<< <i>Kryptonite - thanks for the picture but I see toning not neon electric toning, maybe just the generation of picture reaching me not good? >>
I'm not Kryptonite/Shane and I'm on a plane about to depart, so don't have time to get more detailed reply. But I found the information below with a quick search - pleased note the portion I highlighted in bold. My recollection is that there were many wildly toned examples in the hoard:
"The Continental-Illinois National Bank Hoard
The grand-daddy of all coin hoards, and the leading example of a successful hoard dispersal in all senses of the term, must be the Continental-Illinois National Bank hoard of silver dollars in the early 1980s.
Banks are required by federal law to keep a certain percentage of their “deposits” in cash at all times as one of their federal reserve requirements. For more than a century, it seems, the Continental-Illinois National Bank in Chicago kept a portion of its reserves in original mint bags of silver dollars.
Because of the bank’s financial difficulties in the early 1980s, the Board of Directors of the bank decided to sell the bags for the significant profit that they were worth over their face value, to help soften the financial crisis that so many banks were facing at the time.
Beginning in 1982 and lasting for several years, as many as 1,000 original bags of brilliant uncirculated Morgan silver dollars, and another 500 bags of circulated silver dollar, came out of this hoard. That means more than 1.5 million coins! The majority were common dates: 1879-S, 1880-S, 1881-S, 1882-S, 1883-O, 1884-O, 1885-O, 1886-P and 1887-P. There were a dozen or so bags each of 1883-P and 1884-P and a few more single bags of some other dates. Beyond the sheer numbers, the condition of the coins was remarkable. Many from this hoard were absolutely breathtaking gems, exhibiting incredible cartwheel luster, magnificent rainbow toning, and outstanding proof-like strikes. .
Marketing of the Continental-Illinois National Bank hoard was handled in model fashion. From the very start, the two or three major retailers who were charged with organizing the dispersal understood that the greatest benefit to all would be obtained by utilizing the abilities of the entire industry, wholesalers and retailers alike. By establishing an extremely wide distribution channel, they could rely upon the grass-roots marketing efforts of mail order and storefront dealers, and millions of customers would be reached directly. The combination of product, story, and price was a perfect fit for them. Extraordinary demand was created, and because so much of the industry was involved, the after-market support was firmly in place and demand for the hoard coins continued to build.
As a result of this successful dispersal strategy, the entire silver dollar market grew for the next five years. From 1982 to 1985, for example, Morgan Silver Dollars in MS 65 increased in average value by 450%! Collectors and investors alike were happy, and the hobby enjoyed a wonderful resurgence." >>
Cool pic there "Kyrpto" and thanks for sharing that quick search "coinguy1"... Here`s a link and a few pics of one of mine that was out of the Continental Bank Hoard that me and my family enjoy...
Coinguy, thanks for the citation, but would like to know when the bags were opened and the storage conditions as these would be crucial - the so-called custody chain. This worries me tremendously in terms of accepting evidence & also for the reasons outlined above must question the veracity of somebody reporting on such bags that is also selling them - they may be completely accurate in their reporting but certainly there is motive for the quality and content of the reports they generate.
So with all due respect, I would look for some other examples but please keep them coming and thanks for your troubles.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
There are a lot of really nicely toned Binion’s as well….. and Ted wasn't a collector...simply a hoarder. When the bags of Morgan’s he had stashed in his basement came to light and the bags were searched there were many colorful treasures found and you can be sure that Ted didn't care whether the coin was toned, white, stripped, poka-dot .....a silver dollar was a silver dollar. Now certainly anyone could suggest that we don't know the chain of custody of his bags any more that the CBH or Battle Creeks but that just makes it ever more clear that there is no way to truly settle the argument as far at bag toned Morgan’s being AT or NT. Collectors that love toned material like myself study the history of storage methods and storage devices along with the chemical reactions coins undergo due to their environments and we feel very comfortable with our purchases. Folks who don't like toned material are going to use that same knowledge or chemical reactions, storage conditions and determine that anything with colors other then light pastels is 100% AT. In the end no matter how many experts, experiments, historical accounts, books, coin sniffers are brought into the equation....nobody's opinion is going to change. What we really need to focus on is tolerance......if I don't like untoned coins than it should be very easy for me to stay out of threads about white coins and I should be able to refrain from making snide comments about dipping and the removal of original surfaces. In the same vain if you don't like toned material and think everything is AT, you should be able to avoid threads about toned coins and should be able to refrain from labeling everyone else coins as AT or doctored? Seems like a simple solution to me but there are collectors on both sides of the fence who have more opinions then common sense
<< <i>Each of us is free to agree or disagree with what others post. And if I feel like saying I am glad to see an apology and/or that I agree a particular post is thought provoking, I will do so.
And, whether intentionally or otherwise, you have insulted more than one person in this thread, as well as others recently. Surely, you are observant enough to be aware of that. I've attempted to answer many of your questions in the past, despite the fact that I felt you had a tendency to be rude. I have finally learned my lesson. >>
That’s a very piercing portrait. While I don't mean to belabor this, I do feel it’s incumbent upon me to inquire, are you in the habit of scrutinizing the conduct of all the members, here, similarly, or is that high honor rather exclusively reserved for the members who have from time to time had the utter ingratitude to have expressed dissenting opinions from your own? I mean, if I might, likewise, offer a portrait, you do seem to have a certain pathological preoccupation with judging people, Mark, as well as an uncanny intolerance for the free and robust expression of unpopular ideas.
Tell you what’s going to happen, you and guys like PCcoins keep this intimidation up, you’re going to lose people. And, in time, you’re going to end up with a captive audience, here. But, then, perhaps that’s what you’d prefer. At any rate, I wouldn’t put that past you.
Get off my back. Do you think you can manage that? I’d sincerely appreciate it.
The two coins posted at the head of the message definitely NT. Some of the other examples would be called AT if you follow what is being taught at the ANA summer seminar.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>Each of us is free to agree or disagree with what others post. And if I feel like saying I am glad to see an apology and/or that I agree a particular post is thought provoking, I will do so.
And, whether intentionally or otherwise, you have insulted more than one person in this thread, as well as others recently. Surely, you are observant enough to be aware of that. I've attempted to answer many of your questions in the past, despite the fact that I felt you had a tendency to be rude. I have finally learned my lesson. >>
That’s a very piercing portrait. While I don't mean to belabor this, I do feel it’s incumbent upon me to inquire, are you in the habit of scrutinizing the conduct of all the members, here, similarly, or is that high honor rather exclusively reserved for the members who have from time to time had the utter ingratitude to have expressed dissenting opinions from your own? I mean, if I might, likewise, offer a portrait, you do seem to have a certain pathological preoccupation with judging people, Mark, as well as an uncanny intolerance for the free and robust expression of unpopular ideas.
Tell you what’s going to happen, you and guys like PCcoins keep this intimidation up, you’re going to lose people. And, in time, you’re going to end up with a captive audience, here. But, then, perhaps that’s what you’d prefer. At any rate, I wouldn’t put that past you.
