Mint Canceled my 2010 APE order: Item No Longer Available

ProofCollection

I had placed an order on 8-18 (morning) for an APE at $1892. But at 3am on 8-19, I noticed they were now $100 cheaper at $1792, so I canceled my Thursday order and placed a new order. All week the order has been "in process" and had an expected ship date that moved every day. I log in today and see that the order has been canceled and it says "Item no longer available." What kind of crap is this?

There was no warning about being on a wait list when I placed my order. All indications were that they had these in stock or available. And now they cancel my order without warning or notice? I guess it's something I should be used to by now.

MsMorrisine

That could be a sign that the thing went off sale overnight, but no one was home to update the page.

Perhaps you can talk of not being on the waitlist... and you know there have been returns...

(but with the contractors running the 800-USA-MINT.... I wouldn't hope for much)

Bochiman

You took a gamble, and lost.
The price, likely automated, dropped. However, they likely hit their threshold for the max mintage+, and you went into the queue when you re-ordered.
Since orders were handled/shipped, they hit their max before getting to you.

Others kept their orders and got them.

This is how the mint game is played. Not saying it's right, not saying it's wrong. It just is.

TomB

The time period between the price drop and sellout was rather small, if I recall correctly, so your oder was likely taken after all the coins were spoken for.

MsMorrisine

and this is the first sign that they all shipped before the fisrt strike cut-off.

I wonder if PCGS removes the date and deems them all FS.

RedHerring

EDIT: I just re-read the OP.


FYI: My brother-in-law tried to order on 08/20 (Saturday) and got the "Wait List" message. He did not order.

NitroCruiser

<< <i>and this is the first sign that they all shipped before the fisrt strike cut-off.

I wonder if PCGS removes the date and deems them all FS. >>



It would seem the right thing to do. Of course it highlights the FS nonsense in a big way.

ProofCollection

<< <i>You took a gamble, and lost. >>



The problem is I didn't think it was a gamble since the waitlist notice was not present. There were NO indications that inventory was an issue.

MsMorrisine

<< <i>

<< <i>You took a gamble, and lost. >>



The problem is I didn't think it was a gamble since the waitlist notice was not present. There were NO indications that inventory was an issue. >>




You'd hope it would move to "sold out" or "wait list" once inventory hit 0....

but, from what I can gather, the sales web site is under different control from the contractors at 800-USA-MINT. In fact, they seem pretty clueless about how things "go live" from a past problem I had.

fivecents

I have already received my coin.

My girl friend ordered her coin hours later on 8/18/20 at 6:20 PM per her order history. Her order shows "Your order request is in process" and "1 unit back ordered. Expect to ship 9/10/11. So if she does recieve her coin, which I doubt she will, these will not all qualify for FS at PCGS.

mbogoman

You can have mine. It's for sale on the BST...

jmdm1194

<< <i>You can have mine. It's for sale on the BST... >>

Bochiman

<< <i>

<< <i>You took a gamble, and lost. >>



The problem is I didn't think it was a gamble since the waitlist notice was not present. There were NO indications that inventory was an issue. >>



Look at the "waitlist" notice as a courtesy and not something that you should expect to be immediately available.
I still look at it as "you took a gamble in canceling to save $100, and you lost".

Not saying I wouldn't have done that (well, I would probably have ordered another one and dealt with things), but that is just me.

ProofCollection

How can it be gambling if there's no perception or indication of risk?

If there is no link between the ordering system and inventory system in this day and age, there are some serious problems at the US Mint.

Maybe they canceled it as a conspiracy because they didn't want to sell for $100 less?

coinguy1

<< <i>..... And now they cancel my order without warning or notice? >>

Is that any different than the manner in which you canceled your previous order?

botanist

You certainly deserve sympathy for having been badly mistreated by the mint. Obviously their software needs retooling to reflect inventory in regard to after-hours orders, and for orders placed towards the end of available supply. But they also have difficulty in anticipating such things as cancellations and returns.

In this case, you were just a little late pulling the trigger the second time. The dates and times of sale and price adjustment were abnormal. First of all, the mint began sales of the one ounce platinum proof a day early, on the afternoon of August 11th, instead of the scheduled Thursday August 12th, but without explanation. On Sunday August 15th somebody discovered the mint claimed to have had already sold about 8500 of the 10000 mintage at $1892, and that person kindly provided the information to this PCGS forum. In order to not risk getting shut out, it was advised to buy at the higher 1892, and not to wait for the price reevaluation which would normally be expected Thursday August 19th. You did that on the morning of the 18th, already a bit tardy. But then the mint jumped the gun again and lowered the price to $1792 on Wednesday August 18th shortly after 11 AM, evidently very soon after you placed your first order. Sales immediately surged as the word spread, and by the time you ordered 16 hours after the markdown, you were apparently too late. The mint then failed to give you the correct information about the status of your order.

