You fail to have all the facts when you present your argument -
did you realize that cancel boxes WERE available literally minutes before the price adjustment was made earlier than expected on Wednesday?
did you realize that those cancel boxes ALL were removed just BEFORE the price change - and most likely had NOTHING to do with the orders being "picked".......as I confirmed that the orders were not being picked at that time.
as for your argument about "the price being raised on an order not shipped", let's keep this simple.....have you EVER bought an item at any RETAIL establishment where PRICE PROTECTION was promised and they RAISED your price?
NO. I don't think so. It doesn't work like that. In almost EVERY case where price protection is offered, the price will not be increased, but if a DECREASE were to occur BEFORE you are shipped or physically take the item from the establishment, you are afforded the LOWER price.
the card being "hit" in your post is only an authorization. It is not the final charge. That is concluded when the item is shipped.
If you were around for the 2001 Buffalo Dollar C & C set, your would realize as well that sometimes the mint may take an order, authorize for that quantity, then LIMIT orders to some number less than your standing order - and charge you the lesser amt based on quantity shipped.
The order is not completed and charged until shipped.
The USM pulled a fast one here, they didnt want mass cancellations and re-orders - so cancel boxes went away before the price decrease.
I did hear of another member who placed a order well into the second week (late Tues/early Wed AM) that was able to cancel, but it was the exception rather than the rule....
ok, so 99.9% of cancel boxes were gone.... what is the difference?
My cancel boxes were gone right before the price change, as I thought would occur as to prevent the onslaught of cancellations.
The Mint has become more proactive in protecting themselves from cancellations (by putting the expected ship dates out much further than the ACTUAL ship dates),
and by, in this instance, assuring the cancel boxes are gone prior to the price change and the time to actually process the order took much longer than the typical I have experienced.
I have a hard time feeling badly for an organization that has over and over and over, been EXTREMELY unpredicatable. Maybe that is the point, though............
I will say, I do appreciate the US Mint as a whole and the opportunities they have given me to pursue my love of coins with a few windfalls along the way.
well, as the USM is always trying to elevate itself to a "World Class Organization" and act on par with leading retailers (as they have compared themselves to in the past)
they should be willing to "do the right thing" and grant the same price to all orders that were not shipped prior to the price change.
it is "the right thing to do" - and I do believe they care about how they do business.
This is all part of the gamble with the mint. The thing was the proof had already sold 8000 coins way prior to the price reduction so it is possible the coins were sold out already and the people that changed the price were clueless about what was left.
<< <i>well, as the USM is always trying to elevate itself to a "World Class Organization" and act on par with leading retailers (as they have compared themselves to in the past)
they should be willing to "do the right thing" and grant the same price to all orders that were not shipped prior to the price change.
it is "the right thing to do" - and I do believe they care about how they do business. >>
No. By that token, if the same situation occurred when the price is adjusted upward, then you are also saying the mint should increase the price on orders not shipped. They won't do that, they shouldn't do that, nor would folks stand for it.
>>
Excellent point! A deal is a deal. If you can't stand by your side of the bargain, don't make the deal!
And stop WHINING!!!!!!!
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
The USM prices in an adequate profit margin - naturally much more at 1892 than at 1792.......but nevertheless, a profit.
The point here is that they seem to always want to "act" and be "counted" as a premier retailer of products for their customers, just like private organizations, a point our last few Mint Director's hoped to fulfill.
They have come a long way, but they still come up short with product pricing - IMO - the whole model they use - but especially in areas of "price protection".....
When you sell a product, and you havent delivered (shipped) the product to your customer - and you adjust the price downward for any new orders.......the proper thing to do is adjust the price downwards on orders taken but not yet shipped. This is how a large "world class" retailer works. Price protection protects the purchaser from price increases and awards them with lower prices even within a certain period of time......since this is precious metal I could see not adjusting a price after the item has been shipped.
If you want to be a world class retailer, start acting like one.
Show us where the mint has a stated/printed "price guarantee". Not where they have the return privileges.
It's pretty simple if you ask me.....the pricing model, of paying the price you agree to when you make the order, hasn't changed in the 8 years I have been buying from the mint. You buy it, the price is too high for you, then don't buy it or return it within the stated time.
