Sure glad that I never got collecting these Presidential Dollars

Caleb · July 13, 2010 1:52AM

<< “At PCGS we are constantly leading numismatic research efforts. The object is to make the numismatic information used by PCGS and indeed the entire numismatic community as accurate as possible. One of the most exciting aspects of numismatic is that it's an evolving field with new information and even new discoveries always coming forth. Below is a partial list of pending PCGS research questions and the coins involved”. …………………………………

………”Presidential Dollars...varieties or mint errors? PCGS currently recognizes various types of "missing edge letters" versions of Presidential Dollars as major varieties. We need to review this series closely. There is a good argument that can be made that the various edge letters "varieties" are actually mint errors or striking variations and not true varieties. This would of course change the composition of many sets in the PCGS Set Registry. Another strong argument could be made that we have too many set variations in the Set Registry for such a new series. We're looking into it. In the meantime, we will not be designating missing edge letters on any coins you submit to PCGS”. >>

No more designating missing edge letters? Glad I saved my pennies and didn’t get involved in collecting / buying them. But I think I would have to agree that these are ERRORS and not “Varieties”. What do you think?

commoncents05 · July 13, 2010 1:56AM

I agree they are errors, but I think they are a neat way to collect the series. For this to be done in a Registry Set, they would have to be designated as varieties. So, I think PCGS should continue slabbing them as varieties, and I think they would be shooting themselves in the foot if they didn't.

-Paul

BillJones · July 13, 2010 2:11AM

I would rather collect items like these. The quote came from Grant before the Battle of Spotsylvania when he served notice that he wasn’t going to continue the previous pattern of fighting a battle and then giving Lee a couple months to recuperate. This piece was piece was from the 1868 presidential campaign. This is one of the most common Grant items and sells for less than $100.

Or this. This large medalet (50mm) recalled the generous terms that Grant granted to Lee at Appomattox. This one is tougher, but no impossible. I paid less then $50 for it 20 years ago. Today it’s worth a couple hundred or so. "Let us have peace," was the major campaign slogan of the 1868 campaign.

wondercoin · July 13, 2010 2:12AM

The business strike Pres $1 coins are as tough to locate in high grade as Kennedy half Dollars, state quarters... you name it. It is a fabulous collection and one that can still be assembled the "old fashioned way" through searching thousands and thousands of coins looking for the one superb gem. I am a big fan of this set.

The entire concept of MEL, PEL and WEL needs to be re-examined by PCGS - I agree with what they are doing. I also agree that collectors did lose interest in pursuing these registry sets once the sets got flooded with new "varieties". There is probably a solution that will please most collectors. I have thoughts of some ideas while even writing this. I look forward to hearing about PCGS' decision.

Wondercoin

illini420 · July 13, 2010 2:26AM

I thought the whole position A vs. position B was a little too crazy for me, but to not designate a missing edge lettering coin at all??? seems weird. What are they going to do if we submit one? just put it in an undesignated holder???? or call it ungradable???

LindeDad · July 13, 2010 3:02AM

I started but could not make it past the second year just with the "First Day of Issue" then "Position A&B" then "Missing Edge Lettering" then "Satin Finish" then "Partial Edge Letering" then "Weak Edge Lettering" and that does not take into account the proofs. I have sold them all except my George Washington MEL and went with the Indian dollars only and only do those in business strike, satin finish and proof.

And the edge lettering failures should of been errors not varities IMO.

Silverstate · July 13, 2010 3:06AM

<< I agree they are errors, but I think they are a neat way to collect the series. For this to be done in a Registry Set, they would have to be designated as varieties. So, I think PCGS should continue slabbing them as varieties, and I think they would be shooting themselves in the foot if they didn't.

-Paul >>

PCGS needs to grade all varieties or errors with some consistancy and the problem will be resolved.

To not grade edge varieties now seems pretty much like someone pulling a temper tantrum over this.

