<< <i>As someone with some chemistry experience myself, I have to agree with 7Jaguars. I never did this kind of chemistry professionally, but even I can think of lots of ways to make AT coins through sealed bags or slabs that aren't air-tight. There are a million ways to oxidize or reduce metal surfaces, or apply thin layers of metals on coins. I can think of ways to do this with liquids, gases, through electrolysis, or even by putting coins in atmospheres of charged plasma where layers of metals a few microns thick can be drawn to the charged surface of a coin (maybe that's a way to fill in hairlines on proof gold coins to make them look better?).
There are thousands of labs in the USA with the equipment to do this sort of thing, because the equipment is used for other, common purposes like forensic/environmental/biochem analysis and sample preparation, materials synthesis, and electron microscopy work. Therefore, it seems to me that there are thousands of collectors with lab access who could make convincing AT coins with a little effort if they were so inclined. Moreover, they can probably make AT coins in a way that looks almost indistinguishable from NT, since the physical process is very similar.
I don't doubt that Mark and other experienced dealers have seen rainbow-toned coins come out of sealed bags, and the coins they've seen could very well have been NT. However, I don't think it's impossible that they were AT even if they came out of sealed bags 30 years ago. If there was any premium for toned coins when these sealed bags were opened, it seems like there would have been a financial incentive to find a way to tone the coins in the bag. That could have been done by gassing the bags with some sort of oxidizer, and it doesn't need to be sulfur, or elemental sulfur like one of the posters mentioned was hard to control. There are millions of oxidizing agents and thousands of compounds of sulfur that could do the trick, and each one of them would have different ways of reacting with the surface of a silver dollar. It shouldn't be that hard to identify at least one of those millions of chemicals that could accelerate natural toning processes on a silver dollar in a convincing way. Even if the financial incentive wasn't huge 20-30 years ago, if there was any difference, I think someone would have done it. Most chemicals are cheap. It might cost almost nothing and take little effort to tone a bag of uncirculated silver dollars. Plus, there's little downside since any fugly results could be dipped.
It also strikes me as odd that it doesn't seem like rainbow-toned coins are nearly as common in foreign coin series as US coin series. Perhaps this is because toned coins were dipped in the past, or because they were never stored like Morgan dollars, etc. Undoubtedly, collectors who have invested a lot of money in toned coins have some reasonable explanations, but that alone is a big obstacle for me to believe that most toned US coins in TPG holders are NT. If so, wouldn't there be a similar incidence of rainbow-toned British coins, for example?
Finally, in another thread, bushmaster, who I don't know personally, but who strikes me as an extremely well-informed and knowledgeable forum member, commented that he's amazed by the scope of the AT problem. It sounds like he thinks that there are an awful lot of expensive AT coins in PCGS and NGC holders, and that the graders either can't identify AT most of the time, or don't care (perhaps because AT isn't covered by either services' guarantee, even if a few AT coins here and there have been purchased in the past as a courtesy to instill confidence?). Bushmaster has pointed out in other threads some of the subtle clues that betray the work of coin doctors who make AT coins - things like flecks of certain colors in other colors, etc. - patterns and appearances that evidently never appear in nature. His explanations ring true to me, and so do his warnings about the inevitable collapse of that segment of the market once people realize how prevalent AT coins really are.
At the end of the day, after digesting this information, it seems risky for anyone to pay significant premiums for toned coins. If someone ever figures out how to identify AT with scientific certainty, a lot of good people might lose a fortune. If I was sitting on a valuable collection of toned coins, I'd want to get out of it now while it's still possible. >>
You present a good argument, and I'm sure that it is possible to effect toning through a slab, but I don't know to what extent a credible creation can be produced. Warnings of a collapse in the toned coin market remind me of a similar alarm raised years ago about counterfeit sports cards, it just never seemed to materialize. As for the popularity of toners, I would not be collecting coins if all I had to choose from was white coins, it might be heaven for Rick-o but I find white coins boring. Like an antique collector who develops a taste for early painted surfaces, once an appreciation for color or patina in coins is acquired, it is unlikely that a "mint" look will ever again satisfy the collecting palate.
I will add, however, for those that believe the toned GSAs were AT'd, please let us know what the Government is hiding in Area 51. Thanks. >>
That's some edit-job. You cut it just as I was getting ready to reply to it.
OK, this is my understanding. The ones that made it into the GSA slabs were "white." I've owned maybe 30 or 40 of these, but I've seen probably hundreds more, in-hand, and, of course, in photographs, and I've never seen a toned one. If that's the case, that these were slabbed "white," then toned afterward while they were in the slabs, how is that, by any stretch of the imagination, "mint bag toning?" I don't understand that.
Then, again, I've asked, several times, to be shown just one toned one still in the GSA slab, and it's like, yeah, they exist, but they're secreted away in Area 51. I mean, really, can anyone show me one? What do I need for that, a FOIA form? I know what the representations are, I'd just like to actually see one. >>
Edited to add: That involved a search of about two minutes. I didn't care to spend additional time, but it's not at all difficult to find listings of "just one toned one still in the GSA slab", or, for that matter, quantities of them. And ditto for having seen them at coin shows over a long period of time. >>
You made your point. Thank you for that, Mark. As regards your edit, you're right, it hadn't occurred to me to search the threads in the forum.
I will add, however, for those that believe the toned GSAs were AT'd, please let us know what the Government is hiding in Area 51. Thanks. >>
That's some edit-job. You cut it just as I was getting ready to reply to it.
OK, this is my understanding. The ones that made it into the GSA slabs were "white." I've owned maybe 30 or 40 of these, but I've seen probably hundreds more, in-hand, and, of course, in photographs, and I've never seen a toned one. If that's the case, that these were slabbed "white," then toned afterward while they were in the slabs, how is that, by any stretch of the imagination, "mint bag toning?" I don't understand that.
Then, again, I've asked, several times, to be shown just one toned one still in the GSA slab, and it's like, yeah, they exist, but they're secreted away in Area 51. I mean, really, can anyone show me one? What do I need for that, a FOIA form? I know what the representations are, I'd just like to actually see one. >>
Do a search for author GSAGUY in the BST forum and you will find several examples in the first few items. It is my understanding that the really butt ugly drecky ones were not sold by the GSA. >>
It looks like you and Mark Feld were writing at the same time and you came in second.
Gee, there's just no getting rid of this guy (meaning me)!
OK, one more thing. I think I can accept, now, that toned Morgans had indeed been GSA-slabbed. What had always troubled me, before, was, I had always thought the GSA had only slabbed "whites." I'm only logged in for this reply (I'm doing the multi-tasking thing, right now), but I'd like to ask, do you all see these toned GSAs as prototypes, if you will, for what "mint bag toning" should look like? I'd think these would reasonably serve as pretty strong evidence of that. Back then, I hadn't heard of any dealer sulfur-dipping Morgans (quite to the contrary, if they dipped them, it was to achieve "white"), and, certainly the GSA didn't do that. Basically, there wasn't the money in that, back then (simulating mint bag toning), as there is, today. I'd just think these would be the "smoking gun," if you will, that would silence the critics, as regards what mint bag toning should look like. As such, I'd think these should be guarded like gold. In fact, given that quite a large number of these had been "cracked out," back then, and perhaps even dipped, back when the TPGs had arrived (early '80s), I'd think these toned ones, still in the slabs, could rightfully go at premiums, for just that. Now, what am I missing?
<< <i>Gee, there's just no getting rid of this guy (meaning me)!
OK, one more thing. I think I can accept, now, that toned Morgans had indeed been GSA-slabbed. What had always troubled me, before, was, I had always thought the GSA had only slabbed "whites." I'm only logged in for this reply (I'm doing the multi-tasking thing, right now), but I'd like to ask, do you all see these toned GSAs as prototypes, if you will, for what "mint bag toning" should look like? I'd think these would reasonably serve as pretty strong evidence of that. Back then, I hadn't heard of any dealer sulfur-dipping Morgans (quite to the contrary, if they dipped them, it was to achieve "white"), and, certainly the GSA didn't do that. Basically, there wasn't the money in that, back then (simulating mint bag toning), as there is, today. I'd just think these would be the "smoking gun," if you will, that would silence the critics, as regards what mint bag toning should look like. As such, I'd think these should be guarded like gold. In fact, given that quite a large number of these had been "cracked out," back then, and perhaps even dipped, back when the TPGs had arrived (early '80s), I'd think these toned ones, still in the slabs, could rightfully go at premiums, for just that. Now, what am I missing? >>
Any documented Mint sealed bag of Morgans shud serve as a poster child for what bag toned Morgans ought to look like. I can't believe folks are so mis/distrusting of those who have personal knowledge of Mint bags being opened.
