of all the coins that have been resubmitted for a regrade while in a Secure Plus holder to date, what percentage have actually gotten an upgrade?
tcmitssr -
The exact number is a state secret .... but it is towards the high end of your suggestions.
---------------------
Remember - Secure Plus helps us make sure coins don't get upgraded for the wrong reasons (doctoring). We are happy to upgrade for the right reason, namely, that the coin deserves a certain grade. Our graders do try hard to give every coin the best grade it deserves.
If anything, Secure Plus is a confidence booster....... The more you know the more confident your decision making is. That pyschology is the exact opposite of what most people think when they think of Secure Plus.
Here is another thought - when a coin is resubmitted through Secure Plus as a regrade in a Secure Plus holder - don't you think that is sending a strong message that the submitter - honestly - and without screwing with the coin - thinks our graders overlooked something and really believes that the coin should upgrade. And has the confidence to send it right back in. Don't you think that makes an impression?
Secure Plus wasn't developed to hurt the good guys. It's purpose is to stop the bad guys from doing what they have always done.
"If Stewart resubmits the coin through Secure Plus for grading we will compare the coin to the original Secure Plus image after which we will decide what to do."
What more could anyone ask. Personally, I would not expect anything from PCGS if it was my coin. I could be wrong, but Mr. Blay could be upset if he finds out his coin was tooled before the first SP submission. Seeing that he is a promoter of PCGS, I would expect PCGS will somehow keep Mr. Blay from changing his enthusiasm of PCGS. Anyone else who complains of such, is just jealous that they probably would not get the same treatment. Too bad. That's a business decision and has nothing to do with grading.
If you trust PCGS's evaluation, then this situation demonstrates how even one of the experts can mis-grade a coin. If you trust Mr. Blay, then this situation demonstrates how even PCGS can mis-grade a coin, Secure Plus or not. If you trust them both, then both conclusions can be drawn.
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
<< <i>"If Stewart resubmits the coin through Secure Plus for grading we will compare the coin to the original Secure Plus image after which we will decide what to do."
What more could anyone ask. Personally, I would not expect anything from PCGS if it was my coin. I could be wrong, but Mr. Blay could be upset if he finds out his coin was tooled before the first SP submission. Seeing that he is a promoter of PCGS, I would expect PCGS will somehow keep Mr. Blay from changing his enthusiasm of PCGS. Anyone else who complains of such, is just jealous that they probably would not get the same treatment. Too bad. That's a business decision and has nothing to do with grading. >>
I completely disagree with this. One of the foundations of the TPG process and what has helped make PCGS so successful is that the process is blinded, and everyone gets the same fair chance at a grade. If you change the public perception such that some parties are playing by different rules in the grading room, then all bets are off, IMO.
In the statement you quoted, I did not get the sense that SB was getting preferential treatment. It sounds to me that he is getting what anyone else would at the Secure Plus tier.
<< <i>of all the coins that have been resubmitted for a regrade while in a Secure Plus holder to date, what percentage have actually gotten an upgrade?
tcmitssr -
The exact number is a state secret .... but it is towards the high end of your suggestions.
---------------------
Remember - Secure Plus helps us make sure coins don't get upgraded for the wrong reasons (doctoring). We are happy to upgrade for the right reason, namely, that the coin deserves a certain grade. Our graders do try hard to give every coin the best grade it deserves.
If anything, Secure Plus is a confidence booster....... The more you know the more confident your decision making is. That pyschology is the exact opposite of what most people think when they think of Secure Plus.
Here is another thought - when a coin is resubmitted through Secure Plus as a regrade in a Secure Plus holder - don't you think that is sending a strong message that the submitter - honestly - and without screwing with the coin - thinks our graders overlooked something and really believes that the coin should upgrade. And has the confidence to send it right back in. Don't you think that makes an impression?
Secure Plus wasn't developed to hurt the good guys. It's purpose is to stop the bad guys from doing what they have always done. >>
At this point in time, it appears that the "End Run" is the way to go for those nasty doctors as it has now become obvious that ONLY Secure Plus submissions are scanned.
I suppose that scanning everything would close this hole but will the protests equal the current TSA scanning protests?
Personally, I don't have a problem with either since a coin should be graded on its own merits.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
At this point in time, it appears that the "End Run" is the way to go for those nasty doctors as it has now become obvious that ONLY Secure Plus submissions are scanned.
This is certainly NOT the case. SP is done for everything over $200K officially, those submitted for SP, and most likely any coin OVER a certain amount (say $50k). You could probably add in any coin submitted from known and suspected dr's and a random high value coin here and there. As they get more adept at doing this and speed up the process, the dollar min value will be lowered. Makes no sense to do this for every coin or any coin under $1000
This is not about money. I am a big boy. I have had my share of down grades and have had many upgrades. I believe this coin was under graded as an MS 65.
However I was under the impression that PCGS Secure grading was aimed at stopping gradeflation. If Mr. Willis is correct in his statement that more than 10% but less than 25% of PCGS Secure holders
get upgrades then there is something very unclear about stopping gradeflation.
Let's remember this coin was AT LEAST TWICE graded MS 65. Could the graders at PCGS have missed tooling twice before they rendered a grade on this coin ? I believe that PCGS and NGC both net grade coins. Perhaps Mr. Willis can elaborate on this fact.
Small spots do not bother me but dipping a coin to remove them does bother me. However PCGS and NGC and CAC believe dipping is acceptable.
Lastly what really hurts is that this coin has been in my collection for more than 10 years .
Tradedollarnut - What if one of your Trade dollars from your phenomenal set was called tooled after it was resubmitted for a grade review. I am sure you would also be crushed.
<< <i> Tradedollarnut - What if one of your Trade dollars from your phenomenal set was called tooled after it was resubmitted for a grade review. I am sure you would also be crushed. >>
Wellllll - first of all, the only trade dollar in my set that I'd consider cracking is the 1877 that didn't get the + it deserved when all three that I own were submitted together. And if it came back 'tooled' upon doing that, I'd look at it closely and try to decide if they were right or wrong ... then I'd shake my head and give the coin to Laura to resubmit ad nauseum until it was back in the MS65 holder. Those extra 2 or 3 submissions are just the price of playing the game.
<< <i>This is not about money. I am a big boy. I have had my share of down grades and have had many upgrades. I believe this coin was under graded as an MS 65.
However I was under the impression that PCGS Secure grading was aimed at stopping gradeflation. If Mr. Willis is correct in his statement that more than 10% but less than 25% of PCGS Secure holders
get upgrades then there is something very unclear about stopping gradeflation.
Let's remember this coin was AT LEAST TWICE graded MS 65. Could the graders at PCGS have missed tooling twice before they rendered a grade on this coin ? I believe that PCGS and NGC both net grade coins. Perhaps Mr. Willis can elaborate on this fact.
Small spots do not bother me but dipping a coin to remove them does bother me. However PCGS and NGC and CAC believe dipping is acceptable.
Lastly what really hurts is that this coin has been in my collection for more than 10 years .
Tradedollarnut - What if one of your Trade dollars from your phenomenal set was called tooled after it was resubmitted for a grade review. I am sure you would also be crushed.
Stewart >>
Secure Plus aims to stem gradeflation which results from physical alteration of the coin [trying to play tool em 'n fool em] and not necessarily that which results from a simple difference of opinion.
On a side note, since only coins worth $3,000 or less can be submitted using the regular line, and coins valued at more than $3,000 must be submitted via Express line or higher pursuant to the submission rules .... then by definition only those coins worth $3,000 or less are currently not getting scanned. This is in response to the comments that PCGS automatically SP's $200,000 coins or $50,000 coins. Indeed, under the rules (which may or may not be followed in every case by submittors) coins worth $3,001+ should be getting scanned - right? Or, am I wrong on my assumption that $3,000+ coins MUST use a service tier that includes scanning?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Here's the fee schedule fee schedule any coin $200k or over must be SP any other coin could be SP if the user asks for it and pays for it. It is my opinion that PCGS also SP scans coins over a certain limit (say $50k) and coins from suspected dr's. This limits their future liability As time passes and PCGS gets more adept at the procedure, they will lower the $200k mark to some lower number. Eventually all coins over some nominal amount (say $10k) will get SP scanned.
