A "CoinSniffer" question.
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
Is the PCGS CoinSniffer able to detect whether a Blast White Brilliant "as Minted" coin has been dipped to look that way?? Thanks in advance.
Al H.
Al H.
0
Comments
<< <i>Secure Plus is designed to detect any organic or inorganic material on the surface of the coin. The Sniffer is part of that process. >>
Is "dipping" a coin considered to be a process that would prevent the grading/slabbing of a coin?
<< <i>Do you process all coins that are sent in? >>
No, just those sent in for secure. Non secure submitted coins are scanned at PCGS' discretion.
<< <i>
<< <i>Secure Plus is designed to detect any organic or inorganic material on the surface of the coin. The Sniffer is part of that process. >>
Is "dipping" a coin considered to be a process that would prevent the grading/slabbing of a coin? >>
No.
<< <i>Secure Plus is designed to detect any organic or inorganic material on the surface of the coin. The Sniffer is part of that process. >>
Acetone is an organic solvent which quickly evaporates from the surface of a coin at room temperature. There should not be any acetone on the surface of a coin while being graded.
<< <i>
<< <i>Secure Plus is designed to detect any organic or inorganic material on the surface of the coin. The Sniffer is part of that process. >>
Acetone is an organic solvent which quickly evaporates from the surface of a coin at room temperature. There should not be any acetone on the surface of a coin while being graded. >>
Finally someone answers the question that was asked!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Secure Plus is designed to detect any organic or inorganic material on the surface of the coin. The Sniffer is part of that process. >>
Acetone is an organic solvent which quickly evaporates from the surface of a coin at room temperature. There should not be any acetone on the surface of a coin while being graded. >>
Finally someone answers the question that was asked! >>
Notsofastmyfriend. The question was about dipping. I'd bet the thing that pops into most folks' minds when hearing the word dip is not acetone, but more likely an acid based dip like EZest/jeweluster. In most cases an acetone dip will do NOTHING for a proof coin.
We don't have a problem with acetone either.
We do have a problem with coins that have been "refrosted" to produce that cameo look.
is that correct, Don??
<< <i>quite often an improperly rinsed coin will retone over a period of several months which indicates that not all the E*Z*EST was removed. i assume that in such cases the "sniffer" would be able to detect such a substance. the same thing would apply to coins rinsed/dipped/cleaned with MS70, BlueRibbon or any other product which might be used to retone a coin.
is that correct, Don?? >>
You probably should have been more specific about whether a coin was properly dipped or improperly dipped. I would assume that it could detect improperly dipped coins even before it manifested itself visually. Not sure why it matters since we all know that dipping is acceptable. If you dipped a coin and 2 weeks later PCGS said it had residue on it, would they rinse it more or send it back and tell you to fix it? Is that what you want to know?
this isn't a trick question, really.
<< <i> Is that what you want to know?
this isn't a trick question, really. >>
I know.
<< <i>We don't have a problem with dipping unless the coin has been over dipped.
We don't have a problem with acetone either.
We do have a problem with coins that have been "refrosted" to produce that cameo look. >>
Can PCGS coin sniffer identify laser "refrosted" proofs??
Secure Plus is designed to detect any organic or inorganic material on the surface of the coin. The Sniffer is part of that process.
I answered that way on purpose. That answer addresses all the questions in this post.
Just because we find something doesn't mean the coin necessarily gets body bagged.
AB
<< <i>Please read my original post.
Secure Plus is designed to detect any organic or inorganic material on the surface of the coin. The Sniffer is part of that process.
I answered that way on purpose. That answer addresses all the questions in this post.
Just because we find something doesn't mean the coin necessarily gets body bagged. >>
Don this interaction is great, the more we know about PCGS rules and guide lines the better.
I am sure this interaction will generate other posts of PCGS related questions, answered by PCGS experts..
<< <i>quite often an improperly rinsed coin will retone over a period of several months which indicates that not all the E*Z*EST was removed. i assume that in such cases the "sniffer" would be able to detect such a substance. the same thing would apply to coins rinsed/dipped/cleaned with MS70, BlueRibbon or any other product which might be used to retone a coin.
is that correct, Don?? >>
I can't recall all of the substances the sniffer is looking for but BlueRibbon is one of them.
It isn't clear to me if the detection of BlueRibbon is an automatic BB, or if it is just something PCGS considers during its evaluation of the coin. I always thought the stuff was pretty innocuous.
Lance.
<< <i>i thought the point of the CoinSniffer was the elimination of doctored coins/foreign substances being applied to coins. >>
It is, but not all things are added to coins for the purpose of doctoring. Using acetone to remove PVC is one thing. If you use a crappy grade, or do a lousy job there could be residues left on the coin. There is no purpose for adding putty other than deception.
<< <i>quite often an improperly rinsed coin will retone over a period of several months which indicates that not all the E*Z*EST was removed. i assume that in such cases the "sniffer" would be able to detect such a substance. the same thing would apply to coins rinsed/dipped/cleaned with MS70, BlueRibbon or any other product which might be used to retone a coin.
is that correct, Don?? >>
Actually a good, astute, question. Who wants to buy a supposedly brilliant coin only to have it turn in the holder. I have seen this happen several times.
Most notably a selection of early commems.
