For two years now I've been trying to complete my collection of 1995-D and 1996-D Olympic silver dollars. I started the collection with coins in the original US Mint packaging, and I want to finish it that way.
When I look on eBay, there are plenty of the coins at any given time, but they are all NGC and PCGS slabbed. Very few are offered in (or with) the original packaging. Personally, I would pay more for an MS69 in the original packaging than a PCGS or NCG MS70.
Certified MS/PR 70 grades are not what they used to be (unobtainable).
Yesterday, I agreed to meet a collector at his bank to review his coin collections ... $20 Libs, $20 Saints, Morgan Dollars, modern gold and platinum eagles and classic gold and silver commems all slabbed. My "marching orders" were to pull any coins that might upgrade and would result in serious monetary reward if they worked. I pulled $20 Libs, Morgans, modern gold and platinum, etc. It made no difference whether they were modern or classic. Big upgrades are big upgrades... that is what I was looking for. If anyone on this thread suggests that one can not tell the difference between 69 and 70 graded moderns... try looking at a box of (20) $20 Libs graded at different points in times (as I did yesterday). The serious collector of $20 Libs I was meeting with was the first to tell me that his own coins in the same grades were, in his view, a point or two different from each other at times (and I agreed with him). Anyway, in the end the only difference between the moderns and classics is that they need to be submitted on different PCGS invoices for the possible upgrades. The collector was excited ... he has classics that can go up thousands and thousands of dollars in value if the upgrades work as well as moderns that can go up thousands and thousands of dollars if they work. I had no problem whatsoever chosing the modern 69 graded coins to submit for possible upgrade. I had my (18) year old son Justin with me and it took him about 10 seconds a coin to review each 69 and to create a small pile of shot upgrade moderns for me to screen down to the actual submit group (I knocked just one of Justin's coins out of the submit group as he missed a small hidden tick on one of the coins). Same process I used on the classics - except I prescreened the shot upgrades along side the collector. It's all the same.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I remember I bought 69dc quarters and had to fight to make a 40 cent profit a coin in at 5.00 out at 5.40. Those modern 69 70 coins are no great find with modern technology.
Founder of the NDCCA. *WAM Count : 025. *NDCCA Database Count : 2,610. *You suck 6/24/10. In memory of Tiggar 5/21/1994 - 5/28/2010
<< <i>They're my children's birth year proof sets (1999,2000). The #1 problem is that the price delta between PR69DC and PR70DC is too high and there's no marketable difference to the naked eye. The #2 problem is you can't improve on a PR70DC. There are very few MS69 business strikes (out of 42 different coins, there are only 92 MS69 (half, or 46 of them are 1999-D 1C - only 13 of the 42 coins have any MS69) and there are NO MS70. The third problem is you can't improve your PR69DC or PR70DC coins with a Plus.
So my children were stuck with devaluing unimprovable coins. Where's the fun in collecting something you can't improve? >>
Oh I dont know...whats wrong with collecting something you like??? I started my current collecting with proof SAEs.I like the coin . I often take them out to look them over.I asked the forum over a year ago if I was overpaying for slabbed ones pf 70 for about $80.00 and the resounding answer was yes.So what ?? I like them and enjoy the coins What I wont do is pay a few hundred dollars or more for the earliest ones slabbed.Thats the kind of price that you probably wont get at resale time.I am fine with pf 69s or raw examples for expensive examples.
Demand brings things out of the woodwork. The biggest problem I see with moderns is the untapped supply. Just as in classic coins when the price is up and demand up, things seem to show up out of nowhere. >>
This is quite true but what many people don't realize is that many moderns are not in the woodwork. No price will turn up quantities of some of these coins and even increases of a hundred fold would have little effect on most of them.
Again though, it depends on what you're talking about. A huge increase in demand whether real or percieved could bring significant quantities of some- thing like a 1988-D MS-68 cent to market. With sharply higher prices the grad- ing would tend to get a little looser bringing more on the market. This is be- cause these coins are in the woodwork. It's the same with many of the high- mintage coins made since 1999 and lots of the somewhat older coins.
