Secure Holder crack out
STEWARTBLAYNUMIS
Posts: 2,697 ✭✭✭✭
I cracked out an ms 65 Flying Eagle cent out of a PCGS Secure holder. It came back in a genuine holder (98) because of tooling or altered surfaces.
Now I have to send it back with the Secure tag stating the grade as MS 65. It will then be placed back in an MS 65 holder.
I just don't get it
Stewart Blay
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<< <i>I cracked out an ms 65 Flying Eagle cent out of a PCGS Secure holder. It came back in a genuine holder (98) because of tooling or altered surfaces.
Now I have to send it back with the Secure tag stating the grade as MS 65. It will then be placed back in an MS 65 holder.
I just don't get it
Stewart Blay >>
Once you crack out a coin, all bets are off. How do they know that a raw coin goes with a specific tag? Are they supposed to take your word for it?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Hold everything stop the presses!
I though, and maybe I am wrong, that a coin in a secure holder could always be detected if it came back to pcgs?
Is someone trying to tell us that the system is flawed?
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Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Wait a minute.
Hold everything stop the presses!
I though, and maybe I am wrong, that a coin in a secure holder could always be detected if it came back to pcgs?
Is someone trying to tell us that the system is flawed?
I thought that was the case also, aren't Secure coins imaged to be detected if submitted in the future?
from the scant data given, one would deduce that something changed
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>I cracked out an ms 65 Flying Eagle cent out of a PCGS Secure holder. It came back in a genuine holder (98) because of tooling or altered surfaces.
Now I have to send it back with the Secure tag stating the grade as MS 65. It will then be placed back in an MS 65 holder. I just don't get it
Stewart Blay >>
Doesn't work that way for me. But I'm not Stewart B.
Once you crack out a coin, whatever evidence you have of a prior grading is meaningless. PCGS defends this by saying "grading is subjective; you are paying for an opinion".
Secure Plus has the coin's fingerprint. So it won't get past SP again. The only way to get this into a non-problem PCGS holder is through the regular service. And there's no guarantee that will work.
Even if it does get graded and into a non-SP holder there is no guarantee it could move cleanly to SP. I wouldn't even try it, given the fingerprint will show it had bb'd.
Lance.
edited to add: I am assuming the IHC was in a non-SP MS65 holder, you cracked it and sent it through SP where it BB'd. Re-reading your OP I see it can be understood differently.
"I just don't get it" either
how about revealing the rest of the story?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>I cracked out an ms 65 Flying Eagle cent out of a PCGS Secure holder. >>
Why??
Proud recipient of Y.S. Award on 07/26/08.
Why play the "ace up your sleeve" right now. Just keep trying fopr the upgrade, as getting it back in the SP holder will just put you back to square one.
Empty Nest Collection
<< <i>Once you crack out a coin, all bets are off. How do they know that a raw coin goes with a specific tag? Are they supposed to take your word for it? >>
I agree. Sounds like you're going to have to resubmit under the SP service and hope the scanner doesn't detect that it's been messed with...
<< <i>Stewart,
Why play the "ace up your sleeve" right now. Just keep trying fopr the upgrade, as getting it back in the SP holder will just put you back to square one. >>
Which sounds a lot better than being in the square that he is in now.
<< <i>Wait... so do they scan all submissions, or secure plus only? If they do not scan regular submissions, then the scanning on the secure plus is less important as you essentially can get a re-grade without them knowing the grade it received last time. >>
Just a SWAG, but I'd guess that they scan ALL coins that the believe to have significant value regardless of the service level under which it was submitted.
<< <i>I cracked out an ms 65 Flying Eagle cent out of a PCGS Secure holder. It came back in a genuine holder (98) because of tooling or altered surfaces.
Now I have to send it back with the Secure tag stating the grade as MS 65. It will then be placed back in an MS 65 holder.
