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Wa She Wong Auction, Hong Kong Report
ianrussell
Posts: 2,459 ✭✭✭✭✭
Just a quick auction report. I am at the Wa She Wong auction, presented by Ponterio and Associates in Hong Kong at the moment. The first 200 lots took four hours! Over 300 people packed the room, and floor bidders were the most active I've ever seen at any coin auction. Lots were bid from $100 to $27,500, $700 to $70,000 etc. Several lots in the six figures and almost every lot selling for multiples of the presale estimates. While the presale estimates were conservative, the realizations truly show the strength of the Chinese market at the moment, and that the Chinese market appreciates a great pedigree as much as we do in the U.S. (Wa She Wong was a well known dealer (and collector) who operated three coin and stamp shops in Hong Kong during the 1980s - he was putting together a complete collection of China, including all the rare patterns before passing away a decade ago). I'll write more when the auction finishes.
- Ian
- Ian
Ian Russell
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
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thanks for the updates!
that is a major sale
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
"A Chinese vase discovered during a house clearance sold for a world record-breaking £53.1 million... The 18th century Qianlong porcelain vase had been estimated to fetch between £800,000 and £1.2 million by Bainbridges, the provincial auction house handling the sale. "
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/artsales/8127919/Chinese-vase-sells-for-world-record-breaking-53.1-million-at-auction.html
Did anyone here make a successful bid?
I bid strong money (I thought) 2x high estimates on 3 lots and was high bidder on zippo!
Were most of the successful bidders from China?
This just makes me want to work harder getting more pieces for my collection
My wantlist & references
<< <i>Do these auction houses put artificially low estimates just to make it sound like the market is 'hot'? or is it just incompetence? C'mon now, estimate $10,000-15,000 and sells for $400,000? get real. >>
This coin in particular does not have any price history, and until more recently rare copper patterns sell for a fraction of silver dollar patterns. While yes, the estimate was conservative, I could also see people thinking an estimate of $100,000 was way too high pre-auction.
The second day of auction (non-Wa She Wong) also featured sprited bidding and continued to set records.
- Ian
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
I wonder if this may be like the Millennia collection, which coins have been selling for 20% less when they come back to market.
Living in Taipei, I see many signs of Chinese money pushing up asset prices. Real estate in Taipei, Hong Kong, China and even Vancouver are reaching new highs. Taipei prices have doubled in the past 4-5 years. The Economist magazine has published several stories over the past year or so commenting on the ever rising prices of garlic, traditional Chinese medicines as well as the more traditional assets of gold and real estate.
I think the problem ultimately goes to China's booming economy and it's cheap currency. As US dollars flow into China to buy its exports the government must increase the total pile of foreign reserves it holds as it is loath to let the RMB rise which might wipe out much of China's export-led economy. Nevertheless, eventually something will have to break. I don't think Chinese coins currently make a good investment.
<< <i>. I don't think Chinese coins currently make a good investment. >>
ColinG, does your comment pertain to Gold and Platinum Pandas aswell?
<< <i>Prices for Chinese coins are crazy now. Basically, I think it's a bubble akin to the US real estate market in 2007 or internet stocks in 2000. Prices are up 500% and more from sales just 2 or 3 years ago. For example lot 132 a Fookien Ration dollar went for $11,50. In 2008 Champion Auctions sold two ex-Kann[!] coins in the same grade for about $2500 each. Lot 318 a Ju-I Military Ration dollar hammered at $25,875. Champion sold one about 3 years ago for around $2900 [which was pedigreed to a 1971 Christie's sale]. Michael Chou told me common Hupeh and Kiangnan dollars that would have sold for $30 two years ago are no going for $200!
Living in Taipei, I see many signs of Chinese money pushing up asset prices. Real estate in Taipei, Hong Kong, China and even Vancouver are reaching new highs. Taipei prices have doubled in the past 4-5 years. The Economist magazine has published several stories over the past year or so commenting on the ever rising prices of garlic, traditional Chinese medicines as well as the more traditional assets of gold and real estate.
