just ask your self 1 question and you will have your answer....Do you want to be a collector or an investor...
That is of course you want to be a coin collector and not plastic collector.
That picture frame logic is lost on someone that wants to enjoy the COIN no plastic ever enhanced the look of a coin only detracts 100% of the time.....
like that beautiful coin you posted the other day,,,, only to tell someone to look at the size of the holding prongs... to figure out what denomination she was
those prongs sure made she look better....NOT
BUT as the smart collector/investor no one wants to lose dollars do they........
MJ Quick, can you name which coins in your collection are in SecurePlus holders? I knew I had a few but I had to go look at my images to see wHich coins they are. All it tells me is the dealer I bought them from or someone before them thought enough of the coin to submit it for SecurePlus. I still think that neither you nor Robert would pass on a coin because it's in a SecurePlus holder without a +. And you should give other prospective purchasers more credit. JMHO and reasonable minds can differ.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Would I buy one in a Secure Plus non plus holder? Yes, But probably not at a premium and I think that's the possible taboo.....................MJ
edited to add I would rather go this route. Two independent opinions.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
My advice would be to get these coins out of the SP holders and into non-SP holders. Why? Because some folks might perceive that the coins are less than solid for the grade if they are in an SP holder without + designation. This has nothing to do with buying the coin rather than the holder and everything to do with acknowledging market realities and dynamics. Those who claim you are no longer enjoying your coins with this strategy or that you have become a slave to the insert, designation or registry either have not read and comprehended the core question within the thread or have their heads buried in the sand.
Those are beauties, beyond doubt and regardless of the holder. But as an example, one of my coins in a SecurePlus holder I bought on approval from one of my favorite dealers and was thrilled with it when it arrived. I'm not even sure I noticed for more than a second that it was in a SecurePlus holder. I certainly didn't ask for any refund or price slash because of it. And yes, like you, I value CAC. It may be I am just not thinking clearly enough about selling someday. In any event, here's the coin, which I realize is rather common in 68:
Now this is all in good fun and please don't mistake me for Sparty (okay I couldn't help myself!)
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
I can't speak for anyone else, but if I like the coin and think it's outstanding for the grade, I'll pay a premium for it. Period. I don't care what the holder or sticker says, or how much the seller has spent on grading or related fees.
I won't buy a coin if I don't think I know how to grade it. I also will get the blessing of a second set of eyes who knows at least as much about grading the coin as I do.
Imo too many people are using the slab, bean, plus, etc. as a crutch for knowing how to grade the coin. It is convenient for an investor to use these items to "check off the boxes" when it comes to buying a coin without knowing how to grade it. Some people build expensive registry sets this way. If that's what they want to do, that is their choice.
When it comes to selling a coin, I get my price or I don't. I keep things simple. My primary focus in numismatics is buying nice coins for the grade and occasionally selling them for various reasons. I'll put more hours in at the office if my primary focus is making more money. Unless you're an error guy, given the buy / sell spread on coins, you're behind the eight ball from the get-go.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Beautiful Norfolk!!!! A 68 maybe a different animal. It generally doesn't get to much better then that. Sparty? arrggghhh.....ggrrrrrrr. I hate green except for stickers. MJ
We got our butts kicked fair and square
Elcontador- I hear you I really do. However, marketing has invaded the slab market. When it comes time to sell one needs all the tools at their disposal. Fine lines can add up to dollars and cents on both the buy and sell side.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>My advice would be to get these coins out of the SP holders and into non-SP holders. Why? Because some folks might perceive that the coins are less than solid for the grade if they are in an SP holder without + designation. This has nothing to do with buying the coin rather than the holder and everything to do with acknowledging market realities and dynamics. Those who claim you are no longer enjoying your coins with this strategy or that you have become a slave to the insert, designation or registry either have not read and comprehended the core question within the thread or have their heads buried in the sand. >>
I think that you have stated my point better than I could.
