Maybe EBay just doesn't want to run the risk of being caught in the middle just in case they ever pop up as the real thing? Who knows...it's their website to do with as they please.
Me personally, I thought they were a cool collectible, but never thought of them as legal or illegal, just collectible.
I believe I have refrained from commenting about this topic so far. I have no interest in owning anything like this - $675? LOL no way. I could buy something "real" (a term that seems to be mutating) that is actually interesting to me. Maybe something raw where I could actually not feel manipulated at all and my grading skills would be really flexed. Whatever. Anyway, if I did something analogous in the areas I work I'd have been sued. Last year a large institution tried to trick me - took some of my work and altered it and published it in a very prominent place in a way not contracted. I went after them and it took a lot of effort but I was paid for the uncredited use and manipulation of my design work (it was the transfer of rights to alter my work to another designer and publisher which was never given - that's how I got them). My question is - what about the 'copyright" of the design of real Peace dollars? Is there any right to this design... the designers family etc? The Mint? Sorry if this has been asked - I imagine I missed it in all those threads that were large and some that came and went if memory serves.
Best, Eric
Edited for spelling. And to add if someone gave me one I'd (further) deface it and sell it for melt. And to say I am not looking to start some huge thread or argument.
And your position on the JS Boggs banknotes that he used as cash to buy thing even though they were hand done? BTW, these from the start have fetched big money as they come up (the notes)...
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i> Who are the rats reporting these LEGAL items? Attention to the sellers of these...Ebay will generally release the identity of who reported your listing if your lawyer sends them a request, and MUST do so if requested under a formal discovery procedure (Request for the Production of Documents or Thing) >>
They can be found right here on this forum.
Advanced collector of BREWERIANA. Early beer advertising (beer cans, tap knobs, foam scrapers, trays, tin signs, lithos, paper, etc)....My first love...U.S. COINS!
Boggs notes, I think, are incomplete and not nearly as believable as this Carr item. To me it does not look real and I know when they were minted - but should one get into "circulation"...to a "normal" person they could easily appear as just another silver dollar. Uh...anyway - the drawings are not used as cash - I think he is letting people decide if they want to take his drawing or not as part of some larger statement, performance or comment. I was asking about the issue of the genuine de Francisci Peace design and who owns the right to allow its alteration etc., if anyone.
I've reported several, and I don't care who knows I did.
These are the most ugliest, gaudiest looking things ever, and should be marked as NOT AUTHENTIC. >>
The simple word "COPY" would have avoided all this contention. Mr. Carr chose not to use it. TD
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
I've reported several, and I don't care who knows I did.
These are the most ugliest, gaudiest looking things ever, and should be marked as NOT AUTHENTIC. >>
The simple word "COPY" would have avoided all this contention. Mr. Carr chose not to use it. TD >>
I would agree with you except for one thing:
These are not copies as there are no originals that are known to exist. These are genuine Peace Dollars that have been altered from their original state, both the date as well as the finish on them has been altered.
But you are correct these should be marked so potential buyers are aware these are not a REAL 1964D Peace Dollar.
<< <i>Who are the rats reporting these LEGAL items? >>
I've reported several, and I don't care who knows I did. These are the most ugliest, gaudiest looking things ever, and should be marked as NOT AUTHENTIC. >>
Is it proper forum etiquette to post that I love you?
Boggs notes, I think, are incomplete and not nearly as believable as this Carr item. To me it does not look real and I know when they were minted - but should one get into "circulation"...to a "normal" person they could easily appear as just another silver dollar. Uh...anyway - the drawings are not used as cash - I think he is letting people decide if they want to take his drawing or not as part of some larger statement, performance or comment. I was asking about the issue of the genuine de Francisci Peace design and who owns the right to allow its alteration etc., if anyone.
Best wishes, Eric >>
If what you're asking is, are the designs created by U.S. Mint sculptors for use on U.S. Mint coinage, copyrighted; then the answer is no they are not.
Evidence they are not and can be used by anyone, the gold plated Buffaloes selling for $19.95 on t.v., which feature the design created by U.S. Mint sculptor James Earle Fraser for the Buffalo nickel.
I think the comment about eBay worried about the HPA is funny. How long would it take them to prove the Chinese counterfeiters are not complying with the HPA? These guys are doing more damage to our hobby than Dan ever will. If people are worried about the guys hiding real 64 D Peace dollars, get them to bring them out and fight the fight or give it a rest. IMHO.