I just don't get it
Stewart Blay >>
If it had been scanned previously, it should have had a match in their database, unless there was a screwup or the coin changed. I wonder if the coin could have been abraded/rubbed enough in transit to have aooeared differently to the scanner. Probably a good reason not to use a flip. Could appear the same as album slide damage.
As long as their gizmo finds it to be the same coin,
Larry
POB 854
Temecula CA 92593
310-710-2869 cell
www.LSRarecoins.com
Larry@LSRarecoins.com
do you think that the secure plus fingerprinting will effectively extend PCGS's guarantee?
--Jerry
<< <i>So you submitted it under regular service so that the coin scanner wouldn't recognize it, right? Now all you have to do is resubmit under secure plus service and it will be recognized and returned to the secure plus 65 holder. --Jerry >>
That's what I was thinking.
Since it's introduction I've always wondered how this service was supposed to stop coin doctoring when there are 2 types are services. So a coin doctor can buy a secure holdered coin, crack it out, do his thing and resubmit it under regular service?
roadrunner
<< <i>The difference here being that Stewart is just not "anybody."
roadrunner >>
Exactly, which is why I tend to believe his account of what occurred. If this new "Secure" service is all it's cracked up to be, and if the coin was not altered in any fashion from the time Stewart cracked it out to the time PCGS got the coin back for regrading, then PCGS should have seen that the coin had been laser scanned previously and there had been no alterations to the coin since the original scanning. For them to come back MS-65 the first time around and Altered Surfaces the second time around is 100% inexcusable. At the very least, Stewart should be refunded his submission fees for one of his transactions with them.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
1) if you think a coin in a Secure Plus holder is undergraded all you have to do is submit it as a regrade, in the holder, and you have as good a chance of getting an upgrade as if you submit it through the Standard service. Secure Plus was not created to stop all upgrades, but to stop all upgrades on coins that had been subsequently doctored. Don't believe me? Try it, others have.
2) we have received coins that have previously been in Secure Plus holders that have beed doctored afterwards. They get body bagged. That is the point.
3) all coins sent through Secure Plus are photographed as well as scanned. If a coin that was previously sent through Secure Plus is sent in again, raw or in the holder, it will be matched via the scan and the photographs will be compared as well by the verifier.
4) If it turns out that we missed something during grading on any submission it will be covered by our guarantee. PCGS has the best guarantee in the businesss, hands down.
5) If you are buying an expensive coin Secure Plus is the best protection you can get.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
They have no way of determining the coin had been previously seen. I thought that was one of the benefits of Secure Plus, as they claim... More likely recovery if a Secure Plus coin is ever lost or stolen
Guess we'll have to wait for more information.
This is how I interpret this thread: guy (someone who we expect should know better) removes a coin from its holder, resubmits it and doesn't get the result he's expecting and now he's pissed. What's the point of this thread other than to vent?
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
If every coin submitted for Scure Plus automatically compared with the current database?
Is it done manually or via computer similar to facial recognition software?
<< <i>
If every coin submitted for Scure Plus automatically compared with the current database?
Is it done manually or via computer similar to facial recognition software? >>
It's done by computer like facial recognition software, as per one of the videos PCGS put out when they started the service.
<< <i>I cracked out an ms 65 Flying Eagle cent out of a PCGS Secure holder. It came back in a genuine holder (98) because of tooling or altered surfaces. Now I have to send it back with the Secure tag stating the grade as MS 65. It will then be placed back in an MS 65 holder. I just don't get it Stewart Blay >>
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but as I understand it, there are only two possible conclusion that can be drawn here.
1) The coin was tooled or altered after it was cracked out and resubmitted.
or
2) The coin sniffer could not detect the tooled or altered surfaces that a human grader did.
I suspect it is the latter. Don't you?
Hold everything stop the presses!
I though, and maybe I am wrong, that a coin in a secure holder could always be detected if it came back to pcgs?
Is someone trying to tell us that the system is flawed?"
BINGO! That's the whole point. Where's the supposed detection of a coin that was previously graded under the secure plus tier?