But no price is bringing out 1970 Indian proof sets because attrition was high and mintage was low. No price is bringing out 1972-D type "b" reverse quarters because these coins weren't saved. If coins are rare the available supply is independent of price. Many moderns are simply unavailable. Very few were saved and most of the ones that have come on the market were simply released back into circulation because this is what dealers tell people to do with modern junk. When you start with very low numbers and add in a staggering attrition then there just aren't any coins in the woodwork. In half a century many of the houses and their woodwork have burned down, flooded out, or been bulldozed to build anew. Now days they don't remod- el public buildings they raze them and build new.
Rare is rare and it doesn't matter whether the coin was made yesterday or 200 years ago.
I personally never got into modern proofs... or paying big bucks for DC69-70s. But I do love business strike coins both modern and classic.
I just don't believe the demand is there for high grade coins from the '70s-'90s, both business strike and proofs. Of course there's the few big dogs that play the registry game, but most collectors do not! But maybe down the road 10-20 years they will be in demand? who knows?
<< <i>I personally never got into modern proofs... or paying big bucks for DC69-70s. But I do love business strike coins both modern and classic.
I just don't believe the demand is there for high grade coins from the '70s-'90s, both business strike and proofs. Of course there's the few big dogs that play the registry game, but most collectors do not! But maybe down the road 10-20 years they will be in demand? who knows? >>
It might never happen.
But moderns are the only coins you can collect in gem on a shoestring budget. I believe this makes them very attractive and it's the reason demand just keeps growing. The only reason some of these are cheap is that the demand is "unnaturally" low. When people dis- cover the challenge of these sets there will be more interest and more demand.
I had one experienced coin buyer tell me that proof gold eagles would always only worth the value of the gold. About a year after selling some to him at spot I noticed the Gold Eagle Proof sets go to $3500 or more each. Wow was that guy ever wrong. Shows you that you can never know what things are going to do. They can go up or down and they do.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
Demand brings things out of the woodwork. The biggest problem I see with moderns is the untapped supply. Just as in classic coins when the price is up and demand up, things seem to show up out of nowhere. >>
This is quite true but what many people don't realize is that many moderns are not in the woodwork. No price will turn up quantities of some of these coins and even increases of a hundred fold would have little effect on most of them.
Again though, it depends on what you're talking about. A huge increase in demand whether real or percieved could bring significant quantities of some- thing like a 1988-D MS-68 cent to market. With sharply higher prices the grad- ing would tend to get a little looser bringing more on the market. This is be- cause these coins are in the woodwork. It's the same with many of the high- mintage coins made since 1999 and lots of the somewhat older coins.
But no price is bringing out 1970 Indian proof sets because attrition was high and mintage was low. No price is bringing out 1972-D type "b" reverse quarters because these coins weren't saved. If coins are rare the available supply is independent of price. Many moderns are simply unavailable. Very few were saved and most of the ones that have come on the market were simply released back into circulation because this is what dealers tell people to do with modern junk. When you start with very low numbers and add in a staggering attrition then there just aren't any coins in the woodwork. In half a century many of the houses and their woodwork have burned down, flooded out, or been bulldozed to build anew. Now days they don't remod- el public buildings they raze them and build new.
Rare is rare and it doesn't matter whether the coin was made yesterday or 200 years ago. >>
Cladking,
Very well thought out and expressed answer. Thank you for not making me look really unknowledgeable while doing it.
Ron
Collect for the love of the hobby, the beauty of the coins, and enjoy the ride.
"But no price is bringing out 1970 Indian proof sets because attrition was high and mintage was low."
What is a 1970 Indian proof set?
Yes -- this is a serious question. >>
I believe it's India, not Indian...........found them on ebay.
