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Why play games?
Greeniejr
Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭
In the ever growing thread regarding circulated Barber Quarters, we have a member here who took some coins to a small dealer. That dealer likely was using the Gray Sheet and the seller complained that they did not get offered enough. My question is in this case and many other similar cases, why didn't you present them to the dealer and say I am looking for X for the coins. This is especially true with harder to price issues and varieties.
Here is a common exchange at our counter.
Customer: I have some coins (a coin) to sell what can you pay me for them/it?
Us: How much are you looking for?
Customer: I am not really sure, I really don't know what its worth
Us: (After research, usually HA.com) We will pay X
Customer: Well isn't it worth Y? I did some research on it and came across it selling for Y. I need Y-10% for it
Us: So you do have a price in mind, you want Y-10%
At this point we either pass, play or negotiate further. The point is, if you know what you want for something why not say it? There are times that people bring in coins that we know we won't be able to buy at the levels they want so we pass. Not every transaction will work. Further, if you know it is something with a special value beyond generic, why complain when the other person does not recognize it? Lastly, why should that dealer pay you all of the money when no matter what he offers, you will want to negotiate? The point is, that if you play your cards, the dealer can play his and you can both win. If you hide your cards, don't expect the dealer to show his because it is not going to happen. If you want to be treated like a dealer and get dealer pricing behave like one. Almost all dealer transactions occur with one offering a coin to another and the SELLER naming the price (which leads to Pass/Play/Negotiate).
Here is a common exchange at our counter.
Customer: I have some coins (a coin) to sell what can you pay me for them/it?
Us: How much are you looking for?
Customer: I am not really sure, I really don't know what its worth
Us: (After research, usually HA.com) We will pay X
Customer: Well isn't it worth Y? I did some research on it and came across it selling for Y. I need Y-10% for it
Us: So you do have a price in mind, you want Y-10%
At this point we either pass, play or negotiate further. The point is, if you know what you want for something why not say it? There are times that people bring in coins that we know we won't be able to buy at the levels they want so we pass. Not every transaction will work. Further, if you know it is something with a special value beyond generic, why complain when the other person does not recognize it? Lastly, why should that dealer pay you all of the money when no matter what he offers, you will want to negotiate? The point is, that if you play your cards, the dealer can play his and you can both win. If you hide your cards, don't expect the dealer to show his because it is not going to happen. If you want to be treated like a dealer and get dealer pricing behave like one. Almost all dealer transactions occur with one offering a coin to another and the SELLER naming the price (which leads to Pass/Play/Negotiate).
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<< <i>They are hoping you'll say y+10to50%. >>
But is that at all realistic. It seems like you are just asking for trouble.
<< <i>They are hoping you'll say y+10to50%. >>
Exactly. Seller is hoping you will offer more than he would have asked. A silly fantasy that rarely happens, I'm sure.
Lance.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>They want you to lay your cards on the table first. They are afraid that their ask price is lower than your initial offer price. It's called wheeling and dealing. >>
Whatever its called, it goes much further than simply getting a dealers quote and then leaving the store to whine about that quote.
To me, thats a game.
The name is LEE!
1. The first is the greed/fear of the uninformed or poorly informed seller. He has done his research but is not confident in it and fears that if he opens with his price, and the coin is much more valuable than he calculated, he will leave some (maybe substantial) money on the table.
Similarly, many dealers work the greed/fear angle, as well, and do not want to offer the first price because it's possible the seller is a sucker and will take a lot less.
In many instances, there is a standoff between buyer and seller as a result. For the most part, this is amateurish.
2. Many sellers, and surprisingly some very experienced collector-sellers, do not know where to go to best sell their coins. Often, the best dealer is the one who sold you the coins in the first place, as he is more likely to make a two-way market, knows the special qualities of the coins, and may know what you paid for the coin. If nothing else, the latter piece of information is a good starting point for setting the price.
No doubt, the forum member who has extremely disappointed by the offer received for his barber quarters did not purchase them at the shop where he tried to sell them.
3. Coin stores, though they buy and sell coins, often do not make a two-way market in numismatic coins. A generation ago, many did. The inexperienced person would not necessarily know this.
