Steve, He said he sets up at shows a few times. He sold it from one of his cases when he was set up at the Chantilly show. I'm just assuming....but probably 98% of the members of this board have sold something on ebay using a scan. I think it would be very hard to be active at all in this hobby and not buy and sell on Ebay. When it's said and done I'm just wondering what the scan problem is. I have to admit: I can't seem to post links to auctions.
well this thread needs an image so I will post one for examination : it is mislabeled and possibly tampered with , but I am just not sure so please give your opinions and offers for this rare PSA 8 card.
Quick refreash, Card was bought by me in a 8 holder apox. 6 years ago no paypal, back then checks where still good! Card was shown several times at shows, sold to a buyer at Chantilly in March, and well the rest I think you have down. Sent an Image of the card that PSA took at the National still in holder to diamonman which I think he finally got today,so hopefully he can post the photos. I am leaning towards some form buyback will probably contact the buyer in the next day or so. If and when that happens will scan card show it out of holder and probably try to see if it will go back into one.
As a collector I have also been on the selling side of the table a few times. Most recently at the Chantilly show in early March of this year. In one of my cases was a 1968 Ryan Rookie psa 8 (nice one well centered) that i purchased on Ebay5-6 years ago. Being that I might do 1 show a year this cards get seen by the public 5-6 times since I have owned it. Lots of interest in the card every show with several dealers looking at it wondering if it would bump up. Had offers but none at the price I was trying to get for it. Since the market had soften some on the 68s and my customer offered me about what I paid figured sell and move on. (Now it gets good) So at the National this year my customer takes the card to PSA trying to get the bump and they tell him the case has been tamped with the card inside looks suspicious, they take pictures of the card in the holder then crack it out and tell him the card has been altered the case had been cracked and more than likely the card had been switched. I talk to PSA they tell me it is a problem that has happened before where people are able to crack cases switch cards and glue them back so you cant tell. So now the buyer wants full refund on the card, giving me the card back(OF course with out holder PSA confiscated that) Not one dealer over the years that looked at the card noticed any problem Including myself Yet the buyer seems like an honest guy. What would you do?
It sounds like you thought the card was an outstanding example. Centered, lots of interest, but nobody was willing to pull the trigger because you said your price was too high. Since you bought the card prior to PSA's half grade system I'm sure you were thrilled when that came along because certainly a card as nice as yours was an easy bump to 8.5 or even a 9. So how many times did you submit the card for the bump you felt it deserved? Did you sell the card in the same holder you bought it in? Or didn't you bother with any of that and instead decided to blow it out to the next guy who looked at it for about what you paid. I don't think the market was ever soft for a centered Ryan rookie card priced at a premium with great potential to bump up. A card like that will sell quickly. If there were issues with the card that could explain why the right people didn't pull the trigger and maybe nobody wanted to break the bad news to you.
from these pics I say definitely tampered with, I enlarged these on my computer and to me it seems you can see the frosting especially at the top of the slab.
KBCARDS, If he already submitted this card for a bump and PSA did not bump it and just sent it back this would be really interesting. I'm thinking this is not the case.
Slab does look tampered. The corner is cracked from within, not from the edge, if dropped or something like that.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
With the blow up am going to say no. did some research and found the card was purchased by me in sept 2000. Do have a name of the seller not a company but an Individual. t The more I look at that crack, just wish I had a photo of the card before I sold It.
Well, if you owned and displayed it for that many years, I think you'd know if the case had those cracks while it was in your possession. I'd also think you'd be able to tell if the card inside was your card or one that has been switched in.
And the PSA cert verification is not pulling anything up on this.
Just talked to PSA they tell me the card was cracked at the bottom not the top. Trimming was done on the top of the card. Claim card was in the holder upside down Ryan should be at the top.
Card spent a lot of time in safety deposit box, been 6 months since sold, do not have photographic memory! Do not remember upper crack yet PSA says it was broken out at the bottom.