Not to mention the many of us that are VERY invested in the series so far.

Please do not PULL THE PLUG now!

We are in the 4th year of the series and many of us have been at this for some time now.......BTW - 100's of coins later.........

2manycoins2fewfunds · July 13, 2010 3:49AM

The original 50,000-100,000 or so MEL GW coins were a unique event with a clearly documented history of how they occurred.........IMO these are a must have part of a presidential coin series

The doubled lettering Adams coins are well documented and cool in their own right.......a clear over reaction to the original GW MEL coins...........again IMO these are a must have part of a presidential coin series

I can't see why they would hesitate to slab these two examples.

The partial missing or weak lettering coins are a far, far more complicated area and a very slippery slope...........multiple possible mechanical causes........multiple variations............I can live without these.

This may be an unpopular opinion but the latter examples of MEL dollars that have surfaced after the edge lettering machine was intergrated into the production line are interesting and while identical to the original MEL coins they are also different at least in regards to how they occurred............they are more likely mechanical errors associated with mass production of a product rather than human error as were the original GW MEL.

Call me a purist but I see them as different yet admittedly identical in appearance.

As far as position A/B that is foolishness..........IMO stupidity, absolute stupidity.

FDI labels.............may have made a very little sense when requirement was they be submitted to PCGS postmarked on FDI...............lost all credibility when they started accepting sealed 1,000 coin bricks at anytime as long as mint sealed.

FS labels.........fill in your own comments...............

19Lyds · July 13, 2010 3:50AM

<< The business strike Pres $1 coins are as tough to locate in high grade as Kennedy half Dollars, state quarters... you name it. It is a fabulous collection and one that can still be assembled the "old fashioned way" through searching thousands and thousands of coins looking for the one superb gem. I am a big fan of this set.

The entire concept of MEL, PEL and WEL needs to be re-examined by PCGS - I agree with what they are doing. I also agree that collectors did lose interest in pursuing these registry sets once the sets got flooded with new "varieties". There is probably a solution that will please most collectors. I have thoughts of some ideas while even writing this. I look forward to hearing about PCGS' decision.

Wondercoin >>

(Full Screen)

I have read, somewhere, that the edge lettering machine has adjustments which, if too loose, would not letter the coins even though they went through the machine. Likewise, if the pressure is too tight, the coin rims get "dimpled" from too much pressure.

As for PCGS not designating missing edge lettering coins, of the three edge lettering variations the MEL is the easiest to distinguish so I really do not understand their position unless someone mis-attributed an altered coin. Partial and Weak are debatable due to PCGS's standards and microscopic examination. The microscope makes identifying these much easier due to light control issues but if the attributor uses a loupe, then a debate could arise. However, it was PCGS's decision to attribute these coins primarily due to the publicity surrounding the MEL Washington's. Why they want to stop now is a big question mark in my head.

Variety vs Error? Personally, I've never considered missing edge lettering to be a variety and the coins were initially attributed and graded as Mint Errors. This holds true for the other variants as well.

..

However, the coins did not receive Mint Error Coin Numbers but instead receive an new unique coin number. This enabled PCGS the flexibility to include them in Registry Sets as Varieties which really raised the possible numbers for each coin.

As for losing interest in the sets? The only thing that really bugged me about the sets was the inclusion of single pop coins.

As for the OP, I can;t help but wonder if this announcement is related to the Doubled Edge Lettering Overlap issue on the Registry forum?

illini420 · July 13, 2010 4:22AM

I could really care less if a MEL coin is required in a registry set, but to not certify the coin at all as an MEL (whether in an error or variety holder) just seems pretty weak as some folks will continue to collect these whether or not they are registry worthy and whether or not they are errors or varieties.

19Lyds · July 13, 2010 4:30AM

I agree but what I don't understand is why the other edge lettering varities/errors were not addressed?