I guess it is just more fun to whine about how something is, and has been, and will be, then it is to accept it and move on.
If you were buying for your OWN collection, to have and to hold for awhile, then I would think the $100 isn't that big of a deal. If you were buying to flip, then I can understand the $100 being part of the profit margin.
As for the argument of them wanting to be a premier retailer so they should give a price refund, I did laugh at that one. If they were trying to be a retailer, they wouldn't sell bullion to just certain dealers, yet, they do, don't they?
There are MANY things to complain about about the mint. TONS of them. This one makes me laugh because someone has agreed to a stated price and then wants the good (if the price goes down) but doesn't want to pay up (if the price goes up). Whining about the mint making a profit as the reason they should institute new changes for this is quite the silly reasoning.
<< <i>If you want to be a world class retailer, start acting like one. >>
We have to limit that to precious metal retailers in this instance.
I understand you being upset. It would seem relatively simple to have an APMEX type set-up that continuously adjusts pricing to the current spot price on bullion products (although some consider proofs numismatic).
A simple spot +20% for precious metal proofs would work, but the issue of returns and cancellations always rears it's ugly head.
How about the above model with a 10% restocking fee?
<< <i>This one makes me laugh because someone has agreed to a stated price and then wants the good (if the price goes down) but doesn't want to pay up (if the price goes up). Whining about the mint making a profit as the reason they should institute new changes for this is quite the silly reasoning. >>
Consumers and store pricing doesn't work the same both ways. When a store commits to selling a product at (for example) $1892 and the price then goes up, well the store has already committed to the transaction terms at the lower price and must honor that under contract law.
When a store commits to selling a product at (for example) $1892 and the price then goes down, the same transaction terms and obligations are still effect; however, the message the store is sending is that we'll sell it to Customer A at $1892 because he bought yesterday but Customer B gets $100 cheaper because he bought a day later. For this reason MOST RETAILERS will gladly reduce the price if the Customer A's order hasn't shipped or he hasn't taken delivery or if he simply asks. If a store is willing to sell a product to NEW customers cheaper than to old customers who haven't received their order yet, why not extend the new price to them too? Especially if they can simply return and re-order and achieve the same result through your existing return policies? Why hassle the customer (and add to the store's workload) more than necessary?
Well, there's always the 2011 series...and may I suggest placing your order early and not canceling it right before the sellout to try and save yourself a measly hundred bucks..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
What those of you who are whining about this, and thinking the USMint is a retailer, are forgetting is that the USMint is an authorized MONOPOLY! When you go to a store, if you don't like the price, you go elsewhere. That is why the retailer will do a price protection if the price goes down....to keep your business.
If you don't want to deal with the USMint's policies, including the price policies, then don't buy there. BUT, and you guys already know this, that means you either go without the thing you wanted or you go to a reseller (someone who DID deal with the mint and their policy and now THEY are looking for a PROFIT). So, you will likely pay even more than you would have from the mint.
Remember, they are NOT a retailer like you are used to (and, you guys know this). They do not NEED to have any price protection in their business. Heck, some of you should remember before their 7 day adjustment of the price based on bullion pricing, where their price would remain in effect even if the bullion price plummeted. I remember that. What was it.....$2000+ on some platinum products when platinum dropped $600-$700+ per ounce?
Would you prefer that? Did you buy them at that time? You wouldn't have to worry about a price adjustment, now would you?
<< <i>I placed only one order, but it was after the price dropped to $1795. It's still showing as backordered, but I wonder if I'm going to get someone's returned item. Ryan, would you mind sharing your order number? >>
Order number was 35024xxx, 8-19 at 3:35am. >>
Thanks, my order is 350239xx, so I'm just before your order.
"It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
<< <i>There are MANY things to complain about about the mint. TONS of them. This one makes me laugh because someone has agreed to a stated price and then wants the good (if the price goes down) but doesn't want to pay up (if the price goes up). Whining about the mint making a profit as the reason they should institute new changes for this is quite the silly reasoning. >>
Most modern coins including but not limited to bullion (raw or certified) fluctuate in price continuously based on numerous factors. I always tell people they are not buying a lawn mower at Walmart or Sears and should not expect that level of protection regarding refunds, returns. Exchanges for an identicle item should not be a problem within a reasonable timeframe. After 6 years of online retailing I still haven't had anyone come back and offer to give me the difference when an item they bought went up in value later that week or even later that day, and we've seen increases that mattered, 10% 50%, even double. Ahhh..... but many have complained about price drops. What's up with that?
