Does it bother you when dealers base their offers on greysheet bid?

renomedphys

I know how this sounds, but I try hard to avoid buying average coins, and you know sheet usually means they're going to make you a below average offer. Whatever.

TomB

I believe that regardless of how nasty or how nice a coin might be, the Greysheet and any other bit of information is a reasonable thing to look at prior to any offer or purcahse.

EagleEye

Especially when selling Matte Proof Lincoln cents, or any copper proofs, for that matter. Nobody posts bids for Proof copper, so the greysheet has no information to report. They used to take dealer's invoices.

mdwoods

I wouldn't mind them checking the sheet, I wouldn't appreciate a low ball offer on a PQ coin.

scottgardener

Just about all the dealers with whom I interact do. It bugs me a little, because those prices do tend to run so much lower than every other source. But, I'm less annoyed with the dealers, whom I expect to offer wholesale range prices. What bugs me is how exclusive the Graysheet is to dealers--that to get it, one must pay a substantial yearly premium. (It's just not as pretty as CoinFacts.) Because all the dealers use it, it's become a de-facto industry standard and the closest thing to a true market value appraisal guide, and in so doing pulls the value of coins down to its levels accordingly.

Julian

I use the GS as a guide when purchasing coins, but I always ask what price the seller is looking for. If the coin is a premium coin and I have something to do with it, I will probably pay accordingly, but if it is just going to be inventory, I may not.

There are no formulas. One dealer may pay more than another. It is always best to have an idea of what you are looking for.

As for the GS being expensive, that is just the way it is. You get 51 envelopes a year, 12 of which have three different guides in it. I feel that it is a necessary item to have as a coin dealer. If anyone else wants it, they will be happy to put you on their subscription list.

Dealers do not get any discount.

coinguy1

A couple of things to consider:

1) Not all nice coins bring CDN prices, especially to a dealer.

As current real life examples, I listed one coin for sale today at slightly under CDN bid, and another at about 3% over. I bought them right (and no I didn't rip anyone off they were auction purchases) and believe them to be quality coins. But if I am willing to sell them at those levels, I can't afford to pay bid for them.

2) Many times, I and other dealers use the CDN as a reference point. For example, sometimes I might offer 90%, other times 100%, and still other times 120% to 500%+.

WTCG

That would depend on the coin and the series. Some coins are worth a premium over sheet while other coins and coin series I would be thrilled to get anywhere near sheet. The Greysheet is mostly a good price indicator yet there are plenty of coins that are realistically not worth Greysheet numbers.

Greeniejr

<< <i>Just about all the dealers with whom I interact do. It bugs me a little, because those prices do tend to run so much lower than every other source. But, I'm less annoyed with the dealers, whom I expect to offer wholesale range prices. What bugs me is how exclusive the Graysheet is to dealers--that to get it, one must pay a substantial yearly premium. (It's just not as pretty as CoinFacts.) Because all the dealers use it, it's become a de-facto industry standard and the closest thing to a true market value appraisal guide, and in so doing pulls the value of coins down to its levels accordingly. >>



Maybe I am missing something but on the CDN website they have a 2 year subscription for $162. Its not really exclusive

sinin1

not if I can buy their coins at ask -

customroll

The only way it would bother me is if I brought coins to a dealer for sale and without looking at the coins he said, "I pay xx% back of bid", and reached for his grey sheet. In which case he would not be looking at anything I had for sale.

scottgardener

The existence of the Graysheet is pretty much a fact of life; dealers have to have a dealer-to-dealer reference. I do wish, however, that since its prices are in effect the real value of most average coins (not counting legitimate premium, toned, or otherwise better examples), I didn't have to be hit with the choice of either another $100+ subscription or all of these other price guides, including the PCGS and Numismedia guides, being more readily available but overly optimistic ballpark alternatives.

Since I bit the bullet and got CoinFacts, I'll probably end up bitting the bullet eventually on the Graysheet subscription as well, since I expect coin collecting to remain a considerable investment of time and energy for me. Alternatively, I might buy from dealers an occasional individual issue every few months to get an update, maybe a week before a big show.

COALPORTER

It bothers me when they offer blue sheet!

