With all the AT coins on the market...
llafoe
Posts: 7,220 ✭✭
do you think there'll come a day when collectors will shy away from toned coins in favor of blast white coins?
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Or many are avoiding those wild toned pieces.
you might be on to something !
Would you prefer a dipped out white coin?
There are folks on both sides of the spectrum and the hobby was white/untoned preferred and then went heavy wild toning. Now, it has moderated a bit, but there are still proponents on both sides.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Where at? I rarely see AT coins in pcgs and ngc holders. Now AT raw coins on ebay is a completely different animal.
The way you phrased it, sounds like that's all that's out there is AT graded coins?
The red-herrings will be chemistry, the availability of MS70 and harsher dips now, and the presence of certification services and their opinion of the markets.
Although the past can help us determine the future, the flip-flops may be harder to determine. But, I believe those who are willing to really 'pay up' for a wildly toned coin understand the market and the toning they are paying for . . . .for the most part.
Those who buy the eBay schlock that is toned by the rube . . .we don't really care what they do anyway.
Drunner
(Resident Doily Afficionado and Plastic Nut)
<< <i>
Drunner
(Resident Doily Afficionado and Plastic Nut) >>
Doilyologist and Plasticologist!!
FIFY
<< <i>The history of the hobby, at least in recorded times, would indicate a bit of flip-flopping between blast-white and toned. Some eras one or the other is in vogue.
The red-herrings will be chemistry, the availability of MS70 and harsher dips now, and the presence of certification services and their opinion of the markets.
Although the past can help us determine the future, the flip-flops may be harder to determine. But, I believe those who are willing to really 'pay up' for a wildly toned coin understand the market and the toning they are paying for . . . .for the most part.
Those who buy the eBay schlock that is toned by the rube . . .we don't really care what they do anyway.
Drunner
(Resident Doily Afficionado and Plastic Nut) >>
There will always be a market for the really nice bag toned A box Morgans.
1) Dipping is harmful. It tears layers from a coin and destroys much of the history of the coin. While there are some cases where the benefits of a dip outweigh the harm done, it is important to keep in mind that harm is done.
2) Over the last four years, the PCGS has done a good job at detecting AT coins. No system will ever be perfect.
3) While the PCGS Coin Sniffer cannot identify all cases of AT, it can detect many that humans miss and humans can detect cases that a sniffer will miss. A combination of human experts and a Coin Sniffer can accomplish a great deal.
The Formal Introduction of the PCGS ‘Coin Sniffer’ at the PCGS Luncheon
Defining Coin Doctoring and Dipping, Additions to the PCGS Lawsuit Against Alleged Coin Doctors – 09/08/10
I have noticed the ones that stay around in albums, folders, etc turn colors that are just not natural
even blast white coins in my PCI slabs turned dirty orange around the edges
and PCGS slabs are not even airtight - I checked out those Capital Plastics thingys but they let air in as well
my solution is to keep my collection in usable items formed with lucite plastic, which I keep around the house to enjoy
the following is just one example of part of my collection
100% Positive BST transactions
<< <i>White coins have lots fewer "surprises." >>
Wouldn't surprise me in the least if that a few years down the road a "luster sniffer" is created that can tell the depth of original luster on white or mostly white coins. In that event, it will become a big deal on whether a coin has 95% or 99% or 100% of it's original mint-made luster. There may be white coins in holders already that are in the 80-90% luster range that "look" market acceptable and generally don't appear much different than the 90-100% coins. If PCGS is looking for another niche to regrade a ton of coins to separate the pretenders from the real thing, that would be a marvelous way to go. And there would be plenty of surprises. Forget Full Band or Full Head...Full Luster (FL) coins would be in huge demand and prices for FL coins would quickly separate themselves from dipped, and redipped coins.
roadrunner
<< <i>With all the AT coins on the market...
Where at? I rarely see AT coins in pcgs and ngc holders. >>
No offense meant whatsoever Jon, but oh!, how I wish I was still that naive!
Allow me to share with you an exerpt from a PM I rec'd. from one of the foremost and respected dealers of toned coins:
"I meet with Hall and Willis at a Long Beach show with several examples in hand, a thick file folder full of images and documentation including the name and all the contact info for said doctor. I even sent Willis video evidence of how he does it. Both he and David asked me if I would be willing to make a presentation to the graders; I agreed to and never heard anymore from them. "
Note: He is not referring to this years Long Beach. This was a year or two ago.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>do you think there'll come a day when collectors will shy away from toned coins in favor of blast white coins? >>
IMO there will always be those collectors that like white and those that like toned and those like myself who like both kind as long as they are eye appealing and cool coooool...