My company offers a 3 day return at our website (except pure bullion which we sell very little) on most items for any reason unless stated otherwise. If the item does not contain a precious metal the return period is 7 days. On eBay we often offer no return because the competition is so brutal that someone usually comes along and undercuts us even though we were the lowest at time of listing. Then we get returns purely because they bought it elsewhere for less. If I was selling Morgan Dollars in PF65 I would make it 30 days as I believe the value of such an item is more likely not to fluctuate much if any in that time period. Bottom line, when buying bullion or bullion related items that carry some collector value, you should buy knowing that the price will fluctuate and perhaps immediately after your purchase. MCM bought roughly 500 0f the 2010 proof plats and most were at the higher (1892) number plus a premium averaging $75 a coin. Was I happy when the mint dropped the price? No. Did I think they did anything wrong? No. That's the way the cookie crumbles.
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
<< <i>Order number was 35024xxx, 8-19 at 3:35am. >>
Thanks, my order is 350239xx, so I'm just before your order. >>
Guess it doesn't matter now. My order number is 35024884. They actually sent the sold-out notification today, on a government holiday. Interestingly they say that a mint representative will help me find an alternative item. Really? They have other platinum coins they can sell me?
I'm kind of glad the Mint doesn't operate like a comparable retail business. How many would be happy if they charged a restocking fee? Some of those are as high as 20-25%. Just look at any of the bullion companies and the Mint's policies don't seem so bad... market loss policy anyone? So be careful what you wish for (especially if you flip or mine for PF/MS 70's).
In case someone here hasn't dealt with a PM dealer, below is typical cancellation policy (dealer name removed):
" Can I cancel my order?
Once we have issued a confirmation number, all prices are locked-in whether buying from us or selling to us. It is not our intention to enter into buying and/or selling transactions, accepting the risks involved only to have them canceled. However, we realize rare situations happen where orders need to be canceled. Should you elect to cancel and/or offset your order, you must do so during normal business hours of 8:00 – 4:00 CST Monday – Friday. All cancellations are subject our market loss policy plus a $35.00 (USD) cancellation fee. Cancellations may only be approved over the telephone, at which time you will be given a cancellation number. At that time, if any market loss to XXXXXXXXXXXXX has occurred, it will be calculated and added to the $35.00 (USD) cancellation fee. If applicable, you may elect to pay any market loss by credit card at that time or, we will invoice you in which you will have thirty days to pay the amount due in full. No future orders may be permitted until any market loss is paid in full. Any market gain on cancellations shall remain the property of XXXXXXXXXXX."
Perhaps someone who hasn't returned one yet could sell to you at cost instead of returning it?
or you could ask to be moved to the top of the wait list in case someone returns one to the mint. you were, after all, not on the wait list to begin with.
We need a new emoticon showing a bottle pouring WHINE!
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
<< <i>Would you take someone's returns? Perhaps someone who hasn't returned one yet could sell to you at cost instead of returning it? or you could ask to be moved to the top of the wait list in case someone returns one to the mint. you were, after all, not on the wait list to begin with. >>
Yes, I would take someone's return assuming it is not an obvious PR68 or lower.
This discussion deviated from my main concerns which are not so much the mint's policies. My complaint is the lack of information that led to me making my decisions, the delay it took for them to cancel my order, and then the delay it took to notify me that my order was canceled.
<< <i>I had placed an order on 8-18 (morning) for an APE at $1892. But at 3am on 8-19, I noticed they were now $100 cheaper at $1792, so I canceled my Thursday order and placed a new order. All week the order has been "in process" and had an expected ship date that moved every day. I log in today and see that the order has been canceled and it says "Item no longer available." What kind of crap is this?
