Trying to be nice about the political correctness - I think my point seems entirely missed in that a bag can be subjected to chemicals/substances, gas or liquid that can AT the included coins.
I say PC because IMO there are such blatant ATs that automatically get the moos of the herd as "NT", don't go there with the Battle Creek coins.
PS - presumably coins in the bag are oriented randomly with obv. or rev. up so that toning should occur roughly equally to each side so can not see the point put up by BF that it is seen on reverse or that the obverse would be the money side.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
"presumably coins in the bag are oriented randomly with obv. or rev. up so that toning should occur roughly equally to each side so can not see the point put up by BF that it is seen on reverse or that the obverse would be the money side." I believe his point to be that if you were intentionally toning a coin you would do the obverse or both sides not just the reverse. The obverse is more important on a coin wrt garding and value hence he uses the term "money side". Since this coin is only reverse toned it logically has a better chance of being natural toning.
<< <i>Trying to be nice about the political correctness - I think my point seems entirely missed in that a bag can be subjected to chemicals/substances, gas or liquid that can AT the included coins.
I say PC because IMO there are such blatant ATs that automatically get the moos of the herd as "NT", don't go there with the Battle Creek coins.
PS - presumably coins in the bag are oriented randomly with obv. or rev. up so that toning should occur roughly equally to each side so can not see the point put up by BF that it is seen on reverse or that the obverse would be the money side. >>
There is no way for anyone to know from any given bag how many coins from that bag were toned on the reverse or the obverse; tho it is dumb luck or 50:50 that it will be one side or the other. If you watch TeleTrade listings much, it is a given that nice obverse toners bring more money than do reverse toned coins, esp Morgans. Therefore if you are going to AT a coin, do it on the obverse. There are no pop reports for toners so who would really know if 5,000 new obverse toners trickled into the market.
Are you implying too that entire bags of Morgans [like the BC hoard] were intentionally placed into toning atmospheres or gassed in the bag? If that were true, how would you know when to stop so the coins don't turn black? I assume the bags were mint sealed and unopened.
<< <i>Trying to be nice about the political correctness - I think my point seems entirely missed in that a bag can be subjected to chemicals/substances, gas or liquid that can AT the included coins.
I say PC because IMO there are such blatant ATs that automatically get the moos of the herd as "NT", don't go there with the Battle Creek coins.
PS - presumably coins in the bag are oriented randomly with obv. or rev. up so that toning should occur roughly equally to each side so can not see the point put up by BF that it is seen on reverse or that the obverse would be the money side. >>
Please show us images of just a few of those "such blatant ATs that automatically get the moos of the herd". I promise I wont moo too loudly or for too long. And even if you really believe that there are many AT Morgan Dollar from toning them artificially through bags, why aren't there more better/rare dates and/or obverse toned ones that aren't toned through bags?
Coinguy, IMO the very Battle Creek coins themselves should be stars of the AT brigade. And to put the shoe on the other foot, please cite auction photos from prior to 20 years ago that featured neon toning.
Don' t recall any Eliasberg coins (well the collection at least dated to prior to 20 years ago) or Norweb specimens that featured such, and as I recall Norwebs were not immune to picking up exotica of such ilk since it was checkbook collecting - not hating on them, esp the British sections.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
I have a copy of the 1982 edition of "The Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook" by Wayne Miller, and page 46 happens to contain quite a few examples of the neon toned Morgan dollars. Miller has opened many a bag, and I'd take his experience over others that say AT for the sake of saying AT. I've seen neon toned examples myself from coin shows from the late 70's on, though they were pretty scarce. Maybe all of them weren't NT, but chances were higher that they were. Granted, there are many bad AT examples out there today, but I don't think the coin in the OP is one of them.
And to second the other sentiments on here - yes, please show us some neon examples of dates like the 1896-O, 1903-O, 1892-S, hell even a 1921-S Morgan.
Coinguy, IMO the very Battle Creek coins themselves should be stars of the AT brigade. And to put the shoe on the other foot, please cite auction photos from prior to 20 years ago that featured neon toning.
Don' t recall any Eliasberg coins (well the collection at least dated to prior to 20 years ago) or Norweb specimens that featured such, and as I recall Norwebs were not immune to picking up exotica of such ilk since it was checkbook collecting - not hating on them, esp the British sections. >>
You made the claim, so should be willing to back it up. And to be fair, that - providing images of recent examples of "such blatant ATs that automatically get the moos of the herd as "NT" - should be much easier for you, than my going back and locating images from 20 years ago.
That aside, while I don't have (and care to look for) auction photos from 20 years ago, I have been in the business full time since 1979. And I remember seeing a good number of neon toned Morgan dollars from mint bags, some of which I was present for at their opening, and bought. Finally, the fact that certain collections don't contain examples of them is irrelevant.
Edited to add: As for the battle Creek coins - it might not mean anything to you, but it means something to me, when a dealer like Mike De Falco, who is probably about as experienced as anyone in handling toned Morgan Dollars, was a big buyer of the coins. Even had he not been, however, I would not have questioned their originality.
I will take the knowledge and experience of dealers like him and collectors (like poster Sunnywood, who also has a background in chemistry) over the opinions of those who make pronouncements, without any sound basis that I am aware of.
<< <i>I have been in the business full time since 1979. >>
That's some distance of ground. Perhaps you'd be willing to share with us some of your experienced insights into just why you believe this beloved hobby of ours is in this mess, today. I mean, if it's not too much to ask...
<< <i>I have been in the business full time since 1979. >>
That's some distance of ground. Perhaps you'd be willing to share with us some of your experienced insights into just why you believe this beloved hobby of ours is in this mess, today. I mean, if it's not too much to ask... >>
Our hobby is not in a mess. The problem of doctored coins is indeed a problem, but it does not plague numismatics as badly as some people would have you believe. Numismatic publications have greatly sensationalized the issues surrounding chinese counterfeits. Etc etc, I could go on for a while. If the hobby is in such a pile of slop, why did coins hold their value better than most other assets throughout the entire economic downturn?