Get off my back. Do you think you can manage that? I’d sincerely appreciate it. >>
Please don't give yourself too much undeserved credit. I have plenty of disagreements with other people about all sorts of things which are discussed here. And many of those posters are friends of mine. I welcome differing opinions and good debates. It's just that I prefer polite ones and often speak up when others are rude.
<< <i>Coinguy, thanks for the citation, but would like to know when the bags were opened and the storage conditions as these would be crucial - the so-called custody chain. This worries me tremendously in terms of accepting evidence & also for the reasons outlined above must question the veracity of somebody reporting on such bags that is also selling them - they may be completely accurate in their reporting but certainly there is motive for the quality and content of the reports they generate.
So with all due respect, I would look for some other examples but please keep them coming and thanks for your troubles. >>
7Jaguars, I don't claim to know the "so called custody chain". All I can tell you is that I have seen such bags opened, know many other long time dealers who have opened them and trust that the bags had not been messed with. And please keep in mind, that way back when, there wouldn't have been the same incentive to produce such coins, yet they still surfaced.
I ask you in all sincerity, specifically, what scenario (over a period of more than a century of storage) would satisfy you in that regard? In other words, under what circumstances would you agree that wildly toned Morgan Dollars from bags were naturally toned? Thanks.
Kurtdog, do you like toned coins? do you collect toned coins? The topic of this thread was about toned coins and now it seems to be about personnel vendettas
<< <i>I discovered how to remove the milky spots without ANY damage to the coin. Even from MS/PR70 coins with zero damage and zero change to the original luster. >>
It'll also remove NT toning from Morgans. It won't remove AT toning which is exactly opposite of what I'd want. If you want to test if the toning is legit you can but then your toning is gone. I mean, WTH?
You dippers would love on get your mitts on this, but I simply cannot allow you to destroy any more toned coins in search of some shiny/BORING coin. Stick to your MS70 dip. This secret will go with me to the grave or for several million dollars. Which ever comes first.
I thought you were gonna sell this one to me for cheap. WTH?
Give up your evil ways and let me take the burden of all those nasty marred up Morgans off your hands. I ONLY offer to do this to help YOU. Heck, why in Pete's name would I want a bunch of crayon coins for?
AT/NT discussions tend to sound a lot like folks debating religion. They quickly get out of hand. I doubt anyone will convert the other other to their pew......I'll stick with the Sunnywood's and Tom B's of the collecting world. Savvy experienced collectors with science/chemistry backgrounds that feel comfortable reaching with their wallets for NT coins. I don't collect toned Morgans but I can see why people do. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Coin guy, my only thought (well maybe a couple others going on as well) is that these were not, as far as I can ascertain, clearly known from 20, 30 or more years ago - even though many chemicals were available then.
I too have been in coins for over 40 years and cerainly am not bragging about education but will just say that I have a lot of science background that def. applies to metals, as well as quite a bit more. I do not try to pull rank, but have been trained as a scientist and so come from that background.
So proof is a difficult topic, believing 10% what is heard and 50% what is seen, even by a trained observer....Well, at work and will revisit this shortly.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>Coin guy, my only thought (well maybe a couple others going on as well) is that these were not, as far as I can ascertain, clearly known from 20, 30 or more years ago - even though many chemicals were available then.
I too have been in coins for over 40 years and cerainly am not bragging about education but will just say that I have a lot of science background that def. applies to metals, as well as quite a bit more. I do not try to pull rank, but have been trained as a scientist and so come from that background.
So proof is a difficult topic, believing 10% what is heard and 50% what is seen, even by a trained observer....Well, at work and will revisit this shortly. >>
Thanks for your reply. I and many other dealers (including David Hall) and collectors bought and sold such coins more than 20 years ago. Keep in mind, that in almost every instance, the coins would not have received nearly as much widespread publicity in pre-internet times.
<< <i>Thanks for your reply. I and many other dealers (including David Hall) and collectors bought and sold such coins more than 20 years ago. Keep in mind, that in almost every instance, the coins would not have received nearly as much widespread publicity in pre-internet times. >>
Having collected toned coins since 1974, I know for a fact that they were available. The only problem was getting to them before the dealers dipped them, as everyone wanted white back then. Since few people wanted them, there was not much publicity about them. Unfortunately, many beautiful specimens were destroyed by dipping.
Larry L.
Autism Awareness: There is no limit to the good you can do, if you don't care who gets the credit.
As someone with some chemistry experience myself, I have to agree with 7Jaguars. I never did this kind of chemistry professionally, but even I can think of lots of ways to make AT coins through sealed bags or slabs that aren't air-tight. There are a million ways to oxidize or reduce metal surfaces, or apply thin layers of metals on coins. I can think of ways to do this with liquids, gases, through electrolysis, or even by putting coins in atmospheres of charged plasma where layers of metals a few microns thick can be drawn to the charged surface of a coin (maybe that's a way to fill in hairlines on proof gold coins to make them look better?).
There are thousands of labs in the USA with the equipment to do this sort of thing, because the equipment is used for other, common purposes like forensic/environmental/biochem analysis and sample preparation, materials synthesis, and electron microscopy work. Therefore, it seems to me that there are thousands of collectors with lab access who could make convincing AT coins with a little effort if they were so inclined. Moreover, they can probably make AT coins in a way that looks almost indistinguishable from NT, since the physical process is very similar.
I don't doubt that Mark and other experienced dealers have seen rainbow-toned coins come out of sealed bags, and the coins they've seen could very well have been NT. However, I don't think it's impossible that they were AT even if they came out of sealed bags 30 years ago. If there was any premium for toned coins when these sealed bags were opened, it seems like there would have been a financial incentive to find a way to tone the coins in the bag. That could have been done by gassing the bags with some sort of oxidizer, and it doesn't need to be sulfur, or elemental sulfur like one of the posters mentioned was hard to control. There are millions of oxidizing agents and thousands of compounds of sulfur that could do the trick, and each one of them would have different ways of reacting with the surface of a silver dollar. It shouldn't be that hard to identify at least one of those millions of chemicals that could accelerate natural toning processes on a silver dollar in a convincing way. Even if the financial incentive wasn't huge 20-30 years ago, if there was any difference, I think someone would have done it. Most chemicals are cheap. It might cost almost nothing and take little effort to tone a bag of uncirculated silver dollars. Plus, there's little downside since any fugly results could be dipped.
It also strikes me as odd that it doesn't seem like rainbow-toned coins are nearly as common in foreign coin series as US coin series. Perhaps this is because toned coins were dipped in the past, or because they were never stored like Morgan dollars, etc. Undoubtedly, collectors who have invested a lot of money in toned coins have some reasonable explanations, but that alone is a big obstacle for me to believe that most toned US coins in TPG holders are NT. If so, wouldn't there be a similar incidence of rainbow-toned British coins, for example?