There was no warning about being on a wait list when I placed my order. All indications were that they had these in stock or available. And now they cancel my order without warning or notice? I guess it's something I should be used to by now. >>
For the many newbies here -- you have to have some experience with how the USM has transformed their selling/pricing and shipping practices over the year's from a paper only by mail, to phone, to online ordering
and then the commitment and publicly stated intent to "be like any world-class online retailer for order placement, pricing, and shipping" by USM Director's going back to Philip Diehl,
well if you want to be world-class retailer, you have to start acting like one. That goes for pricing and common "price protection" type policies.
this is not like "any other precious metals shop". This is a retail priced operation. The premiums are huge, not a small % over spot like the large precious metals wholesalers. And the big retail operations dont charge restocking fees, that's for the middle of the road so-called retailers.
Since the mint can't defend itself I will play devils advocate and try to say what I would guess they feel on this.
1] The mint has high expenses, they have to manufacture the coins in addition to selling them using government workers at full salary including redundancy of positions, They also must design the coins in addition to all this and somehow convince people to purchase it. 2] They also have the extra risk of fluctuating metal prices. This risk has been reduced with the new fee structure however in the event of a large price collapse in metals prices they could be stuck with massive losses, especially if they adopted a low price guarantee until shipped. 3] They have bad inventory control, so cannot be as nimble on pricing as some wish. Accurate sales numbers and final sales numbers may not be ready for years. Also people that try gaming the ordering process take the risk of losing an order if the inventory is not properly updated. 4]While revenues have increased due to rising metal prices, sales items have been reduced due to loss of numismatic products. This has lowered overall profitability. 5]The wheels turn slowly in the government, get back to us in 5 years with any other ideas.
if you are going to talk the talk, be prepared to walk the walk.
that's where the USM has failed.
Guys - i'm surprised at your comments......it's about principle, not the $100.
Multiple USM Director's have spoken publicly about them attempting to "transform" into a "world class retailer/organization"............this is what we are talking about here, it's just another example of how they have come up short.
if you are going to talk the talk, be prepared to walk the walk.
that's where the USM has failed. >>
They set prices, they take orders. They ship until they run out. It's so simple even a cave man can do it. I was an active buyer of platinum, considered several options when they lowered the price, canceling an order wasn't one of them. It seemed pretty clear to me that if I canceled an order, there was a good chance they would run out before it was filled. I don't know what walk and talk you are talking about. They take orders and they fill them until they run out. The rest are canceled. Nothing new. Nothing failed. --Jerry
Confucious say: "When someone say 'It's not the money, it's the principle!,' it's the money....."
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
The problem is I didn't think it was a gamble since the waitlist notice was not present. There were NO indications that inventory was an issue. >>
I feel for the poster.It stinks BUT I suppose anyone who orders mint products and say for cosmetic reasons returns the product , for an exchange, might be in the same boat if there is a sell out.An y one care to discuss that scenario???
<< <i>I feel for the poster.It stinks BUT I suppose anyone who orders mint products and say for cosmetic reasons returns the product , for an exchange, might be in the same boat if there is a sell out.An y one care to discuss that scenario??? >>
I had this happen a few years ago where I received silver eagles with milk spots, but they had since sold out. The rep told me I could return them but chances are they would not be able to replace them and I would get a refund. At least that time I was given adequate information to make my decision.
The problem is I didn't think it was a gamble since the waitlist notice was not present. There were NO indications that inventory was an issue. >>
>>
The 10,000 coin sales limit was widely disseminated.
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
Without reading the entire thread, I believe that the US Mint Web Site is set up on a fiirst come first serve basis. This is the way it was with the 2006 Anniversary SAE sets.
The smart thing to do would have been to have called the US Mint "before" you cancelled as there may have already been too many orders accumulated. Given the fact that it computer driven also means that 500 orders could have been processed between when you cancelled and when you reordered. Maybe you weren't the only one to notice the price change.
At any rate, ragging on their policies merely makes one feel good as it will do little to change them. They DO control the market on these and its their game.
Next time, call BEFORE you cancel. Maybe the agent can do some magic.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Did the average collector know the 8000 number of sales by Sunday(?), and that tons of flippers were waiting on the $100 drop? I don't know that they did, but those who make $1900 investments definitely should. Sorry to say, that cancellation was not a wise bet.