<< <i>Maybe they removed them cause they aren't real coins? >>
They *are* real coins, more or less. But they were overstruck with an altered date. Whether or not those are against eBay policy, I can't really say for sure. They are authentic but altered unless one makes the claim that an overstriking of an authentic coin makes it no longer considered an authentic Mint issue; I'll leave that one for the lawyers.
I've reported several, and I don't care who knows I did.
These are the most ugliest, gaudiest looking things ever, and should be marked as NOT AUTHENTIC. >>
The simple word "COPY" would have avoided all this contention. Mr. Carr chose not to use it. TD >>
So true. Why is this so hard to understand TD? >>
I understand what I said very well. Which part of it do you not understand?
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
<< <i>I think the comment about eBay worried about the HPA is funny. How long would it take them to prove the Chinese counterfeiters are not complying with the HPA? These guys are doing more damage to our hobby than Dan ever will. If people are worried about the guys hiding real 64 D Peace dollars, get them to bring them out and fight the fight or give it a rest. IMHO. >>
I hope the Carr peace dollar haters are going after the sellers of Chinese counterfeit coins with as much gusto. Unlike the individuals trying to make an honest profit selling Carr peace dollars, the sellers of true counterfeit coins are robbing buyers and damaging our hobby/business.
Maybe the detractors should show the same restraint as the government or Secret Service until these are proven to be illegal in this form. But these people seem more intent in being judge and jury, not willing to wait for any legal ruling, if one will even be forthcoming.
<< <i>Maybe the detractors should show the same restraint as the government or Secret Service until these are proven to be illegal in this form. But these people seem more intent in being judge and jury, not willing to wait for any legal ruling, if one will even be forthcoming. >>
So the producer and his paying customers are what ? Omnicient as it regards the whims of Big Brother?
<< <i>I hope the Carr peace dollar haters are going after the sellers of Chinese counterfeit coins with as much gusto >>
"Hater" is a loaded term. I don't hate these things; I think they're kinda cool, but they are (IMO) legally borderline at best, and I believe these should be treated both by eBay and the TPGs as just another authentic coin with post-Mint alterations and an altered date, since that's what it is. I don't understand the call to legitimize these in PCGS holders, for example, since no one would suggest that a 1944-D cent altered to read 1914-D should be slabbed -- that, too, is an altered date which is changed to a specific date collectors want to own. That the 1964-D Peace Dollar was never released (and the 1914-D cent was) only slightly changes the comparison, IMO -- maybe the letter of it, but not the spirit of it. It's still an authentic coin with an altered date and I feel like the "anti-haters" are trying to treat it like something more special than that which deserves to be granted exceptions to the rules against altered coins.
<< <i>I hope the Carr peace dollar haters are going after the sellers of Chinese counterfeit coins with as much gusto >>
"Hater" is a loaded term. I don't hate these things; I think they're kinda cool, but they are (IMO) legally borderline at best, and I believe these should be treated both by eBay and the TPGs as just another authentic coin with post-Mint alterations and an altered date, since that's what it is. I don't understand the call to legitimize these in PCGS holders, for example, since no one would suggest that a 1944-D cent altered to read 1914-D should be slabbed -- that, too, is an altered date which is changed to a specific date collectors want to own. That the 1964-D Peace Dollar was never released (and the 1914-D cent was) only slightly changes the comparison, IMO -- maybe the letter of it, but not the spirit of it. It's still an authentic coin with an altered date and I feel like the "anti-haters" are trying to treat it like something more special than that which deserves to be granted exceptions to the rules against altered coins. >>
I agree with you. Even though PCGS does slab certain questionable material, I don't believe that the Carr dollars should graded or slabbed.
The one thing that Daniel Carr has unarguably accomplished by producing these 1964-D Peace dollars, is to create a divide in the coin collecting community.
If you read any coin magazine, forum, etc., you will see that those that purchased Carr's items support the 1964-D Peace dollars... and those that collect coins, don't support the 1964-D Peace dollars. If you're a speculator, you buy the 1964-D Peace dollars... if you're a collector, you don't buy the 1964-D Peace dollars. I would suspect there are less than 500 supporters of the 1964-D Peace dollars (and that's probably being very, very generous) and a LOT more that don't support the 1964-D Peace dollars.
If you look at Carr's website, most of his coins are political statements, which is fine, but I think he crossed the line when he created the 1964-D Peace dollars. Are these coins really worth the obvious divide amongst our peers... the damage to our hobby?
I don't care one way or the other about the 1964-D Peace dollars... but when it dominates my children's hobby (the future buyers of our coins) it becomes a cause-and-effect issue that needs to be resolved. When my children learn that it's okay to possibly break the law if you can make money... then do it. That second-parties speculate with coins to make money... then do it. That this hobby is more about making money than the enjoyment we remember from our youth... the only thing that matters is if you make money. We've lost sight of this hobby... are we collectors or speculators?