There was recently a select group of Morgan dollars discovered that were artificially toned in a way which closely resembled bag toned Morgans. The coins were in PCGS holders and fooled almost everybody. However, that does not mean every coin that resembles a bag toned Morgan is AT. And 99% of the time, coins that have this look are still considered natural. If you don't believe this coin at least has the pattern of a bag toned Morgan, you need to reexamine what you think you know.
And to people who say that this type of color can be "easily duplicated," you have no idea what you're talking about.
I disagree and this toning can. Exposure of the surface of the coin to metallic oxides with heat has apparently been accomplished that gives these resullts. I think it would take the coin doctors doing it to give their secrets and guess that will not happen soon. I would be more than glad to experiment if you will send me a couple of hundred unc. Morgans and a laundry list of metals.
Just because a dealer says a bag was pristene somehow does not make it for me at all - money to be made changes judgements and pronouncements. Profit & money will definately excuse those making money on such from judgements about their products.
Meanwhile the dearth of auction records really is a problem for these type of coins/products in terms of provenence. I do seem to recall Miller's book showing some and that was the vanguard of these products. There obviously should not be such a problem producing them if in fact such were available in mint sealed bags for all these years with countless tens of thousands of bags having been opened.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>And to people who say that this type of color can be "easily duplicated," you have no idea what you're talking about. >>
Ah, the blind exuberance of youth. Listen, you just go right on believing that, you hear? I'm sure there are a lot of doctor-dealers out there who are dependent on it. In the meantime, as for my question, I was rather hoping it could have been replied to by someone with a tad more experience and background under their belt, such as Mark Feld; I mean, if you don't mind getting out of the way, respectfully. Thanks.
<< <i>I disagree and this toning can. Exposure of the surface of the coin to metallic oxides with heat has apparently been accomplished that gives these resullts. I think it would take the coin doctors doing it to give their secrets and guess that will not happen soon. I would be more than glad to experiment if you will send me a couple of hundred unc. Morgans and a laundry list of metals. >>
Liver of sulfur is their only "secret." They do it in combination with heat, as you say. Add a dash of ammonia, and the colors become more vibrant. Jewelers have been using the technique for centuries to oxidize silver jewelry. There, that's their "proprietary advantage," I just stripped them of it.
<< <i>I disagree and this toning can. Exposure of the surface of the coin to metallic oxides with heat has apparently been accomplished that gives these resullts. I think it would take the coin doctors doing it to give their secrets and guess that will not happen soon. I would be more than glad to experiment if you will send me a couple of hundred unc. Morgans and a laundry list of metals. >>
Liver of sulfur is their only "secret." They do it in combination with heat, as you say. Add a dash of ammonia, and the colors become more vibrant. Jewelers have been using the technique for centuries to oxidize silver jewelry. There, that's their "proprietary advantage," I just stripped them of it. >>
Ill say it again, Sulfer is a common chemical that is used to AT coins but it is also a hard chemical to control. Applying it via a wet method will never i mean never give you that result. Even in a gasing form it is hard to control and will still only produce certain colors. It also tends to make coins develope carbon spots and gives the toning a smokey appearance. I will also add that you will ruin many coins using this method before you get one that will look convincing. I still have a nickel that was done most likely via the gasing method if anyone wants to see it.
<< <i>Ill say it again, Sulfer is a common chemical that is used to AT coins but it is also a hard chemical to control. Applying it via a wet method will never i mean never give you that result. Even in a gasing form it is hard to control and will still only produce certain colors. It also tends to make coins develope carbon spots and gives the toning a smokey appearance. I will also add that you will ruin many coins using this method before you get one that will look convincing. I still have a nickel that was done most likely via the gasing method if anyone wants to see it. >>
Djdilliodon, for the record, I heard you the first time around. Let's get past that issue, for now. We can go back to it, later, if you want. I have a question. I was wondering how a GSA Morgan Dollar gets "rainbow toned," so to speak, while in the GSA slab. If you have any theories on that, I'd like to know what you think. Thanks.
<< <i>Ill say it again, Sulfer is a common chemical that is used to AT coins but it is also a hard chemical to control. Applying it via a wet method will never i mean never give you that result. Even in a gasing form it is hard to control and will still only produce certain colors. It also tends to make coins develope carbon spots and gives the toning a smokey appearance. I will also add that you will ruin many coins using this method before you get one that will look convincing. I still have a nickel that was done most likely via the gasing method if anyone wants to see it. >>
Djdilliodon, for the record, I heard you the first time around. Let's get past that issue, for now. We can go back to it, later, if you want. I have a question. I was wondering how a GSA Morgan Dollar gets "rainbow toned," so to speak, while in the GSA slab. If you have any theories on that, I'd like to know what you think. Thanks. >>
To my knowledge GSA dollars toned before entering the holders from mint bags stored by the government. Someone correct me if im wrong on that since i do not collect morgans but collect other toned coins such as washingtons and franklins. To answer your question though how a coin will tone in a holder is easy enough. Ever see proof coins or business struck coins in capital plastic screw down holders toned? You may think how can they tone being in there. Those holders just like the slabbed coins from the third party graders are not air tight. Where collectors stored those holders ect can play a role in the toning of the coins but the main causes in the air that will tone a coin in those holders is small amounts of hydrogen sulfide, small traces of sulfer, and other air impurities.
<< <i>Ill say it again, Sulfer is a common chemical that is used to AT coins but it is also a hard chemical to control. Applying it via a wet method will never i mean never give you that result. Even in a gasing form it is hard to control and will still only produce certain colors. It also tends to make coins develope carbon spots and gives the toning a smokey appearance. I will also add that you will ruin many coins using this method before you get one that will look convincing. I still have a nickel that was done most likely via the gasing method if anyone wants to see it. >>
Djdilliodon, for the record, I heard you the first time around. Let's get past that issue, for now. We can go back to it, later, if you want. I have a question. I was wondering how a GSA Morgan Dollar gets "rainbow toned," so to speak, while in the GSA slab. If you have any theories on that, I'd like to know what you think. Thanks. >>
To my knowledge GSA dollars toned before entering the holders from mint bags stored by the government. Someone correct me if im wrong on that since i do not collect morgans but collect other toned coins such as washingtons and franklins. To answer your question though how a coin will tone in a holder is easy enough. Ever see proof coins or business struck coins in capital plastic screw down holders toned? You may think how can they tone being in there. Those holders just like the slabbed coins from the third party graders are not air tight. Where collectors stored those holders ect can play a role in the toning of the coins but the main causes in the air that will tone a coin in those holders is small amounts of hydrogen sulfide, small traces of sulfer, and other air impurities. >>
It is also my impression that, for the most part, GSA Dollars were already toned when placed into those holders.