<I think that you have stated my point better than I could.>
He does that to me as well
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Being in a Secure Plus holder without a "+" is what CAC would be like if they had a brown bean. There's a reason why they don't have brown beans >>
I disagree. A plus coin is much different that a CAC coin. A coin in a secure holder without a plus sign means it was not considered in the top end of the grade. That does not mean it is not fairly graded. A coin without a green bean (if you know it has been submitted to CAC) means it is in the bottom third. I buy plenty of coins in secure holders. I know it is not a plus, and it is what it is. Not many coins are. That's the whole idea. it does mean someone thought enough of it to try and plus it (most times). So I actually pay the coins in plus holders even more attention. Besides, what happen to buy the coin and not the holder?
MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
Being in a Secure Plus holder without a "+" is what CAC would be like if they had a brown bean. There's a reason why they don't have brown beans >>
I disagree. A plus coin is much different that a CAC coin. A coin in a secure holder without a plus sign means it was not considered in the top end of the grade. That does not mean it is not fairly graded. A coin without a green bean (if you know it has been submitted to CAC) means it is in the bottom third. I buy plenty of coins in secure holders. I know it is not a plus, and it is what it is. Not many coins are. That's the whole idea. it does mean someone thought enough of it to try and plus it (most times). So I actually pay the coins in plus holders even more attention. Besides, what happen to buy the coin and not the holder? >>
You seem to be basing the discussion on percentages; however this is less about percentages than that in one case, the coin isn't marked as not being high-end while in another case it is marked as not being high-end. You seem to be okay with a non-plus coin but there are those collectors that will pay less for one.
"Buy the coin and not the holder" is still in effect.
This is all about "buy the coin and sell the holder" per RYK and others.
I have decided, at this point, not to resubmit the coins. All are core coins in my collection, and I doubt that they will be sold in the near future. I felt the sense of urgency only because PCGS is in town. Had I to do it over again, I would have left the coins in their previous holders.
I submitted a coin for regrade into a Security Plus holder. It jumped a whole point. Does this mean it will be stigmatized because it didn't get the lesser "+"?
I can understand where RYK is coming from as I submitted one of my favorite coins for the quarterly special, thinking that this is one of my most eye appealing coins - surely it would merit a plus. When it returned sans a plus I did somehow have an illogical emotional reaction to the coin now being in a secure plus holder without the actual +. Almost like it was only a so so AU58, when I truly felt it should have been considered in the top 15%. Now mind you for my coin I had actually seen almost all of the high end 60-S seated halves and had owned others so to imagine my coin sitting next to a bunch of others and feeling it was not one of the top ones was bothersome.
I also feel that the holder does take away a slight pricing premium from the coin for those imagining it as an automatic plus coin to pay a premium for a future submission, much as an old green holder holds that allure and mystique. Now the mystery is gone so to speak.
In any case does it bother me - YES, just like the RYK art in a bad picture frame analogy. Would I spend the money at this time to regrade, or crack it and grade non secure plus, etc.... NO. If I was going to sell, then perhaps, but even then I don't think the price premium would be worth the time, and money for a coin in this price range.
I just decided to live with it, I love the coin, not the holder, now I know what I know and I won't send any other coins in for secureplus holdering at this point. However, I do think the scanning/fingerprinting does add some value to the process, but just not as much value as is knocked off for losing the mystique of a possible +!
I have submitted two coins recently just to get them into the condition census, and into SP holders. I would be lying if I said that a plus is meaningless to me, but that is not why I resubmitted them. Coins speak for themselves whether or not they have a plus. But the Secure part... that, my friend is worth something.
Look, don't buy the holder. And just because the coin lacks a plus on the label or a sticker on the holder has nothing to do with whether or not it is high end for the grade. If you've been looking at a lot of coins, you should darn well know what's high end!!
This coin was originally graded by PCGS as MS66FB. I resubmitted it under the secure plus quarterly special to see if I could get the plus. It didn't plus. However, this coin is very eye appealing with very nice luster and nice original toning. I would think that most high end collectors of Mercury Dimes, would have no problem having this coin in their collection.