<< <i>Gee, there's just no getting rid of this guy (meaning me)!
OK, one more thing. I think I can accept, now, that toned Morgans had indeed been GSA-slabbed. What had always troubled me, before, was, I had always thought the GSA had only slabbed "whites." I'm only logged in for this reply (I'm doing the multi-tasking thing, right now), but I'd like to ask, do you all see these toned GSAs as prototypes, if you will, for what "mint bag toning" should look like? I'd think these would reasonably serve as pretty strong evidence of that. Back then, I hadn't heard of any dealer sulfur-dipping Morgans (quite to the contrary, if they dipped them, it was to achieve "white"), and, certainly the GSA didn't do that. Basically, there wasn't the money in that, back then (simulating mint bag toning), as there is, today. I'd just think these would be the "smoking gun," if you will, that would silence the critics, as regards what mint bag toning should look like. As such, I'd think these should be guarded like gold. In fact, given that quite a large number of these had been "cracked out," back then, and perhaps even dipped, back when the TPGs had arrived (early '80s), I'd think these toned ones, still in the slabs, could rightfully go at premiums, for just that. Now, what am I missing? >>
Any documented Mint sealed bag of Morgans shud serve as a poster child for what bag toned Morgans ought to look like. I can't believe folks are so mis/distrusting of those who have personal knowledge of Mint bags being opened. >>
Sadly, I can believe it, though I think it's unwarranted and a shame. And as I mentioned previously, if doubters of naturally and wildly toned Morgans found in bags aren't swayed by the many collectors and dealers who have personally opened them, nothing is going to convince them. If they choose not to believe, that's OK with me.
<< <i>Gee, there's just no getting rid of this guy (meaning me)!
OK, one more thing. I think I can accept, now, that toned Morgans had indeed been GSA-slabbed. What had always troubled me, before, was, I had always thought the GSA had only slabbed "whites." I'm only logged in for this reply (I'm doing the multi-tasking thing, right now), but I'd like to ask, do you all see these toned GSAs as prototypes, if you will, for what "mint bag toning" should look like? I'd think these would reasonably serve as pretty strong evidence of that. Back then, I hadn't heard of any dealer sulfur-dipping Morgans (quite to the contrary, if they dipped them, it was to achieve "white"), and, certainly the GSA didn't do that. Basically, there wasn't the money in that, back then (simulating mint bag toning), as there is, today. I'd just think these would be the "smoking gun," if you will, that would silence the critics, as regards what mint bag toning should look like. As such, I'd think these should be guarded like gold. In fact, given that quite a large number of these had been "cracked out," back then, and perhaps even dipped, back when the TPGs had arrived (early '80s), I'd think these toned ones, still in the slabs, could rightfully go at premiums, for just that. Now, what am I missing? >>
Any documented Mint sealed bag of Morgans shud serve as a poster child for what bag toned Morgans ought to look like. I can't believe folks are so mis/distrusting of those who have personal knowledge of Mint bags being opened. >>
Sadly, I can believe it, though I think it's unwarranted and a shame. And as I mentioned previously, if doubters of naturally and wildly tone Morgans found in bags aren't swayed by the many collectors and dealers who have personally opened them, nothing is going to convince them. If they choose not to believe, that's OK with me. >>
It would be ok to me as well but so many of them get up on the soap box to preach about the evils of toned coins that I do think it has an overall impact on the toned coin market. How much...I can't say? But if a new member jumped on these forums and decided they were interested in acquiring toned pieces and then they read a lot of what's posted it might disuade them from going that route. Fewer collectors of toned coins means lower prices but to what extent is anyone's guess. I do agree there is no use worring about it as there is no way to stop them from stating their opinions....I just have to hope that reduced prices help me when I am in my purchasing mode and don't kill me when I am in my selling mode
OK, the veracity of the bag openers can clearly be questioned when there is money/profit to be made by them. I wish we could dispense with the notion that mint sealed bags are impervious to chemical intrusion and toning which can cerainly be of a purpose and therefore AT.
In fact they are not impervious, and they can be manipulated so there are definately at least two levels of "corruption" that can occur.
It is good evidence of some of these bagged coins being toned that CC mint released dollars come toned such as Mr. Feld has shown examples of. I do not know if the CC govt holders can be opened and resealed?? Can they? I would imagine so, even if sonically sealed...
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>OK, the veracity of the bag openers can clearly be questioned when there is money/profit to be made by them. I wish we could dispense with the notion that mint sealed bags are impervious to chemical intrusion and toning which can cerainly be of a purpose and therefore AT.
In fact they are not impervious, and they can be manipulated so there are definately at least two levels of "corruption" that can occur.
It is good evidence of some of these bagged coins being toned that CC mint released dollars come toned such as Mr. Feld has shown examples of. I do not know if the CC govt holders can be opened and resealed?? Can they? I would imagine so, even if sonically sealed... >>
While im sure those holders could be opened but if you look at the certificates that come with the toned ones it clearly says that they are tarnished/toned. I also agree that sure someone could AT morgans in bags but also remember that there is ALOT more dipped coins than AT coins. Silver is a very reactive metal and copper even more so and to see a coin that is 100 years or older and is blast white makes you kinda wonder a bit. Personally ill take originality that is attractive over white any day. Till i see an example that someone shows me they AT and it looks identical to NT i will no longer collect coins.
<< <i>OK, the veracity of the bag openers can clearly be questioned when there is money/profit to be made by them. I wish we could dispense with the notion that mint sealed bags are impervious to chemical intrusion and toning which can cerainly be of a purpose and therefore AT.
In fact they are not impervious, and they can be manipulated so there are definately at least two levels of "corruption" that can occur.
It is good evidence of some of these bagged coins being toned that CC mint released dollars come toned such as Mr. Feld has shown examples of. I do not know if the CC govt holders can be opened and resealed?? Can they? I would imagine so, even if sonically sealed... >>
Not all of us who have opened bags or seen them opened stood to make money on the coins. So, hopefully you wont question our veracity.
And what about all of the non-dealer and even non-collector owners of bags who bought or had them handed down from many years ago? Many of them don't even know about the premiums involved for certain toned examples.
Also, while bags might not be impervious to "'chemical intrusion" that says nothing about whether that actually occurred or if so, in how many cases.
Based on what I have seen when the government holders have been opened, I do not believe that they could be opened and resealed without extremely obvious evidence of such.
It really sounds as if you would question the originality of wildly toned Morgan dollars, even those in sealed mint bags, unless the owner had been with the coins since the time they were produced and sealed, and had 24-7 video showing that nothing was done to the bags in the intervening years. Or something akin to that. But I suspect that even if that were offered as proof, you would question the video
In short, the burden of proof that you seem to require, is an impossible one to meet. You, in essence, are asking that a negative be disproved (prove that these coins weren't artificially toned in the bags). So there is no conceivable way that I can think of, to illustrate to your satisfaction, that such coins are naturally toned.
Without reading through 161 replies..................that coin is NT all day and twice on Sundays........dang it, now I'm curious what all of the back and forth has been about.....
<< <i>OK, the veracity of the bag openers can clearly be questioned when there is money/profit to be made by them. I wish we could dispense with the notion that mint sealed bags are impervious to chemical intrusion and toning which can cerainly be of a purpose and therefore AT.
In fact they are not impervious, and they can be manipulated so there are definately at least two levels of "corruption" that can occur.
It is good evidence of some of these bagged coins being toned that CC mint released dollars come toned such as Mr. Feld has shown examples of. I do not know if the CC govt holders can be opened and resealed?? Can they? I would imagine so, even if sonically sealed... >>
Well, you beat me to it, but well-said. At least, on the whole. Of course, I'd think it's rather elementary, a mint bag can be fooled with. At least, with a toned GSA, though, one would think that's pretty convincing, objective evidence of how these look when they tone in mint bags.
To me, if it's oxidized, a.k.a. tarnished, it's NT. That would of course rule out nail polish. But, that's about it. From there, it's simply a matter of whether I like it. I like this one, and I told the OP, as much, on about Page 2.
I've got another question for the group. Is the only NT mint bag NT? If not, explain that.
<< <i>OK, the veracity of the bag openers can clearly be questioned when there is money/profit to be made by them. I wish we could dispense with the notion that mint sealed bags are impervious to chemical intrusion and toning which can cerainly be of a purpose and therefore AT.
In fact they are not impervious, and they can be manipulated so there are definately at least two levels of "corruption" that can occur.