If you just want one piece for your collection, you can eventually get it on the secondary market for probably only a nominal markup, although you may have to wait until the initial price spurt has receded. Good luck with that!

Your bad experience might also recur with the current newly on-sale Buchanan liberty. It might sell-out during the three day Labor Day weekend that has just started, and maybe nobody at the mint will reset the software until Tuesday morning September 7th to reflect an exhaustion of the allotment of a total of 15000. Some posters in this forum have opined it will not sell out at all. My personal guess is that it is already quite close to a sell out, and the coins might all be gone very soon.

MsMorrisine

I agree, except for the price spurt.

try to get it off the BST or eBay earlier rather than later. These are going to stay a hot item, in my opinion... unless the mint starts selling bullion platinum, then they will likely fall apart. (then there is always the price speculation thing.... if you think platinum is going to plummet....)

CaptHenway

<< <i>

<< <i>..... And now they cancel my order without warning or notice? >>

Is that any different than the manner in which you canceled your previous order? >>



Touche!!!!!!!

ArizonaJack

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>..... And now they cancel my order without warning or notice? >>

Is that any different than the manner in which you canceled your previous order? >>



Touche!!!!!!!

>>



And a BINGO !!!!!

ProofCollection

<< <i>

<< <i>..... And now they cancel my order without warning or notice? >>

Is that any different than the manner in which you canceled your previous order? >>



And when they drop the price of something you just bought you should still pay the higher price?
If I had called and spoke to a US Mint representative, they would have refused to drop the price on the existing order and told me to do what I did - cancel the order and place a new one.

MsMorrisine

the mint web site hopefully would be set up better than the average dealer web site.

if inventory hits 0, you'd hope it'd auto rollover to "wait list." Apparently, it didn't, and that's the issue.

remember when the expected ship dates on the product page on web site were different than the ones in the display order page?

I just don't think the main ordering site and the order processing site are tied closely together, nor closely enough together.

ProofCollection

They wouldn't even have to tie it to inventory... just tie it to orders. After 10,000 orders have been taken, put up the wait list message even though there will likely be x% of returns and cancellations. Those ordering after 10,000 should be made aware that inventory -might- not be available. Had I been told this, I wouldn't have canceled.



<< <i>In this case, you were just a little late pulling the trigger the second time. The dates and times of sale and price adjustment were abnormal. First of all, the mint began sales of the one ounce platinum proof a day early, on the afternoon of August 11th, instead of the scheduled Thursday August 12th, but without explanation. On Sunday August 15th somebody discovered the mint claimed to have had already sold about 8500 of the 10000 mintage at $1892, and that person kindly provided the information to this PCGS forum. In order to not risk getting shut out, it was advised to buy at the higher 1892, and not to wait for the price reevaluation which would normally be expected Thursday August 19th. You did that on the morning of the 18th, already a bit tardy. But then the mint jumped the gun again and lowered the price to $1792 on Wednesday August 18th shortly after 11 AM, evidently very soon after you placed your first order. Sales immediately surged as the word spread, and by the time you ordered 16 hours after the markdown, you were apparently too late. The mint then failed to give you the correct information about the status of your order. >>



Thanks for the chronology of the sales. I didn't consult any forums or magazines before placing my order, nor do most consumers I imagine, NOR SHOULD THEY HAVE TO, so I was unaware of all of this.

coinguy1

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>..... And now they cancel my order without warning or notice? >>

Is that any different than the manner in which you canceled your previous order? >>



And when they drop the price of something you just bought you should still pay the higher price?
If I had called and spoke to a US Mint representative, they would have refused to drop the price on the existing order and told me to do what I did - cancel the order and place a new one. >>

I didn't say I would pay the higher price. But if I had canceled an order on someone, I wouldn't later complain about how unfair they were, for doing the same to me.

ProofCollection

<< <i>I didn't say I would pay the higher price. But if I had canceled an order on someone, I wouldn't later complain about how unfair they were, for doing the same to me. >>



IMO, it wasn't really an order cancelation though. Technically it was a cancellation, but when I immediately replaced the order the net effect was NO cancelation. And if they had a mechanism for reducing the price, no cancelation would have ocurred.

notwilight

<< <i>the mint web site hopefully would be set up better than the average dealer web site....

. >>



I don't follow you're logic here. A dealer is trying to feed his family. The mint website is run by govt bureaucrats with no need to make a profit---ever.

