Dealer Provenance... Is it meaningful to anyone?

Broadstruck · August 24, 2010 11:37PM

I've noticed especially here on the BST that members tend to feel the need add which dealer they bought it from.

Although I can appreciate collector pedigrees and enjoy tracing the coins history in previous collections as far back as possible...

Which dealers offered the coin in the past is quite meaningless to me

Your opinions on the subject are greatly appreciated... thanks in advance!

blu62vette · August 24, 2010 11:56PM

It doesnt do much for me. I actually think more times than not the providence gives me a neutral or negative effect.

savoyspecial · August 24, 2010 11:57PM

when it is accompanied by a neat piece of ephemera (Mehl envelope, for example) it can add appeal in my mind

i realize this is probably not what you are talking about.......i have seen these same ads you speak of on the BST and it does not matter to me what dealer just recently sold it to the guy who is selling it now

RyGuy · August 25, 2010 12:04AM

Besides what Greg said, I think more or less that users here post what dealer the item came from as more of a bragging right or to pay homage to dealers who are also forum members as well.

messydesk · August 25, 2010 12:21AM

Mostly just small-talk added to the coin description as far as I'm concerned, and perhaps a shout-out to a dealer forum member as mentioned. If once bought from a dealer who is a prominent authority, it could also put a potential future buyer at ease that the coin in question at one time had said dealer's imprimatur.

Longacre · August 25, 2010 12:30AM

It lends credibility to the coin, in my opinion. I don't want to mention the names of the alleged coin doctors, but imagine if someone posted a thread announcing, "Hey, check out the coin I just bought from Dealer [alleged coin doctor's name here]!"

RedTiger · August 25, 2010 12:37AM

In these times of a flood of fake slabs, sure it means something. Best to buy only from known, reputable, knowledgeable dealers, vs. unknown sellers, sometimes fly-by-night sellers. The caveat is that a seller can claim almost anything in terms of story.

Let me give an example, I have a coin with an inventory sticker from Rick Snow (not the Eagle Eye approval sticker). If I see that sticker, I have more confidence in that coin at least being real in a real slab than one without. Sure the fakers could get Snow stickers as well, but Snow documents a lot of his coins, as well as having a memory of many of them, so they would be playing with fire.

lcoopie · August 25, 2010 12:51AM

It does if the dealer is known to be very fussy in their coin selection criteria.

airplanenut · August 25, 2010 12:51AM

For me, it depends on the dealer. If someone purchased a coin from a seller for whom I have great respect and whose eye I trust, that may give more credence to statements regarding the coin's quality. If the dealer mentioned is someone who has a mix of meh to great, then knowing the coin came from them doesn't really mean much.

ColonialCoinUnion · August 25, 2010 1:01AM

How could more information be a bad thing? If it is not meaningful to you, you could ignore it.

lcoopie · August 25, 2010 1:10AM

I leave my coin rarities stickers on.

coinguy1 · August 25, 2010 1:14AM

The fact that a particular coin was sold by a given dealer (or collector, for that matter) guarantees practically nothing. But, depending upon who the dealer was, it could certainly make it more likely than not, that the coin was a nice one. For example, based on what I have seen in their inventories over the years, if the coin came from CCU (who has posted to this thread), Legend or Pinnacle, sight-unseen, I like the odds.

Bochiman · August 25, 2010 1:32AM

<< I leave my coin rarities stickers on.

>>

You got a CRO sticker on yours?
All I got was a CRO stickered box

PerryHall · August 25, 2010 2:00AM

Doesn't mean much to me. Show me the coin, quote me your best price, and save all the stories. I'll either play or pass.

Unknown · August 25, 2010 2:00AM

This content has been removed.

Walkerguy21D · August 25, 2010 2:04AM

Similar to buying an Indian Cent with a Rick Snow pedigree, to me, would be a large cent that was purchased from Tom Reynolds. You could be confident that it was genuine, properly attributed, and strictly graded by EAC standards.

roadrunner · August 25, 2010 2:09AM

If provided with the dealer(s) provenance, I can probably get a better idea of the coin's overall markup.

In a way, dealer provenance can at times be a self-fullfilling prophecy. Even your favorite dealer can make an error in judgement. Just because they paid X, doesn't mean that it's automatically a fair deal to you at X + (10-20%).

There are some very special coins once handled by recognized "icon" dealers of the 19th century or first half of the 20th century. If the coins have rarely traded hands, that type of dealer pedigree is probably worth something. But then again, those are typically coins priced in the high 5 figures to over 6 figures today.

roadrunner

Broadstruck · August 25, 2010 2:15AM

I'm just jumping in for a moment to mention that I feel that there have been some major valid points made!

tradedollarnut · August 25, 2010 2:17AM

Sometimes, I'm very interested in knowing where a coin was bought. Especially if it's not stickered.