It is good evidence of some of these bagged coins being toned that CC mint released dollars come toned such as Mr. Feld has shown examples of. I do not know if the CC govt holders can be opened and resealed?? Can they? I would imagine so, even if sonically sealed... >>
Well, you beat me to it, but well-said. At least, on the whole. Of course, I'd think it's rather elementary, a mint bag can be fooled with. At least, with a toned GSA, though, one would think that's pretty convincing, objective evidence of how these look when they tone in mint bags.
To me, if it's oxidized, a.k.a. tarnished, it's NT. That would of course rule out nail polish. But, that's about it. From there, it's simply a matter of whether I like it. I like this one, and I told the OP, as much, on about Page 2.
I've got another question for the group. Is the only NT mint bag NT? If not, explain that. >>
Mint bag toning isnt the only form of NT. Other forms would include but are not limited to album, end roll, tidy house packaging (sp), and envelope. While other coins from different eras obtain there toning from these methods, some also tone from being stored in original mint sets, capital holders/other type holders, leather pouches, and the list goes on.
<< <i>Mint bag toning isnt the only form of NT. Other forms would include but are not limited to album, end roll, tidy house packaging (sp), and envelope. While other coins from different eras obtain there toning from these methods, some also tone from being stored in original mint sets, capital holders/other type holders, leather pouches, and the list goes on. >>
That's what I thought. Thanks for stepping up to the plate. You just opened up the floodgates, though, I hope you understand. For starters, let's see one of you step up and hit this one out of the park: define "AT."
I'll add this. I'm not trying to be "smart." The reason you need to do that, as if one should need to explain, is it's half the standards many of you have been utilizing to judge everyone else's toned coins by. In other words, as I already disclosed, I know how I define "NT." When I don't like a toned coin, though, I don't go throwing an arbitrary and capricious label on it, which, in effect, to the extent I can get a consensus on that label, renders that toned coin virtually "unmarketable." And, that's my only objection, quite honestly. I can't and am not purporting I can speak for any of the other critics, here.
<< <i>Mint bag toning isnt the only form of NT. Other forms would include but are not limited to album, end roll, tidy house packaging (sp), and envelope. While other coins from different eras obtain there toning from these methods, some also tone from being stored in original mint sets, capital holders/other type holders, leather pouches, and the list goes on. >>
That's what I thought. Thanks for stepping up to the plate. You just opened up the floodgates, though, I hope you understand. For starters, let's see one of you step up and hit this one out of the park: define "AT."
I'll add this. I'm not trying to be "smart." The reason you need to do that, as if one should need to explain, is it's half the standards many of you have been utilizing to judge everyone else's toned coins by. In other words, as I already disclosed, I know how I define "NT." When I don't like a toned coin, though, I don't go throwing an arbitrary and capricious label on it, which, in effect, to the extent I can get a consensus on that label, renders that toned coin virtually "unmarketable." And, that's my only objection, quite honestly. I can't and am not purporting I can speak for any of the other critics, here. >>
Artificial Toning refers to the process whereby patina is imparted to a coin in an accelerated reaction process using chemicals and / or heat. That is a good definition and is from ATS
<< <i>Artificial Toning refers to the process whereby patina is imparted to a coin in an accelerated reaction process using chemicals and / or heat. That is a good definition and is from ATS >>
I'll let it go at that. But only because it sounds very impressive. Reserving the right to revisit the question at some another time in some other thread, though.
<< <i>Artificial Toning refers to the process whereby patina is imparted to a coin in an accelerated reaction process using chemicals and / or heat. That is a good definition and is from ATS >>
I'll let it go at that. But only because it sounds very impressive. Reserving the right to revisit the question at some another time in some other thread, though. >>
LOL. Let me ask you a question, do you collect toned coins?
That is a good point, don' t have an answer. In answer to Mark, will refer back to one of my earlier responses: these wild toners do not seem to be well known from yet ars prior to the mid (early?) 80s, and in fact in places such as England with a vastly longer collecting history, we just do not see them; we also do not seem to be able to find them from prominent collections even from this country and earlier years - this is strange, and given that toners have been seen to bring multiples of untoned examples, it just makes me question many of them. The neon toners I think need to be proved, kind of "guilty until proved innocent" as I have much more doubt about them.
Well, perhaps there are no "winners" in this debate, but interesting to get a little repartee without people getting too bent out of shape.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>That is a good point, don' t have an answer. In answer to Mark, will refer back to one of my earlier responses: these wild toners do not seem to be well known from yet ars prior to the mid (early?) 80s, and in fact in places such as England with a vastly longer collecting history, we just do not see them; we also do not seem to be able to find them from prominent collections even from this country and earlier years - this is strange, and given that toners have been seen to bring multiples of untoned examples, it just makes me question many of them. The neon toners I think need to be proved, kind of "guilty until proved innocent" as I have much more doubt about them.
Well, perhaps there are no "winners" in this debate, but interesting to get a little repartee without people getting too bent out of shape. >>
Toners were not popular, thus there were few, if any, in significant collections. Many were dipped because blast white coins were preferred. I do not know when the toning craze caught on, but I doubt they brought the premiums years ago that they do now.
Not really sure that saying no toners about because the were cleaned is much more than assertion. Not the tradition in England (from which we seemed to copy much) and coins were handled, but not cleaned. The only toning seen to any degree is much more natural in appearance and appears from cabinet or felt exposure. Many of the 19th C. proof set silver coins have lovely toning from blue to purple and even light rainbow, NOT NEON.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>LOL. Let me ask you a question, do you collect toned coins? >>
No. Or, not the way the others do, here. That is to say, I don't chase after them, and never have. I have a number of toned coins in my collection, though, and I am able to appreciate them.
<< <i>Not really sure that saying no toners about because the were cleaned is much more than assertion. Not the tradition in England (from which we seemed to copy much) and coins were handled, but not cleaned. The only toning seen to any degree is much more natural in appearance and appears from cabinet or felt exposure. Many of the 19th C. proof set silver coins have lovely toning from blue to purple and even light rainbow, NOT NEON. >>
So, previously you questioned the veracity of those who have opened or seen bags opened, which contained wildly toned Dollars, because they stood to profit from them. Are you now also questioning the veracity of those who claim to have dipped toned dollars?
Please tell us precisely what it would take for you to be convinced that wildly toned Morgan Dollars found in mint bags aren't AT?
Mark, there is just too much profit incentive and lack of history prior to the last 20 or so years and that the evidence or proof still needs to be the other way around as far as AT.
Let me state it again: NO track record and now all of the sudden these wild toners show up with enormous profit possible to the seller....To much motivation for manipulation. Sorry, these will have to be proved and if I had access once again to spectroscopy I think that would help in terms of determining composition of this surface toning/manipulation.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>Mark, there is just too much profit incentive and lack of history prior to the last 20 or so years and that the evidence or proof still needs to be the other way around as far as AT.
Let me state it again: NO track record and now all of the sudden these wild toners show up with enormous profit possible to the seller....To much motivation for manipulation. Sorry, these will have to be proved and if I had access once again to spectroscopy I think that would help in terms of determining composition of this surface toning/manipulation. >>
Your continuing statement about no track record is simply false....so since your argument is based on several false statements....why are you owed proof of any kind? If you don't know what your buying (AT/NT), don't trust sellers who do, don't believe what other dealers who have been selling toned coins for 35 years have said on these forums hundreds of times about what they saw 20 to 40 years ago.....then the simplist thing for you to do is simply avoid toned coins. The most irresponsible thing you could do is come onto a coin forum, get on your soap box and start labling coins AT and sharing misinformation when you clearly do not have the knowledge to do so.
<< <i>Let me state it again: NO track record and now all of the sudden these wild toners show up with enormous profit possible to the seller....To much motivation for manipulation. >>
FWIW (and I quote): "The toners weren’t that easy to find back in the day when they were $8 or 10 a coin. If I would have saved every coin I saw, I bet it wouldn’t have been much more than 100 or 200 coins out of the 10 million. That’s why I’m very suspicious of some of today’s toners. And many of the toners of today just aren’t the same colors that were seen in the 1970s and 1980s. So unless you believe global warming is changing the color of Morgan dollars, there’s something fishy about some of today’s toners."
I think one thing that has not come up in all of this discussion...and frankly I have never seen in any discussion about bags of Morgan dollars is.......based on the time period HRH is discussing...clearly a lot of these coins were coming from bags in bank vaults directly or indirectly.....you know...concrete and steel. Once the general public started storing their purchased bags in their closets etc probably around the 1970's or 1980's....wouldn't it stand to reason that the environment would have changed? Certainly we know that wooden houses outgas, carpets outgas.....the environment could have been considerably different over the last 5, 10 even 20 years of these bags storage life so is it that unreasonable to assume that there could have been some change in the frequency with which toners would be found in these bags stored at a residence?