--Jerry

botanist

Despite the hecklers trying to have a little fun with this topic, I think you have a legitimate gripe because the mint website gave you wrong information and clearly misled you. Many other buyers cancelled their previous orders at $1892, and successfully repurchased at $1792. Even though the sequence of those actions probably did not matter in your situation, it might've been better strategy to have bought first before cancelling. Evidently the US Mint website and sales department have woefully inefficient software and programming, and the mint really needs to fix that, along with rethinking things. Hiring someone competent for accomplishing the task should cost less than the cash value of a single platinum one ounce coin. However, the mint has more than enough shortcomings, problems, flaws, uncertainties, inferior production quality, planchet shortages, coin design issues, congressional mandates, financial duties, currency responsibilities, political considerations, and other headaches that the website might not get updated anytime soon.

dpoole

I just don't think you roll the dice for $100 in a situation like that with the Mint.

If you collect Mint issues, pay the issue price. You'll win some with this approach (like some of the low-mintage commems that were unpopular at the time), you'll lose some with this approach (like the first issue of the 2008 Plats). Just like you do if you try to outsmart them. And fewer headaches.

ProofCollection

<< <i>I just don't think you roll the dice for $100 in a situation like that with the Mint. >>



Situation like what? I had no insider information or indication or knowledge they were short on inventory.

Casman

<< <i>

<< <i>the mint web site hopefully would be set up better than the average dealer web site....

. >>



I don't follow you're logic here. A dealer is trying to feed his family. The mint website is run by govt bureaucrats with no need to make a profit---ever.

--Jerry >>




I agree, just because it's a Gov't website don't expect much....I'm in Mich a just found out our Sec Of State computers are not set up to detect multiple titles for the same vehicle if applications are done the same Day or within a few days of eachother, Thus multiple people have titles for the same car.....I called them up and knew there was a problem when the girl said "Uh-OH, this is not supposed to happen"...I said What do you mean Uh-Oh,....I got transferred to a specialist that basically wouldn't admit anything but kept saying it's not our fault but this is gonna likely be a civil suit...

CaptHenway

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>..... And now they cancel my order without warning or notice? >>

Is that any different than the manner in which you canceled your previous order? >>



And when they drop the price of something you just bought you should still pay the higher price?
If I had called and spoke to a US Mint representative, they would have refused to drop the price on the existing order and told me to do what I did - cancel the order and place a new one. >>



Do you speak for the U.S. Mint now? How do you know what they would have told you to do?
TD

fivecents

PC...the only mistake you made was canceling your existing order. The mint sold like 8,000 out of 10,000 mintage the first day or so. Canceling a US mint order on a coin that is hotter than sliced bread is like cracking a coin out of a TPGS holder. All bets are off.

CaptHenway

<< <i>

<< <i>..... And now they cancel my order without warning or notice? >>

Is that any different than the manner in which you canceled your previous order? >>



I nominate this for the Post Of The Week.
Can I get a second?
TD

notwilight

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>..... And now they cancel my order without warning or notice? >>

Is that any different than the manner in which you canceled your previous order? >>



I nominate this for the Post Of The Week.
Can I get a second?
TD >>



I second that.

NitroCruiser

With last years track record, the shear number of IRA purchases (many of who couldn't care less about a PF-70) on the only platinum offering this year from the Mint, and the small mintage... would one realistically expect a lot of returns on this? Perhaps a phone call would have been advisable prior to canceling the initial order. As was mentioned, in this scenario it would have been better to place two order, and return the first one with the other in hand (provided the second arrived within 7 business days). Another point, why risk a possible reject from a return (if there were any).

I just believe the small numbers, along with the period of time involved was the issue. Nothing nefarious beyond the Mints normal operations. For all their faults, IMO this isn't one. If we knew how many orders were canceled that might help. I have a gut feeling the waiting list filled quicker than the website could be updated. Sorry to see anyone disappointed, but one does take a chance when you have a sure thing and give it up at a shot at a lower price on a limited item that is already selling like hot cakes.

ProofCollection

<< <i>PC...the only mistake you made was canceling your existing order. The mint sold like 8,000 out of 10,000 mintage the first day or so... >>



And the average consumer is supposed to know this how?

7over8

I think the real question here is the following -

1) What action did the USM take that was in direct conflict with their timing of price changes - and their pricing model - where CANCEL boxes coincidentally ALL DISAPPEAR right before the untimely (early) price change?

***The action a WORLD CLASS ORGANIZATION would take? Reduce the selling price on ALL pieces to 1792.

The 1892 price a week before what right on the cusp of the pricing model to bump the price. Given the action to "disable" the cancel order boxes and avoid having a MASS RE-ORDER scenario......the afformentioned clever steps were taken....