TwoSides2aCoin

No, but it would please me tremendously if they based their offers off of greysheet "ask".

pennyannie

Unless you buy the cream of the cream i would expect dealers to use the Greysheet to make offers. Everybody but me owns PQ coins. PQ just means the dealer will have a easier time selling it. It is easy for a collector to overpay, much harder to get a dealer to overpay. If i was a dealer there is no way i would be offering bid and then sell at ask on 98 percent of the stuff out there. I would want a much better return on my money.

Most of the cream of the cream probably should not be offered to dealers IMO. If the coin is all there let the dealers and collectors go after them on Heritage or the like.

If i were to sell anything to dealers it would probably be generic common date ms64, 65 morgans, walkers and such.

roadrunner

In the days before greysheet there was Coin World Trends, Red book, Blue book, and Black book. Red book and Trends were always retail. And to ensure dealer's could buy real cheap, they came out with the blue book. And as far as I remember that was like 1/2 to 3/4 of Red book. And for those who really wanted to rip customers, there was a pocket sized soft covered "black" book which had low ball prices that would make you blush. I actually saw that pulled out a few times to make offers.

Greysheet, bluesheet, bid - ask, same game just different names.

roadrunner

mr1931S

Greysheet is unnecessary for me.

I use retail price guides for buying and selling.

Overdate

Previous week's Greysheet is available electronically for $2.49.

Not a budget-buster if you only need it occasionally, and don't need the latest issue every week.

Obiwancanoli

<< <i>Previous week's Greysheet is available electronically for $2.49.

Not a budget-buster if you only need it occasionally, and don't need the latest issue every week. >>



I agree... I use it on occasion when considering buying coins, and pick one up from Ebay every 3 months or so... I can usually extrapolate values in between, but I use it more as a guidline, rather than gospel. On the other hand, if a coin seems overpeiced, GS at least gives me some perspective.

ebaybuyer

grey sheet only applies to coins that are in no way tough to find. for tough coins grey sheet is useless.

renomedphys

Hmmm, varied opinions. EagleEye about hit it on the head for me, though.

I will say that while it doesn't really bother me to see a dealer reference sheet pending a decision, it's often disheartening. Most of the coins I like to buy are specialist coins. I'm a specialist, sure, and when it comes time to sell my coins, I usually visit a specialist to do so. They are often knowledgeable enough to know that sheet is basically worthless for what they do.

But the occasion does arise that a non-specialist dealer will have something that I want for my collection. Now, I'll say that about 9 times out of 10 that dealer will have the good sense to have that item priced way over sheet, or at least within range of a market acceptable price. Fine. And nowadays, it's getting more and more like every coin I want is priced like a brand new Toyota, so in the process of hemming and hawing, I'll toss a nice "used Mercedes" on the table to make the price easier to swallow. And there you have it, the dealer pulls out a greysheet, or worse, starts referencing auction histories in order to arrive at a fair trade value. They'll point out how the last three sales of a coin in a comparible grade (usually the same coin!) were substantially lower, I'll point out that mine is nicer and warrants a better price, and then scoff "Hey, why don't we look up auction history on your coin?", but by then, the deal is sour, and off I go. Usually I'll say something like, "How about I go and try to sell this at another dealer's table and come back later?" But we all know how that ends.

I guess what it boils down to is that if you're going to try and sell me a PQ item for a PQ price, at least have the decency to acknowledge that my trade item is also quite nice, and offer me commensurate value.

(Hey, look, I finally got to use commensurate in a sentence! )

illini420

I saw a few dealers at Long Beach this past weekend selling PCGS graded gem classic commemoratives for 25% back of Greysheet bid and sometimes even further back. A few of those coins even had CAC stickers. I thought about buying them all up and seeing if someone at the show would be kind enough to offer me bid or even 10% back but it just seems like commems aren't that hot and I wanted to spend my cash on keepers not flippers.

Teva

Maybe it ok for moderns and average coins but the gray sheet is as limited as any other price guide it just a little more up to date.
Every time I chase a PQ coin the seller always says you can throw the sheet out on this one. Sound familiar??

Bigrig52

The gray sheets is fine except when a dealer only offers you 1/3 of the sheet value now that ticks me off..For instance a uncirculated lincoln roll, sheet value $120.00 and the dealer offers you $40.00 now thats bull crap,but then again thats the way most dealers operate

segoja

Not sure a good dealer normally offers 30% of greysheet.

