Options
Does it bother you when dealers base their offers on greysheet bid?
renomedphys
Posts: 3,959 ✭✭✭✭✭
I know how this sounds, but I try hard to avoid buying average coins, and you know sheet usually means they're going to make you a below average offer. Whatever.
0
Comments
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
There are no formulas. One dealer may pay more than another. It is always best to have an idea of what you are looking for.
As for the GS being expensive, that is just the way it is. You get 51 envelopes a year, 12 of which have three different guides in it. I feel that it is a necessary item to have as a coin dealer. If anyone else wants it, they will be happy to put you on their subscription list.
Dealers do not get any discount.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
1) Not all nice coins bring CDN prices, especially to a dealer.
As current real life examples, I listed one coin for sale today at slightly under CDN bid, and another at about 3% over. I bought them right (and no I didn't rip anyone off
2) Many times, I and other dealers use the CDN as a reference point. For example, sometimes I might offer 90%, other times 100%, and still other times 120% to 500%+.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>Just about all the dealers with whom I interact do. It bugs me a little, because those prices do tend to run so much lower than every other source. But, I'm less annoyed with the dealers, whom I expect to offer wholesale range prices. What bugs me is how exclusive the Graysheet is to dealers--that to get it, one must pay a substantial yearly premium. (It's just not as pretty as CoinFacts.) Because all the dealers use it, it's become a de-facto industry standard and the closest thing to a true market value appraisal guide, and in so doing pulls the value of coins down to its levels accordingly. >>
Maybe I am missing something but on the CDN website they have a 2 year subscription for $162. Its not really exclusive
Since I bit the bullet and got CoinFacts, I'll probably end up bitting the bullet eventually on the Graysheet subscription as well, since I expect coin collecting to remain a considerable investment of time and energy for me. Alternatively, I might buy from dealers an occasional individual issue every few months to get an update, maybe a week before a big show.
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Most of the cream of the cream probably should not be offered to dealers IMO. If the coin is all there let the dealers and collectors go after them on Heritage or the like.
If i were to sell anything to dealers it would probably be generic common date ms64, 65 morgans, walkers and such.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Greysheet, bluesheet, bid - ask, same game just different names.
roadrunner
I use retail price guides for buying and selling.
“I have all the money I want, and there is a better use I can make of my time. We work to become, not to acquire.” — Elbert Hubbard
Not a budget-buster if you only need it occasionally, and don't need the latest issue every week.
<< <i>Previous week's Greysheet is available electronically for $2.49.
Not a budget-buster if you only need it occasionally, and don't need the latest issue every week. >>
I agree... I use it on occasion when considering buying coins, and pick one up from Ebay every 3 months or so... I can usually extrapolate values in between, but I use it more as a guidline, rather than gospel. On the other hand, if a coin seems overpeiced, GS at least gives me some perspective.
A Truth That's Told With Bad Intent
Beats All The Lies You Can Invent
I will say that while it doesn't really bother me to see a dealer reference sheet pending a decision, it's often disheartening. Most of the coins I like to buy are specialist coins. I'm a specialist, sure, and when it comes time to sell my coins, I usually visit a specialist to do so. They are often knowledgeable enough to know that sheet is basically worthless for what they do.
But the occasion does arise that a non-specialist dealer will have something that I want for my collection. Now, I'll say that about 9 times out of 10 that dealer will have the good sense to have that item priced way over sheet, or at least within range of a market acceptable price. Fine. And nowadays, it's getting more and more like every coin I want is priced like a brand new Toyota, so in the process of hemming and hawing, I'll toss a nice "used Mercedes" on the table to make the price easier to swallow. And there you have it, the dealer pulls out a greysheet, or worse, starts referencing auction histories in order to arrive at a fair trade value. They'll point out how the last three sales of a coin in a comparible grade (usually the same coin!) were substantially lower, I'll point out that mine is nicer and warrants a better price, and then scoff "Hey, why don't we look up auction history on your coin?", but by then, the deal is sour, and off I go. Usually I'll say something like, "How about I go and try to sell this at another dealer's table and come back later?" But we all know how that ends.
I guess what it boils down to is that if you're going to try and sell me a PQ item for a PQ price, at least have the decency to acknowledge that my trade item is also quite nice, and offer me commensurate value.
(Hey, look, I finally got to use commensurate in a sentence!
Empty Nest Collection
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
Every time I chase a PQ coin the seller always says you can throw the sheet out on this one. Sound familiar??
If you think that, try me out. I'll prove you wrong fast.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>The gray sheets is fine except when a dealer only offers you 1/3 of the sheet value now that ticks me off..For instance a uncirculated lincoln roll, sheet value $120.00 and the dealer offers you $40.00 now thats bull crap,but then again thats the way most dealers operate >>
Sorry, but I think your statement that "that's the way most dealers operate", as in offering "1/3 of the sheet value" is bologna. Maybe some dealers on some occasions, but certainly not most dealers.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Now that is an insult, I agree. I went into a local B&M to sell or trade some PCGS CC Morgans and he pulls out the Bluesheet. I asked, "why are you refering to the Bluesheet, the Bluesheet is for sight UN-seen, can you not see these coins right here in front of you?"
He replied, "I will be selling these to other dealers in other parts of the Country."
I said, "I dont see how that applies to our transaction that is happening right now, right here." I asked for him to at least look at the Greysheet and maybe we could split the difference and agree on a number that way.
He refused...I said good day and good luck.