4. Coin dealers are looking to buy low and sell high in order to stay in business. They often have a very good idea in what the sell price will be (bullion, generic Saints, and other very liquid items), and can adjust their buy price to precisely control their margin. When confronted with uncertainty on the sell side (ie. a collection of raw barber quarters), the buy price has to be very conservative to account for the uncertainty on the sell side. Additionally, a dealer/buyer might take a coin for a "rip" price because he knows he can easily make money on it, rather than a stronger price, which might take more work to move and result in little or no profit (or even a loss), such that the coin is a pass at any higher price.
5. Coin collectors often like to wear the collector and dealer hat interchangeably and often change costumes mid-transaction to suit their purposes.
The other way is if dealer's stopped playing games and just gave their best price the first time.
Not as much fun for the dealer's though
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
let me see if I can get these coins at 10% of value?
let me see if I can get these coins at 25% of value?
let me see if I can get these coins at below melt?
<< <i>Because the person who says a number first is always at a disadvantage. No matter how you slice it, it's a game. Like buying a car or a house, etc...it's a game. Perhaps once you get established with a dealer the "game" can stop, but the first few times around: it's a game. >>
With a house, the seller sets the price and the buyer can make an offer if that price is not acceptable.
<< <i>Perhaps once you get established with a dealer the "game" can stop... >>
If by "game", you mean trying not being the first to come up with a number, I don't see how it could ever stop. Somebody has to name a price first, or there's no deal.
I don't recall seeing him again.....
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>Because the person who says a number first is always at a disadvantage. No matter how you slice it, it's a game. Like buying a car or a house, etc...it's a game. Perhaps once you get established with a dealer the "game" can stop, but the first few times around: it's a game. >>
I agree--that's how negotiations work. First person to name a number is in a weaker position. Sometimes jokingly high or low numbers are used as ice breakers, but sometimes the ridiculous numbers stick when the other party is a weak negotiator or desparate.
An average collector selling to a dealer that he doesn't know well, is almost always going to be a weaker position. An active dealer negotiates thousands of deals a year, the seller maybe one or two, maybe a dozen if they are active. By naming a number, the seller further weakens their position. That's one reason dealers want that to happen, and that's why sellers resist doing so. Some dealers will make a fair wholesale offer (which many collectors still think is absurdly low), but there are also dealers that will consistently try to rip coins for the lowest possible price even brag about it later.
Buying and selling can be a bit of a Kabuki style dance, depending on the setting, the country, the culture, the venue. Each person brings their own history to the negotiating table. America is not a monolilth as far as cultures. In some countries, hard negotiating is expected and merchants are insulted if a person pays list price and doesn't want to play a game, thinking they could have milked that customer for even more. In some countries, some tourist venues might have a list price 1000% to 2000% over what they might sell for to a local, and during those negotiations the merchants might cry when they agree to sell for 30% below their absurdly high tourist price, then laugh about it to their buddies. In some countries, some stores, customers that try to negotiate are seen as trouble makers and not worth the time.
If I knew how much it was worth, I could have given a number X-10%. But I didn't know. Consequently, the conversation ended at that point.
I knew it would happen.
Dealers with store fronts can only survive if they move their products whereas collectors selling coins are totally optional. (Unless of course they're closet dealers
Before a dealer purchases a coin(s), he/she needs to make a quick determination on whether or not he/she can quickly resell the piece. Often times, this does NOT involve a detailed analysis of the items being offered. More often than not it involves a quick check of a current pricing sheet which may or may not reflect current trends. It also invloves a quick analysis to determine the grade and condition of the pieces being offered. Why offer/pay retail or even 10% back of retail on an "assumed" grade for a raw coin?
I don't know about you but buying and selling inventory which only turns a dollar or two in profit is not my idea of a smart business move since to survive under that situation, a dealer has to sell thousands of coins each month if not more.
Buying and selling coins is an assumed risk. The coin dealer "assumes" the risks on whether or not he can move the piece. The collector, on the other hand, "realizes" the risk when it comes time to sell.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I'm a collector. I don't negotiate deals every day. I had a low pop set that I truly had no idea what the market price should've been, so I posed the question to several dealers here in pms. Every single one of them asked me, "how much do you want for it?"
If I knew how much it was worth, I could have given a number X-10%. But I didn't know. Consequently, the conversation ended at that point. >>
How much you "want" for it and knowing what its "worth" are two totally unrelated situations since your "want" price could be hundreds more than what you paid, yet hundreds less than what someone else would pay.
