How to ID a proof seated dollar. GRADE IN! PF55!

AnkurJ · February 21, 2011 4:38AM

I have an 1868 seated dollar I believe is a proof. What should I be looking for? It has minor circulation marks.

PCGS HAS SPOKEN! PF55!

Some quick pics:
Two sets of images, straight on and tilted to show mirrors. Lighting makes hairlines look much worse than they really are.

tightbudget · February 21, 2011 5:43AM

If it's a proof AU, look for reflectivity and evidence of a wire rim. And a sharp strike.

WTCG · February 21, 2011 6:00AM

If minor circulation is present then check the rims and reeding on the edges. Proof coins should always have well struck and squared features.

AnkurJ · February 21, 2011 6:01AM

Wire rim? Will post pics tonight.

commoncents05 · February 21, 2011 6:04AM

<< Wire rim? Will post pics tonight. >>

Pictures would help greatly.

-Paul

roadrunner · February 21, 2011 6:06AM

Wire rim is often present, even if just partial. But those sharply struck edges should feel different in your hands vs. a beveled business strike. Some proofs can come with weak features in the stars, claws, feathers, etc. so lack of a fully struck coin is not automatic casue to reject it.

roadrunner

AnkurJ · February 21, 2011 6:29AM

See above for images

coinguy1 · February 21, 2011 6:34AM

Nothing about it says Proof to me.

Wolf359 · February 21, 2011 6:37AM

That is a seated dollar?

Not a proof in my opinion. The areas inside the shield should be reflective...strong rims but not strong enough...I can't match the dies to Heritage, but my search was limited.

tightbudget · February 21, 2011 6:52AM

Not a proof

TomB · February 21, 2011 7:02AM

That is not saying proof.

coinkid855 · February 21, 2011 7:06AM

I vote no as well. The rims don't look good enough.

-Paul

speety · February 21, 2011 7:20AM

This date comes very prooflike. All three of ours are slightly prooflike - with the MS-63 more than the others, it even got the designation by NGC. For this date, die markers may be needed, but a good alternative is to look for the prooflike fields inside the shield in addition to the other things mentioned by other members here.

Here is our MS-63PL, in hand it looks much more "black and white", my images were taken trying to hide the cameo effect a little...

golden · February 21, 2011 7:24AM

Not a proof.

AnkurJ · February 21, 2011 8:05AM

Thanks for the info speety. This was sold to me as a proof a few years ago. Would I have any recourse at this point? It was bought from Executive Coin Company. They are still in business today.

stealer · February 21, 2011 8:11AM

<< Thanks for the info speety. This was sold to me as a proof a few years ago. Would I have any recourse at this point? It was bought from Executive Coin Company. They are still in business today. >>

A wise man once told me to not deal with these guys.

I'd be surprised if they took it back.

coinguy1 · February 21, 2011 8:19AM

<< Thanks for the info speety. This was sold to me as a proof a few years ago. Would I have any recourse at this point? It was bought from Executive Coin Company. They are still in business today. >>

They are listed as an authorized PCGS dealer. That might give you some leverage in trying to get your money back.

WTCG · February 21, 2011 8:20AM

After viewing the pictures I agree with the others that the coin is not a proof.

AnkurJ · February 21, 2011 8:26AM

Thanks. Will give it a shot. It's been sitting in my Dansco 7070 album since I bought it. I took their word for it and assumed it was a proof. MaybeI will have to send it to PCGS first?

coinguy1 · February 21, 2011 8:33AM

<< Thanks. Will give it a shot. It's been sitting in my Dansco 7070 album since I bought it. I took their word for it and assumed it was a proof. MaybeI will have to send it to PCGS first? >>

If it looks anything like the images, it's not a Proof. I'd show it to a couple of dealers, and if they say business strike, contact the seller. If they won't cooperate, tell them you will take it up with PCGS (and the ANA, as I see they are an ANA member)

roadrunner · February 21, 2011 8:50AM

You might have a shot with ANA if you are a member as well. If not, forget that route as they will side with the dealer. All they have to say is that's not the same coin. Do you have photographic proof or a sealed orig envelope to prove it came from them? Otherwise just your word against theirs.

They are BBB members as well. I know most members like to keep their feedback positive. A complaint to the BBB would certainly get their attention if they don't want to cooperate. After a couple years I'd be leery of someone coming back with a coin. It has dropped in value in that time so expect for that to be taken into account.

A "minor" point is that this particular date (1868) is probably worth more as a MS60 business strike than a PF60, which is what you bought. It gets a little more dicey as AU58 vs PF58 but probably still within a few hundred bucks. In my mind, for most lower mintage Philly coins from 1860-1890 I would value circ proofs at slightly to moderately less than the business strikes. There is probably more demand for business strike date sets than proof sets. Not a proof imo. Looks to have a light cleaning, esp. the reverse. For my money I think it's worth more as a circ business strike but the point could be argued either way depending on who you talk to. 1868 is a tough date in full mint state. According to my last CW CoinValues it brings a significant premium to common dates in AU58.

roadrunner

COALPORTER · February 21, 2011 8:58AM

you are better off NOT having a Proof, imo. esp if below P60.

ebaybuyer · February 21, 2011 9:00AM

a high end business strike 1868 dollar is worth more than a circ proof, (unless you severely overpaid) so you would actually owe them money.

coinguy1 · February 21, 2011 9:04AM

<< you are better off NOT having a Proof, imo. esp if below P60.

