Premiums paid on beautifully toned coins.......

bidask · August 22, 2010 2:12AM

I see big premiums brought for beautifully toned coins especially high premiums on beautifully toned morgan dollars.

But other coins have great toning as well.......trade dollars, type coins, modern coins.......so what should determine the worth of the premiums paid on any coin?

( we can all agree what someone will pay for it but are their other factors)

I think it has to do with the quantity available of toned coins of any series that drivespremium prices paid ,........the more the quantity available the higher the premiums.......

But should it be that way? Are there other reasons why one series of coins with beautiful toning commands such huge premiums over a different series of toned beautiful coins?

Discuss.

!

Pictures by blu62vette.

djdilliodon · August 22, 2010 2:21AM

How much of a premium all depends on the series and how popular it is, what colors, how vibrant the colors, the grade and everything to do with it (strike, luster ect), what holder its in, and last but not least how bad does someone want it.

coinguy1 · August 22, 2010 2:23AM

Among the factors that can lead to large premiums for color are:

1) The color itself - how beautiful/special it is

2) The number of collectors of/demand for the type of coin - for example - Morgan Dollars!

3) The price/value range for a non-color coin - for example, a $50 coin will typically sell for huge premiums much more readily than a $5000 coin

I disagree with your assertion that "........the more the quantity available the higher the premiums......." I think it's due to strong demand, not large supply.

MidLifeCrisis · August 22, 2010 2:25AM

<< the more the quantity available the higher the premiums >>

Not sure I understand this. It seems to me that higher premiums would be paid if there were fewer beautifully toned coins available...everybody wants one, supply and demand, etc.

But to more specifically answer your question, I think the same factors that apply to coin collecting in a general sense also apply to premiums paid on beautifully toned coins. E.g.,
popularity of the series or coin type;
availability of toned pieces (as I just described);
toning pattern (some toning patterns are more appealing to most collectors than others);
overall rarity of the specific coin

holeinone1972 · August 22, 2010 2:28AM

I don't know but I want that coin, badly. So let's discuss how big a premium you need.

Baley · August 22, 2010 2:32AM

Sometimes the most important factor is the credibility of "the story" used to explain the origin of the color

ricko · August 22, 2010 3:07AM

Fortunately, I have never wasted good coin money on tarnish. Buy the coin, not the tarnish, label, etc etc.... Cheers, RickO

MidLifeCrisis · August 22, 2010 3:33AM

<< Buy the coin, not the tarnish, label, etc etc.... Cheers, RickO >>

How about this: Buy whatever you want. Buy the coin. Buy the label. Buy the pedigree. Buy the + sign. Buy the star. Buy the sticker. Buy the tarnish. Buy the counterfeit. Buy the AT. Buy whatever you want.

GRANDAM · August 22, 2010 3:55AM

<< Fortunately, I have never wasted good coin money on tarnish. Buy the coin, not the tarnish, label, etc etc.... Cheers, RickO >>

bidask · August 22, 2010 4:00AM

<< 

<< Fortunately, I have never wasted good coin money on tarnish. Buy the coin, not the tarnish, label, etc etc.... Cheers, RickO >>

>>

Does that mean you would buy/sell high quality IKES without any thought to premiums for beautifully toned IKES?

Teva · August 22, 2010 4:29AM

Its eye appeal and if thats what you like then you pay for it .
I love toners and I guess that I have paid a small premium
for them in the past.

PawPaul · August 22, 2010 5:46AM

<< I don't know but I want that coin, badly. So let's discuss how big a premium you need.

>>

Yes , let's discuss - I want it too

yellowkid · August 22, 2010 6:09AM

How many examples of a type do you have to look at to find the one you like? Dozens, hundreds, thousands? Probably the latter and that has much to do with the price.

GRANDAM · August 22, 2010 6:15AM

<< 

<< 

<< Fortunately, I have never wasted good coin money on tarnish. Buy the coin, not the tarnish, label, etc etc.... Cheers, RickO >>

>>

Does that mean you would buy/sell high quality IKES without any thought to premiums for beautifully toned IKES? >>

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No it doesn't

I have no problem attaching a premium to a toned coin.

I just have a problem paying a premium

A price a person is willing tp pay is up to that person. Nobody is twisting their arm. I personally won't pay alot for it

DennisH · August 22, 2010 6:25AM

I am not a toning fan, and am effectively clueless to understand why a common date Morgan dollar that's worth $50 as a date+grade can be offered for sale at $2500 or more simply because of it. But as is the case with art, coin beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I long ago gave up trying to make sense of how people choose to spend their money. I know what I'm willing to spend mine on, and toning isn't on the list.