<< <i>To my knowledge GSA dollars toned before entering the holders from mint bags stored by the government. Someone correct me if im wrong on that since i do not collect morgans but collect other toned coins such as washingtons and franklins. To answer your question though how a coin will tone in a holder is easy enough. Ever see proof coins or business struck coins in capital plastic screw down holders toned? You may think how can they tone being in there. Those holders just like the slabbed coins from the third party graders are not air tight. Where collectors stored those holders ect can play a role in the toning of the coins but the main causes in the air that will tone a coin in those holders is small amounts of hydrogen sulfide, small traces of sulfer, and other air impurities. >>
I've seen silver tableware that had been polished then stored away in the box only to come out oxidized decades later. I guess that's one of the reasons air-tite holders for our coins are such big business. I guess it doesn't take much at all to tone these, you're saying, once they're exposed to the right environment.
<< <i>To my knowledge GSA dollars toned before entering the holders from mint bags stored by the government. Someone correct me if im wrong on that since i do not collect morgans but collect other toned coins such as washingtons and franklins. To answer your question though how a coin will tone in a holder is easy enough. Ever see proof coins or business struck coins in capital plastic screw down holders toned? You may think how can they tone being in there. Those holders just like the slabbed coins from the third party graders are not air tight. Where collectors stored those holders ect can play a role in the toning of the coins but the main causes in the air that will tone a coin in those holders is small amounts of hydrogen sulfide, small traces of sulfer, and other air impurities. >>
I've seen silver tableware that had been polished then stored away in the box only to come out oxidized decades later. I guess that's one of the reasons air-tite holders for our coins are such big business. I guess it doesn't take much at all to tone these, you're saying, once they're exposed to the right environment. >>
In the right environment and with time coins will tone especially for silver and more so copper. The key factor though is time and even if a coin is subject to all of the above doesnt mean the end result will always be good. Many will tone ugly just some will turn out to be nice ones My guess is the silverware you saw that tarnished turned black? Fresh polished metal is even more reactive if you ask me.
<< <i>I disagree and this toning can. Exposure of the surface of the coin to metallic oxides with heat has apparently been accomplished that gives these resullts. I think it would take the coin doctors doing it to give their secrets and guess that will not happen soon. I would be more than glad to experiment if you will send me a couple of hundred unc. Morgans and a laundry list of metals.
I do seem to recall Miller's book showing some and that was the vanguard of these products. There obviously should not be such a problem producing them if in fact such were available in mint sealed bags for all these years with countless tens of thousands of bags having been opened. >>
That would be easy enough to prove by ESCA/XPS analysis if one was so inclined. If metal oxides were used, it would be simple enough to find out just which ones were employed.
Keep in mind that many many toners were dipped in the past as customers greatly preferred white coins. Also, a lot of the best ones are in strong hands. I would aso venture to guess that those with the most "hands on" expertise will tell you that the number of really nice toners in a 1,000 coin bag was probably very small.
<< <i>Ill say it again, Sulfer is a common chemical that is used to AT coins but it is also a hard chemical to control. Applying it via a wet method will never i mean never give you that result. Even in a gasing form it is hard to control and will still only produce certain colors. It also tends to make coins develope carbon spots and gives the toning a smokey appearance. I will also add that you will ruin many coins using this method before you get one that will look convincing. I still have a nickel that was done most likely via the gasing method if anyone wants to see it. >>
Djdilliodon, for the record, I heard you the first time around. Let's get past that issue, for now. We can go back to it, later, if you want. I have a question. I was wondering how a GSA Morgan Dollar gets "rainbow toned," so to speak, while in the GSA slab. If you have any theories on that, I'd like to know what you think. Thanks. >>
To my knowledge GSA dollars toned before entering the holders from mint bags stored by the government. Someone correct me if im wrong on that since i do not collect morgans but collect other toned coins such as washingtons and franklins. To answer your question though how a coin will tone in a holder is easy enough. Ever see proof coins or business struck coins in capital plastic screw down holders toned? You may think how can they tone being in there. Those holders just like the slabbed coins from the third party graders are not air tight. Where collectors stored those holders ect can play a role in the toning of the coins but the main causes in the air that will tone a coin in those holders is small amounts of hydrogen sulfide, small traces of sulfer, and other air impurities. >>
It is also my impression that, for the most part, GSA Dollars were already toned when placed into those holders. >>
I believe that is correct Mark. Also IIRC, the really ugly blackened and greenish ones were withheld from the sale.
<< <i>I disagree and this toning can. Exposure of the surface of the coin to metallic oxides with heat has apparently been accomplished that gives these resullts. I think it would take the coin doctors doing it to give their secrets and guess that will not happen soon. I would be more than glad to experiment if you will send me a couple of hundred unc. Morgans and a laundry list of metals. >>
Liver of sulfur is their only "secret." They do it in combination with heat, as you say. Add a dash of ammonia, and the colors become more vibrant. Jewelers have been using the technique for centuries to oxidize silver jewelry. There, that's their "proprietary advantage," I just stripped them of it. >>
Wow, sounds like you have "messed around" with AT'ing coins. Do you have any examples to post? Possibly any AT Morgans that look "just like" the toner in this thread? thanks
But I'm declaring it to be AT because I don't see the shadow effect, sorry forgot the technical term.