As a collector if I had high value coins (say over $10k) I would want them SP scanned for insurance purposes (I think you get a 10% insurance deduction)
<< <i> Tradedollarnut - What if one of your Trade dollars from your phenomenal set was called tooled after it was resubmitted for a grade review. I am sure you would also be crushed. >>
Wellllll - first of all, the only trade dollar in my set that I'd consider cracking is the 1877 that didn't get the + it deserved when all three that I own were submitted together. And if it came back 'tooled' upon doing that, I'd look at it closely and try to decide if they were right or wrong ... then I'd shake my head and give the coin to Laura to resubmit ad nauseum until it was back in the MS65 holder. Those extra 2 or 3 submissions are just the price of playing the game. >>
<< <i>Secure Plus aims to stem gradeflation which results from physical alteration of the coin [trying to play tool em 'n fool em] and not necessarily that which results from a simple difference of opinion. >>
One thing has been left unsaid by me and others, but I will say it.
People out there are afraid that once a coin is recognized by PCGS whether in a SP detection or by submitting in a graded holder is that the "current and known" grade will influence a regrade.
I acknowledge these people are human and can be influenced.
But they also see a lot of coins day in and day out. Current(?) grading standards applied over a large number of coins over time will more likely influence them than seeing one coin's previous grade.
I would also say that seeing a current grade may also cause a knee jerk reaction: "it graded that?!?!?!"
There are lots of possibilities.
But it must be reiterated, SP grades are not locked forever.
How many times must it be said?
Well, there is a lot of misinformation that is being spread by word of mouth. That spreads faster than anything that can be posted on a web site and requires reading or time watching a video.
How about an e-mail with the subject line: "Secure Plus Grades Are Not Locked Forever"
and it seems to me from reading this thread, that there is more misinformation out there than information. And it reads to me like PCGS might benefit from continued courtship of major collectors and dealers.
Guess since PCGS called it tooled they also concluded it was a less than $2,000 coin and didn't require SP
BUT
if the submitter put a declared value of over $2,000 shouldn't it have automatically been reverted to the SP service (and an additional fee collected)?
Guess since PCGS called it tooled they also concluded it was a less than $2,000 coin and didn't require SP
BUT
if the submitter put a declared value of over $2,000 shouldn't it have automatically been reverted to the SP service (and an additional fee collected)? >>
I believe that listed $2000 or over figure is missing one or more zeros.
Look under the second from the left column -- "PCGS standard fee," and the adjacent one to the right -- "PCGS Secure Plus Fee"
since the maximum coin value is $100,000 for the highest "PCGS standard fee" service level of "Walk-Through," then any coin over $100,000 must be through the SP service. The same amount applies for Show and Show Express, too.
41. Q: Are both sides of the coin scanned? Or only the obverse? DW: We've done it both ways. We decided just to scan the obverse. 52. Q: If a coin doctor only messed with the reverse, the process wouldn't detect it? Or am I missing something? DW: Think about it. If a coin grades higher than before, the Verifier will be looking at it very closely. We can always scan both sides if we want to.
So, the IF the scan could be used for "alteration" confirmation, it would only be useful on the obverse. They don't scan the reverse.
81. Q: I have heard in the past that Regrades are cracked out by PCGS and regraded with the graders not having knowledge of the prior grade. Is this also true for Secure Plus Regrades? If I submit a coin for Secure Plus in an MS64 holder that is super high-end, borderline MS65, will the graders have the knowledge that it was in an MS64 holder, and use that information in their decision whether to call it an MS64+ or an MS65?
DW: Your understanding of how Regrades work is correct. It works exactly the same way for Secure Plus. The graders will grade the coin whatever it is, with no knowledge of what is was previously.
I suppose a curious grader could look up the info, or for a unique coin the grader may know it already(anyone going to suggest drugging them?).... but DW says the coins are cracked in-house then graded without knowledge of the previous grade.
There is no valid reason for a grader to know the SP scan history of a coin; thus they probably don't have access to the info and the means to use it in a backdoor fashion to get the previous grade.
<< <i>of all the coins that have been resubmitted for a regrade while in a Secure Plus holder to date, what percentage have actually gotten an upgrade?
tcmitssr -
The exact number is a state secret .... but it is towards the high end of your suggestions.
---------------------
Remember - Secure Plus helps us make sure coins don't get upgraded for the wrong reasons (doctoring). We are happy to upgrade for the right reason, namely, that the coin deserves a certain grade. Our graders do try hard to give every coin the best grade it deserves.
If anything, Secure Plus is a confidence booster....... The more you know the more confident your decision making is. That pyschology is the exact opposite of what most people think when they think of Secure Plus.
Here is another thought - when a coin is resubmitted through Secure Plus as a regrade in a Secure Plus holder - don't you think that is sending a strong message that the submitter - honestly - and without screwing with the coin - thinks our graders overlooked something and really believes that the coin should upgrade. And has the confidence to send it right back in. Don't you think that makes an impression?
Secure Plus wasn't developed to hurt the good guys. It's purpose is to stop the bad guys from doing what they have always done. >>
Don,
Again, I have nothing but the highest regard and respect for you and, I believe, it adds to your respect that you are always willing to address these issues in a forums where "Lions vs. Christians," more often than it should be....is the sport of the day.
I ask because I ***BELIEVE*** in Secure Plus, WAY over "beans," as my toned classic commem set is so richly toned as to what the PCGS sniffer test(s) to assure everyone that no games were played when I bought my coins. I know they are real and I bought them from the industry leaders (including a coin company run by a Mr. David Hall) who are also highly respected for knowing coins and grading at the highest levels.
....and yet, I submitted two coins (currently resubmitted and in your corporate hands, right now) that three experts whose names would definitely impress and mean "it's got to be true," said both were sure upgrades from PCGS 65 to PCGS 66. Both came back the first time from Secure Plus as MS 65, not even a plus. As your answer was "the high end of my expectations," that's when I scratch what little hair I have left and go "huh?" When Misters: Shepherd, Mills, Hall and a select handful of other level experts all say "sure thing," and they come back in the same grade (not even a plus).....it makes me wonder.
As I am committed to putting my entire 50 piece type set in Secure Plus, I realize not all will get an upgrade or a plus. One can have coins that come out 65.669 and not make in on the Secure Plus 700 point scale. I'm good with that. Yet, when the best "eyes" in the business all say "sure thing" (essentially, in one phrase or another) and neither my Isabella or Hudson got even a plus........
I submitted both back in Baltimore, in the holder (along with 24 other commems) for Secure Plus regrades. I'd love all 24 to get a plus or an upgrade but I am a realist. Still, that two of the very best got nothing the first time around, "the high end of my expectations," which was 25 percent......just seems like it is too low to me.
I caught grief from some dealers at Baltimore who knew of my commitment to Secure Plus and told me "nobody they know have ever gotten a full point upgrade, you're better off with a green bear and I can BS to that. Secure Plus, I believe will bring my heirs more profit decades from now, I have zero doubt.
Still....that Isabella and Hudson..... I await getting them back in a couple of weeks and see if a regrade/upgrade actually occurred in either.
63. Q: What will happen if I spend $5 K on an NGC coin in a Heritage auction and I send it to you with cross at any grade - (can you do the scan through the slab? it needs to be cracked out, doesn't it?) DW: Crossovers are not accepted in PCGS Secure Plus. You can crack it out and take your chances, or stick to buying PCGS-graded coins. Same as always.
