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A warning for ebay sellers of expensive coins
Frankcoins
Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭
This sad tale is posted on the message board rec.collecting.coins
newsgroup. While this particular experience is about bullion coins, the same scam could be done with
numismatic value coins, swapped for an unmarked Chinese fake, which would be even more sticky to prove..in this
case the guy got back a coin marked "copy" so perhaps the mail fraud people might get interested.
--------------------
I sell about 30-40 numismatic items a month on ebay. I've been on ebay
since 1999. Ebay was fun when it was new. Now thay have some ridiculous
"Buyer Complaint" where anyone can complain that they item is not as
described and ebay automatically takes their word. I sold a 2006 Buffalo
one ounce 24 carat gold coin to a man in Tuson, Arizona and he claimed it
was NAD. He said he thought it was slabed. I said noting about slabing in
the listing, I order these BULLION coins from Dillon Gage in Eddison, Texas
and they are still sealed in the rippled plastic sheets direct from the US
Mint. Gold had dropped about $40 an ounce since the buyer bought this coin
so I figured that he was using me as insurance against a gold drop, so yeah
the most I could loose was the $40 gold decline and I would relist. Much to
my dismay Paypal had taken the money out of my account but what I received
was a $50 gold buffalo gold plated replica marked COPY. There is nothing I
can do because Paypal has proof that the item was returned by the buyer even
though it is not the same coin. I am giving this warning to people that
this feature is grossly misused. Due to this and some other issues, I feel
that I will end my ebay days. It is truly much too taxing on me emotionally
and physically. They are far from being on the side of the seller. My wife
is seriously ill and I thought that some of the gold that I put back during
good times would help us when we needed it. I would of been better off
taking it to the scammers that sets up at motels and runs ads in the paper
and pay half of what stuff is worth. At least half is better than zero.
I hate ebay!!!!!
newsgroup. While this particular experience is about bullion coins, the same scam could be done with
numismatic value coins, swapped for an unmarked Chinese fake, which would be even more sticky to prove..in this
case the guy got back a coin marked "copy" so perhaps the mail fraud people might get interested.
--------------------
I sell about 30-40 numismatic items a month on ebay. I've been on ebay
since 1999. Ebay was fun when it was new. Now thay have some ridiculous
"Buyer Complaint" where anyone can complain that they item is not as
described and ebay automatically takes their word. I sold a 2006 Buffalo
one ounce 24 carat gold coin to a man in Tuson, Arizona and he claimed it
was NAD. He said he thought it was slabed. I said noting about slabing in
the listing, I order these BULLION coins from Dillon Gage in Eddison, Texas
and they are still sealed in the rippled plastic sheets direct from the US
Mint. Gold had dropped about $40 an ounce since the buyer bought this coin
so I figured that he was using me as insurance against a gold drop, so yeah
the most I could loose was the $40 gold decline and I would relist. Much to
my dismay Paypal had taken the money out of my account but what I received
was a $50 gold buffalo gold plated replica marked COPY. There is nothing I
can do because Paypal has proof that the item was returned by the buyer even
though it is not the same coin. I am giving this warning to people that
this feature is grossly misused. Due to this and some other issues, I feel
that I will end my ebay days. It is truly much too taxing on me emotionally
and physically. They are far from being on the side of the seller. My wife
is seriously ill and I thought that some of the gold that I put back during
good times would help us when we needed it. I would of been better off
taking it to the scammers that sets up at motels and runs ads in the paper
and pay half of what stuff is worth. At least half is better than zero.
I hate ebay!!!!!
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
0
Comments
<< <i>WOW! pos ebay buyers is what you have to watch out for, unfortunately how do you know until they strike.
Yep...and sellers can only leave positive feedback for buyers!
I just wonder will it help if you videotaped the whole process when opening the returned package?
I used to sell comics on ebay like crazy about six years ago but realized that it was a terribly losing proposition. In my last 3 months of selling I'm sure I made more money for eBay than I did for myself. I could see the trends even back then favoring buyers less and sellers more.
<< <i>I heard of this kind of horror stories before.
I just wonder will it help if you videotaped the whole process when opening the returned package? >>
When I had my B&M store about 10 years ago, someone bought about $1500 in bullion and used a credit card, then
mailed back some washers with a return receipt and got a chargeback on their credit card. We used Discover/Novus
as our credit card processor, and when I called the seller helpline, they had someone out here IN PERSON the next day
to take photos of the package of washers and took down the post office tracking numbers for the mail fraud inspectors
and refunded our account the same day for the fraudulent chargeback. We were made whole and they handled all the
dirty work. We didn't mind paying 2.7% to them for that kind of service and protection.
The customers of Credit card processors are the SELLERS of merchandise, who pay the fees. They are supposed to
work to protect the interests of THEIR customers, who are the sellers. Ebay and Paypal think the buyers are their customers.