This "Singling out" of the MEL coins instead of including all the variants has me very curious.

tahoe98 · July 13, 2010 4:51AM

...another good reason to stop minting edge lettered coins, are you reading this thread mr. moy?

MrEureka · July 13, 2010 5:19AM

PCGS is going to ignore the fact that a coin is missing its edge lettering because they can't figure out if it's a variety or if it's an error? Why not just call them what they are and let other people decide how they want to classify them?

19Lyds · July 13, 2010 7:05AM

<< PCGS is going to ignore the fact that a coin is missing its edge lettering because they can't figure out if it's a variety or if it's an error? Why not just call them what they are and let other people decide how they want to classify them? >>

Very Bizarre!

Silverstate · July 13, 2010 7:28AM

Presidential Dollars…varieties or mint errors? PCGS currently recognizes various types of “missing edge letters” versions of Presidential Dollars as major varieties. We need to review this series closely. There is a good argument that can be made that the various edge letters “varieties” are actually mint errors or striking variations and not true varieties. This would of course change the composition of many sets in the PCGS Set Registry. Another strong argument could be made that we have too many set variations in the Set Registry for such a new series. We’re looking into it. In the meantime, we will not be designating missing edge letters on any coins you submit to PCGS.

Well then PCGS best get rid of the A & B positions too while they are at it. Since they are also in the words of PCGS..... "Striking Variations and not true varieties".

Too many set variations..... This can take care of collecters with or without the "varieties"...excuse me, I mean "mint errors"

All of these edge varieties have been labeled "Mint Error" for several years now.
They stop that label and now they want to get rid of them?

IMHO:
If PCGS takes them away, it will cost the collectors a lot of money and the series will suffer from it.
As I see it, there is no upside at least for the collector if this change were to go into effect.

derryb · July 13, 2010 7:30AM

One more reason to take a look across the street.

19Lyds · July 13, 2010 7:33AM

<< Presidential Dollars…varieties or mint errors? PCGS currently recognizes various types of “missing edge letters” versions of Presidential Dollars as major varieties. We need to review this series closely. There is a good argument that can be made that the various edge letters “varieties” are actually mint errors or striking variations and not true varieties. This would of course change the composition of many sets in the PCGS Set Registry. Another strong argument could be made that we have too many set variations in the Set Registry for such a new series. We’re looking into it. In the meantime, we will not be designating missing edge letters on any coins you submit to PCGS.

Well then PCGS best get rid of the A & B positions too while they are at it. Since they are also in the words of PCGS..... "Striking Variations and not true varieties".

Too many set variations..... This can take care of collecters with or without the "varieties"...excuse me, I mean "mint errors"

All of these edge varieties have been labeled "Mint Error" for several years now.
They stop that label and now they want to get rid of them?

IMHO:
If PCGS takes them away, it will cost the collectors a lot of money and the series will suffer from it.
As I see it, there is no upside at least for the collector if this change were to go into effect. >>

See my "Picture Post". PCGS recognizes these as Mint Errors yet has numbered them for inclusion in the Complete "Variety" sets to more than likely increase interest. The only problem is that it's gotten out of control.

BTW, I replied to the email asking whether or not PCGS was ready to address the heavy investments folks have in these if this thing causes them to go south. I can understand taking a beating (like I have on the Adams Doubled Edge Lettering coins) due to a lack of marketability but not because my TPG decides to no longer recognize them!

THAT, would drive me away.

19Lyds · July 13, 2010 7:35AM

<< One more reason to take a look across the street.

>>

Not me.
The only possible reason I would have to go ATS is to look at population reports which now requires membership. Other than that, I have no reason to go.

Wait, I do have a registry set over there but that doesn;t count.

MsMorrisine · July 13, 2010 7:39AM

now that they mention it.... I am surprised they didn't start from the get go labelling the no edge lettering as errors with a E-error number designation. The same with partial/weak lettering.

the only varieties I can think of are the Lettering Up or Lettering Down... and ... ahem.... the differing fonts! (I'm still trying to find proof that there are different fonts used vs. the proposal that they are just different die states)

Since the labelling is already done on some, and there is a possibility some could find their way in with a bulk submission... I'd continue labelling until a decision has been made.