I wonder if PCGS would suggest a "grading submission" where PCGS would accept it holdered, crack it, but the coin could still BB? I could see the potential for complaints from a holder-to-BB grading attempt.
<< <i>"If Stewart resubmits the coin through Secure Plus for grading we will compare the coin to the original Secure Plus image after which we will decide what to do."
What more could anyone ask. Personally, I would not expect anything from PCGS if it was my coin. I could be wrong, but Mr. Blay could be upset if he finds out his coin was tooled before the first SP submission. Seeing that he is a promoter of PCGS, I would expect PCGS will somehow keep Mr. Blay from changing his enthusiasm of PCGS. Anyone else who complains of such, is just jealous that they probably would not get the same treatment. Too bad. That's a business decision and has nothing to do with grading. >>
I completely disagree with this. One of the foundations of the TPG process and what has helped make PCGS so successful is that the process is blinded, and everyone gets the same fair chance at a grade. If you change the public perception such that some parties are playing by different rules in the grading room, then all bets are off, IMO.
In the statement you quoted, I did not get the sense that SB was getting preferential treatment. It sounds to me that he is getting what anyone else would at the Secure Plus tier. >>
I'm not sure if we are on the same page RYK. I am not implying that he is given preferential treatment inside the grading room. I am saying that it is a PCGS business decision if they decide to do anything after the fact. For example, they may provide a credit or give a partial guarantee payment.
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
unfortunately they are not current PCGS Graders ...........
But maybe your candid plea here will persuade the " finalizer" to take an extra long look at your MS 66 commems ! >>
First, that was not my intention. If they come back, again, as a "regular 65," that will be the last time I send them in for a regrade. I'll accept the results, twice completed, and figure I have two "wow" pieces that will capture moon money in 20-30 years, regardless, although I'll be disappointed for sure because, most of all, *I* trust my grading skills enough to believe they merit a higher grade.
Plea? No, more a personal statement on the state of grading among knowledgeable people. I know how to properly grade commems. Been doing it for over 50 years, once I learned that two members from my family tree are on coins in the series. I wanted to make the point, perhaps poorly/not clearly enough, that several top people...well respected dealers who are known for selling the cream of the crop were united in their opinions but that the pros doing the actual grading...saw things differently. Grading is an art, not a science and reasonable people can, and should, agree to disagree at times.
I don't believe for a second those who say that a SP coin, once graded, will never be upgraded while in the SP holder. On the contrary, I believe that SP, ultimately, will bring more value upon resale than any "bean" of any type ever will in the years ahead. Think about it, a "wow" toner is scientifically certified to be NT, without doubt. A coin with a "bean" is someone, however respected, basically saying "a-yup" to the grade already given a coin by the number 1 grading service in the world. "Beans," IMHO, are for people who need their hands held as "collectors," and I put that in quotes because if you need a bean, I think you're not a collector at all, you're a scared investor/speculator who really doesn't know how to grade. SP, OTOH, attests that your toned coin is natural/genuine/real with no games having been played.
Regardless of the grades my coins receive, within 6 months all 50 of my type-set will be SP. Even if not one additional grade changes, I will have the peace of mind of knowing that no one will ever be able to debate whether my monsters are NT or AT. If that were the only benefit of Secure Plus, that would be good enough for me. There are far more benefits to SP and I'm convinced that any big ticket coin I ever have will, sooner rather than later, be in an SP holder.
I think you are totally confused by SP. What you really want is the Coin Sniffer technology that has not been released yet. Once your coins have been scanned and sniffed, then and only then, you get your desired result. All SP does right now is take a snapshot of your coin and keep its fingerprint in the PCGS database so that at some future point someone can say the two coins are identical and no changes have taken place since the last scan (such as tooling, whizing). Any tier service now gets you the possibility of + grades, btw
The Coin Sniffer, on the other hand, will determine if there is any foreign substance on the coin (such as putty, nose grease), if it has been AT'd, etc. So Sniffed coins are certified to be totally clean.
Here is the Press Release on Coin Sniffer: Coin Sniffer
If you have a complete or nearly complete collection, you are being quite foolish to send in one or two at a time for regrade. Set Review is the collector's biggest weapon in the game - have the entire thing reviewed at once! The PQ coins will stand out - for either plusses or upgrades. But having the entire set there allows for the graders to get a feel for the overall quality, rather than a disjointed submission of a few at a time that gets inserted in between two other disjointed submissions.
<< <i>If you have a complete or nearly complete collection, you are being quite foolish to send in one or two at a time for regrade. Set Review is the collector's biggest weapon in the game - have the entire thing reviewed at once! The PQ coins will stand out - for either plusses or upgrades. But having the entire set there allows for the graders to get a feel for the overall quality, rather than a disjointed submission of a few at a time that gets inserted in between two other disjointed submissions. >>
Why should grading of individual coins be influenced by coins around it?
<< <i>If you have a complete or nearly complete collection, you are being quite foolish to send in one or two at a time for regrade. Set Review is the collector's biggest weapon in the game - have the entire thing reviewed at once! The PQ coins will stand out - for either plusses or upgrades. But having the entire set there allows for the graders to get a feel for the overall quality, rather than a disjointed submission of a few at a time that gets inserted in between two other disjointed submissions. >>
Why should grading of individual coins be influenced by coins around it? >>
Because grading is done by human beings... with human limitations and tendencies.
There's a man who collects in my town. He likes to upgrade his collection. We've become pretty decent friends, so he stops in the shop often. We discuss history, manufacture, varieties and grades. We visit a few hours per month. Most on the outside don't know me on the inside. Anyway, as it were; it pains me every time he says: "I'm cracking this one out", especially considering the coins I purchase and send in for grading to PCGS (not even for SP), I do for my own reason.
FC doesn't care one bit about paper or plastic. He ALWAYS buys the coin and he only uses them for trading up in his own way of collecting. He's not a bit into plastic. It actually impresses me on the one side.
To each their own. I'm not to judge, but I feel the pain of the "crack-out".
<< <i>If you have a complete or nearly complete collection, you are being quite foolish to send in one or two at a time for regrade. Set Review is the collector's biggest weapon in the game - have the entire thing reviewed at once! The PQ coins will stand out - for either plusses or upgrades. But having the entire set there allows for the graders to get a feel for the overall quality, rather than a disjointed submission of a few at a time that gets inserted in between two other disjointed submissions. >>
Why should grading of individual coins be influenced by coins around it? >>
Never heard of classical/operant conditioning? Dealers/submitters refer to the whole thing as setup coins.
<< <i>Why should grading of individual coins be influenced by coins around it?
Because grading is done by human beings... with human limitations and tendencies. >>
So, too, is medical diagnosis, but do you tell that to your doctor when he misdiagnoses you? We hold professionals to higher standards. This is no professional who can't grade a coin just because it's in a pile of coins.
<< <i>Why should grading of individual coins be influenced by coins around it?
Because grading is done by human beings... with human limitations and tendencies. >>
So, too, is medical diagnosis, but do you tell that to your doctor when he misdiagnoses you? We hold professionals to higher standards. This is no professional who can't grade a coin just because it's in a pile of coins. >>
I doubt that a doctor sees a roll of 20 patients for 5-10 seconds each and makes his diagnosis from that.
<< <i>Why should grading of individual coins be influenced by coins around it?
Because grading is done by human beings... with human limitations and tendencies. >>
So, too, is medical diagnosis, but do you tell that to your doctor when he misdiagnoses you? We hold professionals to higher standards. This is no professional who can't grade a coin just because it's in a pile of coins. >>
I doubt that a doctor sees a roll of 20 patients for 5-10 seconds each and makes his diagnosis from that. >>
Well, now I'm curious. Is it that you fail to agree with my premise that professionals are held to higher standards than non-professionals, or is it that you failed to have grasped that was my premise?
<< <i>Why should grading of individual coins be influenced by coins around it?