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
I initially thought that I wouldn't want any of my coins in a non-plus SecurePlus holder because they may get looked down upon and lose some value in the market.
However, I've changed my mind on that over the past few months or so. I think people are finally starting to see that PCGS doesn't just hand out the + grades to every nice looking coin for the grade and really is saving them for the coins that are very high end for the grade and that are just missing the next grade. Since they aren't handing them out like crazy, I don't see the non-plus SecurePlus coins being treated as inferior. Sure, there is somewhat of a perception that the coin is locked in its grade and can't get a plus now, but that isn't true. I have heard a few stories of SecurePlus coins going in for regrade and then getting a plus or even a full point upgrade upon a regrade. Moreover, since PCGS now gives plus grades to coins in regular blue-label holders, a buyer also doesn't know whether those coins in a regular holders have been tried for a plus already. Like others have mentioned, the Secure part of SecurePlus is also pretty important to some of us as it can reassure the collector (and the market) that the coin hasn't been doctored. I also think that a coin in a SecurePlus holder is a good buy as you know it has been recently graded and my perception is that the graders have been a lot tighter recently than they may have been at certain times in the past.
Accordingly, my 1909 Mint Set has been in at PCGS for pedigree labeling and SecurePlus regrading for a few weeks... should get back the results any day now, but I won't be looking down on the coins that aren't worthy of the plus designation and I don't expect the market to do so either when/if the time comes for me to sell.
I attended the "big one" meeting in Fort Worth in March. David Hall explained that the + designation would statistically apply to 15 to 20% of coins...those that "just miss" a higher grade but still have additional value. That's what the + grades mean. That's not the same thing as a CAC sticker which means "solid for the grade" Any ideas that the gold shield Secure Plus slabs without a plus grade are inferior or low end are simply wrong. In fact, they offer the most current, careful and accurate grading and weeding out of time-bomb doctoring currently possible.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
I attended the "big one" meeting in Fort Worth in March. David Hall explained that the + designation would statistically apply to 15 to 20% of coins...those that "just miss" a higher grade but still have additional value. That's what the + grades mean. That's not the same thing as a CAC sticker which means "solid for the grade" Any ideas that the gold shield Secure Plus slabs without a plus grade are inferior or low end are simply wrong. In fact, they offer the most current, careful and accurate grading and weeding out of time-bomb doctoring currently possible.
Frank is 100% correct.
You can still resub a Secure Plus for a regrade.....
MsMorrisine is 100% correct.
There are a few other very insightful posts in this thread. Don't forget the purpose of Secure Plus was to fight coin doctoring. Soon we will be introducing more features and Secure Plus is where we will take on the counterfeitors.
3) All coins graded since August 1st have been eligible for a Plus grade.......
A regular holdered PCGS can and does occasionally get the "+" as well. If you are playing registry games, then go ahead trade-in for a "+" coin. But otherwise I don't think a Non-plussed coin is a detrimental grade.
Comments
just ask your self 1 question and you will have your answer....Do you want to be a collector or an investor...
That is of course you want to be a coin collector and not plastic collector.
That picture frame logic is lost on someone that wants to enjoy the COIN no plastic ever enhanced the look of a coin
only detracts 100% of the time.....
like that beautiful coin you posted the other day,,,, only to tell someone to look at the size of the holding prongs...
to figure out what denomination she was
those prongs sure made she look better....NOT
BUT as the smart collector/investor no one wants to lose dollars do they........
Quick, can you name which coins in your collection are in SecurePlus holders? I knew I had a few but I had to go look at my images to see wHich coins they are. All it tells me is the dealer I bought them from or someone before them thought enough of the coin to submit it for SecurePlus.
I still think that neither you nor Robert would pass on a coin because it's in a SecurePlus holder without a +. And you should give other prospective purchasers more credit. JMHO and reasonable minds can differ.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
The answer: none.