Herb >>
I don't believe Herb that the absence of the shadow effect is necessarily hard proof that the coin is AT. I have any number of similar toned coins in PCGS holders that don't have the effect, including these two which toning guru Mike De Falco [coingame2000 here] says that he knows firsthand came from a sealed bag.
<< <i>I disagree and this toning can. Exposure of the surface of the coin to metallic oxides with heat has apparently been accomplished that gives these resullts. I think it would take the coin doctors doing it to give their secrets and guess that will not happen soon. I would be more than glad to experiment if you will send me a couple of hundred unc. Morgans and a laundry list of metals. >>
Liver of sulfur is their only "secret." They do it in combination with heat, as you say. Add a dash of ammonia, and the colors become more vibrant. Jewelers have been using the technique for centuries to oxidize silver jewelry. There, that's their "proprietary advantage," I just stripped them of it. >>
Wow, sounds like you have "messed around" with AT'ing coins. Do you have any examples to post? Possibly any AT Morgans that look "just like" the toner in this thread? thanks >>
That's one hell of an assumption, my friend. Why don't you wrap your small mind around this. Were I a "coin doctor," why would I give up my trade secret to a pigeon like you?
But I'm declaring it to be AT because I don't see the shadow effect, sorry forgot the technical term.
Herb >>
I don't believe Herb that the absence of the shadow effect is necessarily hard proof that the coin is AT. I have any number of similar toned coins in PCGS holders that don't have the effect, including these two which toning guru Mike De Falco [coingame2000 here] says that he knows firsthand came from a sealed bag.
>>
I agree on that as well. The shadow effect is not a solid tell tale sign that a coin is NT. Same goes for when a coin tones over the devices and fields instead of just the fields.
<< <i>I have been in the business full time since 1979. >>
That's some distance of ground. Perhaps you'd be willing to share with us some of your experienced insights into just why you believe this beloved hobby of ours is in this mess, today. I mean, if it's not too much to ask... >>
There was recently a select group of Morgan dollars discovered that were artificially toned in a way which closely resembled bag toned Morgans. The coins were in PCGS holders and fooled almost everybody. However, that does not mean every coin that resembles a bag toned Morgan is AT. And 99% of the time, coins that have this look are still considered natural. If you don't believe this coin at least has the pattern of a bag toned Morgan, you need to reexamine what you think you know.
And to people who say that this type of color can be "easily duplicated," you have no idea what you're talking about. >>
I'd love to see some of those if someone could post pix here. That is the first I have heard of them.
<< <i>I disagree and this toning can. Exposure of the surface of the coin to metallic oxides with heat has apparently been accomplished that gives these resullts. I think it would take the coin doctors doing it to give their secrets and guess that will not happen soon. I would be more than glad to experiment if you will send me a couple of hundred unc. Morgans and a laundry list of metals. >>
Liver of sulfur is their only "secret." They do it in combination with heat, as you say. Add a dash of ammonia, and the colors become more vibrant. Jewelers have been using the technique for centuries to oxidize silver jewelry. There, that's their "proprietary advantage," I just stripped them of it. >>
Wow, sounds like you have "messed around" with AT'ing coins. Do you have any examples to post? Possibly any AT Morgans that look "just like" the toner in this thread? thanks >>
That's one hell of an assumption, my friend. Why don't you wrap your small mind around this. Were I a "coin doctor," why would I give up my trade secret to a pigeon like you? >>
Wowsers.... what a basket case... enough said, and your not my friend by the way.
<< <i>And to people who say that this type of color can be "easily duplicated," you have no idea what you're talking about. >>
Ah, the blind exuberance of youth. Listen, you just go right on believing that, you hear? I'm sure there are a lot of doctor-dealers out there who are dependent on it. In the meantime, as for my question, I was rather hoping it could have been replied to by someone with a tad more experience and background under their belt, such as Mark Feld; I mean, if you don't mind getting out of the way, respectfully. Thanks. >>
I'm young. I also have had more exposure to the hobby than many members of the board.
One way to become more knowledgable about doctored coins is to play with coins yourself. I've fooled around with more pieces than I could count. I've tried different ways to AT coins, different ways to replicate circ cams, ways to cover scratches, hide hairlines, etc. Some methods are scarily good at making coins look better. I've never tried to sell one of the pieces or submit them, but I know the effects that certain doctoring techniques create, and I also know how difficult it is to create certain appearances. To create the appearance of a bag toned Morgan is near impossible (although yes, some people have been able to do it). I've also bought and sold a considerable number of bag toned pieces---common dates worth up to about $3k apiece, so I've handled my fair share of them, and studied the chemistry behind them quite a bit.
Perhaps if you'd actually get some first hand experience, as opposed to garnering the majority of your information from members on this board (many of whom are misled, misinformed, and sometimes simply incorrect), Numismatic News, Coin World, etc, then you'd have a better idea of what you're talking about. This forum can be a great place to learn, but it should be a supplement to knowledge you've gained through independent research and experience, and not your main source.
I would like to run a mass spec on the surfaces of a few of these neon toners just to see the composition of them. Not here to guess but some will likely show surprises; used to have daily access but no longer the case as I would love to perform that function myself.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>I disagree and this toning can. Exposure of the surface of the coin to metallic oxides with heat has apparently been accomplished that gives these resullts. I think it would take the coin doctors doing it to give their secrets and guess that will not happen soon. I would be more than glad to experiment if you will send me a couple of hundred unc. Morgans and a laundry list of metals. >>
Liver of sulfur is their only "secret." They do it in combination with heat, as you say. Add a dash of ammonia, and the colors become more vibrant. Jewelers have been using the technique for centuries to oxidize silver jewelry. There, that's their "proprietary advantage," I just stripped them of it. >>
Wow, sounds like you have "messed around" with AT'ing coins. Do you have any examples to post? Possibly any AT Morgans that look "just like" the toner in this thread? thanks >>
That's one hell of an assumption, my friend. Why don't you wrap your small mind around this. Were I a "coin doctor," why would I give up my trade secret to a pigeon like you? >>
Wowsers.... what a basket case... enough said, and your not my friend by the way. >>
Oh wait a minute, now I remember, you're the dealer who bought all those "rainbow toned" GSA Dollars! You're right. Enough said.