>>

CDN lists a PF60 at $1700 and AU at $750. So a slightly impaired Proof could be worth more than an AU business strike - it depends on the condition of the coin. But the OP could be a lot worse off than he is.

roadrunner · February 21, 2011 9:09AM

<< 

<< you are better off NOT having a Proof, imo. esp if below P60.

>>

CDN lists a PF60 at $1700 and AU at $750. So a slightly impaired Proof could be worth more than an AU business strike - it depends on the condition of the coin. But the OP could be a lot worse off than he is. >>

My old CW CoinValues shows AU50 at $1000 and AU58 at $2000....a doubling of price. So based on the CDN, an AU58 might fetch $1500 min. To me it would be more desireable than a PF60 ($1700). World of difference in better date seated dollars from AU50 to AU58.

If sent to PCGS and comes back bagged or genuine, you might have some chance at recourse with Executive. I don't know of too many dealers who give a 3 yr warranty in writing. And regardless of date, if you wanted a proof and didn't get one, that's what matters.

roadrunner

coinguy1 · February 21, 2011 9:15AM

<< 

<< 

<< you are better off NOT having a Proof, imo. esp if below P60.

>>

CDN lists a PF60 at $1700 and AU at $750. So a slightly impaired Proof could be worth more than an AU business strike - it depends on the condition of the coin. But the OP could be a lot worse off than he is. >>

My Oct 2008 CW CV shows AU50 at $1000 and AU58 at $2000....a doubling of price. So based on the CDN, an AU58 might fetch $1500 min. To me it would be more desireable than a PF60 ($1700). World of difference in better date seated dollars from AU50 to AU58...not so much different than XF45+ vs. MS60.

roadrunner >>

If it's an AU58, it would be more valuable than a slightly impaired Proof. As an AU 55, perhaps not. And less than AU55, bad deal.

roadrunner · February 21, 2011 9:29AM

Agreed. Looks to have AU58/60 details imo. I'd be more concerned about a no grade. That could make $500+ difference right there.

roadrunner

AnkurJ · February 21, 2011 12:50PM

New images added.

HoledandCreative · February 21, 2011 4:10PM

Those latest pictures make it look pretty good.

WoodenJefferson · February 21, 2011 6:36PM

So, exactly what do we have going here then...maybe some worn proof dies were used to strike up this coin, a proof planchet got mixed in with business plans, a new set of dies along with a nice planchet, what?

There must be some sort of convergence going on here to create this coin.

ricko · February 21, 2011 10:50PM

A very nice business strike, not proof. Cheers, RickO

AnkurJ · February 21, 2011 11:04PM

I guess the question now is if it will slab.

crypto79 · February 21, 2011 11:14PM

Date placement is the best way to determine if the Proof die was used on large 19th Cen issues that often come PL like SLD or DE, IMO.

CoinRaritiesOnline · February 22, 2011 2:33AM

It does not appear to have the reverse die of all the proofs of that year. On the proof die, there is a thin "spine" that runs from the lowest arrowhead to the inner curve of the L.

So -- I vote business strike.

I would also venture a guess that it would end up in a Genuine holder due to cleaning.

AnkurJ · February 22, 2011 3:37AM

Any other thoughts?

crypto79 · February 22, 2011 4:24AM

I think it will GEN94 because there seems to me to be a spot that was worked/smoothed/tooled by star 5 to remove carbon. That combined with the dipped out look, I do not see it being a coin they would want to back with their house's money

AnkurJ · March 24, 2011 9:46AM

Ttt

magikbilly · March 24, 2011 10:02AM

Hi,

Thanks for bumping this or I would have missed it. It was very interesting. Reminded me of another thread, a very lively and long monster thread about a Proof dollar - not Pr in that case.

Best,
Eric

relicsncoins · March 24, 2011 10:03AM

The dangers of making diffinitive statements based on photos.

llafoe · March 24, 2011 10:05AM

I vote Proof!

Baley · March 24, 2011 10:11AM

Yes, an obvious proof coin. Good on ya!

magikbilly · March 24, 2011 10:58AM

Hi again,

It would be interesting to see the first set(s) of posted photographs.

Best,
Eric

IrishMikey · March 25, 2011 3:08AM

Glad you didn't take any of the advice about contacting the seller for a refund, at
least you let the experts give it a shot first.

michiganboy · April 5, 2012 4:02AM

This thread was good bit of education for me. Thanks

keyman64 · April 5, 2012 4:41AM

Interesting to see how many well respected members were WRONG. Wowzers.

LanceNewmanOCC · April 5, 2012 5:11AM

<< This thread was good bit of education for me. Thanks >>

daaaang

since ankurj started the thread, i thought he was back, then i looked at the original post date ><

nice to see he is still loggin in
.

crypto79 · April 5, 2012 6:00AM

While I have my suspicions that this resurrection is just a lame attempt to stir the pot, it is telling how many how many of the original posters back then are no longer with us today.

michiganboy · April 5, 2012 7:09AM

<< Interesting to see how many well respected members were WRONG. Wowzers. >>

This is why I found it interesting it had nothing to do with AnkurJ Bamming, just a typical look as how bashing to the ego this place can be even when the bashers could be wrong. Its hard to be new here and excited about numismatics when all you exciting finds are shot down by some members. So no pot stirring here Crypto. Just a interesting statistical look at opinions thats why I still post and haven't given up learning when I can.

mrpotatoheadd · April 5, 2012 7:13AM

<< Interesting to see how many well respected members were WRONG. Wowzers. >>

The fact PCGS graded the coin as they did is not proof that the posters in this thread were WRONG, you know.

How to ID a proof seated dollar. GRADE IN! PF55!

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