<< <i>
<< <i>I heard of this kind of horror stories before.
I just wonder will it help if you videotaped the whole process when opening the returned package? >>
When I had my B&M store about 10 years ago, someone bought about $1500 in bullion and used a credit card, then
mailed back some washers with a return receipt and got a chargeback on their credit card. We used Discover/Novus
as our credit card processor, and when I called the seller helpline, they had someone out here IN PERSON the next day
to take photos of the package of washers and took down the post office tracking numbers for the mail fraud inspectors
and refunded our account the same day for the fraudulent chargeback. We were made whole and they handled all the
dirty work. We didn't mind paying 2.7% to them for that kind of service and protection.
The customers of Credit card processors are the SELLERS of merchandise, who pay the fees. They are supposed to
work to protect the interests of THEIR customers, who are the sellers. Ebay and Paypal think the buyers are their customers. >>
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<< <i>The customers of Credit card processors are the SELLERS of merchandise, who pay the fees. They are supposed to
work to protect the interests of THEIR customers, who are the sellers. Ebay and Paypal think the buyers are their customers. >>
You're exactly right Frank. The problem is paypal is not a merchant account manager, they are a merchant account holder that allows third party sellers access. I don't know if eBay and Paypal think that buyers are their customers, but I am certain that they will act in a way to minimize the risk to their merchant account(s) which includes whacking your bank account for a chargeback when a customer sqwauks for a return.
My Early Large Cents
Still, I'm sorry that you got burned and that eBay has taken a one-sided approach to resolving issues rather than trying to be unbiased and fair.
<< <i>I have come to believe that the safest and easiest way to sell coins is at a coin show. I know stuff can happen - theft, bad checks, dealing with the unwashed masses - but my experience is that you can sell things so much easier and faster. I'm not knocking the BST but in one days I moved more coins at a big show than I was able to do in a month on the BST - could be a patience problem on my part.
Still, I'm sorry that you got burned and that eBay has taken a one-sided approach to resolving issues rather than trying to be unbiased and fair. >>
In thousands of transactions I have never seen a bad check. Show's are a great place to sell for stuff that cannot be consigned to Heritage, or sold off to wholesalers en masse (think proof sets). And you do not even need to have a table. The table fees are hard to get back for the few coins you will get retail for.
BST is fine, but as you pointed out slow and not really designed for commerce. It is very manual and for the six guys that check it, it works great.
You have no proof the guy did what you say (I'm certain you are in the right, but proving it is something all together different)
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
I suppose all we can do is be watchful over ourselves and our loved ones.
Sorry to read about all of this.
<< <i>I have come to believe that the safest and easiest way to sell coins is at a coin show. I know stuff can happen - theft, bad checks, dealing with the unwashed masses - but my experience is that you can sell things so much easier and faster. I'm not knocking the BST but in one days I moved more coins at a big show than I was able to do in a month on the BST - could be a patience problem on my part.
Still, I'm sorry that you got burned and that eBay has taken a one-sided approach to resolving issues rather than trying to be unbiased and fair. >>
Frank didn't get burned, Alan Hardin on the Google Forum got burned; not that it matters who got burned but I'm glad it wasn't Frank. The point is that selling on Ebay is a huge risk, IMHO. I agree with another poster that coin shows are the least risky place to transact business for all parties involved. The problem is that not all collectors or sellers for that matter are able to attend shows for one reason or another. Ebay or something similar will always have a market share but it must be more fair and leaning towards the sellers; seller pay Ebays bills. until sellers revolt against the Ebay system they'll continue to get burned.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Thats what I was thinking. Unless the item was posted to a PO box, the seller has their address.
Edited to add: Very sad indeed. Unfortunately there are a fair few crooks and thieves out there.
Actually, this story is really scary and I hope, since I don;t deal with gold, I never have to suffer through this.
Frank, anyway to get the buyers id? I think some blocking might be in order.
The name is LEE!
If PayPal would screw me, I'll haul the buyer's arse into small claims court.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
If the guy listed the item using stock photos of just a coin, not showing the U.S. mint packaging and/or without his own seller labeling, he's pretty much screwed (isn't he?) if he needs to make a claim.
sorry about the guy's loss.
<< <i>the local police are going to laugh at this if they are anything like my local police.
You have no proof the guy did what you say (I'm certain you are in the right, but proving it is something all together different) >>
It just depends on your police department. My wife got ripped on a playstation a few years back by a guy. She called that person local police department. They sent out a detective and a few days later a refund showed back up.
I am headed to not selling much on ebay anymore. Seems like every month i sell less and less and no longer sell stuff over 500 dollars. That is about as big a hit as i am willing to take now.
FRANK- How come u no longer have a store?