If you think that, try me out. I'll prove you wrong fast.

coinguy1

<< <i>The gray sheets is fine except when a dealer only offers you 1/3 of the sheet value now that ticks me off..For instance a uncirculated lincoln roll, sheet value $120.00 and the dealer offers you $40.00 now thats bull crap,but then again thats the way most dealers operate >>

Sorry, but I think your statement that "that's the way most dealers operate", as in offering "1/3 of the sheet value" is bologna. Maybe some dealers on some occasions, but certainly not most dealers.

fcloud

Any offer is a starting point. If you can't find the price right for both of you that's just the way it goes and there shouldn't be hard feelings either way.

piecesofme

<<It bothers me when they offer blue sheet>>


Now that is an insult, I agree. I went into a local B&M to sell or trade some PCGS CC Morgans and he pulls out the Bluesheet. I asked, "why are you refering to the Bluesheet, the Bluesheet is for sight UN-seen, can you not see these coins right here in front of you?"
He replied, "I will be selling these to other dealers in other parts of the Country."
I said, "I dont see how that applies to our transaction that is happening right now, right here." I asked for him to at least look at the Greysheet and maybe we could split the difference and agree on a number that way.
He refused...I said good day and good luck.
These were all MS65-67 PCGS CC Morgans. I ended up selling them all on Heritage after working out a deal on the fees due to the value of the Lot. Even after all the fees, I still netted more than the Greysheet. I printed off that sales sheet from Heritage and took it back to that dealer and asked him to take a gander at it. He studied it and gave the me the old line about how he has bills and has to keep the lights on, pay his employees, pay Insurance premiums, and my favorite, just bought a new computer to keep up with current values.
I just smiled at him and said, "I see why you've been in business so long when there's a sucker born every minute. Unfortunately, for you, I was born on a Sunday, but it wasnt yesterday."(It was a Monday)

EagleEye

How many EAC dealers pull out the Grey Sheet?

ProofCents

To answer Rick's rhetorical question: None!!!

pcgs69

What really bothers me is when they offer you the "VF" bid for a VF30 coin. In other words, you'd get the same offer if it was a VF20. Had that happen on a 1795 DB $. I wonder if he would price a VF30 the same as a VF20 in his inventory. Hmm....

piecesofme

Thats why I refuse to buy those "in-between" grades. If I cant afford AU50, I either save for it or buy a XF40 to have one in the meantime. No in-between grades for me just for that reason. I dont even consider them anymore.

RYK

Maybe I am missing something, but I thought that was the purpose of price guides, to guide buy/sell prices. That does not necessarily mean that they are accurate for all coins/series, but it seems that it should be a reasonable and objective starting point.

pennyannie

<< <i>

<< <i>The gray sheets is fine except when a dealer only offers you 1/3 of the sheet value now that ticks me off..For instance a uncirculated lincoln roll, sheet value $120.00 and the dealer offers you $40.00 now thats bull crap,but then again thats the way most dealers operate >>

Sorry, but I think your statement that "that's the way most dealers operate", as in offering "1/3 of the sheet value" is bologna. Maybe some dealers on some occasions, but certainly not most dealers. >>




I buy into this myself with a exception. I would expect the offer above by most small local coin show vest pocket dealers and B@M's. I would not expect this from National dealers on the big show tour, except they do not deal with much of this type material.

What percent of Big Show dealers even own a B@M? Does Mark Feld, WTCG, Charmy and the list goes on and on own a B@M stores.

The quality of material is generally much different between the Big boys and the local city B&M's.

If i were selling a Matte Proof Lincoln i would try Eagle Eye, Wagner, Andy & Charmy before i called Coast to Coast coins or the neighborhood B@M. Selling rare gold i you got Winter and the like. I would not expect any of them to buy at 10k retail coin for 100 dollars less. When you get to this level in coin collecting you should know where to go and what to expect. If you collect nice PQ coins why sell to a dealer anyway unless you are strapped, Heritage or the like is just a phone call away. Let Heritages 500,000 registered bidders set the price. Even with the fees i would think you would come out most of the time. A lot of dealers bid and buy at Heritage.

You got to pay for the convience of walking into a show or B&M and walking away with cash 10 minutes later.

renomedphys

<< <i>How many EAC dealers pull out the Grey Sheet? >>


This very thing happened to me in Long Beach. Twice!