1tommy · July 13, 2010 8:04AM

well a friend of mine in s calif i sent to his bank because of reading about the weak edge lettering he picked up several rolls and calls me and tells me wow first roll i found about 7 or 8 so he submits all 8 at one of the local shows 7 come back weak edge lettering, he recently open 1 of the other rolls (last week) and told me he has found about 8 more where its missing every other letter or star, so i called pcgs and asked whats the difference between partial edge lettering and weak edge lettering and was told if you cannot see 1 or more of the letters or stars its a partial, so we talked about sending in these other. I guess will wait and see what happens have a few of these myself...............

Silverstate · July 13, 2010 8:43AM

The famous 3-legged buffalo is a variety/ mint error

Ron Guth: The 1937-D 3 Legs variety resulted from over-zealous polishing of a worn reverse die. The front foreleg was almost completely removed and the back leg developed a "moth-eaten" appearance (see image above). A diagnostic feature of this variety is the "stream" that appears beneath the bison's belly. If this feature is not present, beware of an altered coin.

So that is a damaged die that caused that error.....

I have seen edge lettering missing parts of letters and the response has been .... A Die chip...
OK, what is the difference except that it is edge lettering versus the obverse and/or reverse being affected

The edges are important parts of the Presidential Dollar coins. It has the Date and Mintmarks on all of the coins.
So discounting the edge lettering as anything "important" is wrong.

Oh and the 3-legged buffalo nickel has a place in the registry sets as well.

What about the 1922 D - Weak Mintmark Lincoln cent. Varies varieties of this coin....Registry sets require them in complete sets.

So, If a Presidential Dollar is missing its mintmark on the edge lettering or maybe only half there.
Isn't this the same thing?

Edge varieties add value to Capped Bust Halves as well.
And for those Bust halves missing edge lettering, there is a large premium.

Take a look at all of the Edge Lettering varieties in the Bust Halves.
Those complete sets need to be dismantled as well. Overton must have got it all wrong.....
I guess we can throw those varieties away as well. Since it just "Edge Lettering"

OK....I am just making a point.

Yes, We have lots of Edge Varieties to deal with in the Presidential Dollar sets.

But as for the Presidential Dollar series as in the Bust half series. You can collect the Edge Varieties or not.
Let the collector collect what they like.
But, you can't just sweep edge varieties under the rug like they don't exist.

coppercoins · July 13, 2010 9:35AM

Technically the missing letters dollars, the 1922 no-D cent, AND the three legged buffalo are ALL errors - none of them are varieties.

19Lyds · July 13, 2010 9:41AM

<< well a friend of mine in s calif i sent to his bank because of reading about the weak edge lettering he picked up several rolls and calls me and tells me wow first roll i found about 7 or 8 so he submits all 8 at one of the local shows 7 come back weak edge lettering, he recently open 1 of the other rolls (last week) and told me he has found about 8 more where its missing every other letter or star, so i called pcgs and asked whats the difference between partial edge lettering and weak edge lettering and was told if you cannot see 1 or more of the letters or stars its a partial, so we talked about sending in these other. I guess will wait and see what happens have a few of these myself............... >>

Understand that the email ONLY mentioned Missing Edge Lettering so it can only be assumed that Weak Edge Lettering and Partial Edge Lettering are still be attributed.