Finally, in another thread, bushmaster, who I don't know personally, but who strikes me as an extremely well-informed and knowledgeable forum member, commented that he's amazed by the scope of the AT problem. It sounds like he thinks that there are an awful lot of expensive AT coins in PCGS and NGC holders, and that the graders either can't identify AT most of the time, or don't care (perhaps because AT isn't covered by either services' guarantee, even if a few AT coins here and there have been purchased in the past as a courtesy to instill confidence?). Bushmaster has pointed out in other threads some of the subtle clues that betray the work of coin doctors who make AT coins - things like flecks of certain colors in other colors, etc. - patterns and appearances that evidently never appear in nature. His explanations ring true to me, and so do his warnings about the inevitable collapse of that segment of the market once people realize how prevalent AT coins really are.
At the end of the day, after digesting this information, it seems risky for anyone to pay significant premiums for toned coins. If someone ever figures out how to identify AT with scientific certainty, a lot of good people might lose a fortune. If I was sitting on a valuable collection of toned coins, I'd want to get out of it now while it's still possible.
Teletrade coin at top of thread 100% NT...guaranteed. Totally obvious...you shouldn't even have to ask (now watch someone say they did it)...naw, not gonna happen.
I want to buy the Auroa Borealis call sign coin. How much dude?
<< <i>Teletrade coin at top of thread 100% NT...guaranteed. Totally obvious...you shouldn't even have to ask (now watch someone say they did it)...naw, not gonna happen.
I want to buy the Auroa Borealis call sign coin. How much dude?
hrh >>
What he said.............MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Teletrade coin at top of thread 100% NT...guaranteed. Totally obvious...you shouldn't even have to ask (now watch someone say they did it)...naw, not gonna happen.
I want to buy the Auroa Borealis call sign coin. How much dude?
hrh >>
I was pretty sure it was; just stirrin the pot so to speak.
<< <i>Teletrade coin at top of thread 100% NT...guaranteed. Totally obvious...you shouldn't even have to ask (now watch someone say they did it)...naw, not gonna happen.
I want to buy the Auroa Borealis call sign coin. How much dude?
hrh >>
"BF"Again i totally agree with "hrh`s statement...Very nice 04-O... "hrh i`ll try and copy my previous post replying to your inquiry a week or so ago...
Again all the best... AB
<< Aurora Borealis...
If your logo coin really exists you could really hose me on the price. Is it for sale?????
hrh >>
Good morning hrh...Yes that coin is most definitely real and as "bstclser" said it was lot#1216 in the Battle Creek sales in 05...And no i don`t mind at all bstclser...
I am very flattered hrh that you inquired about that coin which me and my family have named Aurora Borealis and is the signature coin for my collection...At this point in time we are still in the "loving it" process as i newly acquired it within the last year...I would never say never but in all likely hood that loving will last for many years...I have included some pics of the coin and my slab pic is really way too dark... Someday i plan to have all my collection professionally imaged...I also included a scan image of the coin that Laura DeFalco had taken and is amazing as if viewing the coin in direct light...And finally a collage image that i put together that has Aurora Borealis along with a few of her pals that i hope you enjoy...
Again thanks for the inquiry and all the best...AB
AB- I have a feeling when you do sell that coin to HRH that he will be crackin it out Batlle Creek or no Battle Creek holder
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<If I was sitting on a valuable collection of toned coins, I'd want to get out of it now while it's still possible>
I'm taking the opposite side of this point of view and I do have a considerable collection of toned coins ( at least to me)
Uber toned coins are practically off the market at present as collectors are squirrelling them away. This should actually drive prices up since TPG's are taking a cautious approach to newly submitted toned coins. It has been very hard for me to find toned coins that fit my collection at present.
If your assertion did come to fruition it would bring the whole coin market down with it including non toned coins as many collectors would just leave the hobby altogether . 95% of toned collectors will never collect white coins IMHO. Personally if the toned market were to crash in price I would scoop up as many toned coins to fill out my collection and then I would consentrate on bullion.
<It also strikes me as odd that it doesn't seem like rainbow-toned coins are nearly as common in foreign coin series as US coin series. Perhaps this is because toned coins were dipped in the past, or because they were never stored like Morgan dollars, etc. Undoubtedly, collectors who have invested a lot of money in toned coins have some reasonable explanations, but that alone is a big obstacle for me to believe that most toned US coins in TPG holders are NT. If so, wouldn't there be a similar incidence of rainbow-toned British coins, for example?>
Aren't Morgans really the only coin at issue when discussing vivid rainbow toned coins? The way they were stored would actually add credence to the NT phenomenon as it would be an isolated plausable issue. Sure there are fantastic toned commems, walkers, merc's franklins etc etc but none of them have the intense rainbow toning a Morgan can display. Some of them are freaks of nature. I don't subscribe to the baby with the bath water scenario being presented by a few in this thread. AT coins are just that-----AT and not market acceptable.
Your points are salient, I'm just not subcribing to them
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Do tell how storage of Morgans differed greatly from, say, half storage. Also, many wildly toned commemoratives and halves, etc. have showed up these last 20 or so years. With all due respect to HRH, a blanket assertion that the original OP coin is 100% NT is not really acceptable but rather only an opinion and there remains legitimate opposing points of view.
Interesting sidelight that our whole minting system and even many of the planchets which our own earlier coins were struck originated with the British who surprise of surprises have also very similar storage bags that have been subjected to WORLDWIDE environmental circumstances (in terms of temperatures, humidity, vaults, etc.) and do not show up with such toning until recent years, and this over here in the USA & esp. when sold by certain recognized purveyors (dealers) of such toned coins - not seen in Britain or colonies; this would be coins of all fineness from billon up through .958 and including crowns.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
Commems and Walkers just don't come toned like the Morgans we are discussing. I've seen exactly two commems in the universe that fit into that rainbow Morgan category. I've seen the two most vividly toned commem collections in person. NT slabbed Walkers just don't come toned like Morgans, not even in the same zip code. I have a toned Walker collection.........Morgan's are a different animal altogther. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Uhhh, Justcommemman, perhaps you missed the indirect citation of certain dealers that appear on these boards that sell vividly toned commems with toning very much like these Morgans. Electric neon toning, and I believe you should be aware of at least one....
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
I'm pretty active in the toned commem market and I was tutored by Gregg Bingham and by Larry Shepherd FWIW. I've seen my share of toned commems and own quite a few. I've seen the number one commem set ATS in person. I'll stand by my statement that I've only seen two commems that have close to the vivid (100% coverage) electric type rainbow toning one may find on a Morgan. I've seen hundred's if not thousands of rainbow Morgan's that I believe are NT. I've seen several that I believe were AT and they seemed obvious to me.
I do not know the dealer(s) in which you speak of in this thread and I'm not being coy or cute. I know of not one dealer who sells "vividly toned commems with toning very much like these Morgans" anywhere on the planet. Even Anaconda's monster toned commems did not measure up to some of the Morgan's in this thread albeit one exception. They just don't come with that kind of coverage and color pallette. Don't get me wrong, there are monster , monster commems out there, they are just flat out different with rare exception. And yes, there are AT commems out there........ So I'm aware. I'm also aware that there are AT coins in every series and it makes me....well.....sad.