Would I buy one in a Secure Plus non plus holder? Yes, But probably not at a premium and I think that's the possible taboo.....................MJ
edited to add I would rather go this route. Two independent opinions.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Those are beauties, beyond doubt and regardless of the holder. But as an example, one of my coins in a SecurePlus holder I bought on approval from one of my favorite dealers and was thrilled with it when it arrived. I'm not even sure I noticed for more than a second that it was in a SecurePlus holder. I certainly didn't ask for any refund or price slash because of it. And yes, like you, I value CAC. It may be I am just not thinking clearly enough about selling someday. In any event, here's the coin, which I realize is rather common in 68:
Now this is all in good fun and please don't mistake me for Sparty (okay I couldn't help myself!)
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
I won't buy a coin if I don't think I know how to grade it. I also will get the blessing of a second set of eyes who knows at least as much about grading the coin as I do.
Imo too many people are using the slab, bean, plus, etc. as a crutch for knowing how to grade the coin. It is convenient for an investor to use these items to "check off the boxes" when it comes to buying a coin without knowing how to grade it. Some people build expensive registry sets this way. If that's what they want to do, that is their choice.
When it comes to selling a coin, I get my price or I don't. I keep things simple. My primary focus in numismatics is buying nice coins for the grade and occasionally selling them for various reasons. I'll put more hours in at the office if my primary focus is making more money. Unless you're an error guy, given the buy / sell spread on coins, you're behind the eight ball from the get-go.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
We got our butts kicked fair and square
Elcontador- I hear you I really do. However, marketing has invaded the slab market. When it comes time to sell one needs all the tools at their disposal. Fine lines can add up to dollars and cents on both the buy and sell side.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>My advice would be to get these coins out of the SP holders and into non-SP holders. Why? Because some folks might perceive that the coins are less than solid for the grade if they are in an SP holder without + designation. This has nothing to do with buying the coin rather than the holder and everything to do with acknowledging market realities and dynamics. Those who claim you are no longer enjoying your coins with this strategy or that you have become a slave to the insert, designation or registry either have not read and comprehended the core question within the thread or have their heads buried in the sand. >>
I think that you have stated my point better than I could.
He does that to me as well
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I think that you have stated my point better than I could. >>
The man is very articulate.
Same here, MJ. I am a complete PCGS homer, but I want them to be the best PCGS that they can be.
<< <i>
<< <i>The obvious pros are... are... ? >>
They wouldn't be stigmatized as non-"+" coins.
Being in a Secure Plus holder without a "+" is what CAC would be like if they had a brown bean. There's a reason why they don't have brown beans
I disagree. A plus coin is much different that a CAC coin. A coin in a secure holder without a plus sign means it was not considered in the top end of the grade. That does not mean it is not fairly graded. A coin without a green bean (if you know it has been submitted to CAC) means it is in the bottom third. I buy plenty of coins in secure holders. I know it is not a plus, and it is what it is. Not many coins are. That's the whole idea. it does mean someone thought enough of it to try and plus it (most times). So I actually pay the coins in plus holders even more attention. Besides, what happen to buy the coin and not the holder?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The obvious pros are... are... ? >>
They wouldn't be stigmatized as non-"+" coins.
Being in a Secure Plus holder without a "+" is what CAC would be like if they had a brown bean. There's a reason why they don't have brown beans
I disagree. A plus coin is much different that a CAC coin. A coin in a secure holder without a plus sign means it was not considered in the top end of the grade. That does not mean it is not fairly graded. A coin without a green bean (if you know it has been submitted to CAC) means it is in the bottom third. I buy plenty of coins in secure holders. I know it is not a plus, and it is what it is. Not many coins are. That's the whole idea. it does mean someone thought enough of it to try and plus it (most times). So I actually pay the coins in plus holders even more attention. Besides, what happen to buy the coin and not the holder? >>
You seem to be basing the discussion on percentages; however this is less about percentages than that in one case, the coin isn't marked as not being high-end while in another case it is marked as not being high-end. You seem to be okay with a non-plus coin but there are those collectors that will pay less for one.
