There are posts of eloquence and compassion and there are posts that call to mind that it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to post and remove all doubt.
Of course. We'll never know the extent to which financial pressure, shame, depression and who knows what else led Cameron to his final decision. But the bottom line is that this is a tragedy long in the making, and pointing to a forum thread as the cause is just plain silly.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>There are posts of eloquence and compassion and there are posts that call to mind that it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to post and remove all doubt.
<< <i>The idea that a chatroom drove someone to suicide is nonsensical. The man obviously had deep deep issues that went far beyond this place in order to leave a wife and two young children fending for themselves. I tend to agree with Ken, with perhaps a tinge more of regret that he didn't seek out and receive the help needed to get him through this in a different way >>
Very well said and I completely agree. We should remember his wife and kids at this time and the terrible circumstances that have been forced upon them.
Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
Believe me, I am not a "religious" person, and for the most part I think that life is what you make of it. I did however, hear this years ago and I try to keep it in mind. "There but for the grace of God go I."
That is the very reason that this Forum bans such threads. When people pile on
in a negative way, it is sometimes more public humiliation then a person can bear.
In the future, let us remember that words can be as sharp a weapon as the blade
of a knife.Always attempt to use words carefully, tactfully and with moderation. I can
not say that the harsh words written on this Forum in any way caused this tragedy, however
I can not say that it did not act as the straw that broke the camels back.
"Be slow to anger and quick to forgive"
Bear thank you for posting this. None of us will know what contribution any comments here may have had and I have been thinking of something similar for over a day now but you have expressed my feelings as well as I can.
While policing is a worthwhile purpose on this Forum, let's remember the main purpose of these boards is to discuss coins.
With this tragical incident dozens upon dozens of emotional responses are felt by all of us. It would be my fervent wish this Christmas Eve we learn something going forward. To be considerate and respectful when we post and even when we disagree, to not attack but discourse in a civilized and respectful manner. That's the lesson I hope we can incorporate in our posts.
Especially during this season let's reflect on our compassion for each other. Thanks again Bear.
Edited to add to hopefully give Bear a smile:
You get a lot more bees with honey then you do with vinegar!
I did not read every reply in Camerons' threads leading up to all this, but I will say that based on some replies in my thread about my problems on ebay that there are some very careless people on this forum. Some people began speaking as if jail was immenent and no other solution would exist. Someone without experiences in these matters who could have believed this may have been driven to the breaking point out of fear.
<< <i>We are like vultures. We sit from our lofty perches, a keen eyed poised below, searching for a weakened victim to enter the valley. One by one we begin to unfurl our wings to swoop down, gliding effortlessly in the direction of the quarry.
As we descend some screech louder than others, some slip silently through the thermals barely being noticed if at all. Still they come, from all directions, some not even from this flock arrive to swoop down to see what tidbit can be had.
The sense that easy prey has entered the realm spreads like wild fire through out the community. Our beaks are curved for ripping, our talons are sharp for gripping.
Others circle above, looking down, looking for any signs of life. They screech out, “Call off the attack” but we are hungry, we are always hungry, waiting, conserving our energy for the next bold attack. We are like Vultures. >>
I never knew Cameron personally. My few dealings with him were relegated to the BST; one was a buy from him and another he bought from me. Having been active here since 2001, I remember the days when Cameron was best known for his "policing' of the boards.
I was inactive on the boards for several years and therefore, I do not know the events leading up to the more recent events. I find it hard to think that words written here would have led to his actions. I do know, however, that there are those here, and have been here since the beginning, that are like the "vultures" mentioned in an earlier post. Something about the disassociative nature of a message board seems to bring out the worst in some people and that worst tends to be a "pack" attitude. For whatever reason, people sense a weak spot and attack and then others join in the frnzy, trying to get their little bite.
I feel bad for Cameron, as I have some sense of the desparation he must have been feeling to set things right. I also feel for his family that he left behind. I also feel that there are many members here who knew him more personally than I, who would have helped him if they had known.
The ones left holding anemptyh bag due to the recent events should receive some sort of recompense, but that is between them and CK's family/estate.
This situation with Cam causes me much sadness in my heart. A good kid gone bad? Or a good kid that got confused? .... While I do not think the forum postings caused his demise, I do think that it was probably one of the straws that broke the camel's back, per se`.
I have seen personally, over the years the way that some of the board members act like a gang of 'thugs' against anyone who disagrees with them. I have seen this many, many times -- and a close friend of mine personally experienced the 'wrath of the CU forum gang'. My friend did not, and would not harm themself because of it, BUT it did cause them much severe depression for quite a long time. It affected them and their daily life. They have now since gotten over it - but will never forget it, but it is a shame that internet bullying like that occurs on this forum - one that should show more class. It just shows the true personalities of the posters who bully. If you deny that this happens on this forum, then either you are new, lying to yourself - or to others, or you are one of them. And yes, I agree with previous poster ... You/they know who they are! They should be ashamed.