Please show me a AT commem or Walker that's in a slab that's in any of the top registry sets. The top four commem sets ATS I've seen most of the coins. PM me if you wish. Are there any Morgan's posted in this thread that you feel are 100% AT? Unless, you are prepared to state that either all or the vast majority of toned coins are AT nothing quite sticks in your prose. The baby with the bathwater and NT coins being painted with a AT brush stance just doesn't do it for me. ( pun intended)
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I'm pretty active in the toned commem market and I was tutored by Gregg Bingham and by Larry Shepherd FWIW. I've seen my share of toned commems and own quite a few. I've seen the number one commem set ATS in person. I'll stand by my statement that I've only seen two commems that have close to the vivid (100% coverage) electric type rainbow toning one may find on a Morgan. I've seen hundred's if not thousands of rainbow Morgan's that I believe are NT. I've seen several that I believe were AT and they seemed obvious to me.
I do not know the dealer(s) in which you speak of in this thread and I'm not being coy or cute. I know of not one dealer who sells "vividly toned commems with toning very much like these Morgans" anywhere on the planet. Even Anaconda's monster toned commems did not measure up to some of the Morgan's in this thread albeit one exception. They just don't come with that kind of coverage and color pallette. Don't get me wrong, there are monster , monster commems out there, they are just flat out different with rare exception. And yes, there are AT commems out there........ So I'm aware. I'm also aware that there are AT coins in every series and it makes me....well.....sad.
Please show me a AT commem or Walker that's in a slab that's in any of the top registry sets. The top four commem sets ATS I've seen most of the coins. PM me if you wish. Are there any Morgan's posted in this thread that you feel are 100% AT? Unless, you are prepared to state that either all or the vast majority of toned coins are AT nothing quite sticks in your prose. The baby with the bathwater and NT coins being painted with a AT brush stance just doesn't do it for me. ( pun intended)
MJ >>
Having seen or handled a good number of top grade and color commems, I agree with the above. For the most part, even the wildly toned ones are not of the same ilk as many of the Morgan Dollars.
If someone is going to question the colors/originality of Morgan Dollars which have been found in bags, opened by numerous dealers during the last 25+ years, realistically, there is nothing anyone can do to convince them otherwise. And that's OK.
<< <i>I have been in the business full time since 1979. >>
That's some distance of ground. Perhaps you'd be willing to share with us some of your experienced insights into just why you believe this beloved hobby of ours is in this mess, today. I mean, if it's not too much to ask... >>
Our hobby is not in a mess. The problem of doctored coins is indeed a problem, but it does not plague numismatics as badly as some people would have you believe. Numismatic publications have greatly sensationalized the issues surrounding chinese counterfeits. Etc etc, I could go on for a while. If the hobby is in such a pile of slop, why did coins hold their value better than most other assets throughout the entire economic downturn?
There was recently a select group of Morgan dollars discovered that were artificially toned in a way which closely resembled bag toned Morgans. The coins were in PCGS holders and fooled almost everybody. However, that does not mean every coin that resembles a bag toned Morgan is AT. And 99% of the time, coins that have this look are still considered natural. If you don't believe this coin at least has the pattern of a bag toned Morgan, you need to reexamine what you think you know.
And to people who say that this type of color can be "easily duplicated," you have no idea what you're talking about. >>
Would you please post a picture of said coins?
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
Perhaps those who actually dipped scads of toned Morgans could chime in also. Unless one was pretty sure of the origin of the toned coins, I'd be real leery about dipping them lest one end up with a sorry looking POS.
<< <i>OK, how about a hint since we are being forthright about things: do I hear Great--ning? Probably will get crucified for saying this, but will anyway. >>
I'd like to buy a vowel Pat....................MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>OK, how about a hint since we are being forthright about things: do I hear Great--ning? Probably will get crucified for saying this, but will anyway. >>
I'd like to buy a vowel Pat....................MJ >>
<< <i>Must be kidding at even asking that - these are always voted "NT" on these boards. Politicall correct answer "NT"; IMO, absolutely AT.
I really am not impressed by the so-called evidence of people seeing such specimens when a sealed bag is first opened. Mint bags are NOT impervious to gaseous or liquid intrusions of oxidants, perhaps thought of as "AT in the bag" . Lo and behold we see eclispe patterns with coin overlay, etc. >>
How does that explain the apparent pattern difference in toning between a coin taken from a sealed waterproof mint bag and that taken from the end of a roll which has likely been exposed to a variety of storage conditions and atmospheres? I don't recall anyone ever posting here, an endroller with a rainbow pattern.
<< <i>I don't see how that addressed the questions pertaining to better dates not typically displaying that type of toning. >>
I didn't address those questions because, to be polite about it, they're highly speculative. But if the only inference you're capable of drawing from that is that sulfur-dipping therefore must be very difficult, I'll offer another inference. Those more expensive coins hadn't been sulfur-dipped because they had already been acid-dipped by the very same doctor-dealers who are now causing the sulfur-dipping problem and destroying the originality of our coins in that manner to make that same, fast, deceptive buck. >>
If a coin can bring in 10x sheet by being toned than being white, why would you not tone it? Also why would you not tone the obverse when it is obvious to most that that is the money side? Will the liver of sulfur work better on freshly dipped coins or on older coins with conditioned surfaces? >>
This money sided toner brought over $1200 with juice and shipping last night.
I will add, however, for those that believe the toned GSAs were AT'd, please let us know what the Government is hiding in Area 51. Thanks. >>
That's some edit-job. You cut it just as I was getting ready to reply to it.
OK, this is my understanding. The ones that made it into the GSA slabs were "white." I've owned maybe 30 or 40 of these, but I've seen probably hundreds more, in-hand, and, of course, in photographs, and I've never seen a toned one. If that's the case, that these were slabbed "white," then toned afterward while they were in the slabs, how is that, by any stretch of the imagination, "mint bag toning?" I don't understand that.
Then, again, I've asked, several times, to be shown just one toned one still in the GSA slab, and it's like, yeah, they exist, but they're secreted away in Area 51. I mean, really, can anyone show me one? What do I need for that, a FOIA form? I know what the representations are, I'd just like to actually see one.
This thread sure has legs.....I don't think I have ever seen a thread on here with more misinformation and that's saying a lot considering I have been on here since the beginning.
I think Mark Feld nailed it.......
<< <i>If someone is going to question the colors/originality of Morgan Dollars which have been found in bags, opened by numerous dealers during the last 25+ years, realistically, there is nothing anyone can do to convince them otherwise. And that's OK. >>
I will add, however, for those that believe the toned GSAs were AT'd, please let us know what the Government is hiding in Area 51. Thanks. >>
That's some edit-job. You cut it just as I was getting ready to reply to it.
OK, this is my understanding. The ones that made it into the GSA slabs were "white." I've owned maybe 30 or 40 of these, but I've seen probably hundreds more, in-hand, and, of course, in photographs, and I've never seen a toned one. If that's the case, that these were slabbed "white," then toned afterward while they were in the slabs, how is that, by any stretch of the imagination, "mint bag toning?" I don't understand that.