OK, Mr. Moy, we ask that you explain yourself.........

jmski52

Proof Collection, I ordered my Plat for $1,892.00. I chose not to cancel my order. Does the Mint owe me $100? No. Please explain if you know otherwise. I don't get what your complaint is all about.

notwilight

<< <i>

<< <i>PC...the only mistake you made was canceling your existing order. The mint sold like 8,000 out of 10,000 mintage the first day or so... >>



And the average consumer is supposed to know this how? >>



I think everyone is assuming you knew this. It was reported on Mint News Blog and discussed here. --jerry

NitroCruiser

<< <i>And the average consumer is supposed to know this how? >>



Do you consider CU Forum members to be "average consumers" when it comes to coins? While it is true some members are probably occasional visitors, I'd like to believe most here check on the coins that interest them before, during, and after purchases. This issues sales progress was mentioned on this forum and others.

botanist

It was beneficial for this issue to be aired out here to illustrate a potential pitfall in buying from the US mint. Now that we've had the sequence of events explained in detail, the best solution for the apparent grievance of "ProofCollection" is for him to just buy another 2010 APE on the open market. There's a very substantial consolation for him involved in doing so. If his later order had gone through near the end of the queue, as he originally hoped, he'd have ultimately received somebody's returned cull coin, with a little scrape or ding or other flaw, and he'd have been unhappy with it whether or not sent in for grading. As things stand now, while he'll have to pay an extra 200 bucks or so, at least he can be sure to get one in excellent condition. In the final analysis, "ProofCollection" will have benefitted both in fine-tuning his mint-transaction strategies, and in ending up with a superior and more valuable coin.

cheezhed

they were now $100 cheaper at $1792, so I canceled my Thursday order and placed a new order

This is exactly why most major retailers and pm sellers do not accept returns on bullion and bullion like/related items.

Too many people want to play the spread.

ProofCollection

<< <i>Proof Collection, I ordered my Plat for $1,892.00. I chose not to cancel my order. Does the Mint owe me $100? No. Please explain if you know otherwise. I don't get what your complaint is all about. >>


It is clear that the US Mint does not consider an item to be sold until it ships. As such, if the price reduction ocurred before it shipped to you, I would say that they do owe you $100. If an item is "sold" when the order is placed, then they do NOT owe you $100 and they owe me a coin.



<< <i>I think everyone is assuming you knew this. It was reported on Mint News Blog and discussed here. --jerry >>


You know what they say about assumptions... But the problem goes beyond me. Like I alluded to earlier - the average consumer has no way of knowing or suspecting any inventory problems if the mint does not reveal this on their website.



<< <i>Do you consider CU Forum members to be "average consumers" when it comes to coins? While it is true some members are probably occasional visitors, I'd like to believe most here check on the coins that interest them before, during, and after purchases. This issues sales progress was mentioned on this forum and others. >>


No, CU forum members are not average consumers, they are collector enthusiasts. I know many collectors who do not read or participate in any online forums.



<< <i> In the final analysis, "ProofCollection" will have benefitted both in fine-tuning his mint-transaction strategies... >>


Again, I hope this goes beyond just me. I hope everyone has learned that the US Mint will NOT necessarily post an inventory message when orders approach limits, as I and undoubtedly others previously believed.

grote15

Does the Mint stipulate anywhere that they must follow a certain chain of events pertaining to the sellout of a product? More likely, their policy either does not state anything or that sales can be suspended at any time for any reason, including a sellout. The OP had an order pending and chose to forgo that reservation by placing a new order to save a few bucks. On the surface, that seemed like a good call, but it was a gamble, and the results did not pan out. The lesson here is that if you really want an item, let your order stand, because nothing is ever guaranteed when it comes to the US Mint..

7over8

ProofCollection -

I agree. The items were not shipped when the price change took hold. Items should have been reduced in price.

I think the USM took a h&ll of alot of complaints about this, they should think their policy over and stick to it.

Steve27

I placed only one order, but it was after the price dropped to $1795. It's still showing as backordered, but I wonder if I'm going to get someone's returned item. Ryan, would you mind sharing your order number?

7over8

jmski52 -

No playing dumb here.

You know exactly what was meant by the post.

Orders were not shipped, not even "picked", when the price change occurred. Any item NOT SHIPPED should have been price adjusted.

We keep hearing how the USM wants to be a WORLD CLASS organization, like any other PRIVATE retailer, well -here's their chance!!

Price adjust all coins to $1,792.

It makes perfect sense to me, dont know how you couldn't understand that concept?