The best thing you can do is try to get in touch with someone who examined it. It would be even better if it were someone who examined it at that particular show.
Whatever you do DO NOT listen to the dude whos brother and sisters are lawyers he has NO clue what he is talking about. The buyer bought a psa authenticated card what the recived was not this, they got a tampered case with a less than psa 8 in the case. This isnt the case of a sub bump and the seller lost out, this is a case of selling a non authentic item, which no matter how many family members are lawyers is against the law.
Also that slab was cracked I can now spot that frost from miles away no matter how good they think they are.
<< <i>That is who gave me the info on where it was cracked and where it was trimmed >>
I mean someone who examined it at the chantilly show. Someone who could testify that it didn't look like that. That crack and all the frosting around it was the first thing I noticed.
<< <i>Just talked to PSA they tell me the card was cracked at the bottom not the top. Trimming was done on the top of the card. Claim card was in the holder upside down Ryan should be at the top. >>
Right, you can see it cracked within going out on the top very clearly. It was cracked at the bottom.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Whatever you do DO NOT listen to the dude whos brother and sisters are lawyers he has NO clue what he is talking about. The buyer bought a psa authenticated card what the recived was not this, they got a tampered case with a less than psa 8 in the case. This isnt the case of a sub bump and the seller lost out, this is a case of selling a non authentic item, which no matter how many family members are lawyers is against the law.
Also that slab was cracked I can now spot that frost from miles away no matter how good they think they are. >>
That card is no help are spotting cracks. That is worst case I have ever seen. So bad, I can't imagine how the OP handed it over....meaning I can't for certain as you have, the buyer didn't tamper with it.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
No one has mentioned this yet. Since the card is "upside down", especially if you look at the back as it sits in the PSA case. Do you remember if the card was like that when you first bought it? If it was, then you bought it altered and switched out. If not, you may not have a case, but at least you would know if the buyer switched it or not.
Digcat is right on High end cards. Unfortunately I had no idea that their was a problem and did not noticed if the card was upside down when I owned it ( It would seem that some of the dealers that looked at would have noticed!). I want to thank Diamondman for posting the pics. Will offer the buyer a buyback tomorrow. Told PSA who I bought the card from, they claim they never heard of him time to move on. Its almost Football season, and well you know what that means! Go Ravens!,
here is an honest way to make some money back... send the card in question to Nolan Ryan via his foundation to be auto'ed - turn around and send the card in to get blue flipped from PSA/DNA - you at least turn a bad card into a nice collectable that will have very strong eye appeal. People are paying very strong prices blue flipped cards that get GEM MINT 10 auto grades.
<< <i>One last point. It is possible PSA never heard of your seller.
He may have bought it from someone else. What PSA should know is, by the cert number
WHO originally had it graded. I'd make a little more noise.
Steve >>
I agree! I would make more noise. It's amazing sometimes what "one more phone call" will do. You may see if the guy who sold it to you has a photo of it from 10 years ago. Have you checked your buyer's ebay feedback to see if there is any hint of altered PSA slabs? Have you looked at your buyer's buying and selling habits? Does your buyer buy and then sell the same card quickly on ebay? Does the card look the same in both auctions?
I almost missed this the first time. The card in the case is UPSIDE DOWN. If someone tried to sell me that card, and I had it in hand, I would have picked up on it. Did noone at the card show notice that??
This buyer was sophisticated enough to pursue a bump in grade. I find it hard to believe that same person shells out a grand in person for a slab that's cracked with frosting all around the edges and doesn't question anything. And then there's the fact that nobody else said anything.
The card being upside down would be easier to miss. That's not something most buyers would be on the lookout for, but frosted/cracked edges, definitely so.
no offense, but no one is getting their money back if they had my card for 6 MONTHS. I think you would notice if the slab was cracked or tampered with if you owned it for years right?