Who are the tattle tails protecting? The buyer? You don't think the buyer is wise enough or savvy enough to know exactly what it is they are purchasing? Unlike the fake PCGS 1894 silver dollar brought up in another thread, collectors of Daniel Carr's creations know exactly what these items are and exactly what these items are not.
So, eBay police: Who are you protecting? Or, as I theorize, is it personal? You don't like the idea of these coins so you're going out of your way to make sure others can't enjoy them too. Your act is not one of selflessness but rather your own bitter opinion of what it is others should collect and what it is they shouldn't.
<< <i>The one thing that Daniel Carr has unarguably accomplished by producing these 1964-D Peace dollars, is to create a divide in the coin collecting community.
If you read any coin magazine, forum, etc., you will see that those that purchased Carr's items support the 1964-D Peace dollars... and those that collect coins, don't support the 1964-D Peace dollars. If you're a speculator, you buy the 1964-D Peace dollars... if you're a collector, you don't buy the 1964-D Peace dollars. I would suspect there are less than 500 supporters of the 1964-D Peace dollars (and that's probably being very, very generous) and a LOT more that don't support the 1964-D Peace dollars.
If you look at Carr's website, most of his coins are political statements, which is fine, but I think he crossed the line when he created the 1964-D Peace dollars. Are these coins really worth the obvious divide amongst our peers... the damage to our hobby?
I don't care one way or the other about the 1964-D Peace dollars... but when it dominates my children's hobby (the future buyers of our coins) it becomes a cause-and-effect issue that needs to be resolved. When my children learn that it's okay to possibly break the law if you can make money... then do it. That second-parties speculate with coins to make money... then do it. That this hobby is more about making money than the enjoyment we remember from our youth... the only thing that matters is if you make money. We've lost sight of this hobby... are we collectors or speculators?
...but that's just my opinion >>
And i'd suggest your opinion is spot on , it wasn't coin collectors buying these it was speculaters , hence the multiple threads complaining of ebays policies when it comes to selling.
<< <i>Your act is not one of selflessness but rather your own bitter opinion of what it is others should collect and what it is they shouldn't. >>
And you are insinuating that others are being judgmental and bitter? Pot, meet kettle. This is among the most bitter opinions I've seen voiced here. Physician, heal thyself...
I have no real horse in this race other than I don't think these should be slabbed or treated like unaltered coins. I think these are legally borderline and I can see why there are people who feel that they are legitimate and why there are those who feel these are inappropriate. But I personally am finding those *defending* the Carr pieces to be a lot more bitter, insulting and demeaning in these threads -- by a VERY wide margin. Those arguing against the legitimacy of these pieces are generally arguing against the legality and ethics of the coins. Those defending these pieces (and opposing the detractors) are the ones making this bitterly personal and hating on PEOPLE, not just the coins. Your post is Exhibit A for the prosecution, so to speak.
<< <i>Your act is not one of selflessness but rather your own bitter opinion of what it is others should collect and what it is they shouldn't. >>
And you are insinuating that others are being judgmental and bitter? Pot, meet kettle. This is among the most bitter opinions I've seen voiced here. Physician, heal thyself...
I have no real horse in this race other than I don't think these should be slabbed or treated like unaltered coins. I think these are legally borderline and I can see why there are people who feel that they are legitimate and why there are those who feel these are inappropriate. But I personally am finding those *defending* the Carr pieces to be a lot more bitter, insulting and demeaning in these threads -- by a VERY wide margin. Those arguing against the legitimacy of these pieces are generally arguing against the legality and ethics of the coins. Those defending these pieces (and opposing the detractors) are the ones making this bitterly personal and hating on PEOPLE, not just the coins. Your post is Exhibit A for the prosecution, so to speak. >>
"And you are insinuating that others are being judgmental and bitter? Pot, meet kettle. This is among the most bitter opinions I've seen voiced here. Physician, heal thyself..."
There are those that are hunched over their keyboards right now tap tap taping away, diming out auctions that list these Daniel Carr creations in their attempt to feel better about themselves by having these auctions banned.
I don't care what you ziggy29 collect in the sense that I'd want to put a stop to it. I'd either find your personal tastes interesting or not but I wouldn't take the effort to stop you from doing what it is you do. Joy in collecting comes in various forms. Collectors here gather everything from old gold to modern clad coins. From medals to holed coins. Even sample slabs! Now, for those that have an interest in these 1964 created silver dollars, God bless 'em.