I think the problem ultimately goes to China's booming economy and it's cheap currency. As US dollars flow into China to buy its exports the government must increase the total pile of foreign reserves it holds as it is loath to let the RMB rise which might wipe out much of China's export-led economy. Nevertheless, eventually something will have to break. I don't think Chinese coins currently make a good investment. >>
On an absolute basis do you have any sense of a growing number of chinese collectors or not?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Prices for Chinese coins are crazy now. Basically, I think it's a bubble akin to the US real estate market in 2007 or internet stocks in 2000. Prices are up 500% and more from sales just 2 or 3 years ago. For example lot 132 a Fookien Ration dollar went for $11,50. In 2008 Champion Auctions sold two ex-Kann[!] coins in the same grade for about $2500 each. Lot 318 a Ju-I Military Ration dollar hammered at $25,875. Champion sold one about 3 years ago for around $2900 [which was pedigreed to a 1971 Christie's sale]. Michael Chou told me common Hupeh and Kiangnan dollars that would have sold for $30 two years ago are no going for $200!
Living in Taipei, I see many signs of Chinese money pushing up asset prices. Real estate in Taipei, Hong Kong, China and even Vancouver are reaching new highs. Taipei prices have doubled in the past 4-5 years. The Economist magazine has published several stories over the past year or so commenting on the ever rising prices of garlic, traditional Chinese medicines as well as the more traditional assets of gold and real estate.
I think the problem ultimately goes to China's booming economy and it's cheap currency. As US dollars flow into China to buy its exports the government must increase the total pile of foreign reserves it holds as it is loath to let the RMB rise which might wipe out much of China's export-led economy. Nevertheless, eventually something will have to break. I don't think Chinese coins currently make a good investment. >>
For rare (and rare-in-grade) Chinese coins the market is so wild that it's hard to predict where the prices will shake out in the end. However, for common dollars, circ, problem free, and unchopped, I feel very comfortable with portraits around $50 and dragons around $250 and don't feel it's bubbly at all. (The market is somewhat over these numbers right now.) For some scarcer modern issues I feel there's plenty of support, especially the smaller gold and silver zodiacs first series, 1998 tenth and half gold pandas, and <5000 mintage pieces smaller than 5oz size.
Does their website show your order as having been paid? Has your check cleared your bank? Do they indicate a shipment tracking number for your order on the website?
Sometimes you need to call Bowers & Merena to "kick start" the shipping process. I have had my check deposited and the lots not be marked for shipment unless I called. Maybe a kink in their system.
bidask - I assume the number of Chinese collectors is on the increase. If 25 million Chinese join the 'middle'class' [not really comparable with the US idea of middle class] more people will have money to spend on hobbies such as coins. So, it's entirely logical that prices should be trending upwards. But NOT a 300 - 400% jump in two years.
Lancastercoin - Perhaps you are right and there's no bubble in common dragon dollars and Fat Man dollars, etc. but prices, in my view, have gone up too far too fast. I was at the dealers here in Taipei a few days ago and they said be very careful buying now. Prices for Yuan Shih-kai dollars [Fat Man] year 3, one of the most common coins of the 20th century have doubled this year. The whole episode reminds me of what David Bowers wrote about the bubble in US coins in the early 1980s in his book The Expert's Guide. Prices reached unsustainable levels largely due to the higher inflation expectations of the times as well as the increased interest as an inflation hedge from Wall Street investors. The inflation didn't last neither did the interest from Wall Street. The market headed south a few years later.
<< <i>Prices for Chinese coins are crazy now. Basically, I think it's a bubble akin to the US real estate market in 2007 or internet stocks in 2000. Prices are up 500% and more from sales just 2 or 3 years ago. For example lot 132 a Fookien Ration dollar went for $11,50. In 2008 Champion Auctions sold two ex-Kann[!] coins in the same grade for about $2500 each. Lot 318 a Ju-I Military Ration dollar hammered at $25,875. Champion sold one about 3 years ago for around $2900 [which was pedigreed to a 1971 Christie's sale]. Michael Chou told me common Hupeh and Kiangnan dollars that would have sold for $30 two years ago are no going for $200!