If you do not know what you would be willing to accept or how much you "want", why even offer it for sale?
The old advice of "know what you are buying before you buy it" can also be interpreted as "know what you are selling before you sell it". Otherwise, you'll never really know whether or not you are receiving a fair offer.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I see the OP's point. I think that there are several factors that contribute to the "game playing":
1. The first is the greed/fear of the uninformed or poorly informed seller. He has done his research but is not confident in it and fears that if he opens with his price, and the coin is much more valuable than he calculated, he will leave some (may substantial) money on the table.
Similarly, many dealers work the greed/fear angle, as well, and do not want to offer the first price because it's possible the seller is a sucker and will take a lot loss.
In many instances, there is a standoff between buyer and seller as a result. For the most part, this is amateurish.
2. Many sellers, and surprisingly some very experienced collector-sellers, do not know where to go to best sell their coins. Often, the best dealer is the one who sold you the coins in the first place, as he is more likely to make a two-way market, knows the special qualities of the coins, and may know what you paid for the coin. If nothing else, the latter piece of information is a good starting point for setting the price.
No doubt, the forum member who has extremely disappointed by the offer received for his barber quarters did not purchase them at the shop where he tried to sell them.
3. Coin stores, though they buy and sell coins, often do not make a two-way market in numismatic coins. A generation ago, many did. The inexperienced person would not necessarily know this.
4. Coin dealers are looking to buy low and sell high in order to stay in business. They often have a very good idea in what the sell price will be (bullion, generic Saints, and other very liquid items), and can adjust their buy price to precisely control their margin. When confronted with uncertainty on the sell side (ie. a collection of raw barber quarters), the buy price has to be very conservative to account for the uncertainty on the sell side. Additionally, a dealer/buyer might take a coin for a "rip" price because he knows he can easily make money on it, rather than a stronger price, which might take more work to move and result in little or no profit (or even a loss), such that the coin is a pass at any higher price.
5. Coin collectors often like to wear the collector and dealer hat interchangeably and often change costumes mid-transaction to suit their purposes. >>
An excellent synopsis, especially well capped with #5. My only issue is when the aformentioned hat changer wants to whine about the results. The Interweb has made way too many people amateur experts (sheepishly added to include myself, with all honesty).
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>
<< <i>I see the OP's point. I think that there are several factors that contribute to the "game playing":
1. The first is the greed/fear of the uninformed or poorly informed seller. He has done his research but is not confident in it and fears that if he opens with his price, and the coin is much more valuable than he calculated, he will leave some (may substantial) money on the table.
Similarly, many dealers work the greed/fear angle, as well, and do not want to offer the first price because it's possible the seller is a sucker and will take a lot loss.
In many instances, there is a standoff between buyer and seller as a result. For the most part, this is amateurish.
2. Many sellers, and surprisingly some very experienced collector-sellers, do not know where to go to best sell their coins. Often, the best dealer is the one who sold you the coins in the first place, as he is more likely to make a two-way market, knows the special qualities of the coins, and may know what you paid for the coin. If nothing else, the latter piece of information is a good starting point for setting the price.
No doubt, the forum member who has extremely disappointed by the offer received for his barber quarters did not purchase them at the shop where he tried to sell them.
3. Coin stores, though they buy and sell coins, often do not make a two-way market in numismatic coins. A generation ago, many did. The inexperienced person would not necessarily know this.
4. Coin dealers are looking to buy low and sell high in order to stay in business. They often have a very good idea in what the sell price will be (bullion, generic Saints, and other very liquid items), and can adjust their buy price to precisely control their margin. When confronted with uncertainty on the sell side (ie. a collection of raw barber quarters), the buy price has to be very conservative to account for the uncertainty on the sell side. Additionally, a dealer/buyer might take a coin for a "rip" price because he knows he can easily make money on it, rather than a stronger price, which might take more work to move and result in little or no profit (or even a loss), such that the coin is a pass at any higher price.