It is those that aggressively hinder others from their collecting endeavors I loath. Not bitter about it, but rather dislike. I asked above what their motive and agenda is in stopping collectors from purchasing these peace dollars.
I don't believe there is any one agenda , if the buyers of these had bought them and placed them in albums it would have soon been a thing forgotten.Instead the buyers treated the forum to multiple threads and countless pictures of something that may or may not belong on a US Coin forum , the PM forum being a more likely spot for most of the creations or fantasy bullion we've seen.
To sum up i'd suggest the continual thread creating and picture posting while laughing to the bank backfired on those posting , it's not rocket science to figure out that in the main it's something the pro-64 fans brought on themselves.
<< <i>"And you are insinuating that others are being judgmental and bitter? Pot, meet kettle. This is among the most bitter opinions I've seen voiced here. Physician, heal thyself..."
There are those that are hunched over their keyboards right now tap tap taping away, diming out auctions that list these Daniel Carr creations in their attempt to feel better about themselves by having these auctions banned.
I don't care what you ziggy29 collect in the sense that I'd want to put a stop to it. I'd either find your personal tastes interesting or not but I wouldn't take the effort to stop you from doing what it is you do. Joy in collecting comes in various forms. Collectors here gather everything from old gold to modern clad coins. From medals to holed coins. Even sample slabs! Now, for those that have an interest in these 1964 created silver dollars, God bless 'em.
It is those that aggressively hinder others from their collecting endeavors I loath. Not bitter about it, but rather dislike. I asked above what their motive and agenda is in stopping collectors from purchasing these peace dollars.
Do you know? >>
What are you arguing? If the 1964-D Peace dollars are listed in the Fantasy Coin category, they won't be removed. If they're listed in the Peace dollar category, they'll be removed. These aren't Peace dollars. If someone reported a Chinese 1964-D Peace dollar listed under the Peace dollar category... would you be so vocal about them asking eBay to remove the Chinese coin?
Yes, I would have a problem with a Chinese counterfeit being listed in the Peace dollar category. I'd also have an equal problem with the coin being listed in the Fantasy category.
Sadly, I'm in charge of the beer for our Super Bowl party and if I don't get it on ice in the next few minutes will have a group of people, even scarier than those who argue against the 1964 peace dollar, drinking warm beer and giving me the stink eye.
<< <i>Yes, I would have a problem with a Chinese counterfeit being listed in the Peace dollar category. I'd also have an equal problem with the coin being listed in the Fantasy category.
Sadly, I'm in charge of the beer for our Super Bowl party and if I don't get it on ice in the next few minutes will have a group of people, even scarier than those who argue against the 1964 peace dollar, drinking warm beer and giving me the stink eye.
I'm out. >>
How strange , why a problem with a Chinese seller listing under Fantasy ? They at least pretend to stamp copy on them.
<< <i>I think the comment about eBay worried about the HPA is funny. How long would it take them to prove the Chinese counterfeiters are not complying with the HPA? These guys are doing more damage to our hobby than Dan ever will. If people are worried about the guys hiding real 64 D Peace dollars, get them to bring them out and fight the fight or give it a rest. IMHO. >>
I hope the Carr peace dollar haters are going after the sellers of Chinese counterfeit coins with as much gusto. Unlike the individuals trying to make an honest profit selling Carr peace dollars, the sellers of true counterfeit coins are robbing buyers and damaging our hobby/business.
PS: GO STEELERS!!!!! >>
I'm not biased in my reporting items on eBay I think should be removed because of suspected counterfeiting, or license or copyright infringements.
I also flag, for removal, the scams on craigslist.com as well.
<< <i>It is those that aggressively hinder others from their collecting endeavors I loath. >>
If a collector knows what he/she is buying, I don't think our opinions would change his/her collecting interest. We are simply expressing our thoughts about the coin. If you don't like our posts, simply ignore them. If you have a good point about the coin you want to bring up, we would be very interested to hear. Please don't come here and attack those that have a different opinion about the coin.
<< <i>Not bitter about it, but rather dislike. >>
Sorry, maybe you want to reconsider your words, but bitter is what it sounds like
<< <i>I asked above what their motive and agenda is in stopping collectors from purchasing these peace dollars.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>I see one of the matte coins sold for $675 in the replica category recently. >>
That was mine.....Sold in around 6 hours...
Did you have it up as a BIN? or best offer?
Me personally, I thought they were a cool collectible, but never thought of them as legal or illegal, just collectible.
<< <i>Let's see....should I put my matte on eBay or sell it here??
I think you should wait till they hit 4 figures.