PS: My cancel box was there after the price change. That's how I canceled the other 4.
Comments
You fail to have all the facts when you present your argument -
did you realize that cancel boxes WERE available literally minutes before the price adjustment was made earlier than expected on Wednesday?
did you realize that those cancel boxes ALL were removed just BEFORE the price change - and most likely had NOTHING to do with the orders being "picked".......as I confirmed that the orders were not being picked at that time.
as for your argument about "the price being raised on an order not shipped", let's keep this simple.....have you EVER bought an item at any RETAIL establishment where PRICE PROTECTION was promised and they RAISED your price?
NO. I don't think so. It doesn't work like that. In almost EVERY case where price protection is offered, the price will not be increased, but if a DECREASE were to occur BEFORE you are shipped or physically take the item from the establishment, you are afforded the LOWER price.
the card being "hit" in your post is only an authorization. It is not the final charge. That is concluded when the item is shipped.
If you were around for the 2001 Buffalo Dollar C & C set, your would realize as well that sometimes the mint may take an order, authorize for that quantity, then LIMIT orders to some number less than your standing order - and charge you the lesser amt based on quantity shipped.
The order is not completed and charged until shipped.
The USM pulled a fast one here, they didnt want mass cancellations and re-orders - so cancel boxes went away before the price decrease.
It's just bad business.
<< <i>...did you realize that those cancel boxes ALL were removed just BEFORE the price change... >>
How did the OP cancel his order the next day then?
those cancel boxes were gone......
I did hear of another member who placed a order well into the second week (late Tues/early Wed AM) that was able to cancel, but it was the exception rather than the rule....
ok, so 99.9% of cancel boxes were gone.... what is the difference?
The Mint has become more proactive in protecting themselves from cancellations (by putting the expected ship dates out much further than the ACTUAL ship dates),
and by, in this instance, assuring the cancel boxes are gone prior to the price change and the time to actually process the order took much longer than the typical I have experienced.
I have a hard time feeling badly for an organization that has over and over and over, been EXTREMELY unpredicatable. Maybe that is the point, though............
I will say, I do appreciate the US Mint as a whole and the opportunities they have given me to pursue my love of coins with a few windfalls along the way.
Miles
they should be willing to "do the right thing" and grant the same price to all orders that were not shipped prior to the price change.
it is "the right thing to do" - and I do believe they care about how they do business.
<< <i>well, as the USM is always trying to elevate itself to a "World Class Organization" and act on par with leading retailers (as they have compared themselves to in the past)
they should be willing to "do the right thing" and grant the same price to all orders that were not shipped prior to the price change.
it is "the right thing to do" - and I do believe they care about how they do business. >>
and add on to the price when gold rises?
<< <i>
No. By that token, if the same situation occurred when the price is adjusted upward, then you are also saying the mint should increase the price on orders not shipped. They won't do that, they shouldn't do that, nor would folks stand for it.
>>
Excellent point! A deal is a deal. If you can't stand by your side of the bargain, don't make the deal!
And stop WHINING!!!!!!!
<< <i>"And add what on to the price..." >>
Guys, I'm not going to go thru this again.
The USM prices in an adequate profit margin - naturally much more at 1892 than at 1792.......but nevertheless, a profit.
The point here is that they seem to always want to "act" and be "counted" as a premier retailer of products for their customers, just like private organizations, a point our last few Mint Director's hoped to fulfill.
They have come a long way, but they still come up short with product pricing - IMO - the whole model they use - but especially in areas of "price protection".....
When you sell a product, and you havent delivered (shipped) the product to your customer - and you adjust the price downward for any new orders.......the proper thing to do is adjust the price downwards on orders taken but not yet shipped. This is how a large "world class" retailer works. Price protection protects the purchaser from price increases and awards them with lower prices even within a certain period of time......since this is precious metal I could see not adjusting a price after the item has been shipped.
If you want to be a world class retailer, start acting like one.
Not where they have the return privileges.
It's pretty simple if you ask me.....the pricing model, of paying the price you agree to when you make the order, hasn't changed in the 8 years I have been buying from the mint.
You buy it, the price is too high for you, then don't buy it or return it within the stated time.