Then, again, I've asked, several times, to be shown just one toned one still in the GSA slab, and it's like, yeah, they exist, but they're secreted away in Area 51. I mean, really, can anyone show me one? What do I need for that, a FOIA form? I know what the representations are, I'd just like to actually see one. >>
Edited to add: That involved a search of about two minutes. I didn't care to spend additional time, but it's not at all difficult to find listings of "just one toned one still in the GSA slab", or, for that matter, quantities of them. And ditto for having seen them at coin shows over a long period of time.
I will add, however, for those that believe the toned GSAs were AT'd, please let us know what the Government is hiding in Area 51. Thanks. >>
That's some edit-job. You cut it just as I was getting ready to reply to it.
OK, this is my understanding. The ones that made it into the GSA slabs were "white." I've owned maybe 30 or 40 of these, but I've seen probably hundreds more, in-hand, and, of course, in photographs, and I've never seen a toned one. If that's the case, that these were slabbed "white," then toned afterward while they were in the slabs, how is that, by any stretch of the imagination, "mint bag toning?" I don't understand that.
Then, again, I've asked, several times, to be shown just one toned one still in the GSA slab, and it's like, yeah, they exist, but they're secreted away in Area 51. I mean, really, can anyone show me one? What do I need for that, a FOIA form? I know what the representations are, I'd just like to actually see one. >>
Do a search for author GSAGUY in the BST forum and you will find several examples in the first few items. It is my understanding that the really butt ugly drecky ones were not sold by the GSA.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Kryptonite - thanks for the picture but I see toning not neon electric toning, maybe just the generation of picture reaching me not good? >>
I'm not Kryptonite/Shane and I'm on a plane about to depart, so don't have time to get more detailed reply. But I found the information below with a quick search - pleased note the portion I highlighted in bold. My recollection is that there were many wildly toned examples in the hoard:
"The Continental-Illinois National Bank Hoard
The grand-daddy of all coin hoards, and the leading example of a successful hoard dispersal in all senses of the term, must be the Continental-Illinois National Bank hoard of silver dollars in the early 1980s.
Banks are required by federal law to keep a certain percentage of their “deposits” in cash at all times as one of their federal reserve requirements. For more than a century, it seems, the Continental-Illinois National Bank in Chicago kept a portion of its reserves in original mint bags of silver dollars.
Because of the bank’s financial difficulties in the early 1980s, the Board of Directors of the bank decided to sell the bags for the significant profit that they were worth over their face value, to help soften the financial crisis that so many banks were facing at the time.
Beginning in 1982 and lasting for several years, as many as 1,000 original bags of brilliant uncirculated Morgan silver dollars, and another 500 bags of circulated silver dollar, came out of this hoard. That means more than 1.5 million coins! The majority were common dates: 1879-S, 1880-S, 1881-S, 1882-S, 1883-O, 1884-O, 1885-O, 1886-P and 1887-P. There were a dozen or so bags each of 1883-P and 1884-P and a few more single bags of some other dates. Beyond the sheer numbers, the condition of the coins was remarkable. Many from this hoard were absolutely breathtaking gems, exhibiting incredible cartwheel luster, magnificent rainbow toning, and outstanding proof-like strikes. .
Marketing of the Continental-Illinois National Bank hoard was handled in model fashion. From the very start, the two or three major retailers who were charged with organizing the dispersal understood that the greatest benefit to all would be obtained by utilizing the abilities of the entire industry, wholesalers and retailers alike. By establishing an extremely wide distribution channel, they could rely upon the grass-roots marketing efforts of mail order and storefront dealers, and millions of customers would be reached directly. The combination of product, story, and price was a perfect fit for them. Extraordinary demand was created, and because so much of the industry was involved, the after-market support was firmly in place and demand for the hoard coins continued to build.
As a result of this successful dispersal strategy, the entire silver dollar market grew for the next five years. From 1982 to 1985, for example, Morgan Silver Dollars in MS 65 increased in average value by 450%! Collectors and investors alike were happy, and the hobby enjoyed a wonderful resurgence." >>
Cool pic there "Kyrpto" and thanks for sharing that quick search "coinguy1"... Here`s a link and a few pics of one of mine that was out of the Continental Bank Hoard that me and my family enjoy...
AB
KT Link
So with all due respect, I would look for some other examples but please keep them coming and thanks for your troubles.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>Each of us is free to agree or disagree with what others post. And if I feel like saying I am glad to see an apology and/or that I agree a particular post is thought provoking, I will do so.
And, whether intentionally or otherwise, you have insulted more than one person in this thread, as well as others recently. Surely, you are observant enough to be aware of that. I've attempted to answer many of your questions in the past, despite the fact that I felt you had a tendency to be rude. I have finally learned my lesson. >>
That’s a very piercing portrait. While I don't mean to belabor this, I do feel it’s incumbent upon me to inquire, are you in the habit of scrutinizing the conduct of all the members, here, similarly, or is that high honor rather exclusively reserved for the members who have from time to time had the utter ingratitude to have expressed dissenting opinions from your own? I mean, if I might, likewise, offer a portrait, you do seem to have a certain pathological preoccupation with judging people, Mark, as well as an uncanny intolerance for the free and robust expression of unpopular ideas.
Tell you what’s going to happen, you and guys like PCcoins keep this intimidation up, you’re going to lose people. And, in time, you’re going to end up with a captive audience, here. But, then, perhaps that’s what you’d prefer. At any rate, I wouldn’t put that past you.
Get off my back. Do you think you can manage that? I’d sincerely appreciate it.
<< <i>
blatantly AT. i am surprised at how many of these make it into pcgs holders.
<< <i>
<< <i>Each of us is free to agree or disagree with what others post. And if I feel like saying I am glad to see an apology and/or that I agree a particular post is thought provoking, I will do so.
And, whether intentionally or otherwise, you have insulted more than one person in this thread, as well as others recently. Surely, you are observant enough to be aware of that. I've attempted to answer many of your questions in the past, despite the fact that I felt you had a tendency to be rude. I have finally learned my lesson. >>
That’s a very piercing portrait. While I don't mean to belabor this, I do feel it’s incumbent upon me to inquire, are you in the habit of scrutinizing the conduct of all the members, here, similarly, or is that high honor rather exclusively reserved for the members who have from time to time had the utter ingratitude to have expressed dissenting opinions from your own? I mean, if I might, likewise, offer a portrait, you do seem to have a certain pathological preoccupation with judging people, Mark, as well as an uncanny intolerance for the free and robust expression of unpopular ideas.
Tell you what’s going to happen, you and guys like PCcoins keep this intimidation up, you’re going to lose people. And, in time, you’re going to end up with a captive audience, here. But, then, perhaps that’s what you’d prefer. At any rate, I wouldn’t put that past you.
Get off my back. Do you think you can manage that? I’d sincerely appreciate it. >>
Please don't give yourself too much undeserved credit. I have plenty of disagreements with other people about all sorts of things which are discussed here. And many of those posters are friends of mine. I welcome differing opinions and good debates. It's just that I prefer polite ones and often speak up when others are rude.
