Interesting CAC/NGC story PCGS DNC
clackamas
Posts: 5,615 ✭
I have an NGC MS65RD 1902 Indian cent, I purchased at the ANA in Portland from a dealer sharing the booth with Rick Snow. Its a gorgeous coin so I sent it to CAC and received a green bean, I agree its solid/upper end for the grade. So I try to cross it, got the DNC today. Is that a statement or what? Of course the graders can see the NGC holder with the CAC sticker.
1902 Grade
1902 Grade
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<< <i>I have an NGC MS65RD 1902 Indian cent, I purchased at the ANA in Portland from a dealer sharing the booth with Rick Snow. Its a gorgeous coin so I sent it to CAC and received a green bean, I agree its solid/upper end for the grade. So I try to cross it, got the DNC today. Is that a statement or what? Of course the graders can see the NGC holder with the CAC sticker.
1902 Grade >>
PCGS notches the holder every time you send it in and it DNCs. On the 9th notch, they will cross it.
TRUTH
Crack it and you will get your grade...
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<< <i>So I try to cross it, got the DNC today. Is that a statement or what? >>
I don't believe this is surprising, or unusual, or that it is a statement of anything other than the fact that PCGS may have different standards and is not going to cross a coin simply because NGC graded it and/or CAC stickered it.
Of course, as others have pointed out, grading is an opinion and that opinion may differ over time.
On the other hand, it is also very possible that your coin was submitted to PCGS either for grading or crossover well before you ever owned it or CAC stickered it, and they may not have seen it as a 65 RD back then.
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<< <i>There is so many words i could say to sum up what i think of this but i will just keep my mouth shut. >>
I'm with you on that. I will, however, say that this sounds like total BS. I know I would be dumbfounded...and PI$$ED. You just have to wonder what exactly they're looking for. I mean, you have another highly respected TPG AND CAC's approval of the grade.?????
Bottom line is, I feel for the OP on this one. Doesn't sound right to me.
Franklin-Lover's Forum
why didn't you buy one in PCGS holder to begin with?
<< <i>CAC only looks at grade not at color. Maybe PCGS didnt like the color. >>
I don't think your statement is correct. I have posted this question in the past and many reputable members replied that the bean applies to everything on the label (i.e. - grade and color designation).
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
<< <i>CAC only looks at grade not at color. Maybe PCGS didnt like the color. >>
That is incorrect.
If they disagree with the color designation they will not sticker the coin. After all, they place many sight-unseen bids, and coins that they sticker are eligible for those bids. So, for example, it would not make any sense to sticker as "RD", a copper coin which is really "RB" and could be subject to a bid for a "RD" coin.
<< <i>The PCGS grading opinion of the coin differs from the NGC and CAC opinions. Nothing is certain when opinions are involved. >>
The fact that they often cross AFTER being cracked out suggests that their opinions/standards are a lot more alike than they are different. They say they can't see the edge, but really how many coins in NGC or other TPG holders have bodybagable edges? I would say very very few.
<< <i>
<< <i>CAC only looks at grade not at color. Maybe PCGS didnt like the color. >>
That is incorrect.
If they disagree with the color designation they will not sticker the coin. After all, they place many sight-unseen bids, and coins that they sticker are eligible for those bids. So, for example, it would not make any sense to sticker as "RD", a copper coin which is really "RB" and could be subject to a bid for a "RD" coin. >>
My bad, I was under the impression that was the case... I was wrong.
<< <i>Do you have a pic of the coin? Maybe the reason PCGS DNC had more to do with the RD designation rather than the MS65 grade. >>
I don't right now, when I get it back I will post one, side by side with my PCGS MS64RD 1902, apparently both would PCGS MS64RD's.
I am not at all surprised to see crossover results like on the coin used to start this thread. I have personally seen many NGC/CAC coins that will not cross to PCGS at grade, and often they will not even cross at any grade. PCGS uses "Questionable color" on lots of NGC coins. There is no question that PCGS, NGC, and CAC each have their separate OPINIONS on grading, and those opinions often disagree.
I see that as a way to end up with a bigger problem - a coin in a lower grade holder, with additional fees expended. And in most cases that will be bad financially, for the submitter. A better way around the problem, and one that has been suggested many times previously, is to buy the coin in the PCGS holder, if ultimately, you want it in a PCGS holder.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have an NGC MS65RD 1902 Indian cent, I purchased at the ANA in Portland from a dealer sharing the booth with Rick Snow. Its a gorgeous coin so I sent it to CAC and received a green bean, I agree its solid/upper end for the grade. So I try to cross it, got the DNC today. Is that a statement or what? Of course the graders can see the NGC holder with the CAC sticker.
1902 Grade >>
PCGS notches the holder every time you send it in and it DNCs. On the 9th notch, they will cross it.