Leo >>
You mean a proof set from 1970 struck by the country of India? If so, I'm not sure how this relates to a discussion of US moderns. I guess I need more coffee this morning.
You mean a proof set from 1970 struck by the country of India? If so, I'm not sure how this relates to a discussion of US moderns. I guess I need more coffee this morning. >>
It gets to the definition of what exactly is modern.
Countries made their coins out of silver and gold for many years until WW II when one country after another dropped the precious metal content and switched to base metals. In every instance collectors simply stopped setting aside new coins and the US was no different.
The biggest difference between a 1963 quarter and a 1966 isn't that the former is a real coin and the latter is base metal fiat junk. The big difference is millions of collectors and noncollectors set aside 1963 quar- ters either for numismatic appreciation or because they believed silver would go up. The biggest difference numismatically speaking is that the silver was collected and the clad wasn't. This is what defines the modern era.
The Indian proof set isn't rare and Melvin289's point is valid even for it; that higher prices bring coins out of the woodwork. But the point remains that this is only the available supply affected. There are on- ly a couple thousand of these sets in existence and any increase in the market supply can evaoporate quite quickly.
Other moderns were made in larger numbers but none were saved so price is irrelevent to availability. It's not impossible that some of these exist "in the woodwork" but usually not and the numbers should usually be quite low.
It's easier to see what happened with moderns if you look with a broad- er perspective that includes world coins because they did experience the same thing and generally several years earlier.
Now in one country after another collectors are seeking the later coins and often finding them virtually nonexistent. In the US the interest in the later coins started first even though we were the "last" to lose the silver but the interest here is primarily in high grades. Almost the entire world went from 1965 to 1999 without adding any new collectors and now there are millions and millions. Some of the coins these collectors demand have never been collected before and they are driving prices higher.
I think folks on the US forum "light side" get an immune reaction when a foreign country is mentioned! Anyway, there are many potential emerging collectors in other countries as well as our own. Some even collect US!
Late date moderns, whether US or foreign and less interestingly NCLT are great!!!
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
To expand on Cladking's point that possibly some modern supply is still in the woodwork, how many are actually top-grade registry-caliber singles? The uncirculated quality of whatever was saved by the roll would be purely random.
<< <i>To expand on Cladking's point that possibly some modern supply is still in the woodwork, how many are actually top-grade registry-caliber singles? The uncirculated quality of whatever was saved by the roll would be purely random. >>
Not only was high quality generally unappreciated before it caught on in the late-'70's but very few rolls of clads were saved because the quality tended to be awful. A brand new roll of coins could look like and have as little detail as VF's. Even the better quality coinage was often quite poor. There wasn't any real interest in these coins so there weren't high quality collections being formed. Trying to find some of these coins in nice condition was a major job.
There were only three or four sources for most of the moderns in those days. One was in western Pennsylvania, one in southern In- diana, one in California and another in the east (probably Baltimore). The first two were the largest and only distributed a bag or two of most of these. If a coin wasn't released in these areas then it may not have been saved at all. Many bags in those days contained no gems. Individuals set aside a roll here and a bag there but the to- tal for some dates was only a few hundred rolls and attrition has been heavy on these.
The total number of some coins saved (like gem '69 25c) is quite like- ly zero. There were no uncirculated 1977 type "d" reverse quarters saved and the number of '72-D type "b" may not be any greater. Ot- her coins were often saved in extremely limited numbers and varieties tended to all get released to circulation because they weren't found until years later. The coins in circulation are so poorly checked that most are still there except those which have been permanently lost.
If it weren't for the existence of mint sets most of the moderns would be scarce or rare in high grade. But mint sets are no panacea since large percentages have been destroyed and many moderns don't ap- pear in them. Sometimes mint set quality is quite low as well.
This is a variation on a theme played out worldwide. Some countries didn't have mint sets and even high mintage regular issues can be quite scarce. Despite the low demand prices in some cases exceed $1000 just for mint state.