Plus we know of several dealers who have come out and stated on the forums that they know of dealers in the 60’s and 70’s that would dump out bags of Morgans in big vats if you will...full of dip to remove the toning since buyers wanted blast white. Are we to assume that every bag HRH opened or had access to was a mint seal bag or could some of these bags have been put together because of left over coins from a few bags etc so some dipping may have already occurred? See these theories are just as likely as the theories running around that the coins with wild colors existed in only very small quantities. Depending on storage conditions there could have been plenty of bags that contained hundreds or rainbow toned coins as was found in the continental bank hoard and subsequently found in the Battle creek hoard. Also we know that profit motives and the advent of the internet have allowed a lot of these colorful coins to come to light where as dealers in the 70’s weren’t dragging bags of toners to show because the public for the most part wanted white coins. I am not down playing HRH’s informative blog…simply stating that perception is reality but that doesn’t mean his perception can account for all of the hundreds of millions of Morgan’s stored all over the globe.
<< <i>Mark, there is just too much profit incentive and lack of history prior to the last 20 or so years and that the evidence or proof still needs to be the other way around as far as AT.
Let me state it again: NO track record and now all of the sudden these wild toners show up with enormous profit possible to the seller....To much motivation for manipulation. Sorry, these will have to be proved and if I had access once again to spectroscopy I think that would help in terms of determining composition of this surface toning/manipulation. >>
<< <i>Let me state it again: NO track record and now all of the sudden these wild toners show up with enormous profit possible to the seller....To much motivation for manipulation. >>
FWIW (and I quote): "The toners weren’t that easy to find back in the day when they were $8 or 10 a coin. If I would have saved every coin I saw, I bet it wouldn’t have been much more than 100 or 200 coins out of the 10 million. That’s why I’m very suspicious of some of today’s toners. And many of the toners of today just aren’t the same colors that were seen in the 1970s and 1980s. So unless you believe global warming is changing the color of Morgan dollars, there’s something fishy about some of today’s toners." >>
Actually, it mite be nice if HRH could post some pics of some of these where he thinks the toning is fishy.
<< <i>Not really sure that saying no toners about because the were cleaned is much more than assertion. Not the tradition in England (from which we seemed to copy much) and coins were handled, but not cleaned. The only toning seen to any degree is much more natural in appearance and appears from cabinet or felt exposure. Many of the 19th C. proof set silver coins have lovely toning from blue to purple and even light rainbow, NOT NEON. >>
I will be the first to say that im no expert on morgan dollars but i know toning. Neon toning is not uncommon but is a rare form of toning. Just look at the 48-58 US mint sets. You can find some toners in those sets that display pure neon color. You would think some of them could glow in the dark! Would you say those coins are AT? I have personally bought sets that have never been opened with the outer envelopes perfectly intact and post marked the hole nine. There are many on here that specialize in those sets as well that im sure bought true unopened sets and have seen some wild coins.
<< <i>Not really sure that saying no toners about because the were cleaned is much more than assertion. Not the tradition in England (from which we seemed to copy much) and coins were handled, but not cleaned. The only toning seen to any degree is much more natural in appearance and appears from cabinet or felt exposure. Many of the 19th C. proof set silver coins have lovely toning from blue to purple and even light rainbow, NOT NEON. >>
I will be the first to say that im no expert on morgan dollars but i know toning. Neon toning is not uncommon but is a rare form of toning. Just look at the 48-58 US mint sets. You can find some toners in those sets that display pure neon color. You would think some of them could glow in the dark! Would you say those coins are AT? I have personally bought sets that have never been opened with the outer envelopes perfectly intact and post marked the hole nine. There are many on here that specialize in those sets as well that im sure bought true unopened sets and have seen some wild coins. >>
Let me answer for him - "In fact they are not impervious, and they can be manipulated so there are definitely at least two levels of "corruption" that can occur." "The neon toners I think need to be proved, kind of "guilty until proved innocent". "There is just too much profit incentive and lack of history prior to the last 20 or so years and that the evidence or proof still needs to be the other way around as far as AT."
<< <i>Not really sure that saying no toners about because the were cleaned is much more than assertion. Not the tradition in England (from which we seemed to copy much) and coins were handled, but not cleaned. The only toning seen to any degree is much more natural in appearance and appears from cabinet or felt exposure. Many of the 19th C. proof set silver coins have lovely toning from blue to purple and even light rainbow, NOT NEON. >>
I will be the first to say that im no expert on morgan dollars but i know toning. Neon toning is not uncommon but is a rare form of toning. Just look at the 48-58 US mint sets. You can find some toners in those sets that display pure neon color. You would think some of them could glow in the dark! Would you say those coins are AT? I have personally bought sets that have never been opened with the outer envelopes perfectly intact and post marked the hole nine. There are many on here that specialize in those sets as well that im sure bought true unopened sets and have seen some wild coins. >>
Let me answer for him - "In fact they are not impervious, and they can be manipulated so there are definitely at least two levels of "corruption" that can occur." "The neon toners I think need to be proved, kind of "guilty until proved innocent". "There is just too much profit incentive and lack of history prior to the last 20 or so years and that the evidence or proof still needs to be the other way around as far as AT." >>
<< <i>Not really sure that saying no toners about because the were cleaned is much more than assertion. Not the tradition in England (from which we seemed to copy much) and coins were handled, but not cleaned. The only toning seen to any degree is much more natural in appearance and appears from cabinet or felt exposure. Many of the 19th C. proof set silver coins have lovely toning from blue to purple and even light rainbow, NOT NEON. >>
I will be the first to say that im no expert on morgan dollars but i know toning. Neon toning is not uncommon but is a rare form of toning. Just look at the 48-58 US mint sets. You can find some toners in those sets that display pure neon color. You would think some of them could glow in the dark! Would you say those coins are AT? I have personally bought sets that have never been opened with the outer envelopes perfectly intact and post marked the hole nine. There are many on here that specialize in those sets as well that im sure bought true unopened sets and have seen some wild coins. >>
Let me answer for him - "In fact they are not impervious, and they can be manipulated so there are definitely at least two levels of "corruption" that can occur." "The neon toners I think need to be proved, kind of "guilty until proved innocent". "There is just too much profit incentive and lack of history prior to the last 20 or so years and that the evidence or proof still needs to be the other way around as far as AT." >>
LMAO! >>
I wasn't really trying to be funny or making fun of him. But rather, I was trying to illustrate that he continues to say "guilty unless proven innocent", which is impossible to do.
<< <i>Not really sure that saying no toners about because the were cleaned is much more than assertion. Not the tradition in England (from which we seemed to copy much) and coins were handled, but not cleaned. The only toning seen to any degree is much more natural in appearance and appears from cabinet or felt exposure. Many of the 19th C. proof set silver coins have lovely toning from blue to purple and even light rainbow, NOT NEON. >>
I will be the first to say that im no expert on morgan dollars but i know toning. Neon toning is not uncommon but is a rare form of toning. Just look at the 48-58 US mint sets. You can find some toners in those sets that display pure neon color. You would think some of them could glow in the dark! Would you say those coins are AT? I have personally bought sets that have never been opened with the outer envelopes perfectly intact and post marked the hole nine. There are many on here that specialize in those sets as well that im sure bought true unopened sets and have seen some wild coins. >>
Let me answer for him - "In fact they are not impervious, and they can be manipulated so there are definitely at least two levels of "corruption" that can occur." "The neon toners I think need to be proved, kind of "guilty until proved innocent". "There is just too much profit incentive and lack of history prior to the last 20 or so years and that the evidence or proof still needs to be the other way around as far as AT." >>
LMAO! >>
I wasn't really trying to be funny or making fun of him. But rather, I was trying to illustrate that he continues to say "guilty unless proven innocent", which is impossible to do. >>
I found it funny because you responded imo exactly the way he would of word for word.
<< <i>Actually, it mite be nice if HRH could post some pics of some of these where he thinks the toning is fishy. >>
Actually, it wouldn't, given what he does for a living. IMHO. This is just too hot-button of an issue, and it's just charged with too much emotion. IMHO. Oh, I already said that.
Glad you have a sense of humor Mark, a bit of entertainment and reverses of plays on words is always fun. So people are not totally asleep on this board, even if a few malapropisms required...