<< <i>And to people who say that this type of color can be "easily duplicated," you have no idea what you're talking about. >>
Ah, the blind exuberance of youth. Listen, you just go right on believing that, you hear? I'm sure there are a lot of doctor-dealers out there who are dependent on it. In the meantime, as for my question, I was rather hoping it could have been replied to by someone with a tad more experience and background under their belt, such as Mark Feld; I mean, if you don't mind getting out of the way, respectfully. Thanks. >>
I'm young. I also have had more exposure to the hobby than many members of the board.
One way to become more knowledgable about doctored coins is to play with coins yourself. I've fooled around with more pieces than I could count. I've tried different ways to AT coins, different ways to replicate circ cams, ways to cover scratches, hide hairlines, etc. Some methods are scarily good at making coins look better. I've never tried to sell one of the pieces or submit them, but I know the effects that certain doctoring techniques create, and I also know how difficult it is to create certain appearances. To create the appearance of a bag toned Morgan is near impossible (although yes, some people have been able to do it). I've also bought and sold a considerable number of bag toned pieces---common dates worth up to about $3k apiece, so I've handled my fair share of them, and studied the chemistry behind them quite a bit.
Perhaps if you'd actually get some first hand experience, as opposed to garnering the majority of your information from members on this board (many of whom are misled, misinformed, and sometimes simply incorrect), Numismatic News, Coin World, etc, then you'd have a better idea of what you're talking about. This forum can be a great place to learn, but it should be a supplement to knowledge you've gained through independent research and experience, and not your main source. >>
I misjudged you, and I apologize for it. You obviously have a grasp on this issue beyond your years, and I mean that, sincerely.
This is a self-inflicted wound, in my view. It's the inevitable result of incorporating "eye appeal" as a grading factor. That's the reason we're in this mess. That’s the reason this practice, like it or not, is here to stay. My thinking was, if we could get a better understanding of the techniques involved, we might thereby take some of the money out of the practice by diffusing the proprietary advantage, if you will, which, of course, is the force driving the practice. I evidently stepped on some toes, though (not referring to you), that would rather we be kept ignorant. I'll just leave you with, at this point, thanks for your thought-provoking reply, and I'll take it under advisement. Have to scoot, for now. Take care...
<< <i>I would like to run a mass spec on the surfaces of a few of these neon toners just to see the composition of them. Not here to guess but some will likely show surprises; used to have daily access but no longer the case as I would love to perform that function myself. >>
Not sure why you'd choose mass spec. ESCA is an obvious choice. Possibly the sniffer approach too if it is sensitive enough.
<< <i>And to people who say that this type of color can be "easily duplicated," you have no idea what you're talking about. >>
Ah, the blind exuberance of youth. Listen, you just go right on believing that, you hear? I'm sure there are a lot of doctor-dealers out there who are dependent on it. In the meantime, as for my question, I was rather hoping it could have been replied to by someone with a tad more experience and background under their belt, such as Mark Feld; I mean, if you don't mind getting out of the way, respectfully. Thanks. >>
I'm young. I also have had more exposure to the hobby than many members of the board.
One way to become more knowledgable about doctored coins is to play with coins yourself. I've fooled around with more pieces than I could count. I've tried different ways to AT coins, different ways to replicate circ cams, ways to cover scratches, hide hairlines, etc. Some methods are scarily good at making coins look better. I've never tried to sell one of the pieces or submit them, but I know the effects that certain doctoring techniques create, and I also know how difficult it is to create certain appearances. To create the appearance of a bag toned Morgan is near impossible (although yes, some people have been able to do it). I've also bought and sold a considerable number of bag toned pieces---common dates worth up to about $3k apiece, so I've handled my fair share of them, and studied the chemistry behind them quite a bit.
Perhaps if you'd actually get some first hand experience, as opposed to garnering the majority of your information from members on this board (many of whom are misled, misinformed, and sometimes simply incorrect), Numismatic News, Coin World, etc, then you'd have a better idea of what you're talking about. This forum can be a great place to learn, but it should be a supplement to knowledge you've gained through independent research and experience, and not your main source. >>
I misjudged you, and I apologize for it. You obviously have a grasp on this issue beyond your years, and I mean that, sincerely.
This is a self-inflicted wound, in my view. It's the inevitable result of incorporating "eye appeal" as a grading factor. That's the reason we're in this mess. That’s the reason this practice, like it or not, is here to stay. My thinking was, if we could get a better understanding of the techniques involved, we might thereby take some of the money out of the practice by diffusing the proprietary advantage, if you will, which, of course, is the force driving the practice. I evidently stepped on some toes, though (not referring to you), that would rather we be kept ignorant. I'll just leave you with, at this point, thanks for your thought-provoking reply, and I'll take it under advisement. Have to scoot, for now. Take care... >>
I'm glad to see that apology and agree about the thought provoking reply.
But then, you went ahead and insulted others with your "I evidently stepped on some toes, though (not referring to you), that would rather we be kept ignorant". The fact that some people disagree with you and posted what they did, doesn't mean that they "would rather we be kept ignorant".
Hey Kurtdog. If you showed others respect and above all, show yourself some respect, maybe people would show some respect back to you. Most the posts I have read from you have been, firing from the hip so to speak.
Well, I like the mass spec for getting surface read of composition and confess to finding that a good tool in college (admittedly a couple of years ago). If there was ANY spike for say copper or aluminum, let alone any anions of note it would be interesting and would tend to debunk some of the groundswell of NT [for everything] that seems to pervade these boards.
I have no commercial interest in any way in this issue and only give my opinion as a collector of many years time, and with some background in science (well maybe a bit more than a little)...
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
Coinguy, IMO the very Battle Creek coins themselves should be stars of the AT brigade. And to put the shoe on the other foot, please cite auction photos from prior to 20 years ago that featured neon toning.