Because grading is done by human beings... with human limitations and tendencies. >>
So, too, is medical diagnosis, but do you tell that to your doctor when he misdiagnoses you? We hold professionals to higher standards. This is no professional who can't grade a coin just because it's in a pile of coins. >>
I doubt that a doctor sees a roll of 20 patients for 5-10 seconds each and makes his diagnosis from that. >>
Well, now I'm curious. Is it that you fail to agree with my premise that professionals are held to higher standards than non-professionals, or is it that you failed to have grasped that was my premise? >>
Neither, just that in spite of those higher standards professionals can and do disagree.
<< <i>This is not about money. I am a big boy. I have had my share of down grades and have had many upgrades. I believe this coin was under graded as an MS 65.
However I was under the impression that PCGS Secure grading was aimed at stopping gradeflation. If Mr. Willis is correct in his statement that more than 10% but less than 25% of PCGS Secure holders
get upgrades then there is something very unclear about stopping gradeflation.
Let's remember this coin was AT LEAST TWICE graded MS 65. Could the graders at PCGS have missed tooling twice before they rendered a grade on this coin ? I believe that PCGS and NGC both net grade coins. Perhaps Mr. Willis can elaborate on this fact.
Small spots do not bother me but dipping a coin to remove them does bother me. However PCGS and NGC and CAC believe dipping is acceptable.
Lastly what really hurts is that this coin has been in my collection for more than 10 years.
Tradedollarnut - What if one of your Trade dollars from your phenomenal set was called tooled after it was resubmitted for a grade review. I am sure you would also be crushed.
Stewart >>
I'd have thought this was about the loss in value associated with the downgrade to "Genuine" on this particular coin. As I see it, now, it's rather about making a statement as to the inconsistency of the graders. As far as that goes, let's remember the standards these professionals are grading by. Namely, those are "market grading" standards. I can understand how they can, from time to time, make "mistakes." I'd think anybody can. I'll tell you this, though, they'll do that much less often than non-professionals.
Bottom-line, do you want to play the game? Just deal with it, Stewart. Expect them to make you right, when you've got a case. That's one thing you can, realistically, hold them to. It's unrealistic to hold them to never making mistakes, though.
<< <i>If you have a complete or nearly complete collection, you are being quite foolish to send in one or two at a time for regrade. Set Review is the collector's biggest weapon in the game - have the entire thing reviewed at once! The PQ coins will stand out - for either plusses or upgrades. But having the entire set there allows for the graders to get a feel for the overall quality, rather than a disjointed submission of a few at a time that gets inserted in between two other disjointed submissions. >>
Bingo. That is exactly my game plan. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I see TDN's point on this, especially when you're dealing with coins that graders don't often see. Ie., if you have 15 Capped Bust small dentil dimes at or around the MS 65 grade, it's probably best to send them in at the same time.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
those days where we all thought a regrade coin could not receive a lower grade appear to be gone .
I find it a grey area , because if the previous grade is unknown to the graders ( on a re-submittal in the holder ) , and their in a real tight mood -
then theoretically all your coins could still downgrade ........ but that seems not to be what happens .
Seems to me , the new lower graded coin gets put back to the orig. grade ( after checking the orig. slab grade ) before encapsulation .......
On the other hand , the grading guarantee could kick in if new grade is lower, but that doz little good if you just submitted 20 of your best coins .......
and of course as I said , this is a grey area - because as we all know ; many coins have grades that change like a ping-pong ball when repeatedly submitted ,
yet to get grades back on regrades that were already slabbed ,........... that are lower , - seems to be pretty rare .
for example :
I take the bottom 20 Franklins from my hoard of 150 PCGS 1954 MS 65 FBL 's ,
these are pretty doggie , lackluster, hazed, poor eye appealing coins ........ ( bought by me 15 to 20 years ago ...... when I bought the holder an' not the coin )
I submit them in the holders for regrade : how many you think are going to get downgraded ?
Now I take those same 20 PCGS MS 65 FBL piggish looking coins and crack them all out and submitt them raw ,...... how many of them you think will get downgraded ?
I would be willing to bet the slabbed regrades , and the number of them that get downgraded - would be FAR less then the raw ones that get whacked down .
I can say this with some authority , as I have been cracking out 1954 Franklins for many years , and resubmitting raw thru Teletrade -
and let me tell you - less then half the ones I submitted raw in the past 6 months have been regraded 65 or higher - and the one's that come back MS64
are better then those 20 doggies I was using in my example !!!!!!!
Stewart, I feel your pain. PCGS seems to have trouble grading some of the Flying Eagle varieties. The missing wingtip might be misinterpreted by the grader if he hasn't seen many examples of the variety.
At any rate, here is a picture of my 1857 DDO S-4. Incidentally, I think it's the plate coin in Rick's 2001 book. It's graded MS64, but I think it deserves at least a plus.
I take the bottom 20 Franklins from my hoard of 150 PCGS 1954 MS 65 FBL 's , these are pretty doggie , lackluster, hazed, poor eye appealing coins ........ ( bought by me 15 to 20 years ago ...... when I bought the holder an' not the coin )
I submit them in the holders for regrade : how many you think are going to get downgraded ?
Now I take those same 20 PCGS MS 65 FBL piggish looking coins and crack them all out and submitt them raw ,...... how many of them you think will get downgraded ?
I would be willing to bet the slabbed regrades , and the number of them that get downgraded - would be FAR less then the raw ones that get whacked down .
I can say this with some authority , as I have been cracking out 1954 Franklins for many years , and resubmitting raw thru Teletrade - and let me tell you - less then half the ones I submitted raw in the past 6 months have been regraded 65 or higher - and the one's that come back MS64 are better then those 20 doggies I was using in my example !!!!!!! >>
I'd like to disagree with this but I can't. I believe you are correct, unfortunately. Lance.
<< <i>Has anyone ever submitted a PCGS Secure coin in the holder and got an upgrade ? Not to my knowledge
Yes many times over. How many times do we have to say this?
Don - the above quote seems to contradict your previous quote earlier in this thread - "Anyone who cracks out a coin knows full well that all guarantees are voided".
No, there is no change in the PCGS guarantee. If you crack a coin out, you lose the guarantee. That much is black and white. On the other hand I intend to defend the integrity of our Secure Plus process which seems to be in question here which is particularly strange since the coin was deliberately not submitted through Secure Plus.
If Stewart resubmits the coin through Secure Plus for grading we will compare the coin to the original Secure Plus image after which we will decide what to do. >>
With all due respect to Mr. Willis, there is no integrity of the SecurePlus grading until all submitted coins are scanned. I understand the benefits of the idea, but if it the execution of the idea is not complete, then the idea is almost worthless. There are too many avenues around SecurePlus and until those avenues are closed, there is little to no benefit of this submission tier.
there is no integrity of the SecurePlus grading until all submitted coins are scanned
tmot99 - I guess PCGS could count you as one of the proponents of eliminating our Standard service and processing all submissions through Secure Plus. That would undoubtably address your concerns. However there are still a lot of submitters who are not ready for such an abrupt change. Another option is for YOU to only buy coins in Secure Plus holders. That is almost as effective as the first option. Actually if you purchased only Secure Plus coins why would you care what anyone else did anyway?
In 1986 when PCGS was first started there were a lot of people who were completely against the idea of third party grading. It wasn't until potential buyers of their coins told them that they would only buy coins in PCGS holders that they came around. Today the difference in demand for uncertified coins and coins certified by PCGS is quite dramatic, both in liquidity and price.
We have elected, for the time being, to let the market be the driving force behind Secure Plus. That means you and other collectors will determine how quickly Secure Plus is not only accepted but perhaps eventually becomes a prerequisite to buying or selling a coin. Just like TPG in 1986, Secure Plus today will succeed or fail based on collector (buyer) demand - not dealer (seller) preference. The market works like a perfect machine - just follow the money. Sellers will behave exactly as they must to maximize their sales, but sellers don't control the market, buyers do.