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>Let me answer for him - "In fact they are not impervious, and they can be manipulated so there are definitely at least two levels of "corruption" that can occur." "The neon toners I think need to be proved, kind of "guilty until proved innocent". "There is just too much profit incentive and lack of history prior to the last 20 or so years and that the evidence or proof still needs to be the other way around as far as AT." >>
Taking these three sentences you reference from the top:
1ST -- I believe he was talking about mint bags, here? Well, then, sure, he has a point. Where there's money to be made, he has a point. Where there's 50X money to be made, he has 50X the point. IMHO.
2ND -- I'd think the neon ones should shift the burden of proof to the proponents of NT, as we just haven't seen these, years ago. I'm speaking of us, the collectors, who don't typically make our living in coins. Let's just see something better than testimony with an obvious financial bias, that should be satisfactory. Seen any of these neons in the GSA slabs? Got any I can see? That'd do it for me, bring me aboard. Not meaning to speak for anybody else, here, of course.
3RD -- Yes, again, I agree. The evidence is just too compelling. Maybe you can produce a neon one in an old TPG slab. Heck, even a second-tier TPG, who cares? Just keep it in the period, 1980s, early 1990s.
EDIT: Hey, wait a minute, do you mean you weren't quoting him! Mark, that's totally unfair and beyond the bounds of decency to sneak good-natured humor right into the middle of this! I'm surprised at you! You ought to be ashamed of yourself!
Comments
<< <i>As someone with some chemistry experience myself, I have to agree with 7Jaguars. I never did this kind of chemistry professionally, but even I can think of lots of ways to make AT coins through sealed bags or slabs that aren't air-tight. There are a million ways to oxidize or reduce metal surfaces, or apply thin layers of metals on coins. I can think of ways to do this with liquids, gases, through electrolysis, or even by putting coins in atmospheres of charged plasma where layers of metals a few microns thick can be drawn to the charged surface of a coin (maybe that's a way to fill in hairlines on proof gold coins to make them look better?).
There are thousands of labs in the USA with the equipment to do this sort of thing, because the equipment is used for other, common purposes like forensic/environmental/biochem analysis and sample preparation, materials synthesis, and electron microscopy work. Therefore, it seems to me that there are thousands of collectors with lab access who could make convincing AT coins with a little effort if they were so inclined. Moreover, they can probably make AT coins in a way that looks almost indistinguishable from NT, since the physical process is very similar.
I don't doubt that Mark and other experienced dealers have seen rainbow-toned coins come out of sealed bags, and the coins they've seen could very well have been NT. However, I don't think it's impossible that they were AT even if they came out of sealed bags 30 years ago. If there was any premium for toned coins when these sealed bags were opened, it seems like there would have been a financial incentive to find a way to tone the coins in the bag. That could have been done by gassing the bags with some sort of oxidizer, and it doesn't need to be sulfur, or elemental sulfur like one of the posters mentioned was hard to control. There are millions of oxidizing agents and thousands of compounds of sulfur that could do the trick, and each one of them would have different ways of reacting with the surface of a silver dollar. It shouldn't be that hard to identify at least one of those millions of chemicals that could accelerate natural toning processes on a silver dollar in a convincing way. Even if the financial incentive wasn't huge 20-30 years ago, if there was any difference, I think someone would have done it. Most chemicals are cheap. It might cost almost nothing and take little effort to tone a bag of uncirculated silver dollars. Plus, there's little downside since any fugly results could be dipped.
It also strikes me as odd that it doesn't seem like rainbow-toned coins are nearly as common in foreign coin series as US coin series. Perhaps this is because toned coins were dipped in the past, or because they were never stored like Morgan dollars, etc. Undoubtedly, collectors who have invested a lot of money in toned coins have some reasonable explanations, but that alone is a big obstacle for me to believe that most toned US coins in TPG holders are NT. If so, wouldn't there be a similar incidence of rainbow-toned British coins, for example?
Finally, in another thread, bushmaster, who I don't know personally, but who strikes me as an extremely well-informed and knowledgeable forum member, commented that he's amazed by the scope of the AT problem. It sounds like he thinks that there are an awful lot of expensive AT coins in PCGS and NGC holders, and that the graders either can't identify AT most of the time, or don't care (perhaps because AT isn't covered by either services' guarantee, even if a few AT coins here and there have been purchased in the past as a courtesy to instill confidence?). Bushmaster has pointed out in other threads some of the subtle clues that betray the work of coin doctors who make AT coins - things like flecks of certain colors in other colors, etc. - patterns and appearances that evidently never appear in nature. His explanations ring true to me, and so do his warnings about the inevitable collapse of that segment of the market once people realize how prevalent AT coins really are.
At the end of the day, after digesting this information, it seems risky for anyone to pay significant premiums for toned coins. If someone ever figures out how to identify AT with scientific certainty, a lot of good people might lose a fortune. If I was sitting on a valuable collection of toned coins, I'd want to get out of it now while it's still possible. >>
You present a good argument, and I'm sure that it is possible to effect toning through a slab, but I don't know to what extent a credible creation can be produced. Warnings of a collapse in the toned coin market remind me of a similar alarm raised years ago about counterfeit sports cards, it just never seemed to materialize.
As for the popularity of toners, I would not be collecting coins if all I had to choose from was white coins, it might be heaven for Rick-o but I find white coins boring. Like an antique collector who develops a taste for early painted surfaces, once an appreciation for color or patina in coins is acquired, it is unlikely that a "mint" look will ever again satisfy the collecting palate.
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<< <i>Edit: Never mind, GSAs were discussed.
I will add, however, for those that believe the toned GSAs were AT'd, please let us know what the Government is hiding in Area 51. Thanks. >>
That's some edit-job. You cut it just as I was getting ready to reply to it.
OK, this is my understanding. The ones that made it into the GSA slabs were "white." I've owned maybe 30 or 40 of these, but I've seen probably hundreds more, in-hand, and, of course, in photographs, and I've never seen a toned one. If that's the case, that these were slabbed "white," then toned afterward while they were in the slabs, how is that, by any stretch of the imagination, "mint bag toning?" I don't understand that.
Then, again, I've asked, several times, to be shown just one toned one still in the GSA slab, and it's like, yeah, they exist, but they're secreted away in Area 51. I mean, really, can anyone show me one? What do I need for that, a FOIA form? I know what the representations are, I'd just like to actually see one. >>
See here
And here
And here
Edited to add: That involved a search of about two minutes. I didn't care to spend additional time, but it's not at all difficult to find listings of "just one toned one still in the GSA slab", or, for that matter, quantities of them. And ditto for having seen them at coin shows over a long period of time. >>
You made your point. Thank you for that, Mark. As regards your edit, you're right, it hadn't occurred to me to search the threads in the forum.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Edit: Never mind, GSAs were discussed.
I will add, however, for those that believe the toned GSAs were AT'd, please let us know what the Government is hiding in Area 51. Thanks. >>
That's some edit-job. You cut it just as I was getting ready to reply to it.
OK, this is my understanding. The ones that made it into the GSA slabs were "white." I've owned maybe 30 or 40 of these, but I've seen probably hundreds more, in-hand, and, of course, in photographs, and I've never seen a toned one. If that's the case, that these were slabbed "white," then toned afterward while they were in the slabs, how is that, by any stretch of the imagination, "mint bag toning?" I don't understand that.
Then, again, I've asked, several times, to be shown just one toned one still in the GSA slab, and it's like, yeah, they exist, but they're secreted away in Area 51. I mean, really, can anyone show me one? What do I need for that, a FOIA form? I know what the representations are, I'd just like to actually see one. >>
Do a search for author GSAGUY in the BST forum and you will find several examples in the first few items. It is my understanding that the really butt ugly drecky ones were not sold by the GSA. >>
It looks like you and Mark Feld were writing at the same time and you came in second.
But nonetheless deserving of a thanks.
OK, one more thing. I think I can accept, now, that toned Morgans had indeed been GSA-slabbed. What had always troubled me, before, was, I had always thought the GSA had only slabbed "whites." I'm only logged in for this reply (I'm doing the multi-tasking thing, right now), but I'd like to ask, do you all see these toned GSAs as prototypes, if you will, for what "mint bag toning" should look like? I'd think these would reasonably serve as pretty strong evidence of that. Back then, I hadn't heard of any dealer sulfur-dipping Morgans (quite to the contrary, if they dipped them, it was to achieve "white"), and, certainly the GSA didn't do that. Basically, there wasn't the money in that, back then (simulating mint bag toning), as there is, today. I'd just think these would be the "smoking gun," if you will, that would silence the critics, as regards what mint bag toning should look like. As such, I'd think these should be guarded like gold. In fact, given that quite a large number of these had been "cracked out," back then, and perhaps even dipped, back when the TPGs had arrived (early '80s), I'd think these toned ones, still in the slabs, could rightfully go at premiums, for just that. Now, what am I missing?