<< <i>Coinguy, thanks for the citation, but would like to know when the bags were opened and the storage conditions as these would be crucial - the so-called custody chain. This worries me tremendously in terms of accepting evidence & also for the reasons outlined above must question the veracity of somebody reporting on such bags that is also selling them - they may be completely accurate in their reporting but certainly there is motive for the quality and content of the reports they generate.
So with all due respect, I would look for some other examples but please keep them coming and thanks for your troubles. >>
7Jaguars, I don't claim to know the "so called custody chain". All I can tell you is that I have seen such bags opened, know many other long time dealers who have opened them and trust that the bags had not been messed with. And please keep in mind, that way back when, there wouldn't have been the same incentive to produce such coins, yet they still surfaced.
I ask you in all sincerity, specifically, what scenario (over a period of more than a century of storage) would satisfy you in that regard? In other words, under what circumstances would you agree that wildly toned Morgan Dollars from bags were naturally toned? Thanks.
or something, lets get back to coins in general!
<< <i>I discovered how to remove the milky spots without ANY damage to the coin. Even from MS/PR70 coins with zero damage and zero change to the original luster. >>
It'll also remove NT toning from Morgans.
You dippers would love on get your mitts on this, but I simply cannot allow you to destroy any more toned coins in search of some shiny/BORING coin. Stick to your MS70 dip. This secret will go with me to the grave or for several million dollars. Which ever comes first.
How bout this one? NT R AT?
<< <i>
How bout this one? NT R AT?
>>
I thought you were gonna sell this one to me for cheap. WTH?
Give up your evil ways and let me take the burden of all those nasty marred up Morgans off your hands. I ONLY offer to do this to help YOU. Heck, why in Pete's name would I want a bunch of crayon coins for?
Leonidas, use your logic.
<< <i>
>>
Bajjerfan,
I have an 1885 that was plucked directly from a mint bag that has a very similar toning pattern to your 1883-O.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I too have been in coins for over 40 years and cerainly am not bragging about education but will just say that I have a lot of science background that def. applies to metals, as well as quite a bit more. I do not try to pull rank, but have been trained as a scientist and so come from that background.
So proof is a difficult topic, believing 10% what is heard and 50% what is seen, even by a trained observer....Well, at work and will revisit this shortly.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>Coin guy, my only thought (well maybe a couple others going on as well) is that these were not, as far as I can ascertain, clearly known from 20, 30 or more years ago - even though many chemicals were available then.
I too have been in coins for over 40 years and cerainly am not bragging about education but will just say that I have a lot of science background that def. applies to metals, as well as quite a bit more. I do not try to pull rank, but have been trained as a scientist and so come from that background.
So proof is a difficult topic, believing 10% what is heard and 50% what is seen, even by a trained observer....Well, at work and will revisit this shortly. >>
Thanks for your reply. I and many other dealers (including David Hall) and collectors bought and sold such coins more than 20 years ago. Keep in mind, that in almost every instance, the coins would not have received nearly as much widespread publicity in pre-internet times.
<< <i>Thanks for your reply. I and many other dealers (including David Hall) and collectors bought and sold such coins more than 20 years ago. Keep in mind, that in almost every instance, the coins would not have received nearly as much widespread publicity in pre-internet times. >>
Having collected toned coins since 1974, I know for a fact that they were available. The only problem was getting to them before the dealers dipped them, as everyone wanted white back then. Since few people wanted them, there was not much publicity about them. Unfortunately, many beautiful specimens were destroyed by dipping.
Larry L.
There are thousands of labs in the USA with the equipment to do this sort of thing, because the equipment is used for other, common purposes like forensic/environmental/biochem analysis and sample preparation, materials synthesis, and electron microscopy work. Therefore, it seems to me that there are thousands of collectors with lab access who could make convincing AT coins with a little effort if they were so inclined. Moreover, they can probably make AT coins in a way that looks almost indistinguishable from NT, since the physical process is very similar.
I don't doubt that Mark and other experienced dealers have seen rainbow-toned coins come out of sealed bags, and the coins they've seen could very well have been NT. However, I don't think it's impossible that they were AT even if they came out of sealed bags 30 years ago. If there was any premium for toned coins when these sealed bags were opened, it seems like there would have been a financial incentive to find a way to tone the coins in the bag. That could have been done by gassing the bags with some sort of oxidizer, and it doesn't need to be sulfur, or elemental sulfur like one of the posters mentioned was hard to control. There are millions of oxidizing agents and thousands of compounds of sulfur that could do the trick, and each one of them would have different ways of reacting with the surface of a silver dollar. It shouldn't be that hard to identify at least one of those millions of chemicals that could accelerate natural toning processes on a silver dollar in a convincing way. Even if the financial incentive wasn't huge 20-30 years ago, if there was any difference, I think someone would have done it. Most chemicals are cheap. It might cost almost nothing and take little effort to tone a bag of uncirculated silver dollars. Plus, there's little downside since any fugly results could be dipped.
It also strikes me as odd that it doesn't seem like rainbow-toned coins are nearly as common in foreign coin series as US coin series. Perhaps this is because toned coins were dipped in the past, or because they were never stored like Morgan dollars, etc. Undoubtedly, collectors who have invested a lot of money in toned coins have some reasonable explanations, but that alone is a big obstacle for me to believe that most toned US coins in TPG holders are NT. If so, wouldn't there be a similar incidence of rainbow-toned British coins, for example?
Finally, in another thread, bushmaster, who I don't know personally, but who strikes me as an extremely well-informed and knowledgeable forum member, commented that he's amazed by the scope of the AT problem. It sounds like he thinks that there are an awful lot of expensive AT coins in PCGS and NGC holders, and that the graders either can't identify AT most of the time, or don't care (perhaps because AT isn't covered by either services' guarantee, even if a few AT coins here and there have been purchased in the past as a courtesy to instill confidence?). Bushmaster has pointed out in other threads some of the subtle clues that betray the work of coin doctors who make AT coins - things like flecks of certain colors in other colors, etc. - patterns and appearances that evidently never appear in nature. His explanations ring true to me, and so do his warnings about the inevitable collapse of that segment of the market once people realize how prevalent AT coins really are.
At the end of the day, after digesting this information, it seems risky for anyone to pay significant premiums for toned coins. If someone ever figures out how to identify AT with scientific certainty, a lot of good people might lose a fortune. If I was sitting on a valuable collection of toned coins, I'd want to get out of it now while it's still possible.
I want to buy the Auroa Borealis call sign coin. How much dude?
hrh
<< <i>Teletrade coin at top of thread 100% NT...guaranteed. Totally obvious...you shouldn't even have to ask (now watch someone say they did it)...naw, not gonna happen.
I want to buy the Auroa Borealis call sign coin. How much dude?
hrh >>
What he said.............MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Teletrade coin at top of thread 100% NT...guaranteed. Totally obvious...you shouldn't even have to ask (now watch someone say they did it)...naw, not gonna happen.
I want to buy the Auroa Borealis call sign coin. How much dude?
hrh >>
I was pretty sure it was; just stirrin the pot so to speak.
bajjerfan...I'm kinda liking your call sign coin too...is it for sale?????
hrh
<< <i>bajjerfan...I'm kinda liking your call sign coin too...is it for sale?????
hrh >>
This one? I think my grandmunchkins might disown me if I sold it.