Living in Taipei, I see many signs of Chinese money pushing up asset prices. Real estate in Taipei, Hong Kong, China and even Vancouver are reaching new highs. Taipei prices have doubled in the past 4-5 years. The Economist magazine has published several stories over the past year or so commenting on the ever rising prices of garlic, traditional Chinese medicines as well as the more traditional assets of gold and real estate.
I think the problem ultimately goes to China's booming economy and it's cheap currency. As US dollars flow into China to buy its exports the government must increase the total pile of foreign reserves it holds as it is loath to let the RMB rise which might wipe out much of China's export-led economy. Nevertheless, eventually something will have to break. I don't think Chinese coins currently make a good investment. >>
A prominent coin dealer said much the same to me last April, said he was selling out. He was way too early, if he was right at all. The assumption seems to be that China's economy must soon weaken and Chinese coins will roll back down the same hill they came up. Maybe so, but I think it's foolish to assume the worst. Once upon a time, when I was a lad, you could buy choice Morgan Dollars for a couple of bucks. If the only consideration was price, then $25 a coin was bubble level. Beyond price, collectors need to consider the bigger picture. There has been an enormous buildup of private wealth in China (there are hundreds of thousands of millionaires), coin collecting is just taking off and there are probably hundreds of modern coins with populations under 2,500. What's the right price for one of these if 10,000 collectors decide they need it?
There will always be run ups and corrections, but how easy is it to replace a rare coin once it is sold? Right now, you probably can't without paying a king's ransom. That might well be what the latest price spike is telling us — the era of plentiful Chinese rarities is ending.
Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com
<< <i>So tel me. Wa she wong, or wa she not? >>
'Kano, lets put it this way. Mr. Wong's heirs are definitely not complaining. And the new owners of the coins are probably not complaining either.
<< <i>Let's come back to the price topic couple weeks later. It will be very interesting to see how the CNG auction goes. Many rare chinese coins will be in that auction. I bet some of the coins price will break record again like the Copper coin that sold for 400K in this WA She Wong auction. >>
CNG auction??
Hong kong/Long Beach JUNE Table #838
MACAU
emgworldwide@gmail.com
Cell: 512.808.3197
EMERGING MARKET GROUP
PCGS, NGC, CCE & NCS, CGC, PSA, Auth. Dealer
<< <i>CNG auction >>
Thanx!
Hong kong/Long Beach JUNE Table #838
MACAU
emgworldwide@gmail.com
Cell: 512.808.3197
EMERGING MARKET GROUP
PCGS, NGC, CCE & NCS, CGC, PSA, Auth. Dealer
Its better to remain silent and thought of as a fool instead of speaking and removing all doubt
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>As much as it pains me to write this I will...
Its better to remain silent and thought of as a fool instead of speaking and removing all doubt >>
That would make for a dull discussion, wouldn't it?
Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
Pandacollector.com
http://www.bowersandmerena.com/auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=137641
The NY Auctions of Chinese material are going to be very interesting, that's for sure.
https://www.civitasgalleries.com
New coins listed monthly!
Josh Moran
CIVITAS Galleries, Ltd.
<< <i>The Ponterio/Bowers sale has a very unusual piece in it as well:
http://www.bowersandmerena.com/auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=137641
The NY Auctions of Chinese material are going to be very interesting, that's for sure. >>
Lack of modern china material shows how high teh domestic demand is here! IMO
Hong kong/Long Beach JUNE Table #838
MACAU
emgworldwide@gmail.com
Cell: 512.808.3197
EMERGING MARKET GROUP
PCGS, NGC, CCE & NCS, CGC, PSA, Auth. Dealer
To the Moon!
Wow I really like what I own...but what a dang tough time getting some more!!
I am on the trail of some though!!