Justacommeman · August 22, 2010 7:33AM

<I am not a toning fan, and am effectively clueless to understand why a common date Morgan dollar that's worth $50 as a date+grade can be offered for sale at $2500 or more simply because of it. But as is the case with art, coin beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I long ago gave up trying to make sense of how people choose to spend their money. I know what I'm willing to spend mine on, and toning isn't on the list>

Because with great toning it makes them less common? I wouldn't expect non toning collectors to understand the premiums. As a toning collector I barely understand them sometimes myself.

I will tell you that if you blink, someone else will buy the primo eye appealing toners regardless of the type of coin. The AT scare has actually put additional premiums on NT coins. Natually toned coins are in SUPER STRONG hands. You have to pry them out of these hands at times. I know this is sad news to those that have predicted the fall and demise of the toned market. Eye appeal never goes of style. To each is own.............. MJ

Durmex · August 22, 2010 8:00AM

I would not want all of my Morgans to be blazing white.
Nor would I want them to all be NT.
They both have eye appeal to me, and I'll pay a premium for that.

Justacommeman · August 22, 2010 8:04AM

<< 
They both have eye appeal to me, and I'll pay a premium for that. >>

well said. MJ

crazyhounddog · August 22, 2010 8:11AM

<< <I am not a toning fan, and am effectively clueless to understand why a common date Morgan dollar that's worth $50 as a date+grade can be offered for sale at $2500 or more simply because of it. But as is the case with art, coin beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I long ago gave up trying to make sense of how people choose to spend their money. I know what I'm willing to spend mine on, and toning isn't on the list>

Because with great toning it makes them less common? I wouldn't expect non toning collectors to understand the premiums. As a toning collector I barely understand them sometimes myself.

I will tell you that if you blink, someone else will buy the primo eye appealing toners regardless of the type of coin. The AT scare has actually put additional premiums on NT coins. Natually toned coins are in SUPER STRONG hands. You have to pry them out of these hands at times. I know this is sad news to those that have predicted the fall and demise of the toned market. Eye appeal never goes of style. To each is own.............. MJ >>

I'm with you MJ, tight pants and all

NotSure · August 22, 2010 8:20AM

<< I am not a toning fan, and am effectively clueless to understand why a common date Morgan dollar that's worth $50 as a date+grade can be offered for sale at $2500 or more simply because of it. But as is the case with art, coin beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I long ago gave up trying to make sense of how people choose to spend their money. I know what I'm willing to spend mine on, and toning isn't on the list. >>

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. I don't like toning (for more than just the AT vs NT argument) as a general rule. Though, a few years ago, I managed to really rip an 1897 Barber dime, NGC MS64 on ebay (perhaps due to it's NGC holder, probability of it not crossing at our hosts), but it had the absolute most GORGEOUS purple/blue toning washed over the entire obverse, still had blazing luster from under it. So nice it was, that I sent it to our hosts, and it crossed to our hosts plastic, same grade. Tried to move it on the bay many times....not a nibble...the few 'offers' were laughbaly low. Had it for a few years, noticed the price didn't budge. Brought it to Boston last week to use as trade....got more in trade than the top 2 offers COMBINED on the 'bay. Threw a few more coins that had no place in my collection any longer (like I have heard time and again, 'less is better', and I see so many people 'thinning their herds' as of late), so traded in a few more coins that were just taking up space, and walked away with 2 '81-CC PCGS MS65 Morgans, one so close to PL it's going back to try, the other in a PCGS GSA holder...I know, it's not the same as a GSA holder...but....

My point being that, in MY experience, with this particular coin and toning pattern, that single sided toning isn't 'all that'. Sure, it could have been the series, date, etc....but the toning, had it been the same on the reverse, instead of blast white, would have had no trouble being sold.

That's just my experience...but it's things like this that make me feel better about not chasing down, and paying big premiums for 'wildly toned' coins that are so 'vividly' toned, they are given names. Not dissing those that love/chase/hunt/overpay by an arm & a leg for these coins, but it's just not for me.

roadrunner · August 22, 2010 8:25AM

There has to be at least reasonable supply to start with to make a market. Look at how the Morgan dollars escalated in price as hoards like Redfield, Continental, and others hit the market. This was counter to the logic that increasing supply would lower prices. I think it's the same way for Morgan toners. The sheer abundance of Morgans has allowed a significant number of toners and DMPL's to remain. This is not the case in something like Bust, Seated or Barber material where it's just hard enough to find a gem never mind demand that it be beautifully NT'd. Hence those areas typically don't bring the monster premiums that we see associated with Morgans, Commems, and post-1933 silver REG set issues. The storage of these earlier types usually didn't lend themselves to achieving monster toning and if they show up looking like a Wayte Raymond toner war-nickel, the first thought will be AT.

roadrunner

Justacommeman · August 22, 2010 8:27AM

There are toned coins and there are nicely toned coin and then there ARE TONED coins. The latter brings the premium. The latter rarely shows up on the bourse in any numbers. JMHO. MJ

PCcoins · August 22, 2010 8:28AM

Well Morgan dollars are the most common coins to find with "rainbow" toning. Which is why I don't understand why they sell for more premiums than any other series, but I guess supply and demand is the key!

JBN · August 22, 2010 8:30AM

To me, toning represents originality - the coin has had to be somewhere for a good long time.

Some toning to me is not eye appealing, so I'll pass.

However, when toning has my eye appeal, I'm 'all in', and there's a 10 page thread on a dead-common 1886 Morgan documenting same.

I'll add that a fully original white coin is also very appealing to me.

However, for a common-date coin, I'd much rather add a beautiful toner to the collection than a white coin.

ecichlid · August 22, 2010 9:04AM

Justacommeman said:" ...Natually toned coins are in SUPER STRONG hands..."

On occasion you make the statement about certain coins being in "strong hands". Would you be kind enough to explain what this means to you?

Justacommeman · August 22, 2010 9:26AM

Sure ecichlid. Fair enough.

In my opinion most great coins are in great collections and will be off the market for the foreseeable future. In my case I know exactly where some of the coins I desire are and I can't pry them out of strong hands. That would perhaps explain the four year wait for a coin I just purchased. In my case I'm talking about toned walkers, commems , Civil War issues and specific Conder tokens. All of the Conder tokens I tried to buy in Boston ended up being for display and not for sale. Prices are not strong enough yet and the coins are not there. They can not replace them at any price,

Just look at the premiums the Duckor coins brought. 37 out of 74 lots brought record prices. Part of the reason IMO is that there where very few other monster coins in the Heritage sale and these received the lions share of attention. A lot of money fighting for few coins.

I've devoted extra funds for coins in 2010 but I've been unable to procure them. Of course my statement reflects my real life personal experiences and may run contrary to your opinion.

Did I address your question properly?

All the best. MJ

PawPaul · August 22, 2010 10:08AM

<< There are toned coins and there are nicely toned coin and then there ARE TONED coins. The latter brings the premium. The latter rarely shows up on the bourse in any numbers. JMHO. MJ >>

and then there ARE TONED coins

..that's the one's I'm talkin about !!

PawPaul · August 22, 2010 10:11AM

strong hands to me means that the owners have a vice like grip on them and you cant pry their fingers loose no matter how much money you offer them .......

ecichlid · August 22, 2010 11:44AM

Thank you Justacommeman. I wanted to make sure that I understood what you wrote before commenting. I can't write anything to the contrary. I think colorful toners are very popular right now.

Still, I think the right price can pry the coin you seek from "strong hands". You just have to have "stronger hands" and make them an offer that makes them think you're a bit crazy. If you think the market for the coins you are collecting are going to continue to rise, you would be best to bite the bullet now. I have a hard time believing premium toned walkers and commems are unable to be purchased today. If you believe the market for these coins are going to go up faster and higher than the people who own them, just make them an offer that shows you are serious. If nobody is accepting your offers, than you are not offering enough.

Justacommeman · August 22, 2010 12:00PM

E

Unfortunately you are wrong about the commems and walkers. Trust me I wish you were correct. There are several collectors just that I know of that are actively working on commem sets and even the dupes aren't coming out. I've actaully worked my way up the dealer food chain list as they know I pay and I actually get some first shots. Still crickets. Walkers- some dates and mint marks rarely come nicely wickedly toned. When they do, I pay up. Dealers know this. Still no coins. Premium toned walkers are much scarcer then people realize. Most of the great ones are on lock down.

MJ

coinguy1 · August 22, 2010 12:04PM

<< E

Unfortunately you are wrong about the commems and walkers. Trust me I wish you were correct. There are several collectors just that I know of that are actively working on commem sets and even the dupes aren't coming out. I've actaully worked my way up the dealer food chain list as they know I pay and I actually get some first shots. Still crickets. Walkers- some dates and mint marks rarely come nicely wickedly toned. When they do, I pay up. Dealers know this. Still no coins. Premium toned walkers are much scarcer then people realize. Most of the great ones are on lock down.

MJ >>

With respect to the classic silver commemoratives in particular, I can definitely vouch for what MJ said.

Most people are highly motivated by money, but not all are. And even among the ones who are, there are those who require a lot more motivation than most of us do, in order to part with their treasures.

lcoopie · August 22, 2010 12:09PM

Beautiful toning adds a kind of
uniqueness
for example, a Vermont in MS66 is not rare,
but I consider mine to be
my unique example, perhaps rare.

ecichlid · August 22, 2010 12:23PM

<< 

<< E

Unfortunately you are wrong about the commems and walkers. Trust me I wish you were correct. There are several collectors just that I know of that are actively working on commem sets and even the dupes aren't coming out. I've actaully worked my way up the dealer food chain list as they know I pay and I actually get some first shots. Still crickets. Walkers- some dates and mint marks rarely come nicely wickedly toned. When they do, I pay up. Dealers know this. Still no coins. Premium toned walkers are much scarcer then people realize. Most of the great ones are on lock down.

MJ >>

With respect to the classic silver commemoratives in particular, I can definitely vouch for what MJ said.

Most people are highly motivated by money, but not all are. And even among the ones who are, there are those who require a lot more motivation than most of us do, in order to part with their treasures. >>

Are you saying that the law of supply and demand does not apply here? The toner is just worth more of a premium than you are willing to pay. Just go into the BST and put a want ad out for the coin you would like and make a fair offer. Let everyone know in the post you will double your offer every week until you purchase the coin you want. I assure you, if the coin you are looking for exists, you will be able to pry it out of strong hands. Try it out if you don't believe me.

Justacommeman · August 22, 2010 12:41PM

You are more bullheaded then your avatar

MJ

ecichlid · August 22, 2010 12:52PM

I'm sorry.

If you stated that these premium toners are not available very often without paying more than they are worth, then I could understand that. In other words, you have to wait for a seller to get motivated on his own without your prodding so that you don't pay crazy money. Is that it?

PCcoins · August 22, 2010 1:12PM

I believe MJ is referring to the creme of the crop, ms67 coins with real "rainbow" toning! Coins that I have never seen offered on the BST, and in strong hands for sure.

BAJJERFAN · August 22, 2010 1:17PM

<<

I'm sorry.

If you stated that these premium toners are not available very often without paying more than they are worth, then I could understand that. In other words, you have to wait for a seller to get motivated on his own without your prodding so that you don't pay crazy money. Is that it? >>

There are some coins in strong hands where the hands don't need the money and that is why money isn't always the motivator that you expect it to be.

Justacommeman · August 22, 2010 1:18PM

Debating ecichlid reminds me of debating my ex-wife. The best I will be able to achieve is a draw

MJ

ecichlid · August 22, 2010 1:27PM

Maybe your ex-wife was right about you?

Ok, ok, I give in. There are collectors who will not sell their premium toners. They cannot be bought until they are ready to sell. These people are not motivated by money when it comes to these particular items. They have strong hands.

BAJJERFAN · August 22, 2010 1:36PM

<< Maybe your ex-wife was right about you?

Ok, ok, I give in. There are collectors who will not sell their premium toners. They cannot be bought until they are ready to sell. These people are not motivated by money when it comes to these particular items. They have strong hands. >>

Don't know if their hands are any stronger, but their desire to possess/own the coins certainly is.

BAJJERFAN · August 22, 2010 1:53PM

<< I see big premiums brought for beautifully toned coins especially high premiums on beautifully toned morgan dollars.

But other coins have great toning as well.......trade dollars, type coins, modern coins.......so what should determine the worth of the premiums paid on any coin?

( we can all agree what someone will pay for it but are their other factors)

I think it has to do with the quantity available of toned coins of any series that drivespremium prices paid ,........the more the quantity available the higher the premiums.......

But should it be that way? Are there other reasons why one series of coins with beautiful toning commands such huge premiums over a different series of toned beautiful coins?

Discuss. >>

First off, Morgans are fairly unique when it comes to banded rainbow toning. There is nothing else quite like the brilliance of a really nice toned Morgan. Secondly there are many many Morgan collectors and lots of Morganologists own multiples of certain dates, mintmarks, VAMs, varieties, etc. and toners are no exception. At 10X sheet for a common date 64 they are only around $600. It would cost considerably more to purchase a really nice toned CBH in similar grade.

krueger · August 22, 2010 2:16PM

At the ANA Show in Boston I wanted to buy a common coin with very nice toning.
The dealer said he would have to charge me a ."Toning tax"!
I estimated it to be about a 100%. I did not buy the coin .

Krueger

Lehigh96 · August 22, 2010 3:51PM

<< Maybe your ex-wife was right about you?

Ok, ok, I give in. There are collectors who will not sell their premium toners. They cannot be bought until they are ready to sell. These people are not motivated by money when it comes to these particular items. They have strong hands. >>

It occurs to me that MJ could provide you with the actual names of the people with strong hands. Since he has not done so, I will respect his reason and not do so either. What I will say is that many of the coins he is talking about reside in the top registry sets and are simply not available for sale and won't be for the foreseeable future.

sinin1 · August 22, 2010 5:37PM

the toned coins have to be big enough to see

your half dimes and dimes are safe

Premiums paid on beautifully toned coins.......

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