Options
any undiscovered early u.s mint patterns?
coachleonard
Posts: 995 ✭
Seeing the thread on the new book about the old U.S Mint spurred me to finally post this question: does anyone think there's any chance that undiscovered U.S Mint patterns (say, from 1792) might still come to light? Or is the consensus pretty much that any that had been made have been documented?
0
Comments
MOO
TD
lots of pattern & experimental coinage
that has neverseen the light of day,
nor has been known to the public.
I don't know how far back they have
material from, but I believe an inventory
is being taken (will take a few years,
in all probability), and we'll all be very
surprised by what they have.
Dennis
Like VOC Numismatics on facebook
Who's to say that there isn't some 1807 capped bust dollar sitting in some dark corner out there, never having received the approval to move forward into production, it will remain so, undiscovered - that is until it's discovered.
<< <i>I'm certain that the U.S. Mint itself has
lots of pattern & experimental coinage
that has neverseen the light of day,
nor has been known to the public.
I don't know how far back they have
material from, but I believe an inventory
is being taken (will take a few years,
in all probability), and we'll all be very
surprised by what they have. >>
Isn't this a part of the Re-Branding Fred? I recall reading somewhere that they were doing an internal inventory for eventual display.
Maybe some IKE's will turn up?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Since we don't know what we don't know, it certainly could be possible that there are undiscovered us mint patterns out there. But if they are undiscovered, they may remain that way forever.
Who's to say that there isn't some 1807 capped bust dollar sitting in some dark corner out there, never having received the approval to move forward into production, it will remain so, undiscovered - that is until it's discovered. >>
That's a nice thought. Would love to see that design in a dollar size. Likewise a Capped Bust Left or Capped Head Left $10.
An 1834 Capped Bust Dollar pattern or an 1834 Capped Head Left $10 pattern would be possible if the Mint considered putting them in the diplomatic proof sets that ended up with 1804 dollars and eagles.
TD
effort, but yes, it's something that is being done
internally, for all of the Mint's around the country.
there's gotta be stuff like that which hasn't been seen outside the mint's doors.
This is more probable for the period from about 1850 forward. Here is a partial list of some that have been identified in recent years. Some of these coins have been discovered, others are known to have existed but examples remain to be located.
1907 $10 S-G plain edge – identified and confirmed, sold by Heritage (RWB)
1907 $10 S-G irregular stars edge, knife rim - identified and confirmed, SI-NNC (RWB)
1907 $10 S-G irregular stars edge, normal rim - identified and confirmed, SI-NNC (RWB)
1908 $5 S-G designs - identified and confirmed, coins not located, hubs at mint (RWB/Mercanti)
1908 $5 Pratt design w/rim, no initials - identified and confirmed, coins not located (RWB)
1908 $2.50 Pratt design, inverted rev - identified and confirmed, coins not located (RWB)
1916 25¢ McNeil design w/dolphins (Kline?)
1922/1921 rev $1 HR – identified and confirmed (D Lange/RWB)
1922 $1 Med Relief – identified and confirmed (D Lange/RWB)
1942 1¢ pure zinc + other compositions identified and confirmed (multiple discoverers)
1942 1¢ stainless steel - coins not located (RWB)
1942 1¢ copperweld steel
1942 1¢ phenolic plastic (Anderson/RWB)
1942 experimental token in glass and multiple plastics (Judd/Anderson/others/RWB)
ND (1942) “War Series” cent - coins not located (RWB)
1942 5¢ stainless steel - coins not located (RWB)
1942 5¢ 50% silver and other Ag alloys - some coins located (JK/others)
1952 1¢ Fraser Lincoln/Oak tree design - coins not located (RWB)
1970 $ Peace design .800 fine - coins not located (RWB)
1977 2¢ design unknown - coins not located (RWB)
1977 $1 Eisenhower – small, 12-sided - coins not located (RWB)
I’m sure there are many others that were not known a generation ago.
.
Funny thing about those coins....they were struck in Philadelphia in August of 1974 with the three designers present, and some of the coins were then put on display at the ANA convention in Bal Harbour, Fla. Several months later, as I was doing a story for Coin World about the imminent release of the coins, I dug the publicity pix out of the morgue to use in my story, and only then realized that the coins were Proofs without mint marks, whereas the Proof sets being sold by the Mint in 1975 all had mint marks. I mentioned this in my story, but the Editor at the time removed the mention from the story.
.
The President of the United States was supposed to have been present at the first striking in August of 1974, but as Gerald Ford had just taken office two days earlier upon Nixon's resignation he was somewhat preoccupied. His Appointments Secretary represented him at the striking, and reports stated that a set of the coins had been given to the Appointment Secretary for the President. I kept digging into it, and was ultimately told that the presentation set had been returned to the Mint at a later date and exchanged for a normal set.