Teva · August 25, 2010 2:25AM

I think that a pedigree that comes with paper work can add confidence to your purchase in these days of china counterfeits.
A online photo registry from TPG's would be very helpful.

lcoopie · August 25, 2010 2:40AM

how about the opposite,

what would you think if your valuable potential purchase
made its way from ebay via China?

It's got to factor into your decision, IMO.

Justacommeman · August 25, 2010 2:57AM

<< 

<< I leave my coin rarities stickers on.

>>

You got a CRO sticker on yours?
All I got was a CRO stickered box

>>

I use my CRO box for my design inspiration. MJ

truthteller · August 25, 2010 3:08AM

I just purchased a very nice early date Walker with a Tom Noe provenance. The coin was heat sealed in the flip with the tag. The dealer discounted the coin because of the history of the coin. The coin then upgraded when submitted to PCGS.

TRUTH

RedTiger · August 25, 2010 3:31AM

<< how about the opposite,

what would you think if your valuable potential purchase
made its way from ebay via China?

It's got to factor into your decision, IMO. >>

I see it mostly as matter of time before it happens, that a BST seller unloads a pile of fake slabs. In the aftermath maybe more will care about where the coin came from. The fakes might have originally come from China, via Craigslist or Ebay. However, after coins change hands a couple more times, perhaps even to local dealers with limited authentication expertise, that will no longer be possible to track.

The average forumite doesn't have the expertise to authenticate against high quality fakes in fake slabs, or a genuine coin placed into a higher grade fake holder. Dealers that see thousands of coins a year have a hard enough time. The average collector can probably only spot the fake slabs with obvious visible problems. I tend to believe that there are already fake slabs that are 99% visually perfect, because problems with fonts and such are relatively easy to fix.

RYK · August 25, 2010 3:37AM

It can be a useful piece of information (see Mark Feld's response), but I do not consider it to be "provenance" when the dealer has purchased the coin for resale.

Longacre · August 25, 2010 3:54AM

<< It can be a useful piece of information (see Mark Feld's response), but I do not consider it to be "provenance" when the dealer has purchased the coin for resale. >>

Is RYK posting again? Longacre has many questions in the hopper for the boards (much to a lot of people's chagrin, I am sure), but was waiting for RYK's triumphant return.

PS. I don't have a CRO box, but I proudly wear my CRO hat when I play golf at some of the finest country clubs in the region (and will again at some matches I'm playing in tomorrow and Friday).

RYK · August 25, 2010 4:04AM

<< 

<< It can be a useful piece of information (see Mark Feld's response), but I do not consider it to be "provenance" when the dealer has purchased the coin for resale. >>

Is RYK posting again? Longacre has many questions in the hopper for the boards (much to a lot of people's chagrin, I am sure), but was waiting for RYK's triumphant return.

PS. I don't have a CRO box, but I proudly wear my CRO hat when I play golf at some of the finest country clubs in the region (and will again at some matches I'm playing in tomorrow and Friday).

>>

RYK is indeed.

Hotfootspin · August 25, 2010 4:05AM

I do not agree that knowing the provenance gives me a negative impression,
except in the case that I do not like that particular dealer.

I do agree that some dealers are known to be "fussy" and having that
provenance lends more credibility to the coin.

I do agree that a coin purchased for resale only, not a part of a dealer's
collection or specialty, need not be anything special.

And I like all the dealers mentioned so far in this thread.

To throw out a few more names ...

What about Brian Greer for bust coins? He has a reputation.

What about Dick Osburn for seated coins? He has a reputation, but he also
has a huge inventory, so it can't all be super special.

What about Doug Bird for early copper? He also has a huge inventory.

What about JH Cline for SLQ? He has some nice coins.

And to go a different direction, what about Red Book contributors? Are they
necessarily anything more special or trustworthy than your typical dealer?
Are their coins anything special? Here are a few names that look familiar to
me, for one reason or another: Chuck Furjanic, Gene Henry, Joel Rettew,
Chris Pilliod, Jack Beymer. Are there coins anything special? Would a coin
with that provenance be of more interest to you?

Thanks,
Mark

Elcontador · August 25, 2010 4:07AM

It can be. If it came from certain dealers whose names I will not mention, this information would tell me that the seller paid too much for said coin. If it came from some other dealers whose names I will not mention, it can mean that said coin is a problem coin (in my eyes).

crypto79 · August 25, 2010 4:19AM

I tend to like the coins that are off of HRLC.com's "list". His eye for his list matches mine for my collection. That being said my budget doesn't match his and I don't have the willpower not to fill holes with lesser coins while I wait for the right ones. I would buy a coin sight unseen for a premium off of his list or off of someone who got it off of there if I needed it.

Dealer Provenance... Is it meaningful to anyone?

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