<< <i>Gaaak! Fifth grade "art" class debris, and a counterfeit silver dollar. Look at the FIDEM medals if you want to see real medallic artists' work. Visit Fédération Internationale de la Médaille d'Art. [www.fidem-medals.org] >>
Rule 5) If you have nothing to contribute to an OP then do not post. Snide remarks and other negative comments will result in your losing your ability to post. No more warnings.
I think that sums it up after some of the things RWB has said about DCarr's work, especially his post on page 2, which is quoted above. For someone that has had the respect of just about everyone on these boards, he certainly sounds like someone who had his lunch money stolen by the school bully. The only thing lacking from RWB now are the words 'I'M TELLIN'!!!'. While I don't like all his (DCarr's) creations, I do love some of them. Those that I don't like, I don't call "Fifth grade "art" class debris.....". I don't demean his work I don't like in any way, shape or form, something I thought was way beneath RWB.....until now. I really don't think DCarr would just arbitrarily produce these '64-D 'Fantasy Pieces' without having done his homework first.
As Lee stated.....
<< <i>Someday, folks WILL seek this stuff out as Daniel is not just another fellow with a coining press.
After all, he has a history as a designer with the US Mint and does create some nice coins, tokens, and what nots. He's already written into Numismatic History and regardless of what occurs in the future, that history will always be there. >>
<< <i><It also came with a couple hundred dollars in gold... maybe more if the bidders thought they were collectible>
Really? How is 3.0 grams (0.1 ounce) of electroplated mixed alloy worth a couple hundred of dollars? MJ
edited to add- This was in the sellers description.
"For free, I am also including some novelty gold coins from my collection. They are: - 6 miniature St. Gaudens gold eagles. These are mixed-alloy, gold electroplated coins. They're 10mm in diameter and weigh .50 gram each. - 5 24k (.999) solid gold discs. See the photo for their relative size compared to the coins. Gold as an investment is the safest hedge against inflation and is on the rise!"
They are virtually worthless. I actually think this "add on" scared people off and kept the bidding down. >>
Darnit... too many words! I missed the "gold electroplated coins"... that's a good salesperson when you can confuse the buyer with too many words!
If not for "passion and paranoia", this thread would not have legs. Since it's chockfull of both, I'm going to have one last "run-in".
Interestingly, some of my favorite "coin guys" on the boards are: D.Carr, T. Delorey and R Burdette. All add a beautiful perspective in the coin world. Even so, the thread title itself is a violation of the rules, but who's keeping track ? Does that even matter ? ___ sees all.
Fill in the blank (that's a numismatic riddle) for Sunday, 10/10/10
I have a theory that grown men HATE this time of year. They remember how crappy it was to go back to school...summer vacation ending...getting cold...
and all through their lives they carry this deep seated grudge against later summer/early fall.
Now, we see all kinds of arguments and disagreements popping up on this otherwise erudite and peaceful forum.
Gentlemen...why not bury the hatchet? What good does pecking angrily away at the keyboard, grasping at half formed ideas of resentment and jealous rage....what good comes from this?
Just calm down. Take a deep breath and turn the computer off for the day, rather than argue about things that are far far far beyond your control. Go watch some football or something..
Or.....
Go get some of your coins out and just sit there and look at them for awhile. Try to get back in touch with that inner collector that resides within you...the one that found delight in a shiny wheat penny, enjoyed a nice day at a show, made a nice buy on ebay......
<< <i>I have a theory that grown men HATE this time of year. They remember how crappy it was to go back to school...summer vacation ending...getting cold...
and all through their lives they carry this deep seated grudge against later summer/early fall.
Now, we see all kinds of arguments and disagreements popping up on this otherwise erudite and peaceful forum.
Gentlemen...why not bury the hatchet? What good does pecking angrily away at the keyboard, grasping at half formed ideas of resentment and jealous rage....what good comes from this?
Just calm down. Take a deep breath and turn the computer off for the day, rather than argue about things that are far far far beyond your control. Go watch some football or something..
Or.....
Go get some of your coins out and just sit there and look at them for awhile. Try to get back in touch with that inner collector that resides within you...the one that found delight in a shiny wheat penny, enjoyed a nice day at a show, made a nice buy on ebay......
relax guys....just relax....... >>
Go watch the Cubbies play baseball.