TD
Sure, they would be considered a variety but perhaps they were once considered a pattern?
<< <i>Neither the gold $1 nor the mixed up cents were proposals for new coinage designs or materials. The cents are just errors and the gold pieces are -- well, I've never seen a really good reason for why they were made -- just for fun? >>
Philip Diehl wanted to make half ounce gold strikes to sell to collectors. I once saw a picture of a Sacagawea reverse with the denomination given as five dollars which one might ASSUME was intended for the gold collector pieces. One of those might turn up some day.
TD
<< <i>Thanks! That is interesting - I guess it was because the planchets are nearly identical diameter. >>
Yes. The gold strikes from the regular Sacagawea one dollar design were struck on standard half eagle planchets. They may have edge rolled them a tad to let them fit into a 26.5 mm Sackie collar (struck half eagles are 27.0 mm), but they may not have had to since they are designed to fit into a reeded half eagle collar, and the reeds on the collar reduce the available space a bit anyways.
TD
I had it on consignment and later bought it myself. I think I sold it for $7500.
It is one of the only branch-mint patterns.
<< <i>A few weeks after I went on my own in 1993, a guy came in with a 1884-O dollar struck in copper. It was tested and tested, the edge reeding matched regular 1884-O dollars so it was deemed genuine and graded XF and encapsulated by ANACS and given a J-number (J-1731a).
I had it on consignment and later bought it myself. I think I sold it for $7500.
It is one of the only branch-mint patterns. >>
I remember that coin!
TD
(Don't ask me what I had for lunch)
It came out of U.S soil (but I don't know exactly where) as part of a detecting lot of old dug coppers. I did post a pic of it a little while back, but no conclusions.
<< <i>Likely not much left from the early days, but there are "undiscovered patterns and experimental pieces" as experience demonstrates.
This is more probable for the period from about 1850 forward. Here is a partial list of some that have been identified in recent years. Some of these coins have been discovered, others are known to have existed but examples remain to be located.
1916 25¢ McNeil design w/dolphins
<< <i>
Not really un-discovered. It was a "no-sale" in a Heritage auction in the last couple of years ago. I don't think I'm the only one who can arrange a sale, but I'm at your service.
<< <i>? >>
check Heritage archives "not sold".
It's out there, therefore not "undiscovered"
<< <i>
<< <i>? >>
check Heritage archives "not sold".
It's out there, therefore not "undiscovered" >>
I think that RWB was pointing that out as a fairly recently discovered example of a previously undiscovered pattern coin.
<< <i>Weren't there gold Sacky dollars issued as well? Where are they now? >>
They are in Ft Knox along with the 1933 Saint's.
The name is LEE!
I know this was not on RWB's list which he started at the very reasonable date of 1850. A coin not specifically documented (and if I'm wrong I thrill to know). 1792 Disme Specimen.
Andy and I owned the Parmelee 1892 coin ("VF, old scratches"). I've heard there's one much better (could it be?)and one worse.
Pogue has Heritage's Half Disme PCGS Specimen. There's a copper 10c Specimen (Larry Hanks). I've handled an XF40 NGC (EAC 30), there are a dozen or more. All surely patterns. But why no disme? My dream coin.
(actually, of RWB's list, I've only ever heard of two of them before, but the Peace design is one of my all time favorites!)
Would love to see images of those that have been tracked down.
<< <i>Auction and lot, please. Does not come up in a search. >>
Did you click on include unsold lots?
Considering what the bronze cast sold for last year, the coin could possibly bring several hundred thousand.
The obverse will look like this:
[Image copyright 2005 by Roger W. Burdette]
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>? >>
check Heritage archives "not sold".
It's out there, therefore not "undiscovered" >>
I think that RWB was pointing that out as a fairly recently discovered example of a previously undiscovered pattern coin.
Guess I missed the "seen and confirmed" notation. Guess what I said wasn't helpful because it was not relevant. I'm sure I rephrased the premise sloppily. I have photos that weren't mentioned by Roger, as might many. Just trying to add to the general knowledge base on an issue someone else brought up.
I'll do some more checking, I may have been confused about the dolphins. It may have been the "common" variety
I thought one of our board members owns one??
prepared a plaster medallion with a Liberty head. Press reports of early February 1825
stated that a die using the Persico design would soon be prepared by Chief Engraver
William Kneass.
Denga
I think Mr. Kline was the first to locate a dolphin design image.
Too bad the "real thing" had not been discovered - would be fantastic to see the pattern coin.
Considering that more than a few pieces have been discovered in the past ten years or so, I think it's extraordinarily unlikely that we will not be finding more coins in the future. What they will be is anybody's guess.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
-- Dentuck