Silverstate · July 13, 2010 9:59AM

<< 

<< well a friend of mine in s calif i sent to his bank because of reading about the weak edge lettering he picked up several rolls and calls me and tells me wow first roll i found about 7 or 8 so he submits all 8 at one of the local shows 7 come back weak edge lettering, he recently open 1 of the other rolls (last week) and told me he has found about 8 more where its missing every other letter or star, so i called pcgs and asked whats the difference between partial edge lettering and weak edge lettering and was told if you cannot see 1 or more of the letters or stars its a partial, so we talked about sending in these other. I guess will wait and see what happens have a few of these myself............... >>

Understand that the email ONLY mentioned Missing Edge Lettering so it can only be assumed that Weak Edge Lettering and Partial Edge Lettering are still be attributed. >>

Lee,
I hear a rumor of an Adams Satin MEL that was holdered..but you could see edge lettering on it.
Maybe this one is making PCGS nervous.... this was just a grading error! <---- :-)

Seems like MEL's are pretty easy to identify.

19Lyds · July 13, 2010 10:02AM

<< Technically the missing letters dollars, the 1922 no-D cent, AND the three legged buffalo are ALL errors - none of them are varieties. >>

This could go either way but my opinion is that if the boo boo occurs on the die then it could be considered a variety but if the boo boo occurs on the planchet then its an error.

Certainly, creating a doubled image on a die is an error at the die shop so would the coins produced from that die be considered errors?
Certainly, over abrading the die to erase a clash (which is a minting error) at the die shop was doine in error so are the coins produced from that die also errors?

Whatever.

PCGS chose to attribute the MEL coins as errors yet also make it possible to put them in the registry. To stop at this point in time seems bizarre to say the least.

19Lyds · July 13, 2010 10:05AM

<< 

<< 

<< well a friend of mine in s calif i sent to his bank because of reading about the weak edge lettering he picked up several rolls and calls me and tells me wow first roll i found about 7 or 8 so he submits all 8 at one of the local shows 7 come back weak edge lettering, he recently open 1 of the other rolls (last week) and told me he has found about 8 more where its missing every other letter or star, so i called pcgs and asked whats the difference between partial edge lettering and weak edge lettering and was told if you cannot see 1 or more of the letters or stars its a partial, so we talked about sending in these other. I guess will wait and see what happens have a few of these myself............... >>

Understand that the email ONLY mentioned Missing Edge Lettering so it can only be assumed that Weak Edge Lettering and Partial Edge Lettering are still be attributed. >>

Lee,
I hear a rumor of an Adams Satin MEL that was holdered..but you could see edge lettering on it.
Maybe this one is making PCGS nervous.... this was just a grading error! <---- :-)

Seems like MEL's are pretty easy to identify. >>

Just like Double Edge Lettering Overlaps?

Silverstate · July 13, 2010 10:11AM

<< Seems like MEL's are pretty easy to identify. >>

Just like Double Edge Lettering Overlaps?

>>

I totally agree.

Silverstate · July 13, 2010 10:23AM

<< Technically the missing letters dollars, the 1922 no-D cent, AND the three legged buffalo are ALL errors - none of them are varieties. >>

Coppercoins,

But all of these are included in Registry sets presently.

Not to mention the loads of RPM's ect.

Really Errors or Varieties, it's just a name.

Should they all be in registry sets...... Yes

At least in the complete sets, then based on whether they are MAJOR or minor they can be in the Major Sets as well.

airplanenut · July 13, 2010 10:25AM

<< Technically the missing letters dollars, the 1922 no-D cent, AND the three legged buffalo are ALL errors - none of them are varieties. >>

My understanding was that a variety is the same problem on multiple coins due to a problem with the die. For instance, the buffalo's leg was missing on the die, and therefore on every coin it struck. For the no edge lettering pieces, the problem is not in the die, but the process which allowed the coin to be released while not "completed," much the same way a blank planchet is an error.