Meanwhile PCGS will continue to add significant value to the Secure Plus service. Those who will be attending our Registry luncheon at FUN will be given first look at the latest innovations to combat coin doctoring and counterfeiting, which will only be available through Secure Plus (no additional charge). And we won't be stopping there. We have many more features planned for Secure Plus.
Thanks for your support! (and no offense was taken )
Comments
tcmitssr -
The exact number is a state secret .... but it is towards the high end of your suggestions.
---------------------
Remember - Secure Plus helps us make sure coins don't get upgraded for the wrong reasons (doctoring). We are happy to upgrade for the right reason, namely, that the coin deserves a certain grade. Our graders do try hard to give every coin the best grade it deserves.
If anything, Secure Plus is a confidence booster....... The more you know the more confident your decision making is. That pyschology is the exact opposite of what most people think when they think of Secure Plus.
Here is another thought - when a coin is resubmitted through Secure Plus as a regrade in a Secure Plus holder - don't you think that is sending a strong message that the submitter - honestly - and without screwing with the coin - thinks our graders overlooked something and really believes that the coin should upgrade. And has the confidence to send it right back in. Don't you think that makes an impression?
Secure Plus wasn't developed to hurt the good guys. It's purpose is to stop the bad guys from doing what they have always done.
What more could anyone ask. Personally, I would not expect anything from PCGS if it was my coin. I could be wrong, but Mr. Blay could be upset if he finds out his coin was tooled before the first SP submission. Seeing that he is a promoter of PCGS, I would expect PCGS will somehow keep Mr. Blay from changing his enthusiasm of PCGS. Anyone else who complains of such, is just jealous that they probably would not get the same treatment. Too bad. That's a business decision and has nothing to do with grading.
If you trust PCGS's evaluation, then this situation demonstrates how even one of the experts can mis-grade a coin. If you trust Mr. Blay, then this situation demonstrates how even PCGS can mis-grade a coin, Secure Plus or not. If you trust them both, then both conclusions can be drawn.
<< <i>"If Stewart resubmits the coin through Secure Plus for grading we will compare the coin to the original Secure Plus image after which we will decide what to do."
What more could anyone ask. Personally, I would not expect anything from PCGS if it was my coin. I could be wrong, but Mr. Blay could be upset if he finds out his coin was tooled before the first SP submission. Seeing that he is a promoter of PCGS, I would expect PCGS will somehow keep Mr. Blay from changing his enthusiasm of PCGS. Anyone else who complains of such, is just jealous that they probably would not get the same treatment. Too bad. That's a business decision and has nothing to do with grading. >>
I completely disagree with this. One of the foundations of the TPG process and what has helped make PCGS so successful is that the process is blinded, and everyone gets the same fair chance at a grade. If you change the public perception such that some parties are playing by different rules in the grading room, then all bets are off, IMO.
In the statement you quoted, I did not get the sense that SB was getting preferential treatment. It sounds to me that he is getting what anyone else would at the Secure Plus tier.
Why?
<< <i>of all the coins that have been resubmitted for a regrade while in a Secure Plus holder to date, what percentage have actually gotten an upgrade?
tcmitssr -
The exact number is a state secret .... but it is towards the high end of your suggestions.
---------------------
Remember - Secure Plus helps us make sure coins don't get upgraded for the wrong reasons (doctoring). We are happy to upgrade for the right reason, namely, that the coin deserves a certain grade. Our graders do try hard to give every coin the best grade it deserves.
If anything, Secure Plus is a confidence booster....... The more you know the more confident your decision making is. That pyschology is the exact opposite of what most people think when they think of Secure Plus.
Here is another thought - when a coin is resubmitted through Secure Plus as a regrade in a Secure Plus holder - don't you think that is sending a strong message that the submitter - honestly - and without screwing with the coin - thinks our graders overlooked something and really believes that the coin should upgrade. And has the confidence to send it right back in. Don't you think that makes an impression?
Secure Plus wasn't developed to hurt the good guys. It's purpose is to stop the bad guys from doing what they have always done. >>
At this point in time, it appears that the "End Run" is the way to go for those nasty doctors as it has now become obvious that ONLY Secure Plus submissions are scanned.
I suppose that scanning everything would close this hole but will the protests equal the current TSA scanning protests?
Personally, I don't have a problem with either since a coin should be graded on its own merits.
The name is LEE!
This is certainly NOT the case. SP is done for everything over $200K officially, those submitted for SP, and most likely any coin OVER a certain amount (say $50k). You could probably add in any coin submitted from known and suspected dr's and a random high value coin here and there. As they get more adept at doing this and speed up the process, the dollar min value will be lowered. Makes no sense to do this for every coin or any coin under $1000
Stu's coin, according to him, was only worth $5k.
This is not about money. I am a big boy. I have had my share of down grades and have had many upgrades. I believe this coin was under graded as an MS 65.
However I was under the impression that PCGS Secure grading was aimed at stopping gradeflation. If Mr. Willis is correct in his statement that more than 10% but less than 25% of PCGS Secure holders
get upgrades then there is something very unclear about stopping gradeflation.
Let's remember this coin was AT LEAST TWICE graded MS 65. Could the graders at PCGS have missed tooling twice before they rendered a grade on this coin ? I believe that PCGS and NGC both net grade coins. Perhaps Mr. Willis can elaborate on this fact.
Small spots do not bother me but dipping a coin to remove them does bother me. However PCGS and NGC and CAC believe dipping is acceptable.
Lastly what really hurts is that this coin has been in my collection for more than 10 years .
Tradedollarnut - What if one of your Trade dollars from your phenomenal set was called tooled after it was resubmitted for a grade review. I am sure you would also be crushed.
Stewart
<< <i> Tradedollarnut - What if one of your Trade dollars from your phenomenal set was called tooled after it was resubmitted for a grade review. I am sure you would also be crushed.
>>
Wellllll - first of all, the only trade dollar in my set that I'd consider cracking is the 1877 that didn't get the + it deserved when all three that I own were submitted together. And if it came back 'tooled' upon doing that, I'd look at it closely and try to decide if they were right or wrong ... then I'd shake my head and give the coin to Laura to resubmit ad nauseum until it was back in the MS65 holder. Those extra 2 or 3 submissions are just the price of playing the game.
<< <i>This is not about money. I am a big boy. I have had my share of down grades and have had many upgrades. I believe this coin was under graded as an MS 65.
However I was under the impression that PCGS Secure grading was aimed at stopping gradeflation. If Mr. Willis is correct in his statement that more than 10% but less than 25% of PCGS Secure holders
get upgrades then there is something very unclear about stopping gradeflation.
Let's remember this coin was AT LEAST TWICE graded MS 65. Could the graders at PCGS have missed tooling twice before they rendered a grade on this coin ? I believe that PCGS and NGC both net grade coins. Perhaps Mr. Willis can elaborate on this fact.
Small spots do not bother me but dipping a coin to remove them does bother me. However PCGS and NGC and CAC believe dipping is acceptable.
Lastly what really hurts is that this coin has been in my collection for more than 10 years .
Tradedollarnut - What if one of your Trade dollars from your phenomenal set was called tooled after it was resubmitted for a grade review. I am sure you would also be crushed.
Stewart >>
Secure Plus aims to stem gradeflation which results from physical alteration of the coin [trying to play tool em 'n fool em] and not necessarily that which results from a simple difference of opinion.
Wondercoin
any coin $200k or over must be SP
any other coin could be SP if the user asks for it and pays for it.
It is my opinion that PCGS also SP scans coins over a certain limit (say $50k) and coins from suspected dr's. This limits their future liability
As time passes and PCGS gets more adept at the procedure, they will lower the $200k mark to some lower number. Eventually all coins over some nominal amount (say $10k) will get SP scanned.
As a collector if I had high value coins (say over $10k) I would want them SP scanned for insurance purposes (I think you get a 10% insurance deduction)
edit to fix typo of $200k
My mistake was assuming the Express tier got SP automatically.
