Thankfully, Daniel Carr is using his press for good rather than evil, but what happens if it falls i
Longacre
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I was reading the latest edition of Coin World, and I see that Daniel Carr (who is a board member here) is using an old press, and he is creating proof coins (for series in which proof coins do not exist) at will. The latest installment is a proof of the 2009 SAE. These pieces have a touch of whimsy about them, with a "DC" mint mark, and we all let out a numismatic chuckle when we witness these coins d'caprice on the bourse floor.
However, I started to think about what would happen if this press fell into the wrong hands, and rather than being used for good, it was being used for evil? I can see that with the right die engravers on staff, people could take real coins, and then restrike them to create either proof versions, or less circulated versions.
Is this possible, or are the populations of classic coins and related grades so generally known that it is not really possible to strike a few extra proofs or uncirculateds (without distinguishing marks) that the market wouldn't notice?
However, I started to think about what would happen if this press fell into the wrong hands, and rather than being used for good, it was being used for evil? I can see that with the right die engravers on staff, people could take real coins, and then restrike them to create either proof versions, or less circulated versions.
Is this possible, or are the populations of classic coins and related grades so generally known that it is not really possible to strike a few extra proofs or uncirculateds (without distinguishing marks) that the market wouldn't notice?
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
0
Comments
Others may disagree.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
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Empty Nest Collection
<< <i>Hmmm...your title is your opinion.
Others may disagree. >>
Yes, they may.
<< <i>There are countless presses in machine shops all over this country and the world. There is nothing special about one that was used at the mint. It is the dies that make the coin. I am simply amazed at the way people throw around opinions as if they were facts, but are simply unfounded beliefs not backed by anything more than emotion. Grow up. Cheers, RickO >>
Well said.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Letter to editor in current issue of Coin World praises Carr's 2009 "proofed" ASE and 64-D Peace as fantasies, not copies.
I agree!
AL
while (hopefully) most of us can talk about the middle. I do not believe that Dan Carr broke into the
Denver Mint and stole the press -- it is much more likely that the mint sold a used press as scrap or something
similar.
As for the press falling into "the wrong hands", not too much to worry about there. I think anyone
can purchase one from the manufacturer. As has been previously stated, skill with die production is the
main concern, as the needed supplies for making dies are also readily available.
Perhaps in a hundred years Dan Carr's pieces will be as collectible as Machin's Mills counterfeits (see the
Whitman Encyclopedia of Colonial and Early American Coins for more information.)
--Jerry
<< <i>Mr. Carr is an artist, expressing his art in metal discs. I see nothing wrong with what he is doing. >>
When making his Ameros or the man on the moon "two rollers" patterns, yes, he is an artist expressing are in metal discs. When he makes "proofed" 2009 ASEs or 1964-D Peace Dollars, he has crossed into other territory.
You have to be joking....
<< <i>There are countless presses in machine shops all over this country and the world. There is nothing special about one that was used at the mint. It is the dies that make the coin. I am simply amazed at the way people throw around opinions as if they were facts, but are simply unfounded beliefs not backed by anything more than emotion. Grow up. Cheers, RickO >>
Quite correct Ricko! Anybody with enough money can buy one of these presses.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>Mr. Carr is an artist, expressing his art in metal discs. I see nothing wrong with what he is doing. >>
When making his Ameros or the man on the moon "two rollers" patterns, yes, he is an artist expressing are in metal discs. When he makes "proofed" 2009 ASEs or 1964-D Peace Dollars, he has crossed into other territory. >>
Yes he has.
It's called "over-strike" territory.
The name is LEE!
so much to agree with.
So far, the finishes on these coins are not close to either the uncirculated or proof.
Also, re-pressed coins over coins have had remnants of the previous coins features left behind.
So, to put it simply, even Mr. Carr is not a good counterfeiter.
It seems the fake chinese trade dollars are better fakes than the fake carr peace dollars.
Thus, it seems those with evil intent appear to have most of what they need already. (maybe they could use more die counterfeiting skills)
<< <i>Carr's former Denver Mint coin press is made by Gräbener, in Germany, so take it up with them.
Letter to editor in current issue of Coin World praises Carr's 2009 "proofed" ASE and 64-D Peace as fantasies, not copies. >>
That is just their opinion, not facts.
<< <i>Thankfully, Daniel Carr is using his press for good rather than evil, but what happens if it falls into the wrong hands?
You have to be joking.... >>
Tongue planted firmly in cheek....
<< <i>
<< <i>Carr's former Denver Mint coin press is made by Gräbener, in Germany, so take it up with them.
Letter to editor in current issue of Coin World praises Carr's 2009 "proofed" ASE and 64-D Peace as fantasies, not copies. >>
That is just their opinion, not facts.
Opinions are what is driving this whole discussion, even those disguised as facts.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
MsMorrisine is wrong on this issue. I assure you, if Mr. Carr wanted to create a counterfeit coin to fool you, he most easily could. All he would have to do is strike on a regular blank, with normal striking pressure and most would be fooled with their best loupe. I'm sure MsMorrisine means to insult Mr. Carr, but instead comes across as emotional, with no basis in fact.
<< <i>So far, the finishes on these coins are not close to either the uncirculated or proof. >>
I think these are quite close to the look of an original Peace dollar:
<< <i>Also, re-pressed coins over coins have had remnants of the previous coins features left behind. >>
Yes, usually.
<< <i>So, to put it simply, even Mr. Carr is not a good counterfeiter.