If history and human nature are any guide this situation will not per- sist indefinitely. There will be more demand for these rare coins and as demand and prices increase we'll see what comes out ofg the wood- work. Those who have been paying attention do have a feel for it al- ready but it will be surprising if there aren't a few surprises.
It sounds as if the arguments for low survivor clad coins mirror in some ways why early copper coins are conditionally rare: poor planchet preparation, quality control issues at the mintage, and a lack of collector interest (because there were few collectors at the time). That's a perspective that may actually bridge the chasm between the groups.
That said, there is absolutely no question in my mind that there is quite a bit of loose change around in high condition. Example from myself: I'm selling off some my uncertified regular minted cents to concentrate on proofs from 1793-present. I've been plucking PQ coins since about the mid 80's and used my father's penny jar he'd been saving from the early 60's to fill in some holes.
Most are not of the highest grade and are consistent with what one would find in a penny roll. But some are quite spectacular...
I'll be send them to PCGS soon for their opinion.
Word to the wise, if you have a top pop 1982 copper cent now may be a good time to sell it
Comments
I started the collection with coins in the original US Mint packaging, and I want to finish it that way.
When I look on eBay, there are plenty of the coins at any given time, but they are all NGC and PCGS slabbed.
Very few are offered in (or with) the original packaging. Personally, I would pay more for an MS69 in the
original packaging than a PCGS or NCG MS70.
Certified MS/PR 70 grades are not what they used to be (unobtainable).
Wondercoin
<< <i>They're my children's birth year proof sets (1999,2000). The #1 problem is that the price delta between PR69DC and PR70DC is too high and there's no marketable difference to the naked eye. The #2 problem is you can't improve on a PR70DC. There are very few MS69 business strikes (out of 42 different coins, there are only 92 MS69 (half, or 46 of them are 1999-D 1C - only 13 of the 42 coins have any MS69) and there are NO MS70. The third problem is you can't improve your PR69DC or PR70DC coins with a Plus.
So my children were stuck with devaluing unimprovable coins. Where's the fun in collecting something you can't improve? >>
Oh I dont know...whats wrong with collecting something you like??? I started my current collecting with proof SAEs.I like the coin . I often take them out to look them over.I asked the forum over a year ago if I was overpaying for slabbed ones pf 70 for about $80.00 and the resounding answer was yes.So what ?? I like them and enjoy the coins
What I wont do is pay a few hundred dollars or more for the earliest ones slabbed.Thats the kind of price that you probably wont get at resale time.I am fine with pf 69s or raw examples for expensive examples.
<< <i>
Demand brings things out of the woodwork. The biggest problem I see with moderns is the untapped supply.
Just as in classic coins when the price is up and demand up, things seem to show up out of nowhere.
>>
This is quite true but what many people don't realize is that many moderns
are not in the woodwork. No price will turn up quantities of some of these
coins and even increases of a hundred fold would have little effect on most
of them.
Again though, it depends on what you're talking about. A huge increase in
demand whether real or percieved could bring significant quantities of some-
thing like a 1988-D MS-68 cent to market. With sharply higher prices the grad-
ing would tend to get a little looser bringing more on the market. This is be-
cause these coins are in the woodwork. It's the same with many of the high-
mintage coins made since 1999 and lots of the somewhat older coins.
But no price is bringing out 1970 Indian proof sets because attrition was
high and mintage was low. No price is bringing out 1972-D type "b" reverse
quarters because these coins weren't saved. If coins are rare the available
supply is independent of price. Many moderns are simply unavailable. Very
few were saved and most of the ones that have come on the market were
simply released back into circulation because this is what dealers tell people
to do with modern junk. When you start with very low numbers and add in
a staggering attrition then there just aren't any coins in the woodwork. In
half a century many of the houses and their woodwork have burned down,
flooded out, or been bulldozed to build anew. Now days they don't remod-
el public buildings they raze them and build new.