"Buy the coin and not the holder" is still in effect.
This is all about "buy the coin and sell the holder" per RYK and others.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
I can understand where RYK is coming from as I submitted one of my favorite coins for the quarterly special, thinking that this is one of my most eye appealing coins - surely it would merit a plus. When it returned sans a plus I did somehow have an illogical emotional reaction to the coin now being in a secure plus holder without the actual +. Almost like it was only a so so AU58, when I truly felt it should have been considered in the top 15%. Now mind you for my coin I had actually seen almost all of the high end 60-S seated halves and had owned others so to imagine my coin sitting next to a bunch of others and feeling it was not one of the top ones was bothersome.
I also feel that the holder does take away a slight pricing premium from the coin for those imagining it as an automatic plus coin to pay a premium for a future submission, much as an old green holder holds that allure and mystique. Now the mystery is gone so to speak.
In any case does it bother me - YES, just like the RYK art in a bad picture frame analogy. Would I spend the money at this time to regrade, or crack it and grade non secure plus, etc.... NO. If I was going to sell, then perhaps, but even then I don't think the price premium would be worth the time, and money for a coin in this price range.
I just decided to live with it, I love the coin, not the holder, now I know what I know and I won't send any other coins in for secureplus holdering at this point. However, I do think the scanning/fingerprinting does add some value to the process, but just not as much value as is knocked off for losing the mystique of a possible +!
My signature line coin TrueView:
Seated Dollar Collection
Look, don't buy the holder. And just because the coin lacks a plus on the label or a sticker on the holder has nothing to do with whether or not it is high end for the grade. If you've been looking at a lot of coins, you should darn well know what's high end!!
Empty Nest Collection
<< <i>I still love PCGS just the same.
Same here, MJ. I am a complete PCGS homer, but I want them to be the best PCGS that they can be. >>
You can still resub a Secure Plus for a regrade.....
This is the great misunderstanding in the market.
However, I've changed my mind on that over the past few months or so. I think people are finally starting to see that PCGS doesn't just hand out the + grades to every nice looking coin for the grade and really is saving them for the coins that are very high end for the grade and that are just missing the next grade. Since they aren't handing them out like crazy, I don't see the non-plus SecurePlus coins being treated as inferior. Sure, there is somewhat of a perception that the coin is locked in its grade and can't get a plus now, but that isn't true. I have heard a few stories of SecurePlus coins going in for regrade and then getting a plus or even a full point upgrade upon a regrade. Moreover, since PCGS now gives plus grades to coins in regular blue-label holders, a buyer also doesn't know whether those coins in a regular holders have been tried for a plus already. Like others have mentioned, the Secure part of SecurePlus is also pretty important to some of us as it can reassure the collector (and the market) that the coin hasn't been doctored. I also think that a coin in a SecurePlus holder is a good buy as you know it has been recently graded and my perception is that the graders have been a lot tighter recently than they may have been at certain times in the past.
Accordingly, my 1909 Mint Set has been in at PCGS for pedigree labeling and SecurePlus regrading for a few weeks... should get back the results any day now, but I won't be looking down on the coins that aren't worthy of the plus designation and I don't expect the market to do so either when/if the time comes for me to sell.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
Frank is 100% correct.
You can still resub a Secure Plus for a regrade.....
MsMorrisine is 100% correct.
There are a few other very insightful posts in this thread. Don't forget the purpose of Secure Plus was to fight coin doctoring. Soon we will be introducing more features and Secure Plus is where we will take on the counterfeitors.
A regular holdered PCGS can and does occasionally get the "+" as well. If you are playing registry games, then go ahead trade-in for a "+" coin. But otherwise I don't think a Non-plussed coin is a detrimental grade.