Wondercoin
<< <i>
<< <i> Tradedollarnut - What if one of your Trade dollars from your phenomenal set was called tooled after it was resubmitted for a grade review. I am sure you would also be crushed. >>
Wellllll - first of all, the only trade dollar in my set that I'd consider cracking is the 1877 that didn't get the + it deserved when all three that I own were submitted together. And if it came back 'tooled' upon doing that, I'd look at it closely and try to decide if they were right or wrong ... then I'd shake my head and give the coin to Laura to resubmit ad nauseum until it was back in the MS65 holder. Those extra 2 or 3 submissions are just the price of playing the game. >>
Stress? Who needs it.
<< <i>Secure Plus aims to stem gradeflation which results from physical alteration of the coin [trying to play tool em 'n fool em] and not necessarily that which results from a simple difference of opinion. >>
One thing has been left unsaid by me and others, but I will say it.
People out there are afraid that once a coin is recognized by PCGS whether in a SP detection or by submitting in a graded holder is that the "current and known" grade will influence a regrade.
I acknowledge these people are human and can be influenced.
But they also see a lot of coins day in and day out. Current(?) grading standards applied over a large number of coins over time will more likely influence them than seeing one coin's previous grade.
I would also say that seeing a current grade may also cause a knee jerk reaction: "it graded that?!?!?!"
There are lots of possibilities.
But it must be reiterated, SP grades are not locked forever.
How many times must it be said?
Well, there is a lot of misinformation that is being spread by word of mouth. That spreads faster than anything that can be posted on a web site and requires reading or time watching a video.
How about an e-mail with the subject line: "Secure Plus Grades Are Not Locked Forever"
and it seems to me from reading this thread, that there is more misinformation out there than information. And it reads to me like PCGS might benefit from continued courtship of major collectors and dealers.
Guess since PCGS called it tooled they also concluded it was a less than $2,000 coin and didn't require SP
BUT
if the submitter put a declared value of over $2,000 shouldn't it have automatically been reverted to the SP service (and an additional fee collected)?
<< <i>"...any coin $2000k or over must be SP..."
Guess since PCGS called it tooled they also concluded it was a less than $2,000 coin and didn't require SP
BUT
if the submitter put a declared value of over $2,000 shouldn't it have automatically been reverted to the SP service (and an additional fee collected)?
I believe that listed $2000 or over figure is missing one or more zeros.
I think the poster meant $200k or $200,000
fee schedule again
Look under the second from the left column -- "PCGS standard fee," and the adjacent one to the right -- "PCGS Secure Plus Fee"
since the maximum coin value is $100,000 for the highest "PCGS standard fee" service level of "Walk-Through," then any coin over $100,000 must be through the SP service. The same amount applies for Show and Show Express, too.
===================================================
SP FAQ
I did find 2 interesting tidbits...
41. Q: Are both sides of the coin scanned? Or only the obverse?
DW: We've done it both ways. We decided just to scan the obverse.
52. Q: If a coin doctor only messed with the reverse, the process wouldn't detect it? Or am I missing something?
DW: Think about it. If a coin grades higher than before, the Verifier will be looking at it very closely. We can always scan both sides if we want to.
So, the IF the scan could be used for "alteration" confirmation, it would only be useful on the obverse. They don't scan the reverse.
===================================================================================================
And this
81. Q: I have heard in the past that Regrades are cracked out by PCGS and regraded with the graders not having knowledge of the prior grade. Is this also true for Secure Plus Regrades? If I submit a coin for Secure Plus in an MS64 holder that is super high-end, borderline MS65, will the graders have the knowledge that it was in an MS64 holder, and use that information in their decision whether to call it an MS64+ or an MS65?
DW: Your understanding of how Regrades work is correct. It works exactly the same way for Secure Plus. The graders will grade the coin whatever it is, with no knowledge of what is was previously.
I suppose a curious grader could look up the info, or for a unique coin the grader may know it already(anyone going to suggest drugging them?).... but DW says the coins are cracked in-house then graded without knowledge of the previous grade.
<< <i>of all the coins that have been resubmitted for a regrade while in a Secure Plus holder to date, what percentage have actually gotten an upgrade?
tcmitssr -
The exact number is a state secret .... but it is towards the high end of your suggestions.
---------------------
Remember - Secure Plus helps us make sure coins don't get upgraded for the wrong reasons (doctoring). We are happy to upgrade for the right reason, namely, that the coin deserves a certain grade. Our graders do try hard to give every coin the best grade it deserves.
If anything, Secure Plus is a confidence booster....... The more you know the more confident your decision making is. That pyschology is the exact opposite of what most people think when they think of Secure Plus.
Here is another thought - when a coin is resubmitted through Secure Plus as a regrade in a Secure Plus holder - don't you think that is sending a strong message that the submitter - honestly - and without screwing with the coin - thinks our graders overlooked something and really believes that the coin should upgrade. And has the confidence to send it right back in. Don't you think that makes an impression?
Secure Plus wasn't developed to hurt the good guys. It's purpose is to stop the bad guys from doing what they have always done. >>
Don,
Again, I have nothing but the highest regard and respect for you and, I believe, it adds to your respect that you are always willing to address these issues in a forums where "Lions vs. Christians," more often than it should be....is the sport of the day.
I ask because I ***BELIEVE*** in Secure Plus, WAY over "beans," as my toned classic commem set is so richly toned as to what the PCGS sniffer test(s) to assure everyone that no games were played when I bought my coins. I know they are real and I bought them from the industry leaders (including a coin company run by a Mr. David Hall) who are also highly respected for knowing coins and grading at the highest levels.
....and yet, I submitted two coins (currently resubmitted and in your corporate hands, right now) that three experts whose names would definitely impress and mean "it's got to be true," said both were sure upgrades from PCGS 65 to PCGS 66. Both came back the first time from Secure Plus as MS 65, not even a plus. As your answer was "the high end of my expectations," that's when I scratch what little hair I have left and go "huh?" When Misters: Shepherd, Mills, Hall and a select handful of other level experts all say "sure thing," and they come back in the same grade (not even a plus).....it makes me wonder.
As I am committed to putting my entire 50 piece type set in Secure Plus, I realize not all will get an upgrade or a plus. One can have coins that come out 65.669 and not make in on the Secure Plus 700 point scale. I'm good with that. Yet, when the best "eyes" in the business all say "sure thing" (essentially, in one phrase or another) and neither my Isabella or Hudson got even a plus........
I submitted both back in Baltimore, in the holder (along with 24 other commems) for Secure Plus regrades. I'd love all 24 to get a plus or an upgrade but I am a realist. Still, that two of the very best got nothing the first time around, "the high end of my expectations," which was 25 percent......just seems like it is too low to me.
I caught grief from some dealers at Baltimore who knew of my commitment to Secure Plus and told me "nobody they know have ever gotten a full point upgrade, you're better off with a green bear and I can BS to that. Secure Plus, I believe will bring my heirs more profit decades from now, I have zero doubt.
Still....that Isabella and Hudson..... I await getting them back in a couple of weeks and see if a regrade/upgrade actually occurred in either.
Thanks very much for listening!
DW: Crossovers are not accepted in PCGS Secure Plus. You can crack it out and take your chances, or stick to buying PCGS-graded coins. Same as always.
I wonder if PCGS would suggest a "grading submission" where PCGS would accept it holdered, crack it, but the coin could still BB? I could see the potential for complaints from a holder-to-BB grading attempt.
Mr. Sheppherd , Mr. Mills and Mr. Hall
unfortunately they are not current PCGS Graders ...........
But maybe your candid plea here will persuade the " finalizer" to take an extra long look at your MS 66 commems !
<< <i>
<< <i>"If Stewart resubmits the coin through Secure Plus for grading we will compare the coin to the original Secure Plus image after which we will decide what to do."