I guess it is just more fun to whine about how something is, and has been, and will be, then it is to accept it and move on.
If you were buying for your OWN collection, to have and to hold for awhile, then I would think the $100 isn't that big of a deal. If you were buying to flip, then I can understand the $100 being part of the profit margin.
As for the argument of them wanting to be a premier retailer so they should give a price refund, I did laugh at that one. If they were trying to be a retailer, they wouldn't sell bullion to just certain dealers, yet, they do, don't they?
There are MANY things to complain about about the mint. TONS of them. This one makes me laugh because someone has agreed to a stated price and then wants the good (if the price goes down) but doesn't want to pay up (if the price goes up). Whining about the mint making a profit as the reason they should institute new changes for this is quite the silly reasoning.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>If you want to be a world class retailer, start acting like one. >>
We have to limit that to precious metal retailers in this instance.
I understand you being upset. It would seem relatively simple to have an APMEX type set-up that continuously adjusts pricing to the current spot price on bullion products (although some consider proofs numismatic).
A simple spot +20% for precious metal proofs would work, but the issue of returns and cancellations always rears it's ugly head.
How about the above model with a 10% restocking fee?
<< <i>This one makes me laugh because someone has agreed to a stated price and then wants the good (if the price goes down) but doesn't want to pay up (if the price goes up). Whining about the mint making a profit as the reason they should institute new changes for this is quite the silly reasoning. >>
Consumers and store pricing doesn't work the same both ways. When a store commits to selling a product at (for example) $1892 and the price then goes up, well the store has already committed to the transaction terms at the lower price and must honor that under contract law.
When a store commits to selling a product at (for example) $1892 and the price then goes down, the same transaction terms and obligations are still effect; however, the message the store is sending is that we'll sell it to Customer A at $1892 because he bought yesterday but Customer B gets $100 cheaper because he bought a day later. For this reason MOST RETAILERS will gladly reduce the price if the Customer A's order hasn't shipped or he hasn't taken delivery or if he simply asks. If a store is willing to sell a product to NEW customers cheaper than to old customers who haven't received their order yet, why not extend the new price to them too? Especially if they can simply return and re-order and achieve the same result through your existing return policies? Why hassle the customer (and add to the store's workload) more than necessary?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
When you go to a store, if you don't like the price, you go elsewhere. That is why the retailer will do a price protection if the price goes down....to keep your business.
If you don't want to deal with the USMint's policies, including the price policies, then don't buy there. BUT, and you guys already know this, that means you either go without the thing you wanted or you go to a reseller (someone who DID deal with the mint and their policy and now THEY are looking for a PROFIT). So, you will likely pay even more than you would have from the mint.
Remember, they are NOT a retailer like you are used to (and, you guys know this). They do not NEED to have any price protection in their business. Heck, some of you should remember before their 7 day adjustment of the price based on bullion pricing, where their price would remain in effect even if the bullion price plummeted. I remember that. What was it.....$2000+ on some platinum products when platinum dropped $600-$700+ per ounce?
Would you prefer that? Did you buy them at that time? You wouldn't have to worry about a price adjustment, now would you?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>I placed only one order, but it was after the price dropped to $1795. It's still showing as backordered, but I wonder if I'm going to get someone's returned item. Ryan, would you mind sharing your order number? >>
Order number was 35024xxx, 8-19 at 3:35am. >>
Thanks, my order is 350239xx, so I'm just before your order.
<< <i>There are MANY things to complain about about the mint. TONS of them. This one makes me laugh because someone has agreed to a stated price and then wants the good (if the price goes down) but doesn't want to pay up (if the price goes up). Whining about the mint making a profit as the reason they should institute new changes for this is quite the silly reasoning. >>
Most modern coins including but not limited to bullion (raw or certified) fluctuate in price continuously based on numerous factors. I always tell people they are not buying a lawn mower at Walmart or Sears and should not expect that level of protection regarding refunds, returns. Exchanges for an identicle item should not be a problem within a reasonable timeframe. After 6 years of online retailing I still haven't had anyone come back and offer to give me the difference when an item they bought went up in value later that week or even later that day, and we've seen increases that mattered, 10% 50%, even double. Ahhh..... but many have complained about price drops. What's up with that?