<< <i>Gee, there's just no getting rid of this guy (meaning me)!
OK, one more thing. I think I can accept, now, that toned Morgans had indeed been GSA-slabbed. What had always troubled me, before, was, I had always thought the GSA had only slabbed "whites." I'm only logged in for this reply (I'm doing the multi-tasking thing, right now), but I'd like to ask, do you all see these toned GSAs as prototypes, if you will, for what "mint bag toning" should look like? I'd think these would reasonably serve as pretty strong evidence of that. Back then, I hadn't heard of any dealer sulfur-dipping Morgans (quite to the contrary, if they dipped them, it was to achieve "white"), and, certainly the GSA didn't do that. Basically, there wasn't the money in that, back then (simulating mint bag toning), as there is, today. I'd just think these would be the "smoking gun," if you will, that would silence the critics, as regards what mint bag toning should look like. As such, I'd think these should be guarded like gold. In fact, given that quite a large number of these had been "cracked out," back then, and perhaps even dipped, back when the TPGs had arrived (early '80s), I'd think these toned ones, still in the slabs, could rightfully go at premiums, for just that. Now, what am I missing? >>
Any documented Mint sealed bag of Morgans shud serve as a poster child for what bag toned Morgans ought to look like. I can't believe folks are so mis/distrusting of those who have personal knowledge of Mint bags being opened.
<< <i>
<< <i>Gee, there's just no getting rid of this guy (meaning me)!
OK, one more thing. I think I can accept, now, that toned Morgans had indeed been GSA-slabbed. What had always troubled me, before, was, I had always thought the GSA had only slabbed "whites." I'm only logged in for this reply (I'm doing the multi-tasking thing, right now), but I'd like to ask, do you all see these toned GSAs as prototypes, if you will, for what "mint bag toning" should look like? I'd think these would reasonably serve as pretty strong evidence of that. Back then, I hadn't heard of any dealer sulfur-dipping Morgans (quite to the contrary, if they dipped them, it was to achieve "white"), and, certainly the GSA didn't do that. Basically, there wasn't the money in that, back then (simulating mint bag toning), as there is, today. I'd just think these would be the "smoking gun," if you will, that would silence the critics, as regards what mint bag toning should look like. As such, I'd think these should be guarded like gold. In fact, given that quite a large number of these had been "cracked out," back then, and perhaps even dipped, back when the TPGs had arrived (early '80s), I'd think these toned ones, still in the slabs, could rightfully go at premiums, for just that. Now, what am I missing? >>
Any documented Mint sealed bag of Morgans shud serve as a poster child for what bag toned Morgans ought to look like. I can't believe folks are so mis/distrusting of those who have personal knowledge of Mint bags being opened. >>
Sadly, I can believe it, though I think it's unwarranted and a shame. And as I mentioned previously, if doubters of naturally and wildly toned Morgans found in bags aren't swayed by the many collectors and dealers who have personally opened them, nothing is going to convince them. If they choose not to believe, that's OK with me.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Gee, there's just no getting rid of this guy (meaning me)!
OK, one more thing. I think I can accept, now, that toned Morgans had indeed been GSA-slabbed. What had always troubled me, before, was, I had always thought the GSA had only slabbed "whites." I'm only logged in for this reply (I'm doing the multi-tasking thing, right now), but I'd like to ask, do you all see these toned GSAs as prototypes, if you will, for what "mint bag toning" should look like? I'd think these would reasonably serve as pretty strong evidence of that. Back then, I hadn't heard of any dealer sulfur-dipping Morgans (quite to the contrary, if they dipped them, it was to achieve "white"), and, certainly the GSA didn't do that. Basically, there wasn't the money in that, back then (simulating mint bag toning), as there is, today. I'd just think these would be the "smoking gun," if you will, that would silence the critics, as regards what mint bag toning should look like. As such, I'd think these should be guarded like gold. In fact, given that quite a large number of these had been "cracked out," back then, and perhaps even dipped, back when the TPGs had arrived (early '80s), I'd think these toned ones, still in the slabs, could rightfully go at premiums, for just that. Now, what am I missing? >>
Any documented Mint sealed bag of Morgans shud serve as a poster child for what bag toned Morgans ought to look like. I can't believe folks are so mis/distrusting of those who have personal knowledge of Mint bags being opened. >>
Sadly, I can believe it, though I think it's unwarranted and a shame. And as I mentioned previously, if doubters of naturally and wildly tone Morgans found in bags aren't swayed by the many collectors and dealers who have personally opened them, nothing is going to convince them. If they choose not to believe, that's OK with me. >>
It would be ok to me as well but so many of them get up on the soap box to preach about the evils of toned coins that I do think it has an overall impact on the toned coin market. How much...I can't say? But if a new member jumped on these forums and decided they were interested in acquiring toned pieces and then they read a lot of what's posted it might disuade them from going that route. Fewer collectors of toned coins means lower prices but to what extent is anyone's guess. I do agree there is no use worring about it as there is no way to stop them from stating their opinions....I just have to hope that reduced prices help me when I am in my purchasing mode and don't kill me when I am in my selling mode
In fact they are not impervious, and they can be manipulated so there are definately at least two levels of "corruption" that can occur.
It is good evidence of some of these bagged coins being toned that CC mint released dollars come toned such as Mr. Feld has shown examples of. I do not know if the CC govt holders can be opened and resealed?? Can they? I would imagine so, even if sonically sealed...
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>OK, the veracity of the bag openers can clearly be questioned when there is money/profit to be made by them. I wish we could dispense with the notion that mint sealed bags are impervious to chemical intrusion and toning which can cerainly be of a purpose and therefore AT.
In fact they are not impervious, and they can be manipulated so there are definately at least two levels of "corruption" that can occur.
It is good evidence of some of these bagged coins being toned that CC mint released dollars come toned such as Mr. Feld has shown examples of. I do not know if the CC govt holders can be opened and resealed?? Can they? I would imagine so, even if sonically sealed... >>
While im sure those holders could be opened but if you look at the certificates that come with the toned ones it clearly says that they are tarnished/toned. I also agree that sure someone could AT morgans in bags but also remember that there is ALOT more dipped coins than AT coins. Silver is a very reactive metal and copper even more so and to see a coin that is 100 years or older and is blast white makes you kinda wonder a bit. Personally ill take originality that is attractive over white any day. Till i see an example that someone shows me they AT and it looks identical to NT i will no longer collect coins.
<< <i>OK, the veracity of the bag openers can clearly be questioned when there is money/profit to be made by them. I wish we could dispense with the notion that mint sealed bags are impervious to chemical intrusion and toning which can cerainly be of a purpose and therefore AT.
In fact they are not impervious, and they can be manipulated so there are definately at least two levels of "corruption" that can occur.
It is good evidence of some of these bagged coins being toned that CC mint released dollars come toned such as Mr. Feld has shown examples of. I do not know if the CC govt holders can be opened and resealed?? Can they? I would imagine so, even if sonically sealed... >>
Not all of us who have opened bags or seen them opened stood to make money on the coins. So, hopefully you wont question our veracity.
And what about all of the non-dealer and even non-collector owners of bags who bought or had them handed down from many years ago? Many of them don't even know about the premiums involved for certain toned examples.
Also, while bags might not be impervious to "'chemical intrusion" that says nothing about whether that actually occurred or if so, in how many cases.
Based on what I have seen when the government holders have been opened, I do not believe that they could be opened and resealed without extremely obvious evidence of such.
It really sounds as if you would question the originality of wildly toned Morgan dollars, even those in sealed mint bags, unless the owner had been with the coins since the time they were produced and sealed, and had 24-7 video showing that nothing was done to the bags in the intervening years. Or something akin to that. But I suspect that even if that were offered as proof, you would question the video
In short, the burden of proof that you seem to require, is an impossible one to meet. You, in essence, are asking that a negative be disproved (prove that these coins weren't artificially toned in the bags). So there is no conceivable way that I can think of, to illustrate to your satisfaction, that such coins are naturally toned.
<< <i>OK, the veracity of the bag openers can clearly be questioned when there is money/profit to be made by them. I wish we could dispense with the notion that mint sealed bags are impervious to chemical intrusion and toning which can cerainly be of a purpose and therefore AT.