Oh, wait......it's October.........
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
I thought these were interesting, but they never grabbed me enough to get one. Maybe the theme was too specific. I do think Dan could enhance any of his designs with more scantily-clad goddesses and maidens, and in a strictly numismatic interest, would like to encourage him to pursue this course in the future.
I got one of the '25's', and really like it. Mine was bought raw, and ANACS put it into an MS67 slab. Myself, I think some of DCarr's work is really nice...not all of it, but the one's I don't like, I don't think it looks like "Fifth grade "art" class debris".
Those that create, should continue to create...those that do research, should continue their research.
<< <i>I'm wondering what might really be going on here. What happened ? Did a space alien come down and snatch RWB's body, replacing him with the Grinch ? What exactly drew the ire of RWB, and when did it first happen ?
So I went back and did a search of posts in the US Coins Forum for "carr" in the body and RWB as the author. As RWB said recently, everything posted on the internet is virtually permanent.
So, in chronological, order (oldest first) here are some threads and RWB quotes:
Thread (February 2008): Just picked up a modern pattern by Daniel Carr RWB said: "Enjoy it for what it is: a very nicely made idea for what the designer thinks a coin should look like.". RWB said: "Daniel carr, the designer, has them struck by a private mint and sells them to collectors. If your design skills are as good as his, you could do the same.".
Thread (March 2008): Will the NORFED / LIBERTY Dollars Be a collectable... RWB said: "If you are really asking, “Will they be worth more than bullion?” no one can say. If you want attractive modern coin-related medals, look at some of Daniel carr’s work.".
Thread (February 2010): 1964-D Peace Dollar Paradox ?? [I showed pictures of one of my early "1964-D" Peace Dollar overstrikes without "COPY"] RWB said: "I don't believe there's any problem with Daniel Carr's overstruck pieces. He's not making any claim that could be false or misleading."
Thread (June 2010): US monetary history on an interesting chart I posted this chart I made: RWB said: "Why not label the presidential administrations from FDR forward, or does that produce an "uncomfortable" reality?". I said: "'cause he started it and I'm not an FDR fan. But it's not a Democrat vs Republican thing. I do like Eisenhower & JFK.". RWB said: "By having only one administration presented on your chart, you imply that responsibility lies only with the one listed. Your quoted comment sounds like an excuse for not facing reality. You're a professional artist, certainly you can add a few vertical lines for Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, etc. to the present?"
Thread (June 2010): Another Artificially Frosted Cameo? RWB said: "Maybe Mr. carr will do some of these to go with his alleged "proof" ASE venture? Adding a bit of frost seems little different than adding a schmear of mirror.... Oh, wait, that's the cream cheese on a bagel. ".
And things continued down hill after that.
So either it was the FDR chart thing, or something else happened between Februay and June of this year. I'm sorry if the chart offended anybody. >>
RWB didn't seem to have a problem with the 1964-D Peace dollar (initially) when writing: "I don't believe there's any problem with Daniel Carr's overstruck pieces. He's not making any claim that could be false or misleading.".
It looks like my first mention of the 2009-DC "proofed" Silver Eagles was about 20 minutes before RWB's reply to the Debt Chart thing. So the 2009 Silver Eagle thing must have been it.
<< <i>So either it was the FDR chart thing, or something else happened between Februay and June of this year. I'm sorry if the chart offended anybody. >>
RWB didn't seem to have a problem with the 1964-D Peace dollar (initially) when writing: "I don't believe there's any problem with Daniel Carr's overstruck pieces. He's not making any claim that could be false or misleading.".
It looks like my first mention of the 2009-DC "proofed" Silver Eagles was about 20 minutes before RWB's reply to the Debt Chart thing. So the 2009 Silver Eagle thing must have been it. >>
Good analysis Dan. It's good to see the quote from RWB that he used to have no problem with the 1964-D Peace dollars.
<< <i>Good analysis Dan. It's good to see the quote from RWB that he used to have no problem with the 1964-D Peace dollars. >>
Apparently, he does now. >>
Yes, but what Dan is analyzing is why Roger has a problem with it now. Is it the 2009-DC Proofed ASEs, the FDR chart, or something else? It might not have anything to do with the Peace dollars themselves.