19Lyds · July 13, 2010 10:27AM

<< 

<< Technically the missing letters dollars, the 1922 no-D cent, AND the three legged buffalo are ALL errors - none of them are varieties. >>

My understanding was that a variety is the same problem on multiple coins due to a problem with the die. For instance, the buffalo's leg was missing on the die, and therefore on every coin it struck. For the no edge lettering pieces, the problem is not in the die, but the process which allowed the coin to be released while not "completed," much the same way a blank planchet is an error. >>

Thats debatable Jeremy since the edge lettering machine is fully adjustable and some speculation has been presented that a mis-adjustment in the machine will cause it to spit out MEL coins such as the Satin Finish MEL's.

I don;t remember where I read this.

Caleb · July 13, 2010 11:26AM

I don’t mean to throw a “wet blanket” on anyone but shouldn’t the RULES stated in the Registry be consistent and evenly applied to all denominations and sets within the Registry?

<< Mint Errors

PCGS grades some coins through the Mint Error program. These are coins such as planchet clips and off-metal strikings that have been unintentionally struck by the Mint. Mint errors are designated by an "E" in front of the coin number on the PCGS holder insert. Mint errors can be added to "My Inventory" and the Collectors Showcase, but cannot be used in competitive sets.
>>

Shouldn’t it be that it either “is” or “is not”. Why no “E” in front of the PCGS coin number that 19Lyds posted?

cmerlo1 · July 13, 2010 11:30AM

The edge of the coin is the third side. Therefore, to me, the edge lettering types are errors. We would classify a coin as an error if it were missing either or both of the other two sides- why should a missing or misstruck third side be any different?

Silverstate · July 13, 2010 11:50AM

<< I don’t mean to throw a “wet blanket” on anyone but shouldn’t the RULES stated in the Registry be consistent and evenly applied to all denominations and sets within the Registry?

<< Mint Errors

PCGS grades some coins through the Mint Error program. These are coins such as planchet clips and off-metal strikings that have been unintentionally struck by the Mint. Mint errors are designated by an "E" in front of the coin number on the PCGS holder insert. Mint errors can be added to "My Inventory" and the Collectors Showcase, but cannot be used in competitive sets.
>>

Shouldn’t it be that it either “is” or “is not”. Why no “E” in front of the PCGS coin number that 19Lyds posted?

>>

Caleb,

Clipped planchets are not the same as MEL's

Kennedy Halves have a decent amount of "Mint Errors" as well.
It would not be nice to pull all of them either....

So with that line of reasoning, if it was unintentional by the mint..... it can't be a part of a registry set???
I would have to disagree.

Check out this "Merrill Collection" of Overton Variety Bust Halves...... The did not call them MELs back then, just "Plain Edge"
Merrill Collection of Overton Varity Halves

What would the point of taking away all of the "Mint Errors" from that collection be?

Bochiman · July 13, 2010 12:43PM

<< Presidential Dollars…varieties or mint errors? .......(clipped)

IMHO:
If PCGS takes them away, it will cost the collectors a lot of money and the series will suffer from it.
As I see it, there is no upside at least for the collector if this change were to go into effect. >>

And, this, is why, while I enjoy the registry, I wouldn't even think about sinking a ton of money to compete in areas like this.
"Varities"/"errors" may be fun, but, imho, they shouldn't be considered for a full set.....they are like "extra credit" back in school. A full set can be 100% without them, and they are just a bonus (ie....maybe a 55/55 DDO lincoln in place of a regular 55 lincoln with some adjustment on points...no need to have both).

Any "collector" that is going to be financially hurt by this really makes me shake my head.......I just don't understand why anyone buys into coins/registry without being "ok" if things end up going to face value (going to the extreme here as I would never expect it to go all the way down, nor would I want it to, but if something loses value, well, that is just like the stock market, eh?)

MsMorrisine · July 13, 2010 1:04PM

<< I have seen edge lettering missing parts of letters and the response has been .... A Die chip.... >>

as a dollar searcher... been doing it off and on just from 1 bank's inventory of 2010 NAs and Pierces for the past maybe 3 weeks alone...

I have seen some stars where I thought "missing a point. that's WEL."