"...3) all coins sent through Secure Plus are photographed as well as scanned. If a coin that was previously sent through Secure Plus is sent in again, raw or in the holder, it will be matched via the scan and the photographs will be compared as well by the verifier..."
Then what happened? I seriously doubt Stewart did ANYTHING to the coin from the time he cracked it out until the time he resubmitted it.
There is no law that says the coin could not have changed since it was slabbed.
<< <i>Sounds to me like someone sent the coin in regular service and PCGS did not like it. You play the game and sometimes you have to pay.
There is no law that says the coin could not have changed since it was slabbed. >>
I'm not sure your thinking is exactly correct here. If the coin sniffer does not note any difference from when the coin was submitted the first time, then PCGS would be responsible for the guarantee, would they not? That is, assuming the coin has been tooled or has altered surfaces.
ps I suggest you look carefully at ecichlid's 1:11 post.
still covered by the guarantee?
<< <i>
<< <i>Sounds to me like someone sent the coin in regular service and PCGS did not like it. You play the game and sometimes you have to pay.
There is no law that says the coin could not have changed since it was slabbed. >>
I'm not sure your thinking is exactly correct here. If the coin sniffer does not note any difference from when the coin was submitted the first time, then PCGS would be responsible for the guarantee, would they not? That is, assuming the coin has been tooled or has altered surfaces. >>
Don't confuse the sniffer with the fingerprint process. The sniffer is supposed to detect substances used to doctor a coin. It is in its infancy and won't be widely deployed until 2011, earliest.
Fingerprinting is done with every Secure Plus submission. The scan made is compared to other coins on file to see if there's a match from a prior grading.
Fingerprinting is not currently done with non-SP service but many expect it will be routine down the road and the backdoor will be closed.
Lance.
<< <i>It is amazing the variety of opinions on how the techology, the process, and the pcgs guarantee works. --Jerry
ps I suggest you look carefully at ecichlid's 1:11 post. >>
Ecichild 1:11 ?
He wrote the bible on it, huh?
and they gave it a 98 over a die crack?
Where you just getting the coin out of the
secure holder or where you shooting for a regrade?
Read DW's post on page 2.
Obviously from the OP's first post, they do not scan coins submitted under non-SecurePlus or they would have caught it the second time around and e-mailed about the "tooling / altered surcafes"
>> This crackout and resub story would have ended much worse had it not been for the SecurePlus service <<
Why?
PCGS trusts the SecurePlus service enough to recognize the coin out of the cracked holder. He can submit the label, and if the coin is recognized, they can either regrade it or offer a grade guarantee.
Had it been cracked from a regular holder, he would have no recourse but to crack and resub or just leave it unholdered.
Such is the life of cracking out.
Let's just hope it was not damaged on the crackouts.
SecurePlus is a "Coin Recognition Technology Service"
That's it. (along with the more secure label)
The Humans still make the Tooled / AS / AT / etc. calls.
and I guess Regular Service resubs do not get SecurePlus scanning. (except maybe for the really high end stuff.)
Coin is in a Secure Plus holder so has been fingerprinted.
Coin broken out and sent for regular slabbing so does not get fingerprinted and comes back as G-Tooled.
I have to assume that Stewart did not boink the coin...I have to.
Can't Steward crack it out and send it back in raw for a Secure Plus meaning it will get fingerprinted and should match the earlier fingerprint
and get back into the 65 Secure Plus holder...again assuming Steward didn't screw around with the coin which I am fairly sure he wouldn't?
If that were to happen what would happen to the tooling description?
I'm confused.
I too find the Secure Plus platform to be confusing.
If an SP coin gets returned to PCGS, my expectation is that no matter what the service tier, the coin should be recognized. Any interval alteration should be detectable, and the coin should be graded accordingly. If this is not the case, I fail to see the value of the Secure Plus tier (but that has been my position for a long time).
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700