Just remember the game musical chairs from when you were a kid.
The web cam was on when RWB's dog "Renaissance" hit the report button.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
I believe I have refrained from commenting about this topic so far. I have no interest in owning anything like this - $675? LOL no way. I could buy something "real" (a term that seems to be mutating) that is actually interesting to me. Maybe something raw where I could actually not feel manipulated at all and my grading skills would be really flexed. Whatever.
Anyway, if I did something analogous in the areas I work I'd have been sued. Last year a large institution tried to trick me - took some of my work and altered it and published it in a very prominent place in a way not contracted. I went after them and it took a lot of effort but I was paid for the uncredited use and manipulation of my design work (it was the transfer of rights to alter my work to another designer and publisher which was never given - that's how I got them). My question is - what about the 'copyright" of the design of real Peace dollars? Is there any right to this design... the designers family etc? The Mint? Sorry if this has been asked - I imagine I missed it in all those threads that were large and some that came and went if memory serves.
Best,
Eric
Edited for spelling. And to add if someone gave me one I'd (further) deface it and sell it for melt. And to say I am not looking to start some huge thread or argument.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>
Who are the rats reporting these LEGAL items? Attention to the sellers of these...Ebay will generally release the identity
of who reported your listing if your lawyer sends them a request, and MUST do so if requested under a formal
discovery procedure (Request for the Production of Documents or Thing) >>
They can be found right here on this forum.
Boggs notes, I think, are incomplete and not nearly as believable as this Carr item. To me it does not look real and I know when they were minted - but should one get into "circulation"...to a "normal"
Best wishes,
Eric
die pair 5, $1000
MS63 $ 700
OK Frankie, heres yer chance. Nice sitting target.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I see one of the matte coins sold for $675 in the replica category recently. >>
That was mine.....Sold in around 6 hours...
Did you have it up as a BIN? or best offer? >>
It was a BIN.
Box of 20
<< <i>
Who are the rats reporting these LEGAL items? >>
I've reported several, and I don't care who knows I did.
These are the most ugliest, gaudiest looking things ever, and should be marked as NOT AUTHENTIC.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Who are the rats reporting these LEGAL items? >>
I've reported several, and I don't care who knows I did.
These are the most ugliest, gaudiest looking things ever, and should be marked as NOT AUTHENTIC. >>
playa hata
<< <i>
<< <i>
Who are the rats reporting these LEGAL items? >>
I've reported several, and I don't care who knows I did.
These are the most ugliest, gaudiest looking things ever, and should be marked as NOT AUTHENTIC. >>
The simple word "COPY" would have avoided all this contention. Mr. Carr chose not to use it.
TD
<< <i>
playa hata >>
Boo hoo!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
Who are the rats reporting these LEGAL items? >>
I've reported several, and I don't care who knows I did.
These are the most ugliest, gaudiest looking things ever, and should be marked as NOT AUTHENTIC. >>
The simple word "COPY" would have avoided all this contention. Mr. Carr chose not to use it.
TD >>
I would agree with you except for one thing:
These are not copies as there are no originals that are known to exist. These are genuine Peace Dollars that have been altered from their original state, both the date as well as the finish on them has been altered.
But you are correct these should be marked so potential buyers are aware these are not a REAL 1964D Peace Dollar.
<< <i>
<< <i>Who are the rats reporting these LEGAL items? >>
I've reported several, and I don't care who knows I did.
These are the most ugliest, gaudiest looking things ever, and should be marked as NOT AUTHENTIC. >>
Is it proper forum etiquette to post that I love you?
<< <i>Hi,
Boggs notes, I think, are incomplete and not nearly as believable as this Carr item. To me it does not look real and I know when they were minted - but should one get into "circulation"...to a "normal"
Best wishes,
Eric >>
If what you're asking is, are the designs created by U.S. Mint sculptors for use on U.S. Mint coinage, copyrighted; then the answer is no they are not.
Evidence they are not and can be used by anyone, the gold plated Buffaloes selling for $19.95 on t.v., which feature the design created by U.S. Mint sculptor James Earle Fraser for the Buffalo nickel.
<< <i>Well, if they're illegal, I already sold mine to Izzy.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Maybe they removed them cause they aren't real coins? >>
They *are* real coins, more or less. But they were overstruck with an altered date. Whether or not those are against eBay policy, I can't really say for sure. They are authentic but altered unless one makes the claim that an overstriking of an authentic coin makes it no longer considered an authentic Mint issue; I'll leave that one for the lawyers.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
Who are the rats reporting these LEGAL items? >>
I've reported several, and I don't care who knows I did.