Don' t recall any Eliasberg coins (well the collection at least dated to prior to 20 years ago) or Norweb specimens that featured such, and as I recall Norwebs were not immune to picking up exotica of such ilk since it was checkbook collecting - not hating on them, esp the British sections. >>
From 1982...the continental bank hoard
As far as I am aware there were no common date Morgans brining $5,000 and $10,000 due to the toning and yet here we have stunning neon rainbow toned coins that came out of well documented seal bank bags....?
<< <i>'m glad to see that apology and agree about the thought provoking reply. >>
What are you, a moderator? With all due respect, Mark, I hadn’t offered those comments to meet with your approval.
<< <i>But then, you went ahead and insulted others with your "I evidently stepped on some toes, though (not referring to you), that would rather we be kept ignorant". The fact that some people disagree with you and posted what they did, doesn't mean that they "would rather we be kept ignorant". >>
Pccoins’ “observation,” Mark. Get with it. Don’t go throwing that statement of mine off on anybody else, here. That’s just twisted, and unfair.
<< <i>Hey Kurtdog. If you showed others respect and above all, show yourself some respect, maybe people would show some respect back to you. Most the posts I have read from you have been, firing from the hip so to speak. >>
Supposing someone had come into your GSA Morgan Dollar thread and commented,“Wow, looks like you mess around with gassed Morgan Dollars! Do you have any gassed like that, but in a little less lavender? Can we see those? Thanks.” How would you have taken that?
Whether you’re willing to, or not, I’m sweeping this under the rug, no personal animosity held, I don’t have time for this...
<< <i>'m glad to see that apology and agree about the thought provoking reply. >>
What are you, a moderator? With all due respect, Mark, I hadn’t offered those comments to meet with your approval.
<< <i>But then, you went ahead and insulted others with your "I evidently stepped on some toes, though (not referring to you), that would rather we be kept ignorant". The fact that some people disagree with you and posted what they did, doesn't mean that they "would rather we be kept ignorant". >>
Pccoins’ “observation,” Mark. Get with it. Don’t go throwing that statement of mine off on anybody else, here. That’s just twisted, and unfair. >>
Each of us is free to agree or disagree with what others post. And if I feel like saying I am glad to see an apology and/or that I agree a particular post is thought provoking, I will do so.
And, whether intentionally or otherwise, you have insulted more than one person in this thread, as well as others recently. Surely, you are observant enough to be aware of that. I've attempted to answer many of your questions in the past, despite the fact that I felt you had a tendency to be rude. I have finally learned my lesson.
<< <i>Kryptonite - thanks for the picture but I see toning not neon electric toning, maybe just the generation of picture reaching me not good? >>
I'm not Kryptonite/Shane and I'm on a plane about to depart, so don't have time to get more detailed reply. But I found the information below with a quick search - pleased note the portion I highlighted in bold. My recollection is that there were many wildly toned examples in the hoard:
"The Continental-Illinois National Bank Hoard
The grand-daddy of all coin hoards, and the leading example of a successful hoard dispersal in all senses of the term, must be the Continental-Illinois National Bank hoard of silver dollars in the early 1980s.
Banks are required by federal law to keep a certain percentage of their “deposits” in cash at all times as one of their federal reserve requirements. For more than a century, it seems, the Continental-Illinois National Bank in Chicago kept a portion of its reserves in original mint bags of silver dollars.
Because of the bank’s financial difficulties in the early 1980s, the Board of Directors of the bank decided to sell the bags for the significant profit that they were worth over their face value, to help soften the financial crisis that so many banks were facing at the time.
Beginning in 1982 and lasting for several years, as many as 1,000 original bags of brilliant uncirculated Morgan silver dollars, and another 500 bags of circulated silver dollar, came out of this hoard. That means more than 1.5 million coins! The majority were common dates: 1879-S, 1880-S, 1881-S, 1882-S, 1883-O, 1884-O, 1885-O, 1886-P and 1887-P. There were a dozen or so bags each of 1883-P and 1884-P and a few more single bags of some other dates. Beyond the sheer numbers, the condition of the coins was remarkable. Many from this hoard were absolutely breathtaking gems, exhibiting incredible cartwheel luster, magnificent rainbow toning, and outstanding proof-like strikes. .
Marketing of the Continental-Illinois National Bank hoard was handled in model fashion. From the very start, the two or three major retailers who were charged with organizing the dispersal understood that the greatest benefit to all would be obtained by utilizing the abilities of the entire industry, wholesalers and retailers alike. By establishing an extremely wide distribution channel, they could rely upon the grass-roots marketing efforts of mail order and storefront dealers, and millions of customers would be reached directly. The combination of product, story, and price was a perfect fit for them. Extraordinary demand was created, and because so much of the industry was involved, the after-market support was firmly in place and demand for the hoard coins continued to build.
As a result of this successful dispersal strategy, the entire silver dollar market grew for the next five years. From 1982 to 1985, for example, Morgan Silver Dollars in MS 65 increased in average value by 450%! Collectors and investors alike were happy, and the hobby enjoyed a wonderful resurgence."
Comments
I say PC because IMO there are such blatant ATs that automatically get the moos of the herd as "NT", don't go there with the Battle Creek coins.
PS - presumably coins in the bag are oriented randomly with obv. or rev. up so that toning should occur roughly equally to each side so can not see the point put up by BF that it is seen on reverse or that the obverse would be the money side.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>Trying to be nice about the political correctness - I think my point seems entirely missed in that a bag can be subjected to chemicals/substances, gas or liquid that can AT the included coins.
I say PC because IMO there are such blatant ATs that automatically get the moos of the herd as "NT", don't go there with the Battle Creek coins.
PS - presumably coins in the bag are oriented randomly with obv. or rev. up so that toning should occur roughly equally to each side so can not see the point put up by BF that it is seen on reverse or that the obverse would be the money side. >>
There is no way for anyone to know from any given bag how many coins from that bag were toned on the reverse or the obverse; tho it is dumb luck or 50:50 that it will be one side or the other. If you watch TeleTrade listings much, it is a given that nice obverse toners bring more money than do reverse toned coins, esp Morgans. Therefore if you are going to AT a coin, do it on the obverse. There are no pop reports for toners so who would really know if 5,000 new obverse toners trickled into the market.