If someone was monetarily 'ripped off', then that should be handled legally. There are NOT just 2 sides to every story -- there are often more than that.
I also agree the true victims in the Cam tragedy are his family, especially his children. I would like to see all of the auction funds go directly to them ONLY, as in a trust fund.
I do not know Cam personally, but as others - knew him from the forums, from many years back .... none of us know the whole story. None of us know what pressures or marital problems he may or may not have had -- and therefore I feel the money should go to the children. That's just my opinion --- Whip me in public setting if you wish --- It won't be the first time it's been done.
I think everyone should agree to disagree - if they do. I also think that talking about this situation is important. Details should be known. BUT, I think that it 'should wait'..... Wait an appropriate amount of time after his demise, burial, and etc. out of respect to the children and parents/family. Then later, you can all talk about it. I am not saying, just suggesting that would be appropriate and KIND.
A lot of people (the thug gang) are NOT KIND people. They are rude dogs ... I can see how Cam was hurt. I know personally of how the forum thugs act when they are in that gang mode.
let the public whipping begin. I may or may not post again in relation to this subject, but did want to speak my mind. Hopefully this situation will change a few people's 'tudes' around here ... but I doubt it.
God be with his children and family at this time of severe grieving. This is not something they will EVER, EVER in their lives, get over. Ever.
Please try to remain kind to others, and I pray that God give me the strength to also do the same.
Having personally lost 3 young men/family members in the past 4 yrs, I know the deep, deep struggles that occur in the healing process. It's such a waste. And it is so heartbreaking for the family.
We have all seen, at various times, people who claim to be the victim of a bad coin deal who airs HIS SIDE of all the dirty laundy in public, and people pile on, shaming and humiliating the person, posting home and business addresses, phone numbers, confidential details of the transaction, threats of jail and even physical harm. It's shameful, and this may be the proverbial last straw that ends these message boards.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
I am really shocked and saddened to learn about Cameron's passing. I didn't know him personally, but I did have coin dealings with him and talked to him on the phone. He did offer to sell and I agreed to buy a coin (UHR) he could not deliver, but he did refund my money plus some extra. I thought at the time he might be in financial trouble because his first refund was by personal check which his bank returned because of insufficient funds. However, he called to let me know that the check was being returned before it was back charged to my account. He apologized profusely and said he would make it up to me by sending some extra with his refund. He then sent cash by Fed Ex along with a circulated Morgan and two proof Franklin half dollars. I really thought he was an honest man that had a temporary financial problem.
My deepest sympathies are with his young family. I know first hand how a father's suicide can effect young children for their whole life.
Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
<< <i>We have all seen, at various times, people who claim to be the victim of a bad coin deal who airs HIS SIDE of all the dirty laundy in public, and people pile on, shaming and humiliating the person, posting home and business addresses, phone numbers, confidential details of the transaction, threats of jail and even physical harm. It's shameful, and this may be the proverbial last straw that ends these message boards. >>
Not sure what instances you're talking about, but I did not see any of the things you are referring to in the now-deleted threads concerning Cameron's business dealings.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
I didn't know the guy but his survival instinct was clearly less then his self-pity/pain tolerance. This forum of banter is no more responsible for his actions then his actions will end up defining the forum. Just like on a battle field, life & stress is a numbers game and 5 out of a 1000 will take the quick way out. It just is shocking to somebody when they share a tent with one of the 5. Nothing here is unprecedented as not every man who digs a hole will climb out I just feel sorry for the kids as they had no choices it the whole ordeal , just my arm chair psychologist 2c.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Upon reading a lot of these responses, I weep for the future. And I am not simply referring to the message boards themselves.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Given the title of this thread, and the always good-natured author credited for creating the thread, I can't believe anyone is actually taking an issue with this.
Next we can argue about this one: "treat others the way you want to be treated."
<< <i>Upon reading a lot of these responses, I weep for the future. And I am not simply referring to the message boards themselves. >>
Longacre: The shortest post you have ever made - yet, perhaps the most meaningful and prophetic.
Larry L.
>>
I'm glad you know what he's talking about, all I can figure is that he's taking a side without saying what side he's on.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>Upon reading a lot of these responses, I weep for the future. And I am not simply referring to the message boards themselves. >>
Longacre: The shortest post you have ever made - yet, perhaps the most meaningful and prophetic.
Larry L.
>>
I think that is a little bit of an overstatement of the significance of just about anything said on these boards let alone one generic blanket judgment. The brevity of his statements has no deeper meaning then his usual (& welcome) superfluously written statements.