My company offers a 3 day return at our website (except pure bullion which we sell very little) on most items for any reason unless stated otherwise. If the item does not contain a precious metal the return period is 7 days. On eBay we often offer no return because the competition is so brutal that someone usually comes along and undercuts us even though we were the lowest at time of listing. Then we get returns purely because they bought it elsewhere for less. If I was selling Morgan Dollars in PF65 I would make it 30 days as I believe the value of such an item is more likely not to fluctuate much if any in that time period. Bottom line, when buying bullion or bullion related items that carry some collector value, you should buy knowing that the price will fluctuate and perhaps immediately after your purchase. MCM bought roughly 500 0f the 2010 proof plats and most were at the higher (1892) number plus a premium averaging $75 a coin. Was I happy when the mint dropped the price? No. Did I think they did anything wrong? No. That's the way the cookie crumbles.
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
<< <i>Order number was 35024xxx, 8-19 at 3:35am. >>
Thanks, my order is 350239xx, so I'm just before your order. >>
Guess it doesn't matter now. My order number is 35024884. They actually sent the sold-out notification today, on a government holiday. Interestingly they say that a mint representative will help me find an alternative item. Really? They have other platinum coins they can sell me?
Order number: 3502269x Order Date: 08/18/2010 at 02:34 PM
My 5 pcs were delivered 8 days after ordering and I did get the lower ($1,792) price.
The $4.95 charge for UPS Next Day Air with $9K in insurance is a good deal.
Anyway, one piece went to John Maben Rare Coins, for which they sent a $1,950 check FedEx Next Day Air (great service).
The 4 pc. balance of my order is at PCGS now. I'll post my grades asap but imagine it'll be near the end of the month.
In case someone here hasn't dealt with a PM dealer, below is typical cancellation policy (dealer name removed):
" Can I cancel my order?
Once we have issued a confirmation number, all prices are locked-in whether buying from us or selling to us. It is not our intention to enter into buying and/or selling transactions, accepting the risks involved only to have them canceled. However, we realize rare situations happen where orders need to be canceled. Should you elect to cancel and/or offset your order, you must do so during normal business hours of 8:00 – 4:00 CST Monday – Friday. All cancellations are subject our market loss policy plus a $35.00 (USD) cancellation fee. Cancellations may only be approved over the telephone, at which time you will be given a cancellation number. At that time, if any market loss to XXXXXXXXXXXXX has occurred, it will be calculated and added to the $35.00 (USD) cancellation fee. If applicable, you may elect to pay any market loss by credit card at that time or, we will invoice you in which you will have thirty days to pay the amount due in full. No future orders may be permitted until any market loss is paid in full. Any market gain on cancellations shall remain the property of XXXXXXXXXXX."
Perhaps someone who hasn't returned one yet could sell to you at cost instead of returning it?
or you could ask to be moved to the top of the wait list in case someone returns one to the mint. you were, after all, not on the wait list to begin with.
<< <i>Would you take someone's returns?
Perhaps someone who hasn't returned one yet could sell to you at cost instead of returning it?
or you could ask to be moved to the top of the wait list in case someone returns one to the mint. you were, after all, not on the wait list to begin with. >>
Yes, I would take someone's return assuming it is not an obvious PR68 or lower.
This discussion deviated from my main concerns which are not so much the mint's policies. My complaint is the lack of information that led to me making my decisions, the delay it took for them to cancel my order, and then the delay it took to notify me that my order was canceled.
<< <i>I had placed an order on 8-18 (morning) for an APE at $1892. But at 3am on 8-19, I noticed they were now $100 cheaper at $1792, so I canceled my Thursday order and placed a new order. All week the order has been "in process" and had an expected ship date that moved every day. I log in today and see that the order has been canceled and it says "Item no longer available." What kind of crap is this?