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>
FRANK- How come u no longer have a store? >>
The land and building were owned by the relatives of the store founder Fred Causey. While the executor thought it made sense
to operate as a "going concern", after 10 years the family wanted their money and sued the executor. This was after years of
buying cars and bailbonds for various relatives who said "charge it to my inheritance." I didn't want to buy the family out for
$300,000 for a 40 year old cinderblock building on a street that was once the "Auto Mile" but was now home to a lot of southeast Asian
businesses like grocery stores selling live giant frogs and signs like "DONT LET CHILDREN GET THE CRABS"
<< <i>Alan certainly got a warm welcome on that rec.collecting.coins page!
Yeah, you have to wear an asbestos suit over there. Not a whole lot of posts anymore since so many
Internet providers have ended newsgroup access, but it's still accessible through
Google and still the only totally uncensored and unmoderated
coin group.
<< <i>That is terrible!!!! Dont you have pics of the coin you sent and pics of the coin you received back? I would definitely appeal over the phone with this one. Also, police should definitely get involved. No doubt this is a case of fraud. Any chance you could post the link to the auction so we could all block the bidder? Was the item insured on their delivery? Perhaps the postal service could get involved too. Any chance of calling your credit card company on this one? >>
This didn't happen to me. The problem is Paypal doesn't really have a way to send documents and photos to support the sellers side of the story. It's an automated process and the seller typically gets an email that the decision was made in the buyers favor and there is no appeal process.
<< <i>This old story has been going around forever. Paypal isn't that stupid. You can't buy gold, mail back a rock, and get your money back. --Jerry >>
Wanna bet?
<< <i>
<< <i>This old story has been going around forever. Paypal isn't that stupid. You can't buy gold, mail back a rock, and get your money back. --Jerry >>
Wanna bet? >>
Buyers could probably get away with actual murder if they paid with paypal.
You can follow paypals rules to the "T" and still get ripped.
FRANK- Was your store in Haltom City? The building Mike now owns and sometimes opens?
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Not quite a bat to the knees, but it's up there.
Do you have the address of the scum bag, or is it a PO box?
This situation would have me fired up!
Sorry you have to be the victim Frank.
scott
a friend of mine bought a very fine 1918/7-d buffalo nickel thru ebay for about $450.00. Coin never arrived and he had paid for it thru paypal. He complained to the seller and they said they sent it but did not insure it. In other words they never really sent it. Paypal was able to get all of about $6 back from him from the fraudster checking account. And it goes on and on.
tom arch
buffnixx
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
<< <i>That really sucks Frank. Me personally would consider knocking a few teeth out, and feel good about it.
Not quite a bat to the knees, but it's up there.
Do you have the address of the scum bag, or is it a PO box?
This situation would have me fired up!
Sorry you have to be the victim Frank.
scott >>
Frank was not the victim; just the messenger.
Now back to reality...that's a terrible story. I feel for the seller.
My condolences.
remove the money as soon as received in PAYPAL
<< <i>easy....... no refunds
remove the money as soon as received in PAYPAL >>
Not so easy.
In order to do sizable bidness on feepay, you have to go the merchant account route and the rules are different. If there's enuff $ involved, PP would come after you thru the courts.
Making your terms as clear and thorough as possible on your listing will work in your favor. While feepay/PP have no qualms about screwing sellers those terms can provide you with recourse.
The feepay/PP credo is make the buyers happy. Sellers? They're a dime a dozen and they'll screw you over in a heart beat because there's another eager beaver right behind you ready to take the punishment.
<< <i>easy....... no refunds remove the money as soon as received in PAYPAL >>
I laugh when people think that removing the money gives them some sort of protection....
<< <i>
<< <i>This old story has been going around forever. Paypal isn't that stupid. You can't buy gold, mail back a rock, and get your money back. --Jerry >>
Wanna bet? >>
Let's give it a try. One of us purchase a gold coin from the other, I don't care which. File the SNAD, return a rock, and see what paypal says. We can publish our results. Of course the agreement is that we make each other whole behind the scenes.
--jerry
Problem is someone will encounter some fees with E-Bay along the way. The postage is no big deal, but if you do it with a BIN on a $1000 item it's going to cost 50 or 60 bucks. Not sure you'll ever get that $$$ back.
The otehr problem is that chargebacks now go against ratings. I sure don't want to loose my Top Tier Powerscrewer ratings to prove a point.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Yep-that was me. Happened 8 or 9 years ago. The criminal simply removed most of the money from the account he had linked to ebay. He ripped a whole lot of other people, too, with deals that were "too good to be true." I learned my lesson with that one.
<< <i>Ebay is for coins worth less than $500... stick with that and you'll be OK >>
I agree, and only sell to buyers with 100% feedback and more than XX purchases, some of which have been coins. Every time you sell on ebay you are taking a chance you may be ripped off.
<< <i>I agree, and only sell to buyers with 100% feedback... >>
Only positive feedback can be left for buyers. 100% ratings are meaningless.