Then I take a closer look and the missing point doesn't fade out; it's simply not there. Also, where it "arm and point" connects to the "body," the star has a concave curved portion of the body missing, too.

Then I think "broken die."

I would caution anyone looking at WEL coins, to consider if perhaps it is a broken die.

For MEL, well... I guess they could go either way, huh? But, If a coin is missing every other letter and the letters present are fully struck on a properly curved planchet... well I'd bet on a broken die first.

but... I also a beginner.

clackamas · July 13, 2010 1:30PM

Get rid of the position A and B designations first.

Bochiman · July 13, 2010 1:57PM

<< Get rid of the position A and B designations first. >>

Yeah....that one was really whacked to learn they were slabbing based on that.

SullivanNumismatics · July 13, 2010 2:29PM

They're more an error than a variety. It's comparable to a planchet which was never struck by the dies (on its obverse or reverse.) Is a planchet considered an error? Yes, even though there is nothing "wrong" with the planchet-it was how the Mint intended it to be, except it wasn't struck by the dies. But, since it left the Mint in a state other than what was intended by the Mint, it is considered an error, which is how the missing edge lettering coins are.

That aside, PCGS should NOT stop noting the missing edge lettering on the coins. Just call them "missing edge lettering" and let the market sort out what to do with the coins!

Jon

Silverstate · July 13, 2010 2:57PM

NGC & Anacs designates them.

PCGS should continue designating the Missing Edge Lettering coins as well.

As for getting "hurt"...It is all relative.

If my Gold spouse coins were worth $50 each tomorrow.
Yes, that would hurt.

And If my Lincoln Cents went down to 2c piece.....Ouch!
That would be rough.

Likewise if my Pres Collection hit the skids... Mega Ouch!

Yes, could still eat for awhile. I have at least a brick of graded edge variety/mint errors....

Just in PCGS grading fees alone, it's alot of money.

So a collector being "hurt" is all relative.

I'm a dealer as well and taking a hit is what we do at times.

My coins are not pulling food out of my mouth, but I would rather they were not the bottom less pit!

Griv · July 13, 2010 3:03PM

You all are missing the REAL SOLUTION. Get rid of the STUPID edge lettering. I can't read it even with my reading glasses. Another stupid British fad gone wrong.

I hate the stupid series. I hate it I say!

Silverstate · July 13, 2010 3:17PM

Griv,

It's like spoonful of sugar. It helps the medicine go down.

Congress passed it and we are destined to have mountains of these gold dollars for at least another 6 years.

I wish sugar could fix more than this.

I guess they could get rid of edge lettering and put the date back onto the obverse.

But that might be too simple of a solution.

wondercoin · July 13, 2010 4:49PM

Why aren't the position A and B coins two of the "purest" varieties as opposed to errors? No mistake was made by the US Mint in the creation of position A and B rim lettering... these seem like the easiest coins to call varieties as opposed to errors of the coins being discussed here.

I believe there are MANY solutions to PCGS handling the MEL, WEL, PEL coins. I hope PCGS continues to carefully evaluate all the alternatives.

Wondercoin

BXBOY143 · July 13, 2010 6:16PM

Griv · July 13, 2010 6:31PM

I have a TON of them. PM me with a quote for a 100 pound lot. Makes a great footer for any garden wall.

MrEureka · July 13, 2010 9:29PM

Why aren't the position A and B coins two of the "purest" varieties as opposed to errors? No mistake was made by the US Mint in the creation of position A and B rim lettering... these seem like the easiest coins to call varieties as opposed to errors of the coins being discussed here.

"Variety" is a classification that traditionally refers to a distinctly different die. I see no reason to expand the definition at this point.

Also, numismatists have never considered A and B positions worthy of designation on lettered edge coins in the past. Why should Presidential Dollars be any different? And really, if it weren't for the TPG inserts, would anyone care enough about A and B positions to want to collect them? I doubt it, and certainly wouldn't want to force them on registry collectors.