There was no warning about being on a wait list when I placed my order. All indications were that they had these in stock or available. And now they cancel my order without warning or notice? I guess it's something I should be used to by now. >>
Mine too.
and then the commitment and publicly stated intent to "be like any world-class online retailer for order placement, pricing, and shipping" by USM Director's going back to Philip Diehl,
well if you want to be world-class retailer, you have to start acting like one. That goes for pricing and common "price protection" type policies.
this is not like "any other precious metals shop". This is a retail priced operation. The premiums are huge, not a small % over spot like the large precious metals wholesalers. And the big retail operations dont charge restocking fees, that's for the middle of the road so-called retailers.
ProofCollections post was on the money.
1] The mint has high expenses, they have to manufacture the coins in addition to selling them using government workers at full salary including redundancy of positions, They also must design the coins in addition to all this and somehow convince people to purchase it.
2] They also have the extra risk of fluctuating metal prices. This risk has been reduced with the new fee structure however in the event of a large price collapse in metals prices they could be stuck with massive losses, especially if they adopted a low price guarantee until shipped.
3] They have bad inventory control, so cannot be as nimble on pricing as some wish. Accurate sales numbers and final sales numbers may not be ready for years. Also people that try gaming the ordering process take the risk of losing an order if the inventory is not properly updated.
4]While revenues have increased due to rising metal prices, sales items have been reduced due to loss of numismatic products. This has lowered overall profitability.
5]The wheels turn slowly in the government, get back to us in 5 years with any other ideas.
if you are going to talk the talk, be prepared to walk the walk.
that's where the USM has failed.
Guys - i'm surprised at your comments......it's about principle, not the $100.
Multiple USM Director's have spoken publicly about them attempting to "transform" into a "world class retailer/organization"............this is what we are talking about here, it's just another example of how they have come up short.
<< <i>well you know what they say
if you are going to talk the talk, be prepared to walk the walk.
that's where the USM has failed. >>
They set prices, they take orders. They ship until they run out. It's so simple even a cave man can do it. I was an active buyer of platinum, considered several options when they lowered the price, canceling an order wasn't one of them. It seemed pretty clear to me that if I canceled an order, there was a good chance they would run out before it was filled. I don't know what walk and talk you are talking about. They take orders and they fill them until they run out. The rest are canceled. Nothing new. Nothing failed. --Jerry
Oh well......once I hear about cave men, I'm done talking.
And to be clear, Confucious say many stupid things.
<< <i>
<< <i>You took a gamble, and lost. >>
The problem is I didn't think it was a gamble since the waitlist notice was not present. There were NO indications that inventory was an issue. >>
I feel for the poster.It stinks BUT I suppose anyone who orders mint products and say for cosmetic reasons returns the product , for an exchange, might be in the same boat if there is a sell out.An y one care to discuss that scenario???
<< <i>And to be clear, Confucius say many stupid things. >>
.....and that reminds me of a joke..........
Confucius say, "Panties not best thing on earth",
"Panties NEXT TO best thing on earth!"
<< <i>I feel for the poster.It stinks BUT I suppose anyone who orders mint products and say for cosmetic reasons returns the product , for an exchange, might be in the same boat if there is a sell out.An y one care to discuss that scenario??? >>
I had this happen a few years ago where I received silver eagles with milk spots, but they had since sold out. The rep told me I could return them but chances are they would not be able to replace them and I would get a refund. At least that time I was given adequate information to make my decision.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>You took a gamble, and lost. >>
The problem is I didn't think it was a gamble since the waitlist notice was not present. There were NO indications that inventory was an issue. >>
>>
The 10,000 coin sales limit was widely disseminated.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>You took a gamble, and lost. >>
The problem is I didn't think it was a gamble since the waitlist notice was not present. There were NO indications that inventory was an issue. >>
>>
The 10,000 coin sales limit was widely disseminated. >>
I think that, unless Moy made a personal call and gave the information prior to any sale, then there would still be a whining thread ...
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
The smart thing to do would have been to have called the US Mint "before" you cancelled as there may have already been too many orders accumulated. Given the fact that it computer driven also means that 500 orders could have been processed between when you cancelled and when you reordered. Maybe you weren't the only one to notice the price change.
At any rate, ragging on their policies merely makes one feel good as it will do little to change them. They DO control the market on these and its their game.
Next time, call BEFORE you cancel. Maybe the agent can do some magic.
The name is LEE!
PS: My cancel box was there after the price change. That's how I canceled the other 4.