ProofCollection

<< <i>I placed only one order, but it was after the price dropped to $1795. It's still showing as backordered, but I wonder if I'm going to get someone's returned item. Ryan, would you mind sharing your order number? >>



Order number was 35024xxx, 8-19 at 3:35am.

Bochiman

<< <i>

<< <i>Proof Collection, I ordered my Plat for $1,892.00. I chose not to cancel my order. Does the Mint owe me $100? No. Please explain if you know otherwise. I don't get what your complaint is all about. >>


It is clear that the US Mint does not consider an item to be sold until it ships. As such, if the price reduction ocurred before it shipped to you, I would say that they do owe you $100. If an item is "sold" when the order is placed, then they do NOT owe you $100 and they owe me a coin.
>>



No. By that token, if the same situation occurred when the price is adjusted upward, then you are also saying the mint should increase the price on orders not shipped. They won't do that, they shouldn't do that, nor would folks stand for it.

When an order is placed, even if it hasn't shipped, then that is the price. You have a cancel button, then you have a 7 day return privilege (used to be longer but people like you, most likely, kept playing the cancel/return games due to price changes in bullion value).

You still sound surprised by the mint's process and actions. I am not. They are what they have been. For people that don't read the forums/magazines/etc, they likely aren't the ones that are playing games with the cancel/re-buy like you did.

jmski52

It is clear that the US Mint does not consider an item to be sold until it ships. As such, if the price reduction ocurred before it shipped to you, I would say that they do owe you $100. If an item is "sold" when the order is placed, then they do NOT owe you $100 and they owe me a coin.

Their operations for shipping seems to be a "batch operation" that involves alot more orders than any place I've ever worked. As such, if they've already designated what is to be shipped next, then it's got to be somewhat tricky to stop everything and sort out what might have been affected by a price change after the order was placed. Also, the order might have already been in the process of being "picked" even though you didn't see the change yet online. Someone has to make those changes manually to the system each time an item changes status before the status change shows up online. That takes time. Many times, I've received an order from the Mint before the online status had been changed to "shipped".

Isn't it the case that people are having their credit cards "hit" within hours of placing the order? That is the point at which I would say that the sale has taken place. If you've ever had to reverse a credit card charge, you know that it's like an act of Congress. There is really no practical way for the Mint to change your price without cancelling the order and then issuing another order, after getting the credit card charge reversed. To benefit from a price change, I would think that you'd have to cancel and re-order, thus losing your place in line and causing a significant slowdown in the whole system besides.

If the Mint didn't follow their own published pricing schedule, then I think a refund is due. But not when the order has been placed and it has not been cancelled before the item has shipped. I just don't think that's the way it works. Is it worse this way, or better to have a bunch of flippers returning anything that doesn't grade out as a 70? Either way, it's not going to be "fair" to someone. Sometimes, you have to chose. The only one that gets to have it both ways is the US Mint.

jmski52

if the same situation occurred when the price is adjusted upward, then you are also saying the mint should increase the price on orders not shipped. They won't do that, they shouldn't do that, nor would folks stand for it.

It only took Bochiman 1/10 of the verbiage that it took me to make an argument, and his is better.

ProofCollection

<< <i> if the same situation occurred when the price is adjusted upward, then you are also saying the mint should increase the price on orders not shipped. They won't do that, they shouldn't do that, nor would folks stand for it. >>



A price increase is slightly a different animal, but in both cases once someone has placed an order and provided payment, it's their fault if they can't or don't procure it, process it, or ship it before they decide to change the price. The reality is though, if you're going to allow returns, you should be willing to lower the price. Almost every retail store I'm familiar with will refund the difference on ANYTHING you buy if they lower the price within 30 days or some reasonable time period, otherwise you can typically return the item and buy it again. Like it or not, this is a COMMON tenet in American retail business.

Regardless, the facts remain as follows:
-The mint did not indicate in any way that they had taken orders for more than the limit when I placed my 2nd order
-The mint had OVER 2 weeks to notify me that there was a possibility that I would not get my order, but they did nothing but indicate that I would get my order
-The mint has not yet formally notified me that my order has been canceled

Am I surprised? Not really. But is it too much to ask that they track the number of orders placed and automatically put up a warning message when orders placed exceeds the sales limit? That measure requires little if any sophistication or technology. The counter can always be manually reset or lowered once the mint gets a chance to assess the situation, but should always err on the side of caution.

Then is it too much to ask that once they become aware of a situation that they send out a courtesy email to say, oops, we're sorry, you might not get one?

And then is it too much to ask that when they cancel your order they send you a courtesy email telling you that they did?