In fact they are not impervious, and they can be manipulated so there are definately at least two levels of "corruption" that can occur.
It is good evidence of some of these bagged coins being toned that CC mint released dollars come toned such as Mr. Feld has shown examples of. I do not know if the CC govt holders can be opened and resealed?? Can they? I would imagine so, even if sonically sealed... >>
Well, you beat me to it, but well-said. At least, on the whole. Of course, I'd think it's rather elementary, a mint bag can be fooled with. At least, with a toned GSA, though, one would think that's pretty convincing, objective evidence of how these look when they tone in mint bags.
To me, if it's oxidized, a.k.a. tarnished, it's NT. That would of course rule out nail polish. But, that's about it. From there, it's simply a matter of whether I like it. I like this one, and I told the OP, as much, on about Page 2.
I've got another question for the group. Is the only NT mint bag NT? If not, explain that.
<< <i>
<< <i>OK, the veracity of the bag openers can clearly be questioned when there is money/profit to be made by them. I wish we could dispense with the notion that mint sealed bags are impervious to chemical intrusion and toning which can cerainly be of a purpose and therefore AT.
In fact they are not impervious, and they can be manipulated so there are definately at least two levels of "corruption" that can occur.
It is good evidence of some of these bagged coins being toned that CC mint released dollars come toned such as Mr. Feld has shown examples of. I do not know if the CC govt holders can be opened and resealed?? Can they? I would imagine so, even if sonically sealed... >>
Well, you beat me to it, but well-said. At least, on the whole. Of course, I'd think it's rather elementary, a mint bag can be fooled with. At least, with a toned GSA, though, one would think that's pretty convincing, objective evidence of how these look when they tone in mint bags.
To me, if it's oxidized, a.k.a. tarnished, it's NT. That would of course rule out nail polish. But, that's about it. From there, it's simply a matter of whether I like it. I like this one, and I told the OP, as much, on about Page 2.
I've got another question for the group. Is the only NT mint bag NT? If not, explain that. >>
Mint bag toning isnt the only form of NT. Other forms would include but are not limited to album, end roll, tidy house packaging (sp), and envelope. While other coins from different eras obtain there toning from these methods, some also tone from being stored in original mint sets, capital holders/other type holders, leather pouches, and the list goes on.
<< <i>Mint bag toning isnt the only form of NT. Other forms would include but are not limited to album, end roll, tidy house packaging (sp), and envelope. While other coins from different eras obtain there toning from these methods, some also tone from being stored in original mint sets, capital holders/other type holders, leather pouches, and the list goes on. >>
That's what I thought. Thanks for stepping up to the plate. You just opened up the floodgates, though, I hope you understand. For starters, let's see one of you step up and hit this one out of the park: define "AT."
I'll add this. I'm not trying to be "smart." The reason you need to do that, as if one should need to explain, is it's half the standards many of you have been utilizing to judge everyone else's toned coins by. In other words, as I already disclosed, I know how I define "NT." When I don't like a toned coin, though, I don't go throwing an arbitrary and capricious label on it, which, in effect, to the extent I can get a consensus on that label, renders that toned coin virtually "unmarketable." And, that's my only objection, quite honestly. I can't and am not purporting I can speak for any of the other critics, here.
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<< <i>Mint bag toning isnt the only form of NT. Other forms would include but are not limited to album, end roll, tidy house packaging (sp), and envelope. While other coins from different eras obtain there toning from these methods, some also tone from being stored in original mint sets, capital holders/other type holders, leather pouches, and the list goes on. >>
That's what I thought. Thanks for stepping up to the plate. You just opened up the floodgates, though, I hope you understand. For starters, let's see one of you step up and hit this one out of the park: define "AT."
I'll add this. I'm not trying to be "smart." The reason you need to do that, as if one should need to explain, is it's half the standards many of you have been utilizing to judge everyone else's toned coins by. In other words, as I already disclosed, I know how I define "NT." When I don't like a toned coin, though, I don't go throwing an arbitrary and capricious label on it, which, in effect, to the extent I can get a consensus on that label, renders that toned coin virtually "unmarketable." And, that's my only objection, quite honestly. I can't and am not purporting I can speak for any of the other critics, here. >>
Artificial Toning refers to the process whereby patina is imparted to a coin in an accelerated reaction process using chemicals and / or heat. That is a good definition and is from ATS
<< <i>Artificial Toning refers to the process whereby patina is imparted to a coin in an accelerated reaction process using chemicals and / or heat. That is a good definition and is from ATS
I'll let it go at that. But only because it sounds very impressive. Reserving the right to revisit the question at some another time in some other thread, though.
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<< <i>Artificial Toning refers to the process whereby patina is imparted to a coin in an accelerated reaction process using chemicals and / or heat. That is a good definition and is from ATS
I'll let it go at that. But only because it sounds very impressive. Reserving the right to revisit the question at some another time in some other thread, though.
LOL. Let me ask you a question, do you collect toned coins?
Actually I find comfort in the fact that reverse rather than obverse is toned.
If AT cresent toning of this quality would likely bring more $$$ on obverse and would likely cover whole field.
If you are a forger why sell a Rembrant sketch when you could sell the whole painting?
Well, perhaps there are no "winners" in this debate, but interesting to get a little repartee without people getting too bent out of shape.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>That is a good point, don' t have an answer. In answer to Mark, will refer back to one of my earlier responses: these wild toners do not seem to be well known from yet ars prior to the mid (early?) 80s, and in fact in places such as England with a vastly longer collecting history, we just do not see them; we also do not seem to be able to find them from prominent collections even from this country and earlier years - this is strange, and given that toners have been seen to bring multiples of untoned examples, it just makes me question many of them. The neon toners I think need to be proved, kind of "guilty until proved innocent" as I have much more doubt about them.
Well, perhaps there are no "winners" in this debate, but interesting to get a little repartee without people getting too bent out of shape. >>
Toners were not popular, thus there were few, if any, in significant collections. Many were dipped because blast white coins were preferred. I do not know when the toning craze caught on, but I doubt they brought the premiums years ago that they do now.
<< <i>IMO NT though picture, not coin may be a little juiced.
Actually I find comfort in the fact that reverse rather than obverse is toned.
If AT cresent toning of this quality would likely bring more $$$ on obverse and would likely cover whole field.
If you are a forger why sell a Rembrant sketch when you could sell the whole painting? >>
The TT pic is pretty darn close to the coin in hand as is this one.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>LOL. Let me ask you a question, do you collect toned coins? >>
No. Or, not the way the others do, here. That is to say, I don't chase after them, and never have. I have a number of toned coins in my collection, though, and I am able to appreciate them.
PS: So I can't be all that bad.
<< <i>Not really sure that saying no toners about because the were cleaned is much more than assertion. Not the tradition in England (from which we seemed to copy much) and coins were handled, but not cleaned. The only toning seen to any degree is much more natural in appearance and appears from cabinet or felt exposure. Many of the 19th C. proof set silver coins have lovely toning from blue to purple and even light rainbow, NOT NEON. >>
So, previously you questioned the veracity of those who have opened or seen bags opened, which contained wildly toned Dollars, because they stood to profit from them. Are you now also questioning the veracity of those who claim to have dipped toned dollars?
Please tell us precisely what it would take for you to be convinced that wildly toned Morgan Dollars found in mint bags aren't AT?
Let me state it again: NO track record and now all of the sudden these wild toners show up with enormous profit possible to the seller....To much motivation for manipulation.
Sorry, these will have to be proved and if I had access once again to spectroscopy I think that would help in terms of determining composition of this surface toning/manipulation.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>Mark, there is just too much profit incentive and lack of history prior to the last 20 or so years and that the evidence or proof still needs to be the other way around as far as AT.
Let me state it again: NO track record and now all of the sudden these wild toners show up with enormous profit possible to the seller....To much motivation for manipulation.
Sorry, these will have to be proved and if I had access once again to spectroscopy I think that would help in terms of determining composition of this surface toning/manipulation. >>
Your continuing statement about no track record is simply false....so since your argument is based on several false statements....why are you owed proof of any kind? If you don't know what your buying (AT/NT), don't trust sellers who do, don't believe what other dealers who have been selling toned coins for 35 years have said on these forums hundreds of times about what they saw 20 to 40 years ago.....then the simplist thing for you to do is simply avoid toned coins. The most irresponsible thing you could do is come onto a coin forum, get on your soap box and start labling coins AT and sharing misinformation when you clearly do not have the knowledge to do so.