These were all MS65-67 PCGS CC Morgans. I ended up selling them all on Heritage after working out a deal on the fees due to the value of the Lot. Even after all the fees, I still netted more than the Greysheet. I printed off that sales sheet from Heritage and took it back to that dealer and asked him to take a gander at it. He studied it and gave the me the old line about how he has bills and has to keep the lights on, pay his employees, pay Insurance premiums, and my favorite, just bought a new computer to keep up with current values.
I just smiled at him and said, "I see why you've been in business so long when there's a sucker born every minute. Unfortunately, for you, I was born on a Sunday, but it wasnt yesterday."(It was a Monday)
<< <i>
<< <i>The gray sheets is fine except when a dealer only offers you 1/3 of the sheet value now that ticks me off..For instance a uncirculated lincoln roll, sheet value $120.00 and the dealer offers you $40.00 now thats bull crap,but then again thats the way most dealers operate >>
Sorry, but I think your statement that "that's the way most dealers operate", as in offering "1/3 of the sheet value" is bologna. Maybe some dealers on some occasions, but certainly not most dealers. >>
I buy into this myself with a exception. I would expect the offer above by most small local coin show vest pocket dealers and B@M's. I would not expect this from National dealers on the big show tour, except they do not deal with much of this type material.
What percent of Big Show dealers even own a B@M? Does Mark Feld, WTCG, Charmy and the list goes on and on own a B@M stores.
The quality of material is generally much different between the Big boys and the local city B&M's.
If i were selling a Matte Proof Lincoln i would try Eagle Eye, Wagner, Andy & Charmy before i called Coast to Coast coins or the neighborhood B@M. Selling rare gold i you got Winter and the like. I would not expect any of them to buy at 10k retail coin for 100 dollars less. When you get to this level in coin collecting you should know where to go and what to expect. If you collect nice PQ coins why sell to a dealer anyway unless you are strapped, Heritage or the like is just a phone call away. Let Heritages 500,000 registered bidders set the price. Even with the fees i would think you would come out most of the time. A lot of dealers bid and buy at Heritage.
You got to pay for the convience of walking into a show or B&M and walking away with cash 10 minutes later.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>How many EAC dealers pull out the Grey Sheet? >>
This very thing happened to me in Long Beach. Twice!
Empty Nest Collection
Some dealer's don't care about PQ material, or don't know it when they see it. It can sometimes be frustrating to sell to such dealers. It can also sometimes be very advantageous to buy from them.
<< <i>Especially when selling Matte Proof Lincoln cents, or any copper proofs, for that matter. Nobody posts bids for Proof copper, so the greysheet has no information to report. They used to take dealer's invoices. >>
There was a local dealer about a year ago who a bought a few MPLs from at sheet. He only keeps one foot in coins and doesn't read up much about coin news or auction prices, so he bases almost everything off sheet. It was a good day
That's because EACers have a different technique available to them for buying "right"......EAC grading! When you can buy what most of the world calls MS65 at XF-MS60 prices, then who even needs a price guide? Now why didn't the LSCCers come up with a system like that!
roadrunner
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>As I've said many times before, as it relates to price guides, the hobby should have TWO prices for EVERY coin valued. A "low"price representing wholesale value (bid) and a "high"price representing retail value (ask). This RANGE value of two numbers would allow buyers and sellers to better negotiate transactions. In todays world where knowledgeable collectors meet dealers the PERCEPTION in the minds of each party is that the other party is unfair. By using range pricing at least the parties have a good starting point to negotiate assuming they BOTH understand that in FACT there is a wholesale market and a retail market and the difference represents the margin (profit) that the seller wants to achieve and the buyer must pay for in order for the deal to be consumated. JMHO. Steve
If only it were that easy.
There are already bid AND ask prices for some coins listed in the CDN. And yet, if a buyer offers the bid price (or less), he is often accused of low-balling the seller. Never mind that the same buyer might offer his coins at the ask price, meaning that he is trying to work on a margin of approximately 10%.
<< <i>
There are already bid AND ask prices for some coins listed in the CDN. And yet, if a buyer offers the bid price (or less), he is often accused of low-balling the seller. Never mind that the same buyer might offer his coins at the ask price, meaning that he is trying to work on a margin of approximately 10%. >>
Mark,
We all know the CDN is a wholesale price guide INTENDED for transactions between dealers. It was not intended to be used by collectors to determine a retail price (ie) ask. The problem in todays world is that all knowledgeable collectors know about the CDN and naturally like the ask price to "represent" retail. At least those collectors who want to buy the coin. If they are selling the coin they obviously want nothing to do with the CDN.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>
<< <i>
There are already bid AND ask prices for some coins listed in the CDN. And yet, if a buyer offers the bid price (or less), he is often accused of low-balling the seller. Never mind that the same buyer might offer his coins at the ask price, meaning that he is trying to work on a margin of approximately 10%. >>
Mark,
We all know the CDN is a wholesale price guide INTENDED for transactions between dealers. It was not intended to be used by collectors to determine a retail price (ie) ask. The problem in todays world is that all knowledgeable collectors know about the CDN and naturally like the ask price to "represent" retail. At least those collectors who want to buy the coin. If they are selling the coin they obviously want nothing to do with the CDN.
Steve
Steve, you are correct.
Many collectors who are selling, like to pretend that CDN prices should represent wholesale levels - that they should be entitled to those prices (or close to them). But, on the other hand, if they are buying, they want to pretend that CDN prices represent retail, instead. They can't have it both ways.