Rare is rare and it doesn't matter whether the coin was made yesterday or
200 years ago.
I just don't believe the demand is there for high grade coins from the '70s-'90s, both business strike and proofs. Of course there's the few big dogs that play the registry game, but most collectors do not! But maybe down the road 10-20 years they will be in demand? who knows?
<< <i>I personally never got into modern proofs... or paying big bucks for DC69-70s. But I do love business strike coins both modern and classic.
I just don't believe the demand is there for high grade coins from the '70s-'90s, both business strike and proofs. Of course there's the few big dogs that play the registry game, but most collectors do not! But maybe down the road 10-20 years they will be in demand? who knows? >>
It might never happen.
But moderns are the only coins you can collect in gem on a shoestring budget. I believe
this makes them very attractive and it's the reason demand just keeps growing. The only
reason some of these are cheap is that the demand is "unnaturally" low. When people dis-
cover the challenge of these sets there will be more interest and more demand.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Demand brings things out of the woodwork. The biggest problem I see with moderns is the untapped supply.
Just as in classic coins when the price is up and demand up, things seem to show up out of nowhere.
>>
This is quite true but what many people don't realize is that many moderns
are not in the woodwork. No price will turn up quantities of some of these
coins and even increases of a hundred fold would have little effect on most
of them.
Again though, it depends on what you're talking about. A huge increase in
demand whether real or percieved could bring significant quantities of some-
thing like a 1988-D MS-68 cent to market. With sharply higher prices the grad-
ing would tend to get a little looser bringing more on the market. This is be-
cause these coins are in the woodwork. It's the same with many of the high-
mintage coins made since 1999 and lots of the somewhat older coins.
But no price is bringing out 1970 Indian proof sets because attrition was
high and mintage was low. No price is bringing out 1972-D type "b" reverse
quarters because these coins weren't saved. If coins are rare the available
supply is independent of price. Many moderns are simply unavailable. Very
few were saved and most of the ones that have come on the market were
simply released back into circulation because this is what dealers tell people
to do with modern junk. When you start with very low numbers and add in
a staggering attrition then there just aren't any coins in the woodwork. In
half a century many of the houses and their woodwork have burned down,
flooded out, or been bulldozed to build anew. Now days they don't remod-
el public buildings they raze them and build new.
Rare is rare and it doesn't matter whether the coin was made yesterday or
200 years ago. >>
Cladking,
Very well thought out and expressed answer. Thank you for not making me look really unknowledgeable while doing it.
Ron
I think both past and present registry collectors could give some interesting answers to this one....but where are they?
The best answer I can give is...............they put their money on the wrong horses!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I do have one question:
"But no price is bringing out 1970 Indian proof sets because attrition was high and mintage was low."
What is a 1970 Indian proof set?
Yes -- this is a serious question.
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>Interesting thread.
I do have one question:
"But no price is bringing out 1970 Indian proof sets because attrition was high and mintage was low."
What is a 1970 Indian proof set?
Yes -- this is a serious question. >>
I believe it's India, not Indian...........found them on ebay.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>Interesting thread.
I do have one question:
"But no price is bringing out 1970 Indian proof sets because attrition was high and mintage was low."
What is a 1970 Indian proof set?
Yes -- this is a serious question. >>
I believe it's India, not Indian...........found them on ebay.
Leo >>
You mean a proof set from 1970 struck by the country of India? If so, I'm not sure how this relates to a discussion of US moderns. I guess I need more coffee this morning.
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>
You mean a proof set from 1970 struck by the country of India? If so, I'm not sure how this relates to a discussion of US moderns. I guess I need more coffee this morning. >>
It gets to the definition of what exactly is modern.
Countries made their coins out of silver and gold for many years until
WW II when one country after another dropped the precious metal
content and switched to base metals. In every instance collectors
simply stopped setting aside new coins and the US was no different.