<< <i>Let me state it again: NO track record and now all of the sudden these wild toners show up with enormous profit possible to the seller....To much motivation for manipulation. >>
FWIW (and I quote): "The toners weren’t that easy to find back in the day when they were $8 or 10 a coin. If I would have saved every coin I saw, I bet it wouldn’t have been much more than 100 or 200 coins out of the 10 million. That’s why I’m very suspicious of some of today’s toners. And many of the toners of today just aren’t the same colors that were seen in the 1970s and 1980s. So unless you believe global warming is changing the color of Morgan dollars, there’s something fishy about some of today’s toners."
Plus we know of several dealers who have come out and stated on the forums that they know of dealers in the 60’s and 70’s that would dump out bags of Morgans in big vats if you will...full of dip to remove the toning since buyers wanted blast white. Are we to assume that every bag HRH opened or had access to was a mint seal bag or could some of these bags have been put together because of left over coins from a few bags etc so some dipping may have already occurred? See these theories are just as likely as the theories running around that the coins with wild colors existed in only very small quantities. Depending on storage conditions there could have been plenty of bags that contained hundreds or rainbow toned coins as was found in the continental bank hoard and subsequently found in the Battle creek hoard. Also we know that profit motives and the advent of the internet have allowed a lot of these colorful coins to come to light where as dealers in the 70’s weren’t dragging bags of toners to show because the public for the most part wanted white coins. I am not down playing HRH’s informative blog…simply stating that perception is reality but that doesn’t mean his perception can account for all of the hundreds of millions of Morgan’s stored all over the globe.
<< <i>Mark, there is just too much profit incentive and lack of history prior to the last 20 or so years and that the evidence or proof still needs to be the other way around as far as AT.
Let me state it again: NO track record and now all of the sudden these wild toners show up with enormous profit possible to the seller....To much motivation for manipulation.
Sorry, these will have to be proved and if I had access once again to spectroscopy I think that would help in terms of determining composition of this surface toning/manipulation. >>
What specific kind of spectroscopy would that be?
<< <i>
<< <i>Let me state it again: NO track record and now all of the sudden these wild toners show up with enormous profit possible to the seller....To much motivation for manipulation. >>
FWIW (and I quote): "The toners weren’t that easy to find back in the day when they were $8 or 10 a coin. If I would have saved every coin I saw, I bet it wouldn’t have been much more than 100 or 200 coins out of the 10 million. That’s why I’m very suspicious of some of today’s toners. And many of the toners of today just aren’t the same colors that were seen in the 1970s and 1980s. So unless you believe global warming is changing the color of Morgan dollars, there’s something fishy about some of today’s toners." >>
Actually, it mite be nice if HRH could post some pics of some of these where he thinks the toning is fishy.
<< <i>Not really sure that saying no toners about because the were cleaned is much more than assertion. Not the tradition in England (from which we seemed to copy much) and coins were handled, but not cleaned. The only toning seen to any degree is much more natural in appearance and appears from cabinet or felt exposure. Many of the 19th C. proof set silver coins have lovely toning from blue to purple and even light rainbow, NOT NEON. >>
I will be the first to say that im no expert on morgan dollars but i know toning. Neon toning is not uncommon but is a rare form of toning. Just look at the 48-58 US mint sets. You can find some toners in those sets that display pure neon color. You would think some of them could glow in the dark! Would you say those coins are AT? I have personally bought sets that have never been opened with the outer envelopes perfectly intact and post marked the hole nine. There are many on here that specialize in those sets as well that im sure bought true unopened sets and have seen some wild coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>Not really sure that saying no toners about because the were cleaned is much more than assertion. Not the tradition in England (from which we seemed to copy much) and coins were handled, but not cleaned. The only toning seen to any degree is much more natural in appearance and appears from cabinet or felt exposure. Many of the 19th C. proof set silver coins have lovely toning from blue to purple and even light rainbow, NOT NEON. >>
I will be the first to say that im no expert on morgan dollars but i know toning. Neon toning is not uncommon but is a rare form of toning. Just look at the 48-58 US mint sets. You can find some toners in those sets that display pure neon color. You would think some of them could glow in the dark! Would you say those coins are AT? I have personally bought sets that have never been opened with the outer envelopes perfectly intact and post marked the hole nine. There are many on here that specialize in those sets as well that im sure bought true unopened sets and have seen some wild coins. >>
Let me answer for him
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<< <i>
<< <i>Not really sure that saying no toners about because the were cleaned is much more than assertion. Not the tradition in England (from which we seemed to copy much) and coins were handled, but not cleaned. The only toning seen to any degree is much more natural in appearance and appears from cabinet or felt exposure. Many of the 19th C. proof set silver coins have lovely toning from blue to purple and even light rainbow, NOT NEON. >>
I will be the first to say that im no expert on morgan dollars but i know toning. Neon toning is not uncommon but is a rare form of toning. Just look at the 48-58 US mint sets. You can find some toners in those sets that display pure neon color. You would think some of them could glow in the dark! Would you say those coins are AT? I have personally bought sets that have never been opened with the outer envelopes perfectly intact and post marked the hole nine. There are many on here that specialize in those sets as well that im sure bought true unopened sets and have seen some wild coins. >>
Let me answer for him
LMAO!
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<< <i>
<< <i>Not really sure that saying no toners about because the were cleaned is much more than assertion. Not the tradition in England (from which we seemed to copy much) and coins were handled, but not cleaned. The only toning seen to any degree is much more natural in appearance and appears from cabinet or felt exposure. Many of the 19th C. proof set silver coins have lovely toning from blue to purple and even light rainbow, NOT NEON. >>
I will be the first to say that im no expert on morgan dollars but i know toning. Neon toning is not uncommon but is a rare form of toning. Just look at the 48-58 US mint sets. You can find some toners in those sets that display pure neon color. You would think some of them could glow in the dark! Would you say those coins are AT? I have personally bought sets that have never been opened with the outer envelopes perfectly intact and post marked the hole nine. There are many on here that specialize in those sets as well that im sure bought true unopened sets and have seen some wild coins. >>
Let me answer for him
LMAO! >>
I wasn't really trying to be funny or making fun of him. But rather, I was trying to illustrate that he continues to say "guilty unless proven innocent", which is impossible to do.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Not really sure that saying no toners about because the were cleaned is much more than assertion. Not the tradition in England (from which we seemed to copy much) and coins were handled, but not cleaned. The only toning seen to any degree is much more natural in appearance and appears from cabinet or felt exposure. Many of the 19th C. proof set silver coins have lovely toning from blue to purple and even light rainbow, NOT NEON. >>
I will be the first to say that im no expert on morgan dollars but i know toning. Neon toning is not uncommon but is a rare form of toning. Just look at the 48-58 US mint sets. You can find some toners in those sets that display pure neon color. You would think some of them could glow in the dark! Would you say those coins are AT? I have personally bought sets that have never been opened with the outer envelopes perfectly intact and post marked the hole nine. There are many on here that specialize in those sets as well that im sure bought true unopened sets and have seen some wild coins. >>
Let me answer for him
LMAO! >>
I wasn't really trying to be funny or making fun of him. But rather, I was trying to illustrate that he continues to say "guilty unless proven innocent", which is impossible to do. >>
I found it funny because you responded imo exactly the way he would of word for word.
<< <i>Actually, it mite be nice if HRH could post some pics of some of these where he thinks the toning is fishy. >>
Actually, it wouldn't, given what he does for a living. IMHO. This is just too hot-button of an issue, and it's just charged with too much emotion. IMHO. Oh, I already said that.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>Let me answer for him
Taking these three sentences you reference from the top:
1ST -- I believe he was talking about mint bags, here? Well, then, sure, he has a point. Where there's money to be made, he has a point. Where there's 50X money to be made, he has 50X the point. IMHO.
2ND -- I'd think the neon ones should shift the burden of proof to the proponents of NT, as we just haven't seen these, years ago. I'm speaking of us, the collectors, who don't typically make our living in coins. Let's just see something better than testimony with an obvious financial bias, that should be satisfactory. Seen any of these neons in the GSA slabs? Got any I can see? That'd do it for me, bring me aboard. Not meaning to speak for anybody else, here, of course.
3RD -- Yes, again, I agree. The evidence is just too compelling. Maybe you can produce a neon one in an old TPG slab. Heck, even a second-tier TPG, who cares? Just keep it in the period, 1980s, early 1990s.
EDIT: Hey, wait a minute, do you mean you weren't quoting him! Mark, that's totally unfair and beyond the bounds of decency to sneak good-natured humor right into the middle of this! I'm surprised at you! You ought to be ashamed of yourself!