Comments
Condolences to the family of CK.
Of course. We'll never know the extent to which financial pressure, shame, depression and who knows what else led Cameron to his final decision. But the bottom line is that this is a tragedy long in the making, and pointing to a forum thread as the cause is just plain silly.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>if people are trying to get the forum closed down for good, you're doing a great job so far. >>
True dat, but then again reality and human nature are often unpleasant so why try to hide it?
<< <i>There are posts of eloquence and compassion and there are posts that call to mind that it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to post and remove all doubt.
Condolences to the family of CK. >>
One can only imagine what the PMs must say.
<< <i>The idea that a chatroom drove someone to suicide is nonsensical. The man obviously had deep deep issues that went far beyond this place in order to leave a wife and two young children fending for themselves. I tend to agree with Ken, with perhaps a tinge more of regret that he didn't seek out and receive the help needed to get him through this in a different way >>
Very well said and I completely agree. We should remember his wife and kids at this time and the terrible circumstances that have been forced upon them.
<< <i>I never had any problem with Doops. >>
How about Dupes? Not the extra kind either.
You know who you are!!!
BST Transactions: DonnyJf, MrOrganic, Justanothercoinaddict, Fivecents, Slq, Jdimmick,
Robb, Tee135, Ibzman350, Mercfan, Outhaul, Erickso1, Cugamongacoins, Indiananationals, Wayne Herndon
Negative BST Transactions:
in a negative way, it is sometimes more public humiliation then a person can bear.
In the future, let us remember that words can be as sharp a weapon as the blade
of a knife.Always attempt to use words carefully, tactfully and with moderation. I can
not say that the harsh words written on this Forum in any way caused this tragedy, however
I can not say that it did not act as the straw that broke the camels back.
"Be slow to anger and quick to forgive"
Bear thank you for posting this. None of us will know what contribution any comments here may have had and I have been thinking of something similar for over a day now but you have expressed my feelings as well as I can.
While policing is a worthwhile purpose on this Forum, let's remember the main purpose of these boards is to discuss coins.
With this tragical incident dozens upon dozens of emotional responses are felt by all of us. It would be my fervent wish this Christmas Eve we learn something going forward. To be considerate and respectful when we post and even when we disagree, to not attack but discourse in a civilized and respectful manner. That's the lesson I hope we can incorporate in our posts.
Especially during this season let's reflect on our compassion for each other. Thanks again Bear.
Edited to add to hopefully give Bear a smile:
You get a lot more bees with honey then you do with vinegar!
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
<< <i>We are like vultures. We sit from our lofty perches, a keen eyed poised below,
searching for a weakened victim to enter the valley. One by one we begin to
unfurl our wings to swoop down, gliding effortlessly in the direction of the quarry.
As we descend some screech louder than others, some slip silently through the
thermals barely being noticed if at all. Still they come, from all directions, some
not even from this flock arrive to swoop down to see what tidbit can be had.
The sense that easy prey has entered the realm spreads like wild fire through out
the community. Our beaks are curved for ripping, our talons are sharp for gripping.
Others circle above, looking down, looking for any signs of life. They screech out,
“Call off the attack” but we are hungry, we are always hungry, waiting, conserving
our energy for the next bold attack. We are like Vultures. >>
I read that somewhere before....
BST Transactions: DonnyJf, MrOrganic, Justanothercoinaddict, Fivecents, Slq, Jdimmick,
Robb, Tee135, Ibzman350, Mercfan, Outhaul, Erickso1, Cugamongacoins, Indiananationals, Wayne Herndon
Negative BST Transactions:
I was inactive on the boards for several years and therefore, I do not know the events leading up to the more recent events. I find it hard to think that words written here would have led to his actions. I do know, however, that there are those here, and have been here since the beginning, that are like the "vultures" mentioned in an earlier post. Something about the disassociative nature of a message board seems to bring out the worst in some people and that worst tends to be a "pack" attitude. For whatever reason, people sense a weak spot and attack and then others join in the frnzy, trying to get their little bite.
I feel bad for Cameron, as I have some sense of the desparation he must have been feeling to set things right. I also feel for his family that he left behind. I also feel that there are many members here who knew him more personally than I, who would have helped him if they had known.
The ones left holding anemptyh bag due to the recent events should receive some sort of recompense, but that is between them and CK's family/estate.
My condolences go out to his family.
I have seen personally, over the years the way that some of the board members act like a gang of 'thugs' against anyone who disagrees with them. I have seen this many, many times -- and a close friend of mine personally experienced the 'wrath of the CU forum gang'. My friend did not, and would not harm themself because of it, BUT it did cause them much severe depression for quite a long time. It affected them and their daily life. They have now since gotten over it - but will never forget it, but it is a shame that internet bullying like that occurs on this forum - one that should show more class. It just shows the true personalities of the posters who bully. If you deny that this happens on this forum, then either you are new, lying to yourself - or to others, or you are one of them. And yes, I agree with previous poster ... You/they know who they are! They should be ashamed.