5. Coin collectors often like to wear the collector and dealer hat interchangeably and often change costumes mid-transaction to suit their purposes. >>
An excellent synopsis, especially well capped with #5. My only issue is when the aformentioned hat changer wants to whine about the results. The Interweb has made way too many people amateur experts (sheepishly added to include myself, with all honesty). >>
I see your point that people wear both hats. BUT, if you are going to wear both hats, when you are wearing the dealer hat you have to play the role of dealer and not feign stupid.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I see the OP's point. I think that there are several factors that contribute to the "game playing":
1. The first is the greed/fear of the uninformed or poorly informed seller. He has done his research but is not confident in it and fears that if he opens with his price, and the coin is much more valuable than he calculated, he will leave some (may substantial) money on the table.
Similarly, many dealers work the greed/fear angle, as well, and do not want to offer the first price because it's possible the seller is a sucker and will take a lot loss.
In many instances, there is a standoff between buyer and seller as a result. For the most part, this is amateurish.
2. Many sellers, and surprisingly some very experienced collector-sellers, do not know where to go to best sell their coins. Often, the best dealer is the one who sold you the coins in the first place, as he is more likely to make a two-way market, knows the special qualities of the coins, and may know what you paid for the coin. If nothing else, the latter piece of information is a good starting point for setting the price.
No doubt, the forum member who has extremely disappointed by the offer received for his barber quarters did not purchase them at the shop where he tried to sell them.
3. Coin stores, though they buy and sell coins, often do not make a two-way market in numismatic coins. A generation ago, many did. The inexperienced person would not necessarily know this.
4. Coin dealers are looking to buy low and sell high in order to stay in business. They often have a very good idea in what the sell price will be (bullion, generic Saints, and other very liquid items), and can adjust their buy price to precisely control their margin. When confronted with uncertainty on the sell side (ie. a collection of raw barber quarters), the buy price has to be very conservative to account for the uncertainty on the sell side. Additionally, a dealer/buyer might take a coin for a "rip" price because he knows he can easily make money on it, rather than a stronger price, which might take more work to move and result in little or no profit (or even a loss), such that the coin is a pass at any higher price.
5. Coin collectors often like to wear the collector and dealer hat interchangeably and often change costumes mid-transaction to suit their purposes. >>
An excellent synopsis, especially well capped with #5. My only issue is when the aformentioned hat changer wants to whine about the results. The Interweb has made way too many people amateur experts (sheepishly added to include myself, with all honesty). >>
I see your point that people wear both hats. BUT, if you are going to wear both hats, when you are wearing the dealer hat you have to play the role of dealer and not feign stupid. >>
I need never feign
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Buyer: What do you want for it?
Seller: $500
Buyer: I'll give you $425 for it.
Seller: Ok, Sold.
This scenario often leads to the buyer wondering how much money he/she gave away, or in other words how low would the seller have gone.
Not just with coins, it's always best for the seller to come up with a number that is the very minimum they will accept for the item, and then add maybe 10%. This gives the seller and buyer some room to negotiate, providing the seller's number is reasonable. Let's look at this scenario again:
Seller: I have a coin I would like to sell.
Buyer: What do you want for it.
Seller: $475
Buyer: I can do $400.
Seller: (Thinks for a momement) Can you go $450?
Buyer: The best I can do is $425.
Seller: Ok, I think I can do that.
If $425 was the least he was willing to accept and was also acceptable to the buyer, both parties should leave happy enough.
You have to remember that dealers have to buy a coin at a price that allows them to sell it at price that will move the item fairly quickly. The longer an item sits in inventory the more expensive the item becomes. If it sits in inventory long enough, the coin becomes a net loss for the dealer, as overhead costs such as lease on the space, paid employees, travel to shows etc get's spread out amongst all his inventory.
Visitor: "Hi, I got some coins from from my dad after he died"
Dealer : "Are you wanting to add to this collection ? "
Customer: "I don't know, I just want to know what they're worth"
Dealer : " I charge $125 per hour and $75 for each subsequent hour, how many coins ?"
Customer: "What ? "
Dealer: "Appraisals require my time and it's more precious than gold"
Customer "Well then I won't take any more of yours"
Dealer: "I have good news"
Customer: "What's that ? "
Dealer : " A book for $12.95 plus a complimentary loupe"
Customer " What good is the book ? "
Dealer : "You can find all the answers you want there and even get an idea of how to grade coins"
Customer : "Really ? "
Dealer: "Honestly ! Would that be cash or credit ? "
I agree with the thread title.