What more could anyone ask. Personally, I would not expect anything from PCGS if it was my coin. I could be wrong, but Mr. Blay could be upset if he finds out his coin was tooled before the first SP submission. Seeing that he is a promoter of PCGS, I would expect PCGS will somehow keep Mr. Blay from changing his enthusiasm of PCGS. Anyone else who complains of such, is just jealous that they probably would not get the same treatment. Too bad. That's a business decision and has nothing to do with grading. >>
I completely disagree with this. One of the foundations of the TPG process and what has helped make PCGS so successful is that the process is blinded, and everyone gets the same fair chance at a grade. If you change the public perception such that some parties are playing by different rules in the grading room, then all bets are off, IMO.
In the statement you quoted, I did not get the sense that SB was getting preferential treatment. It sounds to me that he is getting what anyone else would at the Secure Plus tier. >>
I'm not sure if we are on the same page RYK. I am not implying that he is given preferential treatment inside the grading room. I am saying that it is a PCGS business decision if they decide to do anything after the fact. For example, they may provide a credit or give a partial guarantee payment.
<< <i>tcmitssr ,
Mr. Sheppherd , Mr. Mills and Mr. Hall
unfortunately they are not current PCGS Graders ...........
But maybe your candid plea here will persuade the " finalizer" to take an extra long look at your MS 66 commems !
First, that was not my intention. If they come back, again, as a "regular 65," that will be the last time I send them in for a regrade. I'll accept the results, twice completed, and figure I have two "wow" pieces that will capture moon money in 20-30 years, regardless, although I'll be disappointed for sure because, most of all, *I* trust my grading skills enough to believe they merit a higher grade.
Plea? No, more a personal statement on the state of grading among knowledgeable people. I know how to properly grade commems. Been doing it for over 50 years, once I learned that two members from my family tree are on coins in the series. I wanted to make the point, perhaps poorly/not clearly enough, that several top people...well respected dealers who are known for selling the cream of the crop were united in their opinions but that the pros doing the actual grading...saw things differently. Grading is an art, not a science and reasonable people can, and should, agree to disagree at times.
I don't believe for a second those who say that a SP coin, once graded, will never be upgraded while in the SP holder. On the contrary, I believe that SP, ultimately, will bring more value upon resale than any "bean" of any type ever will in the years ahead. Think about it, a "wow" toner is scientifically certified to be NT, without doubt. A coin with a "bean" is someone, however respected, basically saying "a-yup" to the grade already given a coin by the number 1 grading service in the world. "Beans," IMHO, are for people who need their hands held as "collectors," and I put that in quotes because if you need a bean, I think you're not a collector at all, you're a scared investor/speculator who really doesn't know how to grade. SP, OTOH, attests that your toned coin is natural/genuine/real with no games having been played.
Regardless of the grades my coins receive, within 6 months all 50 of my type-set will be SP. Even if not one additional grade changes, I will have the peace of mind of knowing that no one will ever be able to debate whether my monsters are NT or AT. If that were the only benefit of Secure Plus, that would be good enough for me. There are far more benefits to SP and I'm convinced that any big ticket coin I ever have will, sooner rather than later, be in an SP holder.
I think you are totally confused by SP. What you really want is the Coin Sniffer technology that has not been released yet. Once your coins have been scanned and sniffed, then and only then, you get your desired result. All SP does right now is take a snapshot of your coin and keep its fingerprint in the PCGS database so that at some future point someone can say the two coins are identical and no changes have taken place since the last scan (such as tooling, whizing). Any tier service now gets you the possibility of + grades, btw
The Coin Sniffer, on the other hand, will determine if there is any foreign substance on the coin (such as putty, nose grease), if it has been AT'd, etc. So Sniffed coins are certified to be totally clean.
Here is the Press Release on Coin Sniffer: Coin Sniffer
Here is the PR on Secure Plus: Secure Plus
So if your goal is to pass along totally clean coins to your heirs and have their value increase years down the line, I think you want them Sniffed.
Please, someone correct me if I am wrong. Maybe Don can chime in.
<< <i>If you have a complete or nearly complete collection, you are being quite foolish to send in one or two at a time for regrade. Set Review is the collector's biggest weapon in the game - have the entire thing reviewed at once! The PQ coins will stand out - for either plusses or upgrades. But having the entire set there allows for the graders to get a feel for the overall quality, rather than a disjointed submission of a few at a time that gets inserted in between two other disjointed submissions. >>
Why should grading of individual coins be influenced by coins around it?
<< <i>
<< <i>If you have a complete or nearly complete collection, you are being quite foolish to send in one or two at a time for regrade. Set Review is the collector's biggest weapon in the game - have the entire thing reviewed at once! The PQ coins will stand out - for either plusses or upgrades. But having the entire set there allows for the graders to get a feel for the overall quality, rather than a disjointed submission of a few at a time that gets inserted in between two other disjointed submissions. >>
Why should grading of individual coins be influenced by coins around it? >>
Because grading is done by human beings... with human limitations and tendencies.
"The Truth From Behind The Secure Door"
My tales of the grading room experience
By ?????
Anyway, as it were; it pains me every time he says: "I'm cracking this one out", especially considering the coins I purchase and send in for grading to PCGS (not even for SP), I do for my own reason.
FC doesn't care one bit about paper or plastic. He ALWAYS buys the coin and he only uses them for trading up in his own way of collecting. He's not a bit into plastic. It actually impresses me on the one side.
To each their own. I'm not to judge, but I feel the pain of the "crack-out".
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>If you have a complete or nearly complete collection, you are being quite foolish to send in one or two at a time for regrade. Set Review is the collector's biggest weapon in the game - have the entire thing reviewed at once! The PQ coins will stand out - for either plusses or upgrades. But having the entire set there allows for the graders to get a feel for the overall quality, rather than a disjointed submission of a few at a time that gets inserted in between two other disjointed submissions. >>
Why should grading of individual coins be influenced by coins around it? >>
Never heard of classical/operant conditioning? Dealers/submitters refer to the whole thing as setup coins.
<< <i>Why should grading of individual coins be influenced by coins around it?
Because grading is done by human beings... with human limitations and tendencies. >>
So, too, is medical diagnosis, but do you tell that to your doctor when he misdiagnoses you? We hold professionals to higher standards. This is no professional who can't grade a coin just because it's in a pile of coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>Why should grading of individual coins be influenced by coins around it?
Because grading is done by human beings... with human limitations and tendencies. >>
So, too, is medical diagnosis, but do you tell that to your doctor when he misdiagnoses you? We hold professionals to higher standards. This is no professional who can't grade a coin just because it's in a pile of coins. >>
I doubt that a doctor sees a roll of 20 patients for 5-10 seconds each and makes his diagnosis from that.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Why should grading of individual coins be influenced by coins around it?
Because grading is done by human beings... with human limitations and tendencies. >>
So, too, is medical diagnosis, but do you tell that to your doctor when he misdiagnoses you? We hold professionals to higher standards. This is no professional who can't grade a coin just because it's in a pile of coins. >>
I doubt that a doctor sees a roll of 20 patients for 5-10 seconds each and makes his diagnosis from that. >>
Well, now I'm curious. Is it that you fail to agree with my premise that professionals are held to higher standards than non-professionals, or is it that you failed to have grasped that was my premise?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Why should grading of individual coins be influenced by coins around it?
Because grading is done by human beings... with human limitations and tendencies. >>
So, too, is medical diagnosis, but do you tell that to your doctor when he misdiagnoses you? We hold professionals to higher standards. This is no professional who can't grade a coin just because it's in a pile of coins. >>
I doubt that a doctor sees a roll of 20 patients for 5-10 seconds each and makes his diagnosis from that. >>
Well, now I'm curious. Is it that you fail to agree with my premise that professionals are held to higher standards than non-professionals, or is it that you failed to have grasped that was my premise? >>
Neither, just that in spite of those higher standards professionals can and do disagree.