Are you implying too that entire bags of Morgans [like the BC hoard] were intentionally placed into toning atmospheres or gassed in the bag? If that were true, how would you know when to stop so the coins don't turn black? I assume the bags were mint sealed and unopened.
<< <i>Trying to be nice about the political correctness - I think my point seems entirely missed in that a bag can be subjected to chemicals/substances, gas or liquid that can AT the included coins.
I say PC because IMO there are such blatant ATs that automatically get the moos of the herd as "NT", don't go there with the Battle Creek coins.
PS - presumably coins in the bag are oriented randomly with obv. or rev. up so that toning should occur roughly equally to each side so can not see the point put up by BF that it is seen on reverse or that the obverse would be the money side. >>
Please show us images of just a few of those "such blatant ATs that automatically get the moos of the herd". I promise I wont moo too loudly or for too long. And even if you really believe that there are many AT Morgan Dollar from toning them artificially through bags, why aren't there more better/rare dates and/or obverse toned ones that aren't toned through bags?
AB
Coinguy, IMO the very Battle Creek coins themselves should be stars of the AT brigade. And to put the shoe on the other foot, please cite auction photos from prior to 20 years ago that featured neon toning.
Don' t recall any Eliasberg coins (well the collection at least dated to prior to 20 years ago) or Norweb specimens that featured such, and as I recall Norwebs were not immune to picking up exotica of such ilk since it was checkbook collecting - not hating on them, esp the British sections.
Well, just Love coins, period.
I have a copy of the 1982 edition of "The Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook" by Wayne Miller, and page 46 happens to contain quite a few examples of the neon toned Morgan dollars. Miller has opened many a bag, and I'd take his experience over others that say AT for the sake of saying AT. I've seen neon toned examples myself from coin shows from the late 70's on, though they were pretty scarce. Maybe all of them weren't NT, but chances were higher that they were. Granted, there are many bad AT examples out there today, but I don't think the coin in the OP is one of them.
And to second the other sentiments on here - yes, please show us some neon examples of dates like the 1896-O, 1903-O, 1892-S, hell even a 1921-S Morgan.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
<< <i>Since this coin is only reverse toned it logically has a better chance of being natural toning. >>
So from now on they only dip reverses.
<< <i>IMO the very Battle Creek coins themselves should be stars of the AT brigade. >>
Tell me about it!
<< <i>BF - great pictures! LOL!!!
Coinguy, IMO the very Battle Creek coins themselves should be stars of the AT brigade. And to put the shoe on the other foot, please cite auction photos from prior to 20 years ago that featured neon toning.
Don' t recall any Eliasberg coins (well the collection at least dated to prior to 20 years ago) or Norweb specimens that featured such, and as I recall Norwebs were not immune to picking up exotica of such ilk since it was checkbook collecting - not hating on them, esp the British sections. >>
You made the claim, so should be willing to back it up. And to be fair, that - providing images of recent examples of "such blatant ATs that automatically get the moos of the herd as "NT" - should be much easier for you, than my going back and locating images from 20 years ago.
That aside, while I don't have (and care to look for) auction photos from 20 years ago, I have been in the business full time since 1979. And I remember seeing a good number of neon toned Morgan dollars from mint bags, some of which I was present for at their opening, and bought. Finally, the fact that certain collections don't contain examples of them is irrelevant.
Edited to add: As for the battle Creek coins - it might not mean anything to you, but it means something to me, when a dealer like Mike De Falco, who is probably about as experienced as anyone in handling toned Morgan Dollars, was a big buyer of the coins. Even had he not been, however, I would not have questioned their originality.
I will take the knowledge and experience of dealers like him and collectors (like poster Sunnywood, who also has a background in chemistry) over the opinions of those who make pronouncements, without any sound basis that I am aware of.
<< <i>I have been in the business full time since 1979. >>
That's some distance of ground. Perhaps you'd be willing to share with us some of your experienced insights into just why you believe this beloved hobby of ours is in this mess, today. I mean, if it's not too much to ask...
<< <i>
<< <i>I have been in the business full time since 1979. >>
That's some distance of ground. Perhaps you'd be willing to share with us some of your experienced insights into just why you believe this beloved hobby of ours is in this mess, today. I mean, if it's not too much to ask... >>
Our hobby is not in a mess. The problem of doctored coins is indeed a problem, but it does not plague numismatics as badly as some people would have you believe. Numismatic publications have greatly sensationalized the issues surrounding chinese counterfeits. Etc etc, I could go on for a while. If the hobby is in such a pile of slop, why did coins hold their value better than most other assets throughout the entire economic downturn?
There was recently a select group of Morgan dollars discovered that were artificially toned in a way which closely resembled bag toned Morgans. The coins were in PCGS holders and fooled almost everybody. However, that does not mean every coin that resembles a bag toned Morgan is AT. And 99% of the time, coins that have this look are still considered natural. If you don't believe this coin at least has the pattern of a bag toned Morgan, you need to reexamine what you think you know.
And to people who say that this type of color can be "easily duplicated," you have no idea what you're talking about.
<< <i>And to people who say that this type of color can be "easily duplicated," you have no idea what you're talking about. >>
Thank you, I totally agree.
Just because a dealer says a bag was pristene somehow does not make it for me at all - money to be made changes judgements and pronouncements. Profit & money will definately excuse those making money on such from judgements about their products.
Meanwhile the dearth of auction records really is a problem for these type of coins/products in terms of provenence. I do seem to recall Miller's book showing some and that was the vanguard of these products. There obviously should not be such a problem producing them if in fact such were available in mint sealed bags for all these years with countless
tens of thousands of bags having been opened.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>And to people who say that this type of color can be "easily duplicated," you have no idea what you're talking about. >>
Ah, the blind exuberance of youth. Listen, you just go right on believing that, you hear? I'm sure there are a lot of doctor-dealers out there who are dependent on it. In the meantime, as for my question, I was rather hoping it could have been replied to by someone with a tad more experience and background under their belt, such as Mark Feld; I mean, if you don't mind getting out of the way, respectfully. Thanks.