There is one more thing that i should mention...
AB
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
and I will be the first to admit the subject has been beat to death many times over -
there are far more A.T coins in TPG holders then many of you will ever believe ............
Consider the ‘before & after’ pictures of a dipped half dollar that were published by Anthony Swiatek and later reprinted in Scott Travers’ Coin Collector’s Survival Manual. With a powerful microscope, it can be determined now if a coin was ever dipped, and the extent of a dipping can be roughly interpreted. It is very plausible that a computer program could be written that would make a more precise determination. Even if a new designation is never adopted, it might be interesting to demonstrate the extent to which a coin has been harmed by dipping. At the very least, potential buyers may wish to have such information before deciding whether to purchase a coin.
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 1
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 3
U.S. Type Set
<< <i>While a person CAN make money from coin collecting (and certainly can lose money from coin collecting), there is only one thing a person can be sure of, "Do you like the look of the coin?". Buy the coins (that you believe are reasonably priced) that you like the looks of. You will be happy with your collection, and the odds are that if you like the looks of the coins so will other people (thus providing downstream buyers). >>
Well-said. I agree with you.
<< <i>AuroraBorealis, what is your opinion of the Battle Creeks? >>
Time to bring out the popcorn.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>do you think there'll come a day when collectors will shy away from toned coins in favor of blast white coins? >>
A similar question was probably asked when coin coin cleaning was the rage.
PS why anybody would feel that the Battle Creeks are AT is beyond me
Toned Morgans are a dime a dozen it seems like, although the prices don't reflect it.
<< <i>AuroraBorealis, bag toning can be duplicated, and rather quickly, by at least two methods that I am familiar with. Cheers, RickO >>
RickO i value and appreciate your opinion...But i have never seen an attempt at duplicating bag toning that was of the caliber and proper characteristics of a naturally bag toned Morgan...If one knows what to look for they can be spotted...If you have a pic of such a coin i would love to see it...In "Every" instance that i saw the number one give away was "the something doesn`t look right look"...Starting with the over all color... Guess the best way to describe the color is plain and simple not the right colors of what a naturally toned Morgie looks like and also the proper progression and graduation of the colors... And the attempt at textile doesn`t have the proper progressions of color as well like ONE color versus a graduation of colors surrounding the textile...I am a firm believer in nothing can replace the experience at viewing IN HAND many many naturally toned Morgans to know what the impostors look like...
There is something else...In my collection of Morgans i have painstakingly and very carefully collected some of the finest toned Morgans known...Many of which have a history that go back to coming right from the mint bag and others that came from great collections...With the except of just a few that were purchased from auctions all were purchased from well known and respected coin dealers. One in particular that had experience with toned Morgan for over 30 years and also graded professionally at one time...
Now if you feel like i am out to lunch on any of what i just said please show me one of these impostors so i and everyone else knows what to look for...
All the best...AB
<< <i>
<< <i>AuroraBorealis, bag toning can be duplicated, and rather quickly, by at least two methods that I am familiar with. Cheers, RickO >>
RickO i value and appreciate your opinion...But i have never seen an attempt at duplicating bag toning that was of the caliber and proper characteristics of a naturally bag toned Morgan...If one knows what to look for they can be spotted...If you have a pic of such a coin i would love to see it...In "Every" instance that i saw the number one give away was "the something doesn`t look right look"...Starting with the over all color... Guess the best way to describe the color is plain and simple not the right colors of what a naturally toned Morgie looks like and also the proper progression and graduation of the colors... And the attempt at textile doesn`t have the proper progressions of color as well like ONE color versus a graduation of colors surrounding the textile...I am a firm believer in nothing can replace the experience at viewing IN HAND many many naturally toned Morgans to know what the impostors look like...
There is something else...In my collection of Morgans i have painstakingly and very carefully collected some of the finest toned Morgans known...Many of which have a history that go back to coming right from the mint bag and others that came from great collections...With the except of just a few that were purchased from auctions all were purchased from well known and respected coin dealers. One in particular that had experience with toned Morgan for over 30 years and also graded professionally at one time...
Now if you feel like i am out to lunch on any of what i just said please show me one of these impostors so i and everyone else knows what to look for...
All the best...AB
Ricko believes that Bag toned Morgans are easily reproduced.... yet not 1 image of these AT bag toners has not ever been posted by him, so IMO he's comments hold no water.
<< <i> I have heard in the past of original O mint Morgan bags being exposed to chemicals to tone them before being opened in public to give them legitimacy.
"Bags"?