If the sniffer detects these substances, does that mean that there is enough left on the surface of the coin to cause the coin to turn?
<< <i>
<< <i>quite often an improperly rinsed coin will retone over a period of several months which indicates that not all the E*Z*EST was removed. i assume that in such cases the "sniffer" would be able to detect such a substance. the same thing would apply to coins rinsed/dipped/cleaned with MS70, BlueRibbon or any other product which might be used to retone a coin.
is that correct, Don?? >>
Actually a good, astute, question. Who wants to buy a supposedly brilliant coin only to have it turn in the holder. I have seen this happen several times.
Most notably a selection of early commems.
If the sniffer detects these substances, does that mean that there is enough left on the surface of the coin to cause the coin to turn? >>
Is there any sort of published, documented or controlled study that actually verifies that residual dip is indeed the culprit when changes occur down the road or is this another situation involving a lot of SWAGging?
<< <i>i thought the point of the CoinSniffer was the elimination of doctored coins/foreign substances being applied to coins. >>
The point of it is to help PCGS determine which coins it wants to call "market acceptable." Remember, when they grade and slab these coins, they're putting their trademark behind that.
On your original question, read Don's replies. You can supplement those replies with the answers I got when I asked the same exact question in several other recent threads; namely, that dipping doesn't leave behind residual trace elements. I'm not saying I know that for a fact. I'm saying that's the sum-and-substance of the answers I got.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
putty is "deception" by addition while E*Z*EST would be "deception" by subtraction, hence my reason for the question. as ricko would say, a rose by any other name.....................
-----MadMonk, thanks for at least understanding what i'm driving at. i have also witnessed coins that have changed from brilliant to faint gold in what i assume is a fresh encapsulation.
Is there any sort of published, documented or controlled study that actually verifies that residual dip is indeed the culprit when changes occur
you can do this yourself at home and "document" it without leaving the coin out of your sight. when i routinely dipped Proof Modern coins to remove haze part of the process was to allow the coin(s) to sit undisturbed for about a week on a cloth, turning them daily, till i was satisfied that the rinse was effective. the coins seen in holders referenced above show the same signs as those which needed to be re-dipped/rinsed.
<< <i> There is no purpose for adding putty other than deception
putty is "deception" by addition while E*Z*EST would be "deception" by subtraction, hence my reason for the question. as ricko would say, a rose by any other name.....................
-----MadMonk, thanks for at least understanding what i'm driving at. i have also witnessed coins that have changed from brilliant to faint gold in what i assume is a fresh encapsulation.
Is there any sort of published, documented or controlled study that actually verifies that residual dip is indeed the culprit when changes occur
you can do this yourself at home and "document" it without leaving the coin out of your sight. when i routinely dipped Proof Modern coins to remove haze part of the process was to allow the coin(s) to sit undisturbed for about a week on a cloth, turning them daily, till i was satisfied that the rinse was effective. the coins seen in holders referenced above show the same signs as those which needed to be re-dipped/rinsed. >>
I was under the impression that the reddish brown peripheral color frequently seen on coins [like the 1880-O Morgan pic I will add] is frequently the result of improper rinsing after dipping. I don't know if that is what happened to this coin or not. How long does it take for it to manifest itself to such a degree?
As for dipping, it is generally not considered to be deceptive, but one can always find a few examples where it could be.
Oops, fergot the pic.
<< <i>what i see and identify as the result of an improper rinse is a faint gold color which is even spread over all or part of a coin. it's one of those things that if you know what it looks like you can usually identify it. the Morgan you mentioned doesn't sound like the same thing, it sounds more like tone which might come from those cheap 2X2 staple together holders. >>
The coins turn from white, to light gold all over the surface of the coin. Not necessarily even, and often splotchy. This gets darker as time passes. And we are not talking a long time here, it happens fast, like within a year or two.
After collecting coins for well over 30 years, and being a vest pocket dealer for about 20 of them, I can trust my empirical observations, and
not worry about any published data or studies. These so called studies are like anythig else, influenced by desires, or dogma.
The commems I mentioned were a local dealer who bought a whole collection. He dipped almost all of them to make them white.
They all had perfectly acceptable, and marketable, patinas. He sent them off to be encapsulated by IGC. None BBd. He then asked moon money for them, causing them to sit in his inventory. Within a year, they were turning, and within 2 years, they were ugly.
I told him to at least do a 3 stage acetone dip, but you know the indignant "I've dipped a few coins in my life" reply.
I am not against dipping, per say, but I have to say that I have seen much more worsening than improving a coin from it.
PR 64
yeah, we've all had about six months since it was unveiled so we should be educated about it already. nice try.
------------MadMonk, your description is pretty much the same thing i've witnessed. typically a coin probably gets submitted looking like the reverse of BG's 1971 Kennedy and after a short period works its way to looking like the obverse(or worse).
<< <i>Who in thier right mind would even want to "dip" a proof or cameo coin in the first place? if it has been stored properly or slabbed it should not get dirty,or if buying one look at it first if it needs to be dipped then don't buy it ,move on and get a clean one-
It does keep modern silver proofs from milk spotting.
<< <i>Walking past several collectors/dealers at the SLNA made me wonder... if they submit their coins, would the sniffer roll over dead? Some of them really, Really, REALLY stunk!
Is there a bodybag code for terrible hygiene?