No win situation for the OP. Although I offer a no questions asked refund on anything I have sold here or on Ebay, something just doesn't seem right. Six months, the crack, the upside down thing, just a lot of weird stuff.
I'm not sure if I would blame the OP for not offering the refund, but it is likely the right thing to do. Too bad, as the guy that does the right thing is also the one that gets scammed on this type of thing. Follow your gut and decide, as you will likely never know for sure.
The best pitch to start a hitter off with is always strike one.
The upside down part would be easy to catch if you flipped it to look at the reverse. I have NEVER seen a 1968 Topps card read upside down when looking at the reverse.
A bunch of "knowing" people looked at this card and no one ever said anything. I'm going to be the buyer for a minute..............That's a nice Ryan rookie you have there/as I'm looking the whole thing over. As I'm looking at the card I know the significance of it and think it's nice and later on down the road I'm handing that bad boy to PSA in person for a bump because like I said I know the significance of that card and an 8.5 would be "sweeeeet". The whole time for the past 6 months that holder has looked like sh*t. Now I'm not looking like the guy that doesn't know these types of cards at all. I'm calling completely BS on something. This does not seem right. Is the buyer vacationing in Sweden?
Actually, I've never answered the question "What would you do"---------I'm going to be completely honest and not a smart a**. If I was told by PSA about the card being switched and the case actually looked as bad as it does and I paid like $1000 for the card----I would quit the hobby because I would obviously be in way over my head to know nothing and I repeat nothing about the slab itself. If this is the way the slab looked when sold to the buyer by the OP, he should quit the hobby also because he is obviously in over his head with $1000 cards and slabs that are cracked at the corners and quite frosted just about all the way around.
The OP knows who he bought the card from on Ebay so he would have to know when and for how much. The oldest price in VCP for a PSA 8 is a sale that occurred on 10/29/06 for $375. At that time the card was a solid $900-$1000 card so for a card to sell for $375 then it's obvious there had to be something very wrong with the card pictured in the listing that would cause all knowledgeable viewers to stay away. A novice got stuck with that bad card and it's possible the OP got himself into the same situation. Proud of himself for the great deal he got, proud of the quality, and unaware that anything could be possibly wrong with the card after showing the card to other dealers for years. All those years, all those eyes, with the OP himself growing with experience in submitting to PSA and knowledge of the review process. Paul Harvey?
Comments
MRLEO said he was a collector. .
I did not get the impression that he was a dealer.
With that said I too would like to see a scan.
Steve
He said he sets up at shows a few times. He sold it from one of his cases when he was set up at the Chantilly show. I'm just assuming....but probably 98% of the members of this board have sold something on ebay using a scan. I think it would be very hard to be active at all in this hobby and not buy and sell on Ebay. When it's said and done I'm just wondering what the scan problem is. I have to admit: I can't seem to post links to auctions.
<< <i>Mmmmmmmm........March to August? Im sorry, thats way to long for me. MY 2 >>
/////////////////////////
Hypothetical:
1. The OP bought the card six-months ago from an EBAY seller.
2. The OP put the card in his safe and took it out last week.
3. The OP took the card to PSA for a prospective bump.
4. PSA said "the slab has been tampered and the card is altered."
5. The OP complained to the EBAY seller and demanded a refund.
Did the OP wait too long?
.
see your statement was hypothetical.
It sounds like you thought the card was an outstanding example. Centered, lots of interest, but nobody was willing to pull the trigger because you said your price was too high. Since you bought the card prior to PSA's half grade system I'm sure you were thrilled when that came along because certainly a card as nice as yours was an easy bump to 8.5 or even a 9. So how many times did you submit the card for the bump you felt it deserved? Did you sell the card in the same holder you bought it in? Or didn't you bother with any of that and instead decided to blow it out to the next guy who looked at it for about what you paid. I don't think the market was ever soft for a centered Ryan rookie card priced at a premium with great potential to bump up. A card like that will sell quickly. If there were issues with the card that could explain why the right people didn't pull the trigger and maybe nobody wanted to break the bad news to you.
from these pics I say definitely tampered with, I enlarged these on my computer and to me it seems you can see the frosting especially
at the top of the slab.