RWB didn't seem to have a problem with the 1964-D Peace dollar (initially) when writing: "I don't believe there's any problem with Daniel Carr's overstruck pieces. He's not making any claim that could be false or misleading."
True. I made the absurd (naive) assumption that Mr. Carr was going to operate legally, and put "COPY" on his overstrikes. Previously, Mr. Carr had dropped the moniker “coin” for his “amero” tokens/medals, which was the correct thing to do. (Yes, non-collectors call medals “coins” all the time. Collectors are supposed to know the difference.)
My error was in trusting someone who had once designed US coins, to continue to maintain respect for the fundamental integrity of the nation's coinage, and of the very enjoyable hobby of coin collecting.
I also challenged Mr. Carr on his mutilated ASEs, and the addition of his initials/monogram as if he had designed the ASE. He insisted it was OK – those who are interested can search for the old postings.
So far as I am concerned, Mr. Carr’s actions in mutilating US ASEs and in producing a likeness of legal US coinage without identification required by the Hobby Protection Act, are illegal, immoral and unethical. They differ not one iota from the actions and products of Chinese and others whose products collectors regularly identify as counterfeit and abhorrent.
I once held Mr. Carr in respect for his earlier work on some of the statehood quarters, and especially for attempts to get the US Mint to be more open to fresh ideas, and to properly recognize coinage artists. These were good for coinage and good for the hobby. That respect was severely tested with the ASE mutilations, and totally lost with the counterfeit 1964-D coins.
The matter resides with those in appropriate positions to investigate and enforce both US law and the ANA Code of Ethics. It is unlikely to be quickly decided.
It is of no purpose to continue the same arguments.
<< <i>I thought these were interesting, but they never grabbed me enough to get one. Maybe the theme was too specific. I do think Dan could enhance any of his designs with more scantily-clad goddesses and maidens, and in a strictly numismatic interest, would like to encourage him to pursue this course in the future. >>
Quick.....somebody register the domain www.TheNubileMint.com
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
Comments
<< <i>Gaaak!
Fifth grade "art" class debris, and a counterfeit silver dollar. Look at the FIDEM medals if you want to see real medallic artists' work. Visit Fédération Internationale de la Médaille d'Art. [www.fidem-medals.org] >>
Rule 5) If you have nothing to contribute to an OP then do not post. Snide remarks and other negative comments will result in your losing your ability to post. No more warnings.
I think that sums it up after some of the things RWB has said about DCarr's work, especially his post on page 2, which is quoted above. For someone that has had the respect of just about everyone on these boards, he certainly sounds like someone who had his lunch money stolen by the school bully. The only thing lacking from RWB now are the words 'I'M TELLIN'!!!'. While I don't like all his (DCarr's) creations, I do love some of them. Those that I don't like, I don't call "Fifth grade "art" class debris.....". I don't demean his work I don't like in any way, shape or form, something I thought was way beneath RWB.....until now. I really don't think DCarr would just arbitrarily produce these '64-D 'Fantasy Pieces' without having done his homework first.
As Lee stated.....
<< <i>Someday, folks WILL seek this stuff out as Daniel is not just another fellow with a coining press.
After all, he has a history as a designer with the US Mint and does create some nice coins, tokens, and what nots. He's already written into Numismatic History and regardless of what occurs in the future, that history will always be there. >>
<< <i><It also came with a couple hundred dollars in gold... maybe more if the bidders thought they were collectible>
Really? How is 3.0 grams (0.1 ounce) of electroplated mixed alloy worth a couple hundred of dollars? MJ
edited to add- This was in the sellers description.
"For free, I am also including some novelty gold coins from my collection. They are:
- 6 miniature St. Gaudens gold eagles. These are mixed-alloy, gold electroplated coins. They're 10mm in diameter and weigh .50 gram each.
- 5 24k (.999) solid gold discs. See the photo for their relative size compared to the coins. Gold as an investment is the safest hedge against inflation and is on the rise!"
They are virtually worthless. I actually think this "add on" scared people off and kept the bidding down. >>
Darnit... too many words! I missed the "gold electroplated coins"... that's a good salesperson when you can confuse the buyer with too many words!