<< <i>I disagree and this toning can. Exposure of the surface of the coin to metallic oxides with heat has apparently been accomplished that gives these resullts. I think it would take the coin doctors doing it to give their secrets and guess that will not happen soon. I would be more than glad to experiment if you will send me a couple of hundred unc. Morgans and a laundry list of metals. >>
Liver of sulfur is their only "secret." They do it in combination with heat, as you say. Add a dash of ammonia, and the colors become more vibrant. Jewelers have been using the technique for centuries to oxidize silver jewelry. There, that's their "proprietary advantage," I just stripped them of it.
But I'm declaring it to be AT because I don't see the shadow effect, sorry forgot the technical term.
Herb
<< <i>
<< <i>I disagree and this toning can. Exposure of the surface of the coin to metallic oxides with heat has apparently been accomplished that gives these resullts. I think it would take the coin doctors doing it to give their secrets and guess that will not happen soon. I would be more than glad to experiment if you will send me a couple of hundred unc. Morgans and a laundry list of metals. >>
Liver of sulfur is their only "secret." They do it in combination with heat, as you say. Add a dash of ammonia, and the colors become more vibrant. Jewelers have been using the technique for centuries to oxidize silver jewelry. There, that's their "proprietary advantage," I just stripped them of it. >>
Ill say it again, Sulfer is a common chemical that is used to AT coins but it is also a hard chemical to control. Applying it via a wet method will never i mean never give you that result. Even in a gasing form it is hard to control and will still only produce certain colors. It also tends to make coins develope carbon spots and gives the toning a smokey appearance. I will also add that you will ruin many coins using this method before you get one that will look convincing. I still have a nickel that was done most likely via the gasing method if anyone wants to see it.
<< <i>Ill say it again, Sulfer is a common chemical that is used to AT coins but it is also a hard chemical to control. Applying it via a wet method will never i mean never give you that result. Even in a gasing form it is hard to control and will still only produce certain colors. It also tends to make coins develope carbon spots and gives the toning a smokey appearance. I will also add that you will ruin many coins using this method before you get one that will look convincing. I still have a nickel that was done most likely via the gasing method if anyone wants to see it. >>
Djdilliodon, for the record, I heard you the first time around. Let's get past that issue, for now. We can go back to it, later, if you want. I have a question. I was wondering how a GSA Morgan Dollar gets "rainbow toned," so to speak, while in the GSA slab. If you have any theories on that, I'd like to know what you think. Thanks.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ill say it again, Sulfer is a common chemical that is used to AT coins but it is also a hard chemical to control. Applying it via a wet method will never i mean never give you that result. Even in a gasing form it is hard to control and will still only produce certain colors. It also tends to make coins develope carbon spots and gives the toning a smokey appearance. I will also add that you will ruin many coins using this method before you get one that will look convincing. I still have a nickel that was done most likely via the gasing method if anyone wants to see it. >>
Djdilliodon, for the record, I heard you the first time around. Let's get past that issue, for now. We can go back to it, later, if you want. I have a question. I was wondering how a GSA Morgan Dollar gets "rainbow toned," so to speak, while in the GSA slab. If you have any theories on that, I'd like to know what you think. Thanks. >>
To my knowledge GSA dollars toned before entering the holders from mint bags stored by the government. Someone correct me if im wrong on that since i do not collect morgans but collect other toned coins such as washingtons and franklins. To answer your question though how a coin will tone in a holder is easy enough. Ever see proof coins or business struck coins in capital plastic screw down holders toned? You may think how can they tone being in there. Those holders just like the slabbed coins from the third party graders are not air tight. Where collectors stored those holders ect can play a role in the toning of the coins but the main causes in the air that will tone a coin in those holders is small amounts of hydrogen sulfide, small traces of sulfer, and other air impurities.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Ill say it again, Sulfer is a common chemical that is used to AT coins but it is also a hard chemical to control. Applying it via a wet method will never i mean never give you that result. Even in a gasing form it is hard to control and will still only produce certain colors. It also tends to make coins develope carbon spots and gives the toning a smokey appearance. I will also add that you will ruin many coins using this method before you get one that will look convincing. I still have a nickel that was done most likely via the gasing method if anyone wants to see it. >>
Djdilliodon, for the record, I heard you the first time around. Let's get past that issue, for now. We can go back to it, later, if you want. I have a question. I was wondering how a GSA Morgan Dollar gets "rainbow toned," so to speak, while in the GSA slab. If you have any theories on that, I'd like to know what you think. Thanks. >>
To my knowledge GSA dollars toned before entering the holders from mint bags stored by the government. Someone correct me if im wrong on that since i do not collect morgans but collect other toned coins such as washingtons and franklins. To answer your question though how a coin will tone in a holder is easy enough. Ever see proof coins or business struck coins in capital plastic screw down holders toned? You may think how can they tone being in there. Those holders just like the slabbed coins from the third party graders are not air tight. Where collectors stored those holders ect can play a role in the toning of the coins but the main causes in the air that will tone a coin in those holders is small amounts of hydrogen sulfide, small traces of sulfer, and other air impurities. >>
It is also my impression that, for the most part, GSA Dollars were already toned when placed into those holders.
<< <i>To my knowledge GSA dollars toned before entering the holders from mint bags stored by the government. Someone correct me if im wrong on that since i do not collect morgans but collect other toned coins such as washingtons and franklins. To answer your question though how a coin will tone in a holder is easy enough. Ever see proof coins or business struck coins in capital plastic screw down holders toned? You may think how can they tone being in there. Those holders just like the slabbed coins from the third party graders are not air tight. Where collectors stored those holders ect can play a role in the toning of the coins but the main causes in the air that will tone a coin in those holders is small amounts of hydrogen sulfide, small traces of sulfer, and other air impurities. >>
I've seen silver tableware that had been polished then stored away in the box only to come out oxidized