TRUTH >>
Oh really? Where are the notches, so that I can pre-notch so that mine will cross the first time
<< <i><<The only way around this problem, as I see it, is to allow a cross at a lower grade. After the coin is in the PCGS holder, it then can be submitted for regrade, where the coin is taken out of the holder, so the graders can see the entire coin.>>
I see that as a way to end up with a bigger problem - a coin in a lower grade holder, with additional fees expended. And in most cases that will be bad financially, for the submitter. A better way around the problem, and one that has been suggested many times previously, is to buy the coin in the PCGS holder, if ultimately, you want it in a PCGS holder. >>
Its not a big deal its in an NGC holder, I just can't add it to my set, I went through quite a few years passing on 65RD's of this date to get the one I liked, it just happens to be in an NGC holder. I may have purchased the 64RD from you Jaime, I don't really remember where I got it, if you sold me one that must be it because I only now have 4 MS 1902 Indians, 2 RB's and 2 RD's.
Crack the coin out and submit it that way.
<< <i>After all, they place many sight-unseen bids, and coins that they sticker are eligible for those bids. >>
Hi Mark - I'm relatively new here and recently joined CAC also. I have received about 25 "green beans" thus far and got my 1st "gold bean" this week.
Anyway, I've heard of these "CAC sight-unseen bids" but don't know where to go to find them. Do you have a source?
I may want to sell some of these pieces in the future.
Thanks......
<< <i>
<< <i>After all, they place many sight-unseen bids, and coins that they sticker are eligible for those bids. >>
Hi Mark - I'm relatively new here and recently joined CAC also. I have received about 25 "green beans" thus far and got my 1st "gold bean" this week.
Anyway, I've heard of these "CAC sight-unseen bids" but don't know where to go to find them. Do you have a source?
I may want to sell some of these pieces in the future.
Thanks......
Hi, I don't want to derail this thread so will send you a PM shortly.
And would those bids be different for NGC vs. PCGS coins : same date -same grade ? or would the bid be generic ?
(don't mean to derail thread - I thought it pertinent since CAC/NGC/PCGS are in the title ......)
Back to the post .........
If I saw a Indian in a case next to R. Snow , I would assume he saw it and passed on it . If there was crossing/upgrade potential ,
gotta figure he would have seen it .
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<< <i>Is it safe to say any beaned coin has a sight unseen bid from CAC at any given time ?
And would those bids be different for NGC vs. PCGS coins : same date -same grade ? or would the bid be generic ?
(don't mean to derail thread - I thought it pertinent since CAC/NGC/PCGS are in the title ......)
Back to the post .........
If I saw a Indian in a case next to R. Snow , I would assume he saw it and passed on it . If there was crossing/upgrade potential ,
gotta figure he would have seen it . >>
Or at the very least R. Snow would have stickered it as well.
Franklin-Lover's Forum
<< <i>Is it safe to say any beaned coin has a sight unseen bid from CAC at any given time ?
And would those bids be different for NGC vs. PCGS coins : same date -same grade ? or would the bid be generic ?
(don't mean to derail thread - I thought it pertinent since CAC/NGC/PCGS are in the title ......)
Back to the post .........
If I saw a Indian in a case next to R. Snow , I would assume he saw it and passed on it . If there was crossing/upgrade potential ,
gotta figure he would have seen it . >>
What if he did see it but the dealer wanted 'all the money" for it... if there was no "meat left on the bone", I would expect that could be another reason for Rick to pass... just another possible scenario...
<< <i>I have an NGC MS65RD 1902 Indian cent, I purchased at the ANA in Portland from a dealer sharing the booth with Rick Snow. Its a gorgeous coin so I sent it to CAC and received a green bean, I agree its solid/upper end for the grade. So I try to cross it, got the DNC today. Is that a statement or what? Of course the graders can see the NGC holder with the CAC sticker.
1902 Grade >>
Why though would you expect PCGS to "rubber stamp" either NGC or especially, IMHO, CAC? Seriously, there's a reason why PCGS is THE premier grading company.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have an NGC MS65RD 1902 Indian cent, I purchased at the ANA in Portland from a dealer sharing the booth with Rick Snow. Its a gorgeous coin so I sent it to CAC and received a green bean, I agree its solid/upper end for the grade. So I try to cross it, got the DNC today. Is that a statement or what? Of course the graders can see the NGC holder with the CAC sticker.
1902 Grade >>
Why though would you expect PCGS to "rubber stamp" either NGC or especially, IMHO, CAC? Seriously, there's a reason why PCGS is THE premier grading company. >>
The premise I used was that I already owned a PCGS MS64RD 1902 as well, this was a very nice coin, and CAC agreed. CAC, supposedly does not differentiate between grading services, it uses its own standards to determine if a coin is solid for the grade assigned be either service (if NGC was "easier" they would have given it a 66RD and CAC would not have stickered the coin, meaning that it this coin in no way a 64RD from either service. Surely PCGS will not "rubber" stamp it, but I find it curious that I think they may have done the opposite. It may is be more related to PCGS and copper coins these days, I don't think they want to come out and say it, but they are telling those of us, through our grades, don't send us copper.
<< <i>I asked before, and received no response, where can I find these CAC buy listings? >>
Sign up for CCE and they will have bids for CAC graded coins.
TRUTH