifcations to the exisitng slab shells.

Frank Provasek
BS Electrical Engineering, University of Texas at Arlington >>

And all that would do is increase the cost to counterfeiters (an RFID printer and RFID tags -- both readily available on the open market). RFID provides no security, per se. Scan a real coin, print/encode a duplicate RFID tag, insert fake coin and slab and RFID tag -- and now you have a fake slab complete with fake RFID tag.

Introducing RFID would also introduce a number of security concerns. For instance, if you had a group of slabs in your briefcase (and presuming your briefcase is not thick enough metal to stop RF energy), all I would have to do is get a scanner close to your briefcase to tell exactly what coins you had in it. Same for a case inside a parked car, etc. Get within a few feet of the coins, scan them, and you now know exactly what coins are there.

So while it would certainly make it a bit more difficult on counterfeiters, it would provide little real incremental security while introducing serious privacy and security concerns.

Mike
BS Computer Science, Georgia Institute of Technology >>

...

Larry
BS Computer Science and Electrical Engineering, University of Hawaii; MS Information Assurance and Homeland Security, University of Maryland

PawPaul · February 24, 2011 7:34AM

streeter, I mean no disrespect and agree with you, in theory. But it's been my experience that expecting someone else to "do their job" is never as effective as being personally proactive. PCGS is the entity under attack and there is mounting urgency for them to find a way protect themselves, - and by extension, the middle class collectors.

I concur 100% , PCGS has been aware of these fakes for years now , and aside from the "Big One" ...which was not that big a deal to me, I have seen nor heard nothing except something like

"they are working on the problem "

time for a " Even Bigger One" if you ask me

Fakes, Fraudulent auctions, PCGS slabs

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