These are the most ugliest, gaudiest looking things ever, and should be marked as NOT AUTHENTIC. >>
The simple word "COPY" would have avoided all this contention. Mr. Carr chose not to use it.
TD >>
So true.
Why is this so hard to understand TD?
<< <i>
<< <i>
playa hata >>
Boo hoo! >>
Your avatar is emblematic of your psyche.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
Who are the rats reporting these LEGAL items? >>
I've reported several, and I don't care who knows I did.
These are the most ugliest, gaudiest looking things ever, and should be marked as NOT AUTHENTIC. >>
The simple word "COPY" would have avoided all this contention. Mr. Carr chose not to use it.
TD >>
So true.
Why is this so hard to understand TD? >>
I understand what I said very well. Which part of it do you not understand?
<< <i>I think the comment about eBay worried about the HPA is funny. How long would it take them to prove the Chinese counterfeiters are not complying with the HPA? These guys are doing more damage to our hobby than Dan ever will. If people are worried about the guys hiding real 64 D Peace dollars, get them to bring them out and fight the fight or give it a rest. IMHO. >>
I hope the Carr peace dollar haters are going after the sellers of Chinese counterfeit coins with as much gusto. Unlike the individuals trying to make an honest profit selling Carr peace dollars, the sellers of true counterfeit coins are robbing buyers and damaging our hobby/business.
PS: GO STEELERS!!!!!
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
<< <i>Maybe the detractors should show the same restraint as the government or Secret Service until these are proven to be illegal in this form. But these people seem more intent in being judge and jury, not willing to wait for any legal ruling, if one will even be forthcoming. >>
So the producer and his paying customers are what ? Omnicient as it regards the whims of Big Brother?
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>
<< <i>So true.
Why is this so hard to understand TD? >>
I understand what I said very well. Which part of it do you not understand? >>
I read it as he was agreeing with you -- no more, no less.
<< <i>I hope the Carr peace dollar haters are going after the sellers of Chinese counterfeit coins with as much gusto >>
"Hater" is a loaded term. I don't hate these things; I think they're kinda cool, but they are (IMO) legally borderline at best, and I believe these should be treated both by eBay and the TPGs as just another authentic coin with post-Mint alterations and an altered date, since that's what it is. I don't understand the call to legitimize these in PCGS holders, for example, since no one would suggest that a 1944-D cent altered to read 1914-D should be slabbed -- that, too, is an altered date which is changed to a specific date collectors want to own. That the 1964-D Peace Dollar was never released (and the 1914-D cent was) only slightly changes the comparison, IMO -- maybe the letter of it, but not the spirit of it. It's still an authentic coin with an altered date and I feel like the "anti-haters" are trying to treat it like something more special than that which deserves to be granted exceptions to the rules against altered coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>I hope the Carr peace dollar haters are going after the sellers of Chinese counterfeit coins with as much gusto >>
"Hater" is a loaded term. I don't hate these things; I think they're kinda cool, but they are (IMO) legally borderline at best, and I believe these should be treated both by eBay and the TPGs as just another authentic coin with post-Mint alterations and an altered date, since that's what it is. I don't understand the call to legitimize these in PCGS holders, for example, since no one would suggest that a 1944-D cent altered to read 1914-D should be slabbed -- that, too, is an altered date which is changed to a specific date collectors want to own. That the 1964-D Peace Dollar was never released (and the 1914-D cent was) only slightly changes the comparison, IMO -- maybe the letter of it, but not the spirit of it. It's still an authentic coin with an altered date and I feel like the "anti-haters" are trying to treat it like something more special than that which deserves to be granted exceptions to the rules against altered coins. >>
I agree with you. Even though PCGS does slab certain questionable material, I don't believe that the Carr dollars should graded or slabbed.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
If you read any coin magazine, forum, etc., you will see that those that purchased Carr's items support the 1964-D Peace dollars... and those that collect coins, don't support the 1964-D Peace dollars. If you're a speculator, you buy the 1964-D Peace dollars... if you're a collector, you don't buy the 1964-D Peace dollars. I would suspect there are less than 500 supporters of the 1964-D Peace dollars (and that's probably being very, very generous) and a LOT more that don't support the 1964-D Peace dollars.
If you look at Carr's website, most of his coins are political statements, which is fine, but I think he crossed the line when he created the 1964-D Peace dollars. Are these coins really worth the obvious divide amongst our peers... the damage to our hobby?