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
Dealer : " A book for $12.95 plus a complimentary loupe"
Customer " What good is the book ? "
Dealer : "You can find all the answers you want there and even get an idea of how to grade coins" >>
What's this magic book that not only teaches you how to grade but also tells you what your coins are currently worth?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Unless the dealer has an immediate resale of the coin, or has a huge retail collector coin business, there is now way he would buy the coin at that price and risk sitting on it for a long time. Dealers make money from turnover. If he cant flip the coin quickly, hes not going to settle for a 10% profit. Remember he has a lot of bills to pay and 10% might not even cover costs.
A collector should probably expect to get Y minus 20-25%. Lets say the dealer has a large Ebay presence. It will cost him 12% just to sell this coin and he wants to make at least 10%. So he has to offer $150 for your $200 coin, otherwise he wont waste his time.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
That works fine with knowledgeable dealers who are frequently in the market price. This does not work for collectors who may enter once every few years or longer. The only logical venue for the collector is to name a price that's too high, otherwise they will surely leave with less than they could have if they attempt to "wholesale price" their coins. And my own experiences and inputs from other sources says that B&M shops routinely offer dirt for raw coins. And it doesn't matter if they're worth $10,000 each or $10 each. 20c-50c on the dollar is probably the norm for all the B&M's lumped together. Of course, there will always be exceptions for those who try to deal fairly. If you get offered 20c on the dollar for a raw choice BU $20 high relief that's thievery imo.
roadrunner
If I knew how much it was worth, I could have given a number X-10%. But I didn't know. Consequently, the conversation ended at that point. >>
How much you "want" for it and knowing what its "worth" are two totally unrelated situations since your "want" price could be hundreds more than what you paid, yet hundreds less than what someone else would pay.
My question wasn't, "how much can I get for this?" It was "how much is it worth?" Purely informational market research for my own reference, as one adult to another. Nothing more.
If you do not know what you would be willing to accept or how much you "want", why even offer it for sale?
I never offered it for sale. That wasn't my reason for asking what it was worth. Don't dealers consult each other without having any intention to buy or sell? Is there some reason I shouldn't be able to have that same kind of conversation with a dealer? In my business, I am a resource for my customers who may not know as much about my product or my market as I do. I earn my customers' business by making myself useful, not by playing games.
The old advice of "know what you are buying before you buy it" can also be interpreted as "know what you are selling before you sell it". Otherwise, you'll never really know whether or not you are receiving a fair offer.
Exactly correct. That is exactly why I was asking, "How much is it worth?" I knew everything else - how I came to own it, who certified it and when, where it came from and of course, the population reports.
B-T-W, the correct answer in any case where the dealer doesn't know the answer is, "I really don't know." If the dealer wants any business (from me at least), this would lead directly to the dealer fielding my next adult-to-adult question along the lines of, "can you find out, or is this really out there?"
Playing games is for non-professionals. If a guy is knowledgeable and/or helpful, the conversation continues. I have no expectations of getting something for nothing - just a fair price and a continuing relationship based on a good exchange.
I should be able to approach any dealer with a question as the basis for exploring a future relationship. How well could we possibly work together? Why do I post on these boards? One of the reasons, besides the common interest in coins is to "troll" for potential dealer contacts who I might want to work with on finding a coin or in selling a coin one day.
Does that make sense? It does to me.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Almost all dealer transactions occur with one offering a coin to another and the SELLER naming the price (which leads to Pass/Play/Negotiate).
That works fine with knowledgeable dealers who are frequently in the market price. This does not work for collectors who may enter once every few years or longer. The only logical venue for the collector is to name a price that's too high, otherwise they will surely leave with less than they could have if they attempt to "wholesale price" their coins. And my own experiences and inputs from other sources says that B&M shops routinely offer dirt for raw coins. And it doesn't matter if they're worth $10,000 each or $10 each. 20c-50c on the dollar is probably the norm for all the B&M's lumped together. Of course, there will always be exceptions for those who try to deal fairly. If you get offered 20c on the dollar for a raw choice BU $20 high relief that's thievery imo.
roadrunner >>
There is the problem, I would guess some of the people on this board (especially those who regularly complain about dealers) are under the illusion that they are knowledgeable even though they are not. Because of that, they expect to be treated like a knowledgeable dealer who is up in the market, even though they have no clue about reality.