Interestingly, some of my favorite "coin guys" on the boards are: D.Carr, T. Delorey and R Burdette. All add a beautiful perspective in the coin world. Even so, the thread title itself is a violation of the rules, but who's keeping track ? Does that even matter ? ___ sees all.
Fill in the blank (that's a numismatic riddle) for Sunday, 10/10/10
RIP IGWT
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
and all through their lives they carry this deep seated grudge against later summer/early fall.
Now, we see all kinds of arguments and disagreements popping up on this otherwise erudite and peaceful forum.
Gentlemen...why not bury the hatchet? What good does pecking angrily away at the keyboard, grasping at half formed ideas of resentment and jealous rage....what good comes from this?
Just calm down. Take a deep breath and turn the computer off for the day, rather than argue about things that are far far far beyond your control. Go watch some football or something..
Or.....
Go get some of your coins out and just sit there and look at them for awhile. Try to get back in touch with that inner collector that resides within you...the one that found delight in a shiny wheat penny, enjoyed a nice day at a show, made a nice buy on ebay......
relax guys....just relax.......
<< <i>I have a theory that grown men HATE this time of year. They remember how crappy it was to go back to school...summer vacation ending...getting cold...
and all through their lives they carry this deep seated grudge against later summer/early fall.
Now, we see all kinds of arguments and disagreements popping up on this otherwise erudite and peaceful forum.
Gentlemen...why not bury the hatchet? What good does pecking angrily away at the keyboard, grasping at half formed ideas of resentment and jealous rage....what good comes from this?
Just calm down. Take a deep breath and turn the computer off for the day, rather than argue about things that are far far far beyond your control. Go watch some football or something..
Or.....
Go get some of your coins out and just sit there and look at them for awhile. Try to get back in touch with that inner collector that resides within you...the one that found delight in a shiny wheat penny, enjoyed a nice day at a show, made a nice buy on ebay......
relax guys....just relax.......
Go watch the Cubbies play baseball.
Oh, wait......it's October.........
Whatever you are, be a good one. ---- Abraham Lincoln
<< <i>I keep wondering why these were never all that popular. I really like the design ... >>
If they aren't truly popular, they are sleepers, IMO. Nice historic items and intriguing design.
However, many issues may be sleepers. You need to wait a few years after they are sold out to see if demand goes up.
Those that create, should continue to create...those that do research, should continue their research.
<< <i>I'm wondering what might really be going on here. What happened ? Did a space alien come down and snatch RWB's body, replacing him with the Grinch ? What exactly drew the ire of RWB, and when did it first happen ?
So I went back and did a search of posts in the US Coins Forum for "carr" in the body and RWB as the author. As RWB said recently, everything posted on the internet is virtually permanent.
So, in chronological, order (oldest first) here are some threads and RWB quotes:
Thread (February 2008): Just picked up a modern pattern by Daniel Carr
RWB said: "Enjoy it for what it is: a very nicely made idea for what the designer thinks a coin should look like.".
RWB said: "Daniel carr, the designer, has them struck by a private mint and sells them to collectors. If your design skills are as good as his, you could do the same.".
Thread (March 2008): Will the NORFED / LIBERTY Dollars Be a collectable...
RWB said: "If you are really asking, “Will they be worth more than bullion?” no one can say. If you want attractive modern coin-related medals, look at some of Daniel carr’s work.".
Thread (February 2010): 1964-D Peace Dollar Paradox ??
[I showed pictures of one of my early "1964-D" Peace Dollar overstrikes without "COPY"]
RWB said: "I don't believe there's any problem with Daniel Carr's overstruck pieces. He's not making any claim that could be false or misleading."
Thread (June 2010): US monetary history on an interesting chart
I posted this chart I made:
RWB said: "Why not label the presidential administrations from FDR forward, or does that produce an "uncomfortable" reality?".
I said: "'cause he started it and I'm not an FDR fan. But it's not a Democrat vs Republican thing. I do like Eisenhower & JFK.".
RWB said: "By having only one administration presented on your chart, you imply that responsibility lies only with the one listed.
Your quoted comment sounds like an excuse for not facing reality. You're a professional artist, certainly you can add a few vertical lines for Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, etc. to the present?"