I don't care one way or the other about the 1964-D Peace dollars... but when it dominates my children's hobby (the future buyers of our coins) it becomes a cause-and-effect issue that needs to be resolved. When my children learn that it's okay to possibly break the law if you can make money... then do it. That second-parties speculate with coins to make money... then do it. That this hobby is more about making money than the enjoyment we remember from our youth... the only thing that matters is if you make money. We've lost sight of this hobby... are we collectors or speculators?
...but that's just my opinion
Unlike the fake PCGS 1894 silver dollar brought up in another thread, collectors of Daniel Carr's creations know exactly what these items are and exactly what these items are not.
So, eBay police: Who are you protecting?
Or, as I theorize, is it personal? You don't like the idea of these coins so you're going out of your way to make sure others can't enjoy them too. Your act is not one of selflessness but rather your own bitter opinion of what it is others should collect and what it is they shouldn't.
<< <i>The one thing that Daniel Carr has unarguably accomplished by producing these 1964-D Peace dollars, is to create a divide in the coin collecting community.
If you read any coin magazine, forum, etc., you will see that those that purchased Carr's items support the 1964-D Peace dollars... and those that collect coins, don't support the 1964-D Peace dollars. If you're a speculator, you buy the 1964-D Peace dollars... if you're a collector, you don't buy the 1964-D Peace dollars. I would suspect there are less than 500 supporters of the 1964-D Peace dollars (and that's probably being very, very generous) and a LOT more that don't support the 1964-D Peace dollars.
If you look at Carr's website, most of his coins are political statements, which is fine, but I think he crossed the line when he created the 1964-D Peace dollars. Are these coins really worth the obvious divide amongst our peers... the damage to our hobby?
I don't care one way or the other about the 1964-D Peace dollars... but when it dominates my children's hobby (the future buyers of our coins) it becomes a cause-and-effect issue that needs to be resolved. When my children learn that it's okay to possibly break the law if you can make money... then do it. That second-parties speculate with coins to make money... then do it. That this hobby is more about making money than the enjoyment we remember from our youth... the only thing that matters is if you make money. We've lost sight of this hobby... are we collectors or speculators?
...but that's just my opinion >>
And i'd suggest your opinion is spot on , it wasn't coin collectors buying these it was speculaters , hence the multiple threads complaining of ebays policies when it comes to selling.
<< <i>Your act is not one of selflessness but rather your own bitter opinion of what it is others should collect and what it is they shouldn't. >>
And you are insinuating that others are being judgmental and bitter? Pot, meet kettle. This is among the most bitter opinions I've seen voiced here. Physician, heal thyself...
I have no real horse in this race other than I don't think these should be slabbed or treated like unaltered coins. I think these are legally borderline and I can see why there are people who feel that they are legitimate and why there are those who feel these are inappropriate. But I personally am finding those *defending* the Carr pieces to be a lot more bitter, insulting and demeaning in these threads -- by a VERY wide margin. Those arguing against the legitimacy of these pieces are generally arguing against the legality and ethics of the coins. Those defending these pieces (and opposing the detractors) are the ones making this bitterly personal and hating on PEOPLE, not just the coins. Your post is Exhibit A for the prosecution, so to speak.
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Who are the rats reporting these LEGAL items? >>
I've reported several, and I don't care who knows I did.
These are the most ugliest, gaudiest looking things ever, and should be marked as NOT AUTHENTIC. >>
The simple word "COPY" would have avoided all this contention. Mr. Carr chose not to use it.
TD >>
So true.
Why is this so hard to understand TD? >>
I understand what I said very well. Which part of it do you not understand? >>
It is very easy to understand
That is why I am agreeing with you.
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<< <i>Your act is not one of selflessness but rather your own bitter opinion of what it is others should collect and what it is they shouldn't. >>
And you are insinuating that others are being judgmental and bitter? Pot, meet kettle. This is among the most bitter opinions I've seen voiced here. Physician, heal thyself...
I have no real horse in this race other than I don't think these should be slabbed or treated like unaltered coins. I think these are legally borderline and I can see why there are people who feel that they are legitimate and why there are those who feel these are inappropriate. But I personally am finding those *defending* the Carr pieces to be a lot more bitter, insulting and demeaning in these threads -- by a VERY wide margin. Those arguing against the legitimacy of these pieces are generally arguing against the legality and ethics of the coins. Those defending these pieces (and opposing the detractors) are the ones making this bitterly personal and hating on PEOPLE, not just the coins. Your post is Exhibit A for the prosecution, so to speak. >>
Very well said ziggy
There are those that are hunched over their keyboards right now tap tap taping away, diming out auctions that list these Daniel Carr creations in their attempt to feel better about themselves by having these auctions banned.