2manycoins2fewfunds · July 13, 2010 11:49PM

Everything else to the side for a moment...........

Does anyone really give a rat's a** whether it is position A or B??

It would make just as much sense to slab coins depending on positioning of edge lettering in relation to obverse/reverse positioning.

Then we could have A or B with 360 different 1 degree positioning variations.

720 different slabs to collect!!

cmerlo1 · July 14, 2010 12:44AM

I can't believe, after all the posts on the forums, that the definitions of error and variety are still so gray to so many people. It has nothing to do with whether it's a mistake by the mint or not.

VARIETY- refers to something that affects the DIE. An example of an edge-lettering variety would be if a letter was somehow missing from the die that presses the letters into the edge. Every coin produced by it would show this.

ERROR- refers to something that affects the COIN during its manufacturing process. The missing edge lettering occured because the coin missed a step in the process. The doubled lettering occured because the coin went through the edge lettering process twice.

Also- IMO, the 'Position A' and 'Position B' designations are one of the most ridiculous things I've seen PCGS designate. We have 1971-D Ike Dollars with a pattern reverse that PCGS won't designate, but they'll note which way a presidential dollar was facing when it came out of the bin and went through the edge lettering machine? Makes no sense to me.

Silverstate · July 14, 2010 12:46AM

Well the only positive in not having A & B varieties...

The sets would shrink by 50%......

Everyone would have 2 sets each!

wondercoin · July 14, 2010 2:15AM

"Also, numismatists have never considered A and B positions worthy of designation on lettered edge coins in the past. Why should Presidential Dollars be any different?"

Andy: I understand your point, but how many other US coins "in the past" had their date and mintmark for example "upside down" vs. "right-side up" on the coin? How many other coins are you comparing this to?

"Variety" itself is defined as "a collection of varied things". "Varied" is defined as "diverse". 'Diverse" is defined as differing from one another". I guess from the strict definition of "variety", any of these coins would fit the definition? So, you suggest the "standard of the industry" definition of "variety" should control and, once again, I understand your point. But, when PCGS decided on position A and B for the Pres $1's, I was not as taken back as you (in fact, I decided along with my kids to also collect the coins that way, as many folks did) . Was the numismatic definition of "variety" possibly expanding a bit due to these interesting circumstances? Perhaps. Can you also think of some other coins in the registry in the other coin series that, likewise, also got 'variety" status when they might not meet the strictest numismatic definition?

And, I am not at all advocating here the continuation of position A/B for these coins. I am undecided at the moment on whether it, indeed, does make sense to drop that designation all together and cut the required coins in half for the collection.

Wondercoin

Coinsponge · July 14, 2010 2:40AM

I think you can take the issue of varieties too far as they have done that with the A/B designation. If you create so many varieties out of questionable differences you threaten to overwhelm collectors with so much minutia that it leads them to the conclusion that the whole hobby is an exercise in nuttyness. We in the hobby have to make sure that the tv coin marketers don't hijack the hobby and turn it into a circus for the sake of their highter profits. Those guys will push any concept if there is money in it, no matter what it does to the hobby. I hope PCGS, as the gatekeepers of the hobby so to speak, will resist the temptation to go to the ridiculous for the sake of the tv marketers even if the money is better.

To be fair, I am not sure if it was the tv guys specifically who got this going but I suspect if was someone who was profit motivated. Just my suspicion.

19Lyds · July 14, 2010 2:55AM

It's my opinion that PCGS settled on Position A and Position B to "normalize" the orientation of the lettering since folks were getting ripped off by eBay sellers claiming that the upside down lettering was an "error".

It does not matter to me whether these two orientations are recognized or not, however the edge lettering itself is something different and the Overton and VAM Boys have laid the ground for considering these coins as varieties. Whether they are Mint Errors or not does not really matter simply because they are collected as Varieties.

Sure glad that I never got collecting these Presidential Dollars

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