<< <i>Teletrade coin at top of thread 100% NT...guaranteed. Totally obvious...you shouldn't even have to ask (now watch someone say they did it)...naw, not gonna happen.
I want to buy the Auroa Borealis call sign coin. How much dude?
hrh >>
"BF"Again i totally agree with "hrh`s statement...Very nice 04-O...
"hrh i`ll try and copy my previous post replying to your inquiry a week or so ago...
Again all the best... AB
<< Aurora Borealis...
If your logo coin really exists you could really hose me on the price. Is it for sale?????
hrh >>
Good morning hrh...Yes that coin is most definitely real and as "bstclser" said it was lot#1216 in the Battle Creek sales in 05...And no i don`t mind at all bstclser...
I am very flattered hrh that you inquired about that coin which me and my family have named Aurora Borealis and is the signature coin for my collection...At this point in time we are still in the "loving it" process as i newly acquired it within the last year...I would never say never but in all likely hood that loving will last for many years...I have included some pics of the coin and my slab pic is really way too dark... Someday i plan to have all my collection professionally imaged...I also included a scan image of the coin that Laura DeFalco had taken and is amazing as if viewing the coin in direct light...And finally a collage image that i put together that has Aurora Borealis along with a few of her pals that i hope you enjoy...
Again thanks for the inquiry and all the best...AB
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I'm taking the opposite side of this point of view and I do have a considerable collection of toned coins ( at least to me)
Uber toned coins are practically off the market at present as collectors are squirrelling them away. This should actually drive prices up since TPG's are taking a cautious approach to newly submitted toned coins. It has been very hard for me to find toned coins that fit my collection at present.
If your assertion did come to fruition it would bring the whole coin market down with it including non toned coins as many collectors would just leave the hobby altogether . 95% of toned collectors will never collect white coins IMHO. Personally if the toned market were to crash in price I would scoop up as many toned coins to fill out my collection and then I would consentrate on bullion.
<It also strikes me as odd that it doesn't seem like rainbow-toned coins are nearly as common in foreign coin series as US coin series. Perhaps this is because toned coins were dipped in the past, or because they were never stored like Morgan dollars, etc. Undoubtedly, collectors who have invested a lot of money in toned coins have some reasonable explanations, but that alone is a big obstacle for me to believe that most toned US coins in TPG holders are NT. If so, wouldn't there be a similar incidence of rainbow-toned British coins, for example?>
Aren't Morgans really the only coin at issue when discussing vivid rainbow toned coins? The way they were stored would actually add credence to the NT phenomenon as it would be an isolated plausable issue. Sure there are fantastic toned commems, walkers, merc's franklins etc etc but none of them have the intense rainbow toning a Morgan can display. Some of them are freaks of nature. I don't subscribe to the baby with the bath water scenario being presented by a few in this thread. AT coins are just that-----AT and not market acceptable.
Your points are salient, I'm just not subcribing to them
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
With all due respect to HRH, a blanket assertion that the original OP coin is 100% NT is not really acceptable but rather only an opinion and there remains legitimate opposing points of view.
Interesting sidelight that our whole minting system and even many of the planchets which our own earlier coins were struck originated with the British who surprise of surprises have also very similar storage bags that have been subjected to WORLDWIDE environmental circumstances (in terms of temperatures, humidity, vaults, etc.) and do not show up with such toning until recent years, and this over here in the USA & esp. when sold by certain recognized purveyors (dealers) of such toned coins - not seen in Britain or colonies; this would be coins of all fineness from billon up through .958 and including crowns.
Well, just Love coins, period.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>AB- I have a feeling when you do sell that coin to HRH that he will be crackin it out Batlle Creek or no Battle Creek holder
MJ >>
I bet it still keeps the pedigree; I believe there are some that have.
Well, just Love coins, period.
I'm pretty active in the toned commem market and I was tutored by Gregg Bingham and by Larry Shepherd FWIW. I've seen my share of toned commems and own quite a few. I've seen the number one commem set ATS in person. I'll stand by my statement that I've only seen two commems that have close to the vivid (100% coverage) electric type rainbow toning one may find on a Morgan. I've seen hundred's if not thousands of rainbow Morgan's that I believe are NT. I've seen several that I believe were AT and they seemed obvious to me.
I do not know the dealer(s) in which you speak of in this thread and I'm not being coy or cute. I know of not one dealer who sells "vividly toned commems with toning very much like these Morgans" anywhere on the planet. Even Anaconda's monster toned commems did not measure up to some of the Morgan's in this thread albeit one exception. They just don't come with that kind of coverage and color pallette. Don't get me wrong, there are monster , monster commems out there, they are just flat out different with rare exception. And yes, there are AT commems out there........ So I'm aware. I'm also aware that there are AT coins in every series and it makes me....well.....sad.
Please show me a AT commem or Walker that's in a slab that's in any of the top registry sets. The top four commem sets ATS I've seen most of the coins. PM me if you wish. Are there any Morgan's posted in this thread that you feel are 100% AT? Unless, you are prepared to state that either all or the vast majority of toned coins are AT nothing quite sticks in your prose. The baby with the bathwater and NT coins being painted with a AT brush stance just doesn't do it for me. ( pun intended)
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>7
I'm pretty active in the toned commem market and I was tutored by Gregg Bingham and by Larry Shepherd FWIW. I've seen my share of toned commems and own quite a few. I've seen the number one commem set ATS in person. I'll stand by my statement that I've only seen two commems that have close to the vivid (100% coverage) electric type rainbow toning one may find on a Morgan. I've seen hundred's if not thousands of rainbow Morgan's that I believe are NT. I've seen several that I believe were AT and they seemed obvious to me.
I do not know the dealer(s) in which you speak of in this thread and I'm not being coy or cute. I know of not one dealer who sells "vividly toned commems with toning very much like these Morgans" anywhere on the planet. Even Anaconda's monster toned commems did not measure up to some of the Morgan's in this thread albeit one exception. They just don't come with that kind of coverage and color pallette. Don't get me wrong, there are monster , monster commems out there, they are just flat out different with rare exception. And yes, there are AT commems out there........ So I'm aware. I'm also aware that there are AT coins in every series and it makes me....well.....sad.
Please show me a AT commem or Walker that's in a slab that's in any of the top registry sets. The top four commem sets ATS I've seen most of the coins. PM me if you wish. Are there any Morgan's posted in this thread that you feel are 100% AT? Unless, you are prepared to state that either all or the vast majority of toned coins are AT nothing quite sticks in your prose. The baby with the bathwater and NT coins being painted with a AT brush stance just doesn't do it for me. ( pun intended)
MJ >>
Having seen or handled a good number of top grade and color commems, I agree with the above. For the most part, even the wildly toned ones are not of the same ilk as many of the Morgan Dollars.