I don't care what you ziggy29 collect in the sense that I'd want to put a stop to it. I'd either find your personal tastes interesting or not but I wouldn't take the effort to stop you from doing what it is you do. Joy in collecting comes in various forms.
Collectors here gather everything from old gold to modern clad coins. From medals to holed coins. Even sample slabs! Now, for those that have an interest in these 1964 created silver dollars, God bless 'em.
It is those that aggressively hinder others from their collecting endeavors I loath. Not bitter about it, but rather dislike.
I asked above what their motive and agenda is in stopping collectors from purchasing these peace dollars.
Do you know?
To sum up i'd suggest the continual thread creating and picture posting while laughing to the bank backfired on those posting , it's not rocket science to figure out that in the main it's something the pro-64 fans brought on themselves.
<< <i>"And you are insinuating that others are being judgmental and bitter? Pot, meet kettle. This is among the most bitter opinions I've seen voiced here. Physician, heal thyself..."
There are those that are hunched over their keyboards right now tap tap taping away, diming out auctions that list these Daniel Carr creations in their attempt to feel better about themselves by having these auctions banned.
I don't care what you ziggy29 collect in the sense that I'd want to put a stop to it. I'd either find your personal tastes interesting or not but I wouldn't take the effort to stop you from doing what it is you do. Joy in collecting comes in various forms.
Collectors here gather everything from old gold to modern clad coins. From medals to holed coins. Even sample slabs! Now, for those that have an interest in these 1964 created silver dollars, God bless 'em.
It is those that aggressively hinder others from their collecting endeavors I loath. Not bitter about it, but rather dislike.
I asked above what their motive and agenda is in stopping collectors from purchasing these peace dollars.
Do you know? >>
What are you arguing? If the 1964-D Peace dollars are listed in the Fantasy Coin category, they won't be removed. If they're listed in the Peace dollar category, they'll be removed. These aren't Peace dollars. If someone reported a Chinese 1964-D Peace dollar listed under the Peace dollar category... would you be so vocal about them asking eBay to remove the Chinese coin?
Sadly, I'm in charge of the beer for our Super Bowl party and if I don't get it on ice in the next few minutes will have a group of people, even scarier than those who argue against the 1964 peace dollar, drinking warm beer and giving me the stink eye.
I'm out.
<< <i>Yes, I would have a problem with a Chinese counterfeit being listed in the Peace dollar category. I'd also have an equal problem with the coin being listed in the Fantasy category.
Sadly, I'm in charge of the beer for our Super Bowl party and if I don't get it on ice in the next few minutes will have a group of people, even scarier than those who argue against the 1964 peace dollar, drinking warm beer and giving me the stink eye.
I'm out. >>
How strange , why a problem with a Chinese seller listing under Fantasy ? They at least pretend to stamp copy on them.
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<< <i>That was mine.....Sold in around 6 hours...
Did you have it up as a BIN? or best offer? >>
It was a BIN. >>
You get the "Flipper Award" !
Whatever you are, be a good one. ---- Abraham Lincoln
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<< <i>I think the comment about eBay worried about the HPA is funny. How long would it take them to prove the Chinese counterfeiters are not complying with the HPA? These guys are doing more damage to our hobby than Dan ever will. If people are worried about the guys hiding real 64 D Peace dollars, get them to bring them out and fight the fight or give it a rest. IMHO. >>
I hope the Carr peace dollar haters are going after the sellers of Chinese counterfeit coins with as much gusto. Unlike the individuals trying to make an honest profit selling Carr peace dollars, the sellers of true counterfeit coins are robbing buyers and damaging our hobby/business.
PS: GO STEELERS!!!!! >>
I'm not biased in my reporting items on eBay I think should be removed because of suspected counterfeiting, or license or copyright infringements.
I also flag, for removal, the scams on craigslist.com as well.
<< <i>It is those that aggressively hinder others from their collecting endeavors I loath. >>
If a collector knows what he/she is buying, I don't think our opinions would change his/her collecting interest. We are simply expressing our thoughts about the coin. If you don't like our posts, simply ignore them. If you have a good point about the coin you want to bring up, we would be very interested to hear. Please don't come here and attack those that have a different opinion about the coin.
<< <i>Not bitter about it, but rather dislike. >>
Sorry, maybe you want to reconsider your words, but bitter is what it sounds like
<< <i>I asked above what their motive and agenda is in stopping collectors from purchasing these peace dollars.
Do you know? >>
Simple: we only want it done right.
<< <i>Bought for $150. Sold for $300. Out & Done.
Ah, yes... the bottom line. Methinks this is the main reason for this object's attraction.