The biggest difference between a 1963 quarter and a 1966 isn't that
the former is a real coin and the latter is base metal fiat junk. The big
difference is millions of collectors and noncollectors set aside 1963 quar-
ters either for numismatic appreciation or because they believed silver
would go up. The biggest difference numismatically speaking is that
the silver was collected and the clad wasn't. This is what defines the
modern era.
The Indian proof set isn't rare and Melvin289's point is valid even for
it; that higher prices bring coins out of the woodwork. But the point
remains that this is only the available supply affected. There are on-
ly a couple thousand of these sets in existence and any increase in
the market supply can evaoporate quite quickly.
Other moderns were made in larger numbers but none were saved
so price is irrelevent to availability. It's not impossible that some of
these exist "in the woodwork" but usually not and the numbers should
usually be quite low.
It's easier to see what happened with moderns if you look with a broad-
er perspective that includes world coins because they did experience the
same thing and generally several years earlier.
Now in one country after another collectors are seeking the later coins
and often finding them virtually nonexistent. In the US the interest in
the later coins started first even though we were the "last" to lose the
silver but the interest here is primarily in high grades. Almost the entire
world went from 1965 to 1999 without adding any new collectors and
now there are millions and millions. Some of the coins these collectors
demand have never been collected before and they are driving prices
higher.
Late date moderns, whether US or foreign and less interestingly NCLT are great!!!
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>To expand on Cladking's point that possibly some modern supply is still in the woodwork, how many are actually top-grade registry-caliber singles? The uncirculated quality of whatever was saved by the roll would be purely random. >>
Not only was high quality generally unappreciated before it caught
on in the late-'70's but very few rolls of clads were saved because
the quality tended to be awful. A brand new roll of coins could look
like and have as little detail as VF's. Even the better quality coinage
was often quite poor. There wasn't any real interest in these coins
so there weren't high quality collections being formed. Trying to find
some of these coins in nice condition was a major job.
There were only three or four sources for most of the moderns in
those days. One was in western Pennsylvania, one in southern In-
diana, one in California and another in the east (probably Baltimore).
The first two were the largest and only distributed a bag or two of
most of these. If a coin wasn't released in these areas then it may
not have been saved at all. Many bags in those days contained no
gems. Individuals set aside a roll here and a bag there but the to-
tal for some dates was only a few hundred rolls and attrition has been
heavy on these.
The total number of some coins saved (like gem '69 25c) is quite like-
ly zero. There were no uncirculated 1977 type "d" reverse quarters
saved and the number of '72-D type "b" may not be any greater. Ot-
her coins were often saved in extremely limited numbers and varieties
tended to all get released to circulation because they weren't found
until years later. The coins in circulation are so poorly checked that
most are still there except those which have been permanently lost.
If it weren't for the existence of mint sets most of the moderns would
be scarce or rare in high grade. But mint sets are no panacea since
large percentages have been destroyed and many moderns don't ap-
pear in them. Sometimes mint set quality is quite low as well.
This is a variation on a theme played out worldwide. Some countries
didn't have mint sets and even high mintage regular issues can be quite
scarce. Despite the low demand prices in some cases exceed $1000
just for mint state.
If history and human nature are any guide this situation will not per-
sist indefinitely. There will be more demand for these rare coins and
as demand and prices increase we'll see what comes out ofg the wood-
work. Those who have been paying attention do have a feel for it al-
ready but it will be surprising if there aren't a few surprises.
That said, there is absolutely no question in my mind that there is quite a bit of loose change around in high condition. Example from myself: I'm selling off some my uncertified regular minted cents to concentrate on proofs from 1793-present. I've been plucking PQ coins since about the mid 80's and used my father's penny jar he'd been saving from the early 60's to fill in some holes.
Most are not of the highest grade and are consistent with what one would find in a penny roll. But some are quite spectacular...
I'll be send them to PCGS soon for their opinion.
Word to the wise, if you have a top pop 1982 copper cent now may be a good time to sell it