If someone is going to question the colors/originality of Morgan Dollars which have been found in bags, opened by numerous dealers during the last 25+ years, realistically, there is nothing anyone can do to convince them otherwise. And that's OK.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I have been in the business full time since 1979. >>
That's some distance of ground. Perhaps you'd be willing to share with us some of your experienced insights into just why you believe this beloved hobby of ours is in this mess, today. I mean, if it's not too much to ask... >>
Our hobby is not in a mess. The problem of doctored coins is indeed a problem, but it does not plague numismatics as badly as some people would have you believe. Numismatic publications have greatly sensationalized the issues surrounding chinese counterfeits. Etc etc, I could go on for a while. If the hobby is in such a pile of slop, why did coins hold their value better than most other assets throughout the entire economic downturn?
There was recently a select group of Morgan dollars discovered that were artificially toned in a way which closely resembled bag toned Morgans. The coins were in PCGS holders and fooled almost everybody. However, that does not mean every coin that resembles a bag toned Morgan is AT. And 99% of the time, coins that have this look are still considered natural. If you don't believe this coin at least has the pattern of a bag toned Morgan, you need to reexamine what you think you know.
And to people who say that this type of color can be "easily duplicated," you have no idea what you're talking about. >>
Would you please post a picture of said coins?
<< <i>
<< <i>AB- I have a feeling when you do sell that coin to HRH that he will be crackin it out Batlle Creek or no Battle Creek holder
MJ >>
I bet it still keeps the pedigree; I believe there are some that have. >>
Here`s one of mine that has....
AB
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>OK, how about a hint since we are being forthright about things: do I hear Great--ning? Probably will get crucified for saying this, but will anyway. >>
I'd like to buy a vowel Pat....................MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>OK, how about a hint since we are being forthright about things: do I hear Great--ning? Probably will get crucified for saying this, but will anyway. >>
I'd like to buy a vowel Pat....................MJ >>
And i would Like a "T" please pat
<< <i>Must be kidding at even asking that - these are always voted "NT" on these boards. Politicall correct answer "NT"; IMO, absolutely AT.
I really am not impressed by the so-called evidence of people seeing such specimens when a sealed bag is first opened. Mint bags are NOT impervious to gaseous or liquid intrusions of oxidants, perhaps thought of as "AT in the bag" . Lo and behold we see eclispe patterns with coin overlay, etc. >>
How does that explain the apparent pattern difference in toning between a coin taken from a sealed waterproof mint bag and that taken from the end of a roll which has likely been exposed to a variety of storage conditions and atmospheres? I don't recall anyone ever posting here, an endroller with a rainbow pattern.
<< <i>
I don't recall anyone ever posting here, an endroller with a rainbow pattern. >>
I guess we need to remedy that!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't see how that addressed the questions pertaining to better dates not typically displaying that type of toning. >>
I didn't address those questions because, to be polite about it, they're highly speculative. But if the only inference you're capable of drawing from that is that sulfur-dipping therefore must be very difficult, I'll offer another inference. Those more expensive coins hadn't been sulfur-dipped because they had already been acid-dipped by the very same doctor-dealers who are now causing the sulfur-dipping problem and destroying the originality of our coins in that manner to make that same, fast, deceptive buck. >>
If a coin can bring in 10x sheet by being toned than being white, why would you not tone it? Also why would you not tone the obverse when it is obvious to most that that is the money side? Will the liver of sulfur work better on freshly dipped coins or on older coins with conditioned surfaces? >>
This money sided toner brought over $1200 with juice and shipping last night.
<< <i>
<< <i>IMO the very Battle Creek coins themselves should be stars of the AT brigade. >>
Tell me about it! >>
IMO those who really believe this are sadly misinformed.
I will add, however, for those that believe the toned GSAs were AT'd, please let us know what the Government is hiding in Area 51. Thanks.
<< <i>Edit: Never mind, GSAs were discussed.
I will add, however, for those that believe the toned GSAs were AT'd, please let us know what the Government is hiding in Area 51. Thanks. >>
That's some edit-job. You cut it just as I was getting ready to reply to it.
OK, this is my understanding. The ones that made it into the GSA slabs were "white." I've owned maybe 30 or 40 of these, but I've seen probably hundreds more, in-hand, and, of course, in photographs, and I've never seen a toned one. If that's the case, that these were slabbed "white," then toned afterward while they were in the slabs, how is that, by any stretch of the imagination, "mint bag toning?" I don't understand that.
Then, again, I've asked, several times, to be shown just one toned one still in the GSA slab, and it's like, yeah, they exist, but they're secreted away in Area 51. I mean, really, can anyone show me one? What do I need for that, a FOIA form? I know what the representations are, I'd just like to actually see one.
<< <i>Put it on anything other than a morgan though, and BAM suddenly its blatant AT >>
Ain't it the truth?
I think Mark Feld nailed it.......
<< <i>If someone is going to question the colors/originality of Morgan Dollars which have been found in bags, opened by numerous dealers during the last 25+ years, realistically, there is nothing anyone can do to convince them otherwise. And that's OK. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>Edit: Never mind, GSAs were discussed.
I will add, however, for those that believe the toned GSAs were AT'd, please let us know what the Government is hiding in Area 51. Thanks. >>
That's some edit-job. You cut it just as I was getting ready to reply to it.
OK, this is my understanding. The ones that made it into the GSA slabs were "white." I've owned maybe 30 or 40 of these, but I've seen probably hundreds more, in-hand, and, of course, in photographs, and I've never seen a toned one. If that's the case, that these were slabbed "white," then toned afterward while they were in the slabs, how is that, by any stretch of the imagination, "mint bag toning?" I don't understand that.
Then, again, I've asked, several times, to be shown just one toned one still in the GSA slab, and it's like, yeah, they exist, but they're secreted away in Area 51. I mean, really, can anyone show me one? What do I need for that, a FOIA form? I know what the representations are, I'd just like to actually see one. >>
See here
And here
And here
Edited to add: That involved a search of about two minutes. I didn't care to spend additional time, but it's not at all difficult to find listings of "just one toned one still in the GSA slab", or, for that matter, quantities of them. And ditto for having seen them at coin shows over a long period of time.
<< <i>
<< <i>Edit: Never mind, GSAs were discussed.
I will add, however, for those that believe the toned GSAs were AT'd, please let us know what the Government is hiding in Area 51. Thanks. >>
That's some edit-job. You cut it just as I was getting ready to reply to it.
OK, this is my understanding. The ones that made it into the GSA slabs were "white." I've owned maybe 30 or 40 of these, but I've seen probably hundreds more, in-hand, and, of course, in photographs, and I've never seen a toned one. If that's the case, that these were slabbed "white," then toned afterward while they were in the slabs, how is that, by any stretch of the imagination, "mint bag toning?" I don't understand that.
Then, again, I've asked, several times, to be shown just one toned one still in the GSA slab, and it's like, yeah, they exist, but they're secreted away in Area 51. I mean, really, can anyone show me one? What do I need for that, a FOIA form? I know what the representations are, I'd just like to actually see one. >>
Do a search for author GSAGUY in the BST forum and you will find several examples in the first few items. It is my understanding that the really butt ugly drecky ones were not sold by the GSA.