It seems the fake chinese trade dollars are better fakes than the fake carr peace dollars. >>
I'm not a counterfeiter at all - good or bad. But if I wanted to make counterfeits, I certainly wouldn't strike over existing coins to make them.
As others have said here, it isn't the coin press, but rather the dies.
If we are so concerned about ethics and the law, let's start with the basics and enforce them meaningfully before we start branching out into all of the gray areas in an inconsequential witch hunt.
Sheesh.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>.....I too have often laid in bed unable to sleep thinking about what would happen if a Nuclear Bomb fell into the wrong hands >>
The most frequent advice I give to my kids, friends, and coworkers is not to EVER worry about things you have no control over. --Jerry
As an aside, none of the host coins on ANY of my '64-D Daniel Carr 'overstrikes' show any sign of doubling, image from host coin, however you wish to put it. And the 'bulk handled' 'overstrike'....man, looks like any regular Peace dollar, and my Dansco is full of white MS63-MS65 examples (the '28 and '34-S are high AU). If there were an extra whole in my Dansco.........j/k...PLEASE don't take that part seriously.
<< <i>How a private party can purchase for personal use a Denver Mint coin press is the bigger issue here. Really, what's to stop DC from minting other so-called fantasy coins? Sad thing is, that many of the same forum members who decry the flow of Chinese counterfiets into the country rally to support Mr. Carr and proudly buy his products. In my opinion, any time a Denver Mint coin press is is the hands of anyone outside of the US mint, its in the wrong hands. >>
There are hundreds of thousands of metal presses in use worldwide, and dozens of manufacturers. Anyone can buy one.
<< <i>
So, to put it simply, even Mr. Carr is not a good counterfeiter.
>>
That's really uncalled for. Mr. Carr designed the New York and Rhode Island state quarters, and is kind enough to
take the time to post on this message board. Yet some insult him and treat him like a criminal.
The 1964-D Peace dollar is
a novelty made from a genuine coin, so it's not a counterfeit. And the government
can't charge him with failing to mark it COPY while claiming at the same time that
none exist.
I ordered one because I think it's fun to have and show, and even at $125 now, I
appreciate the artistic and technical effort that gives it that hard-to-describe "just
right" look.
<< <i>You could probably sell that press to china for a mint.
<< <i>
<< <i>.....I too have often laid in bed unable to sleep thinking about what would happen if a Nuclear Bomb fell into the wrong hands >>
The most frequent advice I give to my kids, friends, and coworkers is not to EVER worry about things you have no control over. --Jerry >>
Jerry ,
that's good advice - but isn't there something Mr. Longacre could do to save us all from Mr. Carr's press falling into the hands of some sinister ,evil, bad handed person ?
<< <i>
So, to put it simply, even Mr. Carr is not a good counterfeiter.
That's really uncalled for. Mr. Carr designed the New York and Rhode Island state quarters, and is kind enough to
take the time to post on this message board. >>
Not that I promote rudeness, but I'm not sure where these qualifications puts anyone on a pedestal.
Perhaps I should have phrased it differently.
If people are calling his work counterfeits, then by the looks of them, they are not good counterfeits. They are obvious copies and the most distinguishing characteristic is the finish for both. There are better fake trade dollars. No insult to his efforts, that's just the way it is.
<< <i>
<< <i>
So, to put it simply, even Mr. Carr is not a good counterfeiter.
That's really uncalled for. Mr. Carr designed the New York and Rhode Island state quarters, and is kind enough to
take the time to post on this message board. >>
Not that I promote rudeness, but I'm not sure where these qualifications puts anyone on a pedestal. >>
I agree.....those designs are not worthy of worshipping anyone or putting them on a pedestal. And, I am sure that MsMorrisine didn't mean it as a slam, but rather as to state that Carr wasn't trying to counterfeit his ripoff items (ripoff of real designs like the SAEs and Peace Dollars) because what he did produce is what he wanted to produce and they can be distinguished by KNOWEDGEABLE people from the real things (although, most likely, no distinguished from the real thing by non-knowledgeable folks)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>I'm a purchaser of his products.
Perhaps I should have phrased it differently.
If people are calling his work counterfeits, then by the looks of them, they are not good counterfeits. They are obvious copies and the most distinguishing characteristic is the finish for both. There are better fake trade dollars. No insult to his efforts, that's just the way it is. >>
You are disregardful of intent.
<< <i>I think if he had intent, he could have put a better finish on the 64Ds that is less satin finish and more smooth finish.... just not as smooth as the proof-ed ASEs. Even the higher luster strikes still don't have the smooth fields of a business strike. Yet, he made the proof-ed ASEs pretty mirrored (but even then, not as much as the real thing.... then there's the whole lack of frosting on the devices thing... they're more DMPL than PRDC) >>
Did you miss the part of the thread where he posted images of real Peace Dollars side-by-side with his own to showcase how realistic the finish was of his coins? Other peoples intent is not something to opine about. Especially if stated.
-D
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
<< <i>So, to put it simply, even Mr. Carr is not a good counterfeiter. >>
He's does not appear to be trying or intending to be a counterfeiter, good or bad.
<< <i>
<< <i>That's really uncalled for. Mr. Carr designed the New York and Rhode Island state quarters, and is kind enough to take the time to post on this message board. >>
Not that I promote rudeness, but I'm not sure where these qualifications puts anyone on a pedestal. >>
The accomplishments do provide a degree of pedigree that many on these boards do not have.