Ironic that the softer strikes and die rust of O-mints (both generalizations, not absolutes) would make them the least likely candidates for taking on colors anyway.
In what year did this supposedly happen? Been a national dealer for over 30 years and never heard it. Does "opened in public" mean or suggest a promotion?
MrEureka bought me sushi last night ( no Aki
PCGS has graded $20 billion in value - 1.5% dollar value but multiples of our host's cash value. Any guesses on the dollar value of the coins that are "artificially white".
<< <i>Again, I'm not seeing all these "AT coins in pcgs and ngc holders" especially in the series I collect, Washingtons and Franklins. Besides the blue two sided toning that was on some 1954 dated coins on TT. I consider myself almost an expert in detecting AT coins within the series I collect, and I don't own any AT coins in my collection.
Toned Morgans are a dime a dozen it seems like, although the prices don't reflect it. >>
...............The two series of my seeing the most blatant area of A.T coins is the Washington's and Franklins .
The doctoring is so sophisticated and advanced , with such emphasis on reproducing the exact look of a N.T toned coin ,
that I have no doubt what so ever several of the PCGS coins in my collection of over 400 pieces are "done".
The professional graders I dare say see far , far more raw coins then I have seen in my entire lifetime , and me knowing more then one professional doctor(and believing their claims of
fooling the TPG's on a regular basis )- I see no real value in me claiming my expertise protects me from buying/owning A.T coins .
Nor can I wish away the very serious and underestimated problem of the flood of A.T coins on the marketplace
by simply refusing to accept their existence .
his "water" would be more then enough to drown you ....... and the cry of not having pix of the A.T coins has gotten so very , very old .
Several of the TOP coin people in the WORLD are privy to info and facts that make it quite clear that the art of artificially toning coins is so sophisticated that even "experts" can not detect them .
If you had know a doctor or two as I have , for a couple of decades they have show me their b4 and after handiwork ; you might be more inclined to accept the facts .
For reason's I can not begin to comprehend , a lot of folks are bound and determined to believe the A.T coins in TPG's are rare
- that the problem is way over blown
-that true "experts " can detect them with little effort
- that without pictures of such coins the premise is faulty
............. nothing could be further from the truth
<< <i>
<< <i> I have heard in the past of original O mint Morgan bags being exposed to chemicals to tone them before being opened in public to give them legitimacy.
"Bags"?
Ironic that the softer strikes and die rust of O-mints (both generalizations, not absolutes) would make them the least likely candidates for taking on colors anyway.
In what year did this supposedly happen? Been a national dealer for over 30 years and never heard it. Does "opened in public" mean or suggest a promotion?
>>
Opened in public could most likely mean opened in front of witnesses who could corroborate that the bag was sealed at the time and the contents verified.
<< <i>
<< <i>Again, I'm not seeing all these "AT coins in pcgs and ngc holders" especially in the series I collect, Washingtons and Franklins. Besides the blue two sided toning that was on some 1954 dated coins on TT. I consider myself almost an expert in detecting AT coins within the series I collect, and I don't own any AT coins in my collection.
Toned Morgans are a dime a dozen it seems like, although the prices don't reflect it. >>
...............The two series of my seeing the most blatant area of A.T coins is the Washington's and Franklins .
The doctoring is so sophisticated and advanced , with such emphasis on reproducing the exact look of a N.T toned coin ,
that I have no doubt what so ever several of the PCGS coins in my collection of over 400 pieces are "done".
The professional graders I dare say see far , far more raw coins then I have seen in my entire lifetime , and me knowing more then one professional doctor(and believing their claims of
fooling the TPG's on a regular basis )- I see no real value in me claiming my expertise protects me from buying/owning A.T coins .
Nor can I wish away the very serious and underestimated problem of the flood of A.T coins on the marketplace
by simply refusing to accept their existence . >>
Please send me any pics of AT Washingtons and Franklin in TPG plastic via PM or here. I've seen many AT coins in TPG holders, but very very few compared to beautiful naturally toned coins in
TPG plastic. I know they exist, but I don't believe the doctors are so good that they could fool me. Out of 80+ graded toners in my collection I'm confident not 1 is AT.
But really I just wish someone would post images of these graded coins, any denomination would work. It's good to educate other people not so comfortable determining AT from NT.
Anyway i`ll get off my soap box now...
AB
I did not have the opportunity to take pix of the coins I was shown .........
Doctors evolve into the art -they just don't one day say -hey -lemme be a doctor from this day on .
They tend to work coins they are familiar with, coin series they know well - coins they have a market for .
Years ago their craft was relatively unknown , and they worked coins they sold at shows .
Then they branched out into bigger and better and more expensive items .