If someone was monetarily 'ripped off', then that should be handled legally. There are NOT just 2 sides to every story -- there are often more than that.
I also agree the true victims in the Cam tragedy are his family, especially his children. I would like to see all of the auction funds go directly to them ONLY, as in a trust fund.
I do not know Cam personally, but as others - knew him from the forums, from many years back .... none of us know the whole story. None of us know what pressures or marital problems he may or may not have had -- and therefore I feel the money should go to the children. That's just my opinion --- Whip me in public setting if you wish --- It won't be the first time it's been done.
I think everyone should agree to disagree - if they do. I also think that talking about this situation is important. Details should be known. BUT, I think that it 'should wait'..... Wait an appropriate amount of time after his demise, burial, and etc. out of respect to the children and parents/family. Then later, you can all talk about it. I am not saying, just suggesting that would be appropriate and KIND.
A lot of people (the thug gang) are NOT KIND people. They are rude dogs ... I can see how Cam was hurt. I know personally of how the forum thugs act when they are in that gang mode.
let the public whipping begin. I may or may not post again in relation to this subject, but did want to speak my mind. Hopefully this situation will change a few people's 'tudes' around here ... but I doubt it.
God be with his children and family at this time of severe grieving. This is not something they will EVER, EVER in their lives, get over. Ever.
Please try to remain kind to others, and I pray that God give me the strength to also do the same.
Having personally lost 3 young men/family members in the past 4 yrs, I know the deep, deep struggles that occur in the healing process. It's such a waste. And it is so heartbreaking for the family.
Respect ... an important word.
My deepest sympathies are with his young family. I know first hand how a father's suicide can effect young children for their whole life.
<< <i>
<< <i>That is the very reason that this Forum bans such threads. When people pile on
in a negative way, it is sometimes more public humiliation then a person can bear.
In the future, let us remember that words can be as sharp a weapon as the blade
of a knife.Always attempt to use words carefully, tactfully and with moderation. I can
not say that the harsh words written on this Forum in any way caused this tragedy, however
I can not say that it did not act as the straw that broke the camels back.
"Be slow to anger and quick to forgive" >>
Hey Bear, did you ever settle with Doops?
It's difficult to imagine that the devil is wasting his time punishing doops over my $25??
But it's possible....oh my.....I better add him to my prayer list...........
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>We have all seen, at various times, people who claim to be the victim of a bad coin deal who airs HIS SIDE of all the dirty laundy in public, and people pile on, shaming and humiliating the person, posting home and business addresses, phone numbers, confidential details of the transaction, threats of jail and even physical harm. It's shameful, and this may be the proverbial last straw that ends these message boards. >>
Not sure what instances you're talking about, but I did not see any of the things you are referring to in the now-deleted threads concerning Cameron's business dealings.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>BNB was right when he said PCGS was at fault they have no control over there boards and lead to his death >>
You sir are a complete idiot.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>"Quality First" >>
"Quarrelty First" is more like it!
<< <i>BNB was right when he said PCGS was at fault they have no control over there boards and lead to his death >>
BNB was never right.
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Upon reading a lot of these responses, I weep for the future. And I am not simply referring to the message boards themselves. >>
Longacre: The shortest post you have ever made - yet, perhaps the most meaningful and prophetic.
Larry L.
there's a great bell curve of human behaviour, and we're witnessing it's manifestation before our very eyes.
every individual chooses their own actions, and determines where they are operating
and where their cumulative efforts and actions put them along the spectrum
suggest you reread your posts and think about
what they say about
who you are
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Next we can argue about this one: "treat others the way you want to be treated."
<< <i>
<< <i>Upon reading a lot of these responses, I weep for the future. And I am not simply referring to the message boards themselves. >>
Longacre: The shortest post you have ever made - yet, perhaps the most meaningful and prophetic.
Larry L.
>>
I'm glad you know what he's talking about, all I can figure is that he's taking a side without saying what side he's on.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>
<< <i>Upon reading a lot of these responses, I weep for the future. And I am not simply referring to the message boards themselves. >>
Longacre: The shortest post you have ever made - yet, perhaps the most meaningful and prophetic.
Larry L.
I think that is a little bit of an overstatement of the significance of just about anything said on these boards let alone one generic blanket judgment. The brevity of his statements has no deeper meaning then his usual (& welcome) superfluously written statements.
If you require therapy, seek it elsewhere; this is a coin forum.
PCGS doesn't need this kind of publicity.
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne