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can someone identify the date range for this PCGS holder? (Very important)
DennisH
Posts: 13,975 ✭✭✭✭✭
This is a counterfeit coin and holder. What I need to know is, when was this holder type actually used by PCGS?
When in doubt, don't.
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Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
Lance.
<< <i>I don't see any holder that looks like that one, here. Note that the circular logo on the reverse is nothing Condor cites.
Lance. >>
Lance: I checked that one before starting this thread; Condor's last post to the one you cite was almost 4 years ago, which is why I decided to start this one.
<< <i>Looks like a very recent version. >>
Wei: Please fill me in by how you can tell/suspect this. I'm looking for any evidence I can get as to the approximate manufacture range of this fake. PM me if you prefer.
Hope this helps.
Tom
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>Why not take the trolley ATS and ask Conder101 in person??? >>
Blasphemer! Infidel Unbeliever!
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>
<< <i>Why not take the trolley ATS and ask Conder101 in person??? >>
Blasphemer! Infidel Unbeliever! >>
Hey, its not like I want to build a mosque.
Please visit my website Millcitynumismatics.com
<< <i>Is it just me or is that one amazing looking counterfeit? >>
Scary enough there are better ones out there.
Some person(s) drop into a major show (FUN, ANA, Long Beach, Baltimore) with a dozen such counterfeit slab & coins. Coins such as the one in the OP or any coin in the area of $1500-$2500 Greysheet Ask. Avoiding the major dealers, heading to smaller guys toward the back. At each of these tables you toss out one or two of these slabs with the story, "These were my dad's coins, he paid $1000 each, I'd like to get that out of them". A con like that could net some serious cash. Fly into town, rent a car, 30 minutes at the show, back to the airport, poof gone.
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
<< <i>Picture this scenario...
Some person(s) drop into a major show (FUN, ANA, Long Beach, Baltimore) with a dozen such counterfeit slab & coins. Coins such as the one in the OP or any coin in the area of $1500-$2500 Greysheet Ask. Avoiding the major dealers, heading to smaller guys toward the back. At each of these tables you toss out one or two of these slabs with the story, "These were my dad's coins, he paid $1000 each, I'd like to get that out of them". A con like that could net some serious cash. Fly into town, rent a car, 30 minutes at the show, back to the airport, poof gone. >>
Dealers and collectors have to be more and more careful about what they buy and who they buy from. There is no way any single person can memorize all the different styles of slabs over the years. The sophisticated scammer might use real coins from a lower grade holder, put into a slightly higher grade fake holder, so even an expert on authenticating coins will only be partially protected.
If the fakes get good enough and numerous enough, this kind of stuff has the potential to wreck the market, especially the online collector-to-collector market, where there are very few experts with enough skill and experience to authenticate high quality fakes.
Another scenario might be to post buy-it-now fakes on eBay at 50% of greysheet price. High quality fakes in high quality fake slabs will likely be sold in a hour. If any are returned by the 2% of buyers that have authentication expertise, the seller can do the "consignment" song-and-dance, and try again at a different venue.
Be careful out there.
Anyone else ?
<< <i>I would have been fooled
Anyone else ? >>
Not here. Something looks very wrong with the reverse of the slab especially.
Best,
Eric
<< <i>
<< <i>I would have been fooled
Anyone else ? >>
Not here. Something looks very wrong with the reverse of the slab especially.
Best,
Eric >>
But what about the COIN?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I would have been fooled
Anyone else ? >>
Not here. Something looks very wrong with the reverse of the slab especially.
Best,
Eric >>
But what about the COIN? >>
Hi Mark
Well, I just got up. The scans are not great...the coin might look like a...what do you call it? Combined Obv and Rev? There was talk of some of those a while ago. I can't really see much. Its early and I am not in Columbo mode.
Best,
Eric
Edited to add - if I were offered this in person I'd pass just because the slab looks odd to me - maybe I am wrong.
<< <i>I would have been fooled
Anyone else ? >>
I'm with you.
Tom
<< <i>I have a book called the book of slab varieties by Condor 101, published in 2003. PCGS listed varieties are 1-13. This slab is not listed, because no reverse matches, so it is after 2003. I do have some recent slabs that look like this so I would hazard a guess or 2009-2009. There is also a site if you search www.sampleslabs.com that may help.
Hope this helps. >>
I have the same book. Checked it before starting the thread because it didn't give me any help... except that if it ever did exist it was after 2003.
I send a PM to Condor101... but I don't know if he's still posting here. Does anyone else?
<< <i>
<< <i>I have a book called the book of slab varieties by Condor 101, published in 2003. PCGS listed varieties are 1-13. This slab is not listed, because no reverse matches, so it is after 2003. I do have some recent slabs that look like this so I would hazard a guess or 2009-2009. There is also a site if you search www.sampleslabs.com that may help.
Hope this helps. >>
I have the same book. Checked it before starting the thread because it didn't give me any help... except that if it ever did exist it was after 2003.
I send a PM to Condor101... but I don't know if he's still posting here. Does anyone else? >>
He rarely posts here....
But the obverse label says "Morgan" under the PCGS AU58 on it. That might not mean too much as when I looked they do not do that on all of them. But my last two coins seem to both have then same slab. Will post images for comparsion.
<< <i>
<< <i>I would have been fooled
Anyone else ? >>
Not here. Something looks very wrong with the reverse of the slab especially.
Best,
Eric >>
Would it have stood out to you if the OP didn't note that it was counterfeit? I too noticed that the back of the slab looked a little off, but in looking at the coin, I wouldn't have guessed from what I can see in the pics that it was bad. I would likely have discounted any discomfort I had about the slab because the coin looks so good. I guess I need to read and study more. Hopefully in hand I would not be fooled.
edited for grammer.
Please visit my website Millcitynumismatics.com
<< <i>
<< <i>I have a book called the book of slab varieties by Condor 101, published in 2003. PCGS listed varieties are 1-13. This slab is not listed, because no reverse matches, so it is after 2003. I do have some recent slabs that look like this so I would hazard a guess or 2009-2009. There is also a site if you search www.sampleslabs.com that may help.
Hope this helps. >>
I have the same book. Checked it before starting the thread because it didn't give me any help... except that if it ever did exist it was after 2003.
I send a PM to Condor101... but I don't know if he's still posting here. Does anyone else? >>
Conder101 was banned from the PCGS site several years ago, which is why you may want to go to the NGC site to ask him your question.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>To everyone who's wondering: The fake coin and slab were confirmed by an in-person visit to PCGS early this month. I took it down to them because in hand it looks blatantly and instantly wrong if you're familiar with what 1895-S in higher grades are supposed to look like (lustre, striking characteristics, and VAM diagnostics). It's the first counterfeit I've detected, and it was easy because I'm a Morgan collector with a serious weakness for 1895-S, and because I am a VAM enthusiast. Without those experience/skills, I'd most likely have been hosed. >>
If you didn't get hosed, how do you have it in your possession? --Jerry
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't see any holder that looks like that one, here. Note that the circular logo on the reverse is nothing Condor cites.
Lance. >>
Lance: I checked that one before starting this thread; Condor's last post to the one you cite was almost 4 years ago, which is why I decided to start this one. >>
Dennis, I checked a few slabs from submissions I did and I see many in 2009. E.g., on 7/9/09 I crossed a '93-S Morgan and it has the same slab. If a photo would help I'd be happy to oblige.
edited to add: Same slab, 5/9/08 (1909-S Lincoln), 11/18/08 (1934 Peace), 4/19/10 (1813 CBH)
Lance.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I would have been fooled
Anyone else ? >>
Not here. Something looks very wrong with the reverse of the slab especially.
Best,
Eric >>
Would it have stood out to you if the OP didn't note that it was counterfeit? I too noticed that the back of the slab looked a little off, but in looking at the coin, I wouldn't have guessed from what I can see in the pics that it was bad. I would likely have discounted any discomfort I had about the slab because the coin looks so good. I guess I need to read and study more. Hopefully in hand I would not be fooled.
edited for grammer. >>
Hi,
Probably. Hopefully! Perhaps the font seems different on the lower hologram lettering with hindsight/OP's post. But I'd be wary because, overall, it just looks strange to me and with that date and mm I'd follow my gut.
Best,
Eric
Jerry: Where did I say it's still in my possession? I returned it to the seller and got a refund.
I'm trying to put together information for the U.S. Attorney's office so when they call back I can hopefully put them on the trail of where this coin and two others I strongly suspect (but haven't seen in person) are coming from.
even inspected the case. I guess I have just been lucky so far
I need to get a heads up or I am going to get hurt.
From those pics:
1) The font stood out at me first as being off
2) The coin looks scary real
3) The plastic holder itself looks scary real
Would be a bad day for some dealers if some scum had a pocketful of these at a major coin show.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
<< <i>From those pics:
1) The font stood out at me first as being off
2) The coin looks scary real
3) The plastic holder itself looks scary real
Would be a bad day for some dealers if some scum had a pocketful of these at a major coin show.
The font is the big tell, looks like every other counterfeit holder I've seen.
-Paul
<< <i>But the obverse label says "Morgan" under the PCGS AU58 on it. That might not mean too much as when I looked they do not do that on all of them. But my last two coins seem to both have then same slab. Will post images for comparsion. >>
That's only going to appear on 1921s because Peace dollars were also made that year. Same with 1916-dated silver, 1938 nickels, etc.
do you have coin/slab in hand? - the pics look like it actually has wear/nicks to a lower AU
<< <i>Dennis,
do you have coin/slab in hand? - the pics look like it actually has wear/nicks to a lower AU >>
As stated a few posts up, the coin was returned for a refund. The grade of the coin was pretty much right on, except it had also been wiped/cleaned/something.
<< <i>Dennis,
do you have coin/slab in hand? - the pics look like it actually has wear/nicks to a lower AU >>
In his last post, he wrote: "Jerry: Where did I say it's still in my possession? I returned it to the seller and got a refund."
Edited to add: Oops, I see that he replied at the same time I did.
Lance.