Thread (June 2010): Another Artificially Frosted Cameo?
RWB said: "Maybe Mr. carr will do some of these to go with his alleged "proof" ASE venture? Adding a bit of frost seems little different than adding a schmear of mirror.... Oh, wait, that's the cream cheese on a bagel. ".
And things continued down hill after that.
So either it was the FDR chart thing, or something else happened between Februay and June of this year. I'm sorry if the chart offended anybody. >>
RWB didn't seem to have a problem with the 1964-D Peace dollar (initially) when writing:
"I don't believe there's any problem with Daniel Carr's overstruck pieces. He's not making any claim that could be false or misleading.".
It looks like my first mention of the 2009-DC "proofed" Silver Eagles was about 20 minutes before RWB's reply to the Debt Chart thing. So the 2009 Silver Eagle thing must have been it.
<< <i>
<< <i>So either it was the FDR chart thing, or something else happened between Februay and June of this year. I'm sorry if the chart offended anybody. >>
RWB didn't seem to have a problem with the 1964-D Peace dollar (initially) when writing:
"I don't believe there's any problem with Daniel Carr's overstruck pieces. He's not making any claim that could be false or misleading.".
It looks like my first mention of the 2009-DC "proofed" Silver Eagles was about 20 minutes before RWB's reply to the Debt Chart thing. So the 2009 Silver Eagle thing must have been it. >>
Good analysis Dan. It's good to see the quote from RWB that he used to have no problem with the 1964-D Peace dollars.
<< <i>Good analysis Dan. It's good to see the quote from RWB that he used to have no problem with the 1964-D Peace dollars. >>
Apparently, he does now.
<< <i>
<< <i>Good analysis Dan. It's good to see the quote from RWB that he used to have no problem with the 1964-D Peace dollars. >>
Apparently, he does now. >>
Yes, but what Dan is analyzing is why Roger has a problem with it now. Is it the 2009-DC Proofed ASEs, the FDR chart, or something else? It might not have anything to do with the Peace dollars themselves.
"I don't believe there's any problem with Daniel Carr's overstruck pieces. He's not making any claim that could be false or misleading."
True.
I made the absurd (naive) assumption that Mr. Carr was going to operate legally, and put "COPY" on his overstrikes. Previously, Mr. Carr had dropped the moniker “coin” for his “amero” tokens/medals, which was the correct thing to do. (Yes, non-collectors call medals “coins” all the time. Collectors are supposed to know the difference.)
My error was in trusting someone who had once designed US coins, to continue to maintain respect for the fundamental integrity of the nation's coinage, and of the very enjoyable hobby of coin collecting.
I also challenged Mr. Carr on his mutilated ASEs, and the addition of his initials/monogram as if he had designed the ASE. He insisted it was OK – those who are interested can search for the old postings.
So far as I am concerned, Mr. Carr’s actions in mutilating US ASEs and in producing a likeness of legal US coinage without identification required by the Hobby Protection Act, are illegal, immoral and unethical. They differ not one iota from the actions and products of Chinese and others whose products collectors regularly identify as counterfeit and abhorrent.
I once held Mr. Carr in respect for his earlier work on some of the statehood quarters, and especially for attempts to get the US Mint to be more open to fresh ideas, and to properly recognize coinage artists. These were good for coinage and good for the hobby. That respect was severely tested with the ASE mutilations, and totally lost with the counterfeit 1964-D coins.
The matter resides with those in appropriate positions to investigate and enforce both US law and the ANA Code of Ethics. It is unlikely to be quickly decided.
It is of no purpose to continue the same arguments.
<< <i>I thought these were interesting, but they never grabbed me enough to get one. Maybe the theme was too specific. I do think Dan could enhance any of his designs with more scantily-clad goddesses and maidens, and in a strictly numismatic interest, would like to encourage him to pursue this course in the future. >>
Quick.....somebody register the domain www.TheNubileMint.com
<< <i>
<< <i>This just ended, issue price less than $70,
07 seated >>
It also came with a couple hundred dollars in gold... maybe more if the bidders thought they were collectible. >>
I don't think the gold had much to do with it: mixed-alloy, gold electroplated coins
Successful Trades: Swampboy,