Remember , they try to start with a very high end for the grade brilliant coin , and knowing what a real
toned one in their series looks like -(and what people want) they try to reproduce that "look" .
They don't begin with 5000$ coins , as it's tricky and coins can get wrecked - it takes balls to A.T an
expensive coin , and by experimentation with cheaper coins - they gradually move up to the big leagues.
These guy's would search for white , already slabbed stuff -and they weigh the pros and con's
of working the coin - sometimes , if the coin won't "take" the tone - they hope they can
dip it clean and get it back in it's orig. grade holder - but as we know ; that's a crap shoot.
Some dates, some years don't take the tone well - some alloy's are ruff to do - some series
don't have the demand for the Rainbows - thus Washington's and Franklins , which are known to exist
with fantastic toning from mint sets are a prime target for " learning" .
The processes they use are sometimes complex - but it's basic chemistry , they accelerate the process
that often take's nature many years to do .
Then after years of trial and error , they perfect their method and they join a very elite group
of profession's that "work" others coins as well as the ones they own . Just like any "good
'ole boy's club" they compete and brag and pat each other on the back: and they learn from
each other how to become more effective and more deceiving .
They have learned how to use mule's, how to "salt" submissions , how to enhance their chances
of getting coins holdered . And they evolve......... , getting better and better and BETTER .
You don't read about them in books or the newspapers .........
You don't hear anything but murmurs and rumors and word of mouth here say .....
You won't see an album of their portfolio masterpieces , and nary a one will admit anything to
an "outsider" - but they chuckle and beam when they see one of their pieces in a big auction or
being added to a world class collection . It is not common knowledge as to what they do or how
they do it , it not something your gonna start to believe by seeing cold hard facts .
that one learned feller said he estimates $330 million of the TPG stuff on the market .........
I think of the 2 or 3 billion dollars of "do-able" coins on and in the marketplace , that's
a good guess . It wouldn't surprise me at all if 1 of every 8 toned coins you see are "done" .
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
good points for you Sir !
Someone like yourself , a toned Morgan specialist , would not easily be fooled
And it is not easy to reproduce bag toning on Morgans ; but a fistful of people in the world can do it with ease .
As to the ability to do it to the degree of being 100% detectable , that is a different matter .
Years ago it was a different ball game - now the TPG's are fully aware of what their up against and are doing everything in their power to
see to it no A.T coin get's past them - I will give you that
<< <i>AuroraBorealis, bag toning can be duplicated, and rather quickly, by at least two methods that I am familiar with. Cheers, RickO >>
Sorry, I think you are mistaken. At least with respect to toning that would fool experienced collectors and dealers.
<< <i>I think it's rather obvious and common knowledge that bag toning can be replicated. The GSA coins have a much more subdued natural tone to them that the so called neon bag toners. I have heard in the past of original O mint Morgan bags being exposed to chemicals to tone them before being opened in public to give them legitimacy. That being said I love the look of the so called bag toners but I just don't believe in paying the huge premiums that some do.
And I think you are mistaken, too. I hear these claims and rumors from time to time, but have never seen them documented.
Government issue holders from 1947-1958 can be used to tone brilliant coins ; how ever , after decades the cardboard and paper and the envelopes loose their components
that made them such rainbow producers in the first place, leached out by time ..........
So , brand new card board and paper is substituted , with as close to the Gov. issue chemical composition as possible .
Then the brilliant coins are placed ( having their surfaces carefully and gently "stripped" ) in the fabricated holders and under specific conditions ( via trial and error) in a controlled environment ,
the same process that take's mother nature decades to do is accelerated .
The outcome is coins that look almost identical to real mint set coins .
The market is flooded with these coins ; the best way to describe the difference between the real McCoy and these A.T one's is the "depth" of the tone .
Something that takes many years to do naturally can not be exactly re-produced in a short period of time ,
and the tone , although extremely authentic looking , just doesn't get "deeply" into the surface .
Anyone who has had the pleasure of popping out legitimate original real mint set coins with virgin luster would know what I'm trying to describe ..........
I see these "shallowly" toned "mint set" productions with great regularity for sale on eBay by reputable sellers who I'm sure believe they are selling fully original , 100 % authentic , Mint Set products
<< <i>yawn >>
The brilliant coins that are used for the A.T sets are obtained mostly from coins that came out of rolls , and there for have various degree's of roll friction not apparent on
the real McCoy's
Good luck with your future Numismatic endeavors
JON
A roll of these.
Some like this.
A few more of these??
According to some it should be a piece of cake.
I expect the biggest issue must be getting them into the right holder.