<< <i>This is not about money. I am a big boy. I have had my share of down grades and have had many upgrades. I believe this coin was under graded as an MS 65.
However I was under the impression that PCGS Secure grading was aimed at stopping gradeflation. If Mr. Willis is correct in his statement that more than 10% but less than 25% of PCGS Secure holders
get upgrades then there is something very unclear about stopping gradeflation.
Let's remember this coin was AT LEAST TWICE graded MS 65. Could the graders at PCGS have missed tooling twice before they rendered a grade on this coin ? I believe that PCGS and NGC both net grade coins. Perhaps Mr. Willis can elaborate on this fact.
Small spots do not bother me but dipping a coin to remove them does bother me. However PCGS and NGC and CAC believe dipping is acceptable.
Lastly what really hurts is that this coin has been in my collection for more than 10 years.
Tradedollarnut - What if one of your Trade dollars from your phenomenal set was called tooled after it was resubmitted for a grade review. I am sure you would also be crushed.
Stewart >>
I'd have thought this was about the loss in value associated with the downgrade to "Genuine" on this particular coin. As I see it, now, it's rather about making a statement as to the inconsistency of the graders. As far as that goes, let's remember the standards these professionals are grading by. Namely, those are "market grading" standards. I can understand how they can, from time to time, make "mistakes." I'd think anybody can. I'll tell you this, though, they'll do that much less often than non-professionals.
Bottom-line, do you want to play the game? Just deal with it, Stewart. Expect them to make you right, when you've got a case. That's one thing you can, realistically, hold them to. It's unrealistic to hold them to never making mistakes, though.
Hell, they're not like me...perfect.
<< <i>If you have a complete or nearly complete collection, you are being quite foolish to send in one or two at a time for regrade. Set Review is the collector's biggest weapon in the game - have the entire thing reviewed at once! The PQ coins will stand out - for either plusses or upgrades. But having the entire set there allows for the graders to get a feel for the overall quality, rather than a disjointed submission of a few at a time that gets inserted in between two other disjointed submissions. >>
Bingo. That is exactly my game plan. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
send in 20 coins at once and if the grading is ultra tight that day ; you get massacred
and are out the few hundred in grading fee's
He does if he's an HMO doc
<< <i>pro's and con's of each method ;
send in 20 coins at once and if the grading is ultra tight that day ; you get massacred
and are out the few hundred in grading fee's >>
You only get massacred if you crack them out, and I don't think that's what TDN is suggesting.
those days where we all thought a regrade coin could not receive a lower grade appear to be gone .
I find it a grey area , because if the previous grade is unknown to the graders ( on a re-submittal in the holder ) , and their in a real tight mood -
then theoretically all your coins could still downgrade ........ but that seems not to be what happens .
Seems to me , the new lower graded coin gets put back to the orig. grade ( after checking the orig. slab grade ) before encapsulation .......
On the other hand , the grading guarantee could kick in if new grade is lower, but that doz little good if you just submitted 20 of your best coins .......
and of course as I said , this is a grey area - because as we all know ; many coins have grades that change like a ping-pong ball when repeatedly submitted ,
yet to get grades back on regrades that were already slabbed ,........... that are lower , - seems to be pretty rare .
for example :
I take the bottom 20 Franklins from my hoard of 150 PCGS 1954 MS 65 FBL 's ,
these are pretty doggie , lackluster, hazed, poor eye appealing coins ........ ( bought by me 15 to 20 years ago ...... when I bought the holder an' not the coin )
I submit them in the holders for regrade : how many you think are going to get downgraded ?
Now I take those same 20 PCGS MS 65 FBL piggish looking coins and crack them all out and submitt them raw ,...... how many of them you think will get downgraded ?
I would be willing to bet the slabbed regrades , and the number of them that get downgraded - would be FAR less then the raw ones that get whacked down .
I can say this with some authority , as I have been cracking out 1954 Franklins for many years , and resubmitting raw thru Teletrade -
and let me tell you - less then half the ones I submitted raw in the past 6 months have been regraded 65 or higher - and the one's that come back MS64
are better then those 20 doggies I was using in my example !!!!!!!
At any rate, here is a picture of my 1857 DDO S-4. Incidentally, I think it's the plate coin in Rick's 2001 book. It's graded MS64, but I think it deserves at least a plus.
have you the coin now in your possession ? and is it your intention to send it back to PCGS as you said you would do in the beginning of this thread ?
<< <i> for example :
I take the bottom 20 Franklins from my hoard of 150 PCGS 1954 MS 65 FBL 's , these are pretty doggie , lackluster, hazed, poor eye appealing coins ........ ( bought by me 15 to 20 years ago ...... when I bought the holder an' not the coin )
I submit them in the holders for regrade : how many you think are going to get downgraded ?
Now I take those same 20 PCGS MS 65 FBL piggish looking coins and crack them all out and submitt them raw ,...... how many of them you think will get downgraded ?
I would be willing to bet the slabbed regrades , and the number of them that get downgraded - would be FAR less then the raw ones that get whacked down .
I can say this with some authority , as I have been cracking out 1954 Franklins for many years , and resubmitting raw thru Teletrade - and let me tell you - less then half the ones I submitted raw in the past 6 months have been regraded 65 or higher - and the one's that come back MS64 are better then those 20 doggies I was using in my example !!!!!!! >>
I'd like to disagree with this but I can't. I believe you are correct, unfortunately.
Lance.
<< <i>Has anyone ever submitted a PCGS Secure coin in the holder and got an upgrade ? Not to my knowledge
Yes many times over. How many times do we have to say this?
Don - the above quote seems to contradict your previous quote earlier in this thread - "Anyone who cracks out a coin knows full well that all guarantees are voided".
No, there is no change in the PCGS guarantee. If you crack a coin out, you lose the guarantee. That much is black and white. On the other hand I intend to defend the integrity of our Secure Plus process which seems to be in question here which is particularly strange since the coin was deliberately not submitted through Secure Plus.
If Stewart resubmits the coin through Secure Plus for grading we will compare the coin to the original Secure Plus image after which we will decide what to do. >>
With all due respect to Mr. Willis, there is no integrity of the SecurePlus grading until all submitted coins are scanned. I understand the benefits of the idea, but if it the execution of the idea is not complete, then the idea is almost worthless. There are too many avenues around SecurePlus and until those avenues are closed, there is little to no benefit of this submission tier.
tmot99 - I guess PCGS could count you as one of the proponents of eliminating our Standard service and processing all submissions through Secure Plus. That would undoubtably address your concerns. However there are still a lot of submitters who are not ready for such an abrupt change. Another option is for YOU to only buy coins in Secure Plus holders. That is almost as effective as the first option. Actually if you purchased only Secure Plus coins why would you care what anyone else did anyway?
In 1986 when PCGS was first started there were a lot of people who were completely against the idea of third party grading. It wasn't until potential buyers of their coins told them that they would only buy coins in PCGS holders that they came around. Today the difference in demand for uncertified coins and coins certified by PCGS is quite dramatic, both in liquidity and price.
We have elected, for the time being, to let the market be the driving force behind Secure Plus. That means you and other collectors will determine how quickly Secure Plus is not only accepted but perhaps eventually becomes a prerequisite to buying or selling a coin. Just like TPG in 1986, Secure Plus today will succeed or fail based on collector (buyer) demand - not dealer (seller) preference. The market works like a perfect machine - just follow the money. Sellers will behave exactly as they must to maximize their sales, but sellers don't control the market, buyers do.
Meanwhile PCGS will continue to add significant value to the Secure Plus service. Those who will be attending our Registry luncheon at FUN will be given first look at the latest innovations to combat coin doctoring and counterfeiting, which will only be available through Secure Plus (no additional charge). And we won't be stopping there. We have many more features planned for Secure Plus.
Thanks for your support! (and no offense was taken