If he already submitted this card for a bump and PSA did not bump it and just sent it back this would be really interesting. I'm thinking this is not the case.
Edited to add: When held horizontally, I do not care for the TB centering.
PSA has a fund to pay victims off.
Steve
a couple more pics.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
I'd also think you'd be able to tell if the card inside was your card or one that has been switched in.
And the PSA cert verification is not pulling anything up on this.
All of the currently listed cards are oriented in the slab in
the opposite direction of the OP's card.
Upside Down
I have touched quite a few of them and all of them have
been oriented in the slab like the ones listed on EBAY.
..........
Was the card oriented "wrong" when the OP bought the card?
Did PSA ever orient the card differently than they do now?
Also that slab was cracked I can now spot that frost from miles away no matter how good they think they are.
<< <i>That is who gave me the info on where it was cracked and where it was trimmed >>
I mean someone who examined it at the chantilly show. Someone who could testify that it didn't look like that. That crack and all the frosting around it was the first thing I noticed.
<< <i>Just talked to PSA they tell me the card was cracked at the bottom not the top. Trimming was done on the top of the card. Claim card was in the holder upside down Ryan should be at the top. >>
Right, you can see it cracked within going out on the top very clearly. It was cracked at the bottom.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Whatever you do DO NOT listen to the dude whos brother and sisters are lawyers he has NO clue what he is talking about. The buyer bought a psa authenticated card what the recived was not this, they got a tampered case with a less than psa 8 in the case. This isnt the case of a sub bump and the seller lost out, this is a case of selling a non authentic item, which no matter how many family members are lawyers is against the law.
Also that slab was cracked I can now spot that frost from miles away no matter how good they think they are. >>
That card is no help are spotting cracks. That is worst case I have ever seen. So bad, I can't imagine how the OP handed it over....meaning I can't for certain as you have, the buyer didn't tamper with it.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
You mean the back of the card?
Storm addressed this a few posts back.
FWIW I have seen cards 'oriented' both ways within a set.
My Mars Attacks set has that problem as does a few other sets I currently own.
Leo should know which side the cert was on before he sold it.
Steve
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
The reverse being upside is not unique.
It depends on how they place the card in the slab.
I have horizontal cards that have the cert on the left and some with the cert on the right.
That is what Storm was speaking of.
That is not a problem.
He was simply asking if anyone has ever seen one.
Donato would probably know if Ryan rookies come both ways.
Steve
He may have bought it from someone else. What PSA should know is, by the cert number
WHO originally had it graded. I'd make a little more noise.
Steve
<< <i>One last point. It is possible PSA never heard of your seller.
He may have bought it from someone else. What PSA should know is, by the cert number
WHO originally had it graded. I'd make a little more noise.
Steve >>
I agree! I would make more noise. It's amazing sometimes what "one more phone call" will do. You may see if the guy who sold it to you has a photo of it from 10 years ago. Have you checked your buyer's ebay feedback to see if there is any hint of altered PSA slabs? Have you looked at your buyer's buying and selling habits? Does your buyer buy and then sell the same card quickly on ebay? Does the card look the same in both auctions?
>
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Is that what this is all about?
Steve
The card being upside down would be easier to miss. That's not something most buyers would be on the lookout for, but frosted/cracked edges, definitely so.
no offense, but no one is getting their money back if they had my card for 6 MONTHS. I think you would notice if the slab was cracked or tampered with if you owned it for years right?
I'm not sure if I would blame the OP for not offering the refund, but it is likely the right thing to do. Too bad, as the guy that does the right thing is also the one that gets scammed on this type of thing. Follow your gut and decide, as you will likely never know for sure.