GoldenEyeNumismatics

Tell them your bottom line. If they say no, then move on.

Some dealer's don't care about PQ material, or don't know it when they see it. It can sometimes be frustrating to sell to such dealers. It can also sometimes be very advantageous to buy from them.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>Especially when selling Matte Proof Lincoln cents, or any copper proofs, for that matter. Nobody posts bids for Proof copper, so the greysheet has no information to report. They used to take dealer's invoices. >>



There was a local dealer about a year ago who a bought a few MPLs from at sheet. He only keeps one foot in coins and doesn't read up much about coin news or auction prices, so he bases almost everything off sheet. It was a good day

roadrunner

To answer Rick's rhetorical question: None!!!

That's because EACers have a different technique available to them for buying "right"......EAC grading! When you can buy what most of the world calls MS65 at XF-MS60 prices, then who even needs a price guide? Now why didn't the LSCCers come up with a system like that!

roadrunner

Steve

As I've said many times before, as it relates to price guides, the hobby should have TWO prices for EVERY coin valued. A "low"price representing wholesale value (bid) and a "high"price representing retail value (ask). This RANGE value of two numbers would allow buyers and sellers to better negotiate transactions. In todays world where knowledgeable collectors meet dealers the PERCEPTION in the minds of each party is that the other party is unfair. By using range pricing at least the parties have a good starting point to negotiate assuming they BOTH understand that in FACT there is a wholesale market and a retail market and the difference represents the margin (profit) that the seller wants to achieve and the buyer must pay for in order for the deal to be consumated. JMHO. Steve

coinguy1

<< <i>As I've said many times before, as it relates to price guides, the hobby should have TWO prices for EVERY coin valued. A "low"price representing wholesale value (bid) and a "high"price representing retail value (ask). This RANGE value of two numbers would allow buyers and sellers to better negotiate transactions. In todays world where knowledgeable collectors meet dealers the PERCEPTION in the minds of each party is that the other party is unfair. By using range pricing at least the parties have a good starting point to negotiate assuming they BOTH understand that in FACT there is a wholesale market and a retail market and the difference represents the margin (profit) that the seller wants to achieve and the buyer must pay for in order for the deal to be consumated. JMHO. Steve >>

If only it were that easy.

There are already bid AND ask prices for some coins listed in the CDN. And yet, if a buyer offers the bid price (or less), he is often accused of low-balling the seller. Never mind that the same buyer might offer his coins at the ask price, meaning that he is trying to work on a margin of approximately 10%.

Steve

<< <i>

There are already bid AND ask prices for some coins listed in the CDN. And yet, if a buyer offers the bid price (or less), he is often accused of low-balling the seller. Never mind that the same buyer might offer his coins at the ask price, meaning that he is trying to work on a margin of approximately 10%. >>



Mark,
We all know the CDN is a wholesale price guide INTENDED for transactions between dealers. It was not intended to be used by collectors to determine a retail price (ie) ask. The problem in todays world is that all knowledgeable collectors know about the CDN and naturally like the ask price to "represent" retail. At least those collectors who want to buy the coin. If they are selling the coin they obviously want nothing to do with the CDN.
Steve

coinguy1

<< <i>

<< <i>

There are already bid AND ask prices for some coins listed in the CDN. And yet, if a buyer offers the bid price (or less), he is often accused of low-balling the seller. Never mind that the same buyer might offer his coins at the ask price, meaning that he is trying to work on a margin of approximately 10%. >>



Mark,
We all know the CDN is a wholesale price guide INTENDED for transactions between dealers. It was not intended to be used by collectors to determine a retail price (ie) ask. The problem in todays world is that all knowledgeable collectors know about the CDN and naturally like the ask price to "represent" retail. At least those collectors who want to buy the coin. If they are selling the coin they obviously want nothing to do with the CDN.
Steve >>

Steve, you are correct.

Many collectors who are selling, like to pretend that CDN prices should represent wholesale levels - that they should be entitled to those prices (or close to them). But, on the other hand, if they are buying, they want to pretend that CDN prices represent retail, instead. They can't have it both ways.

johnny9434

if they pull out a grey sheet and look to eager at it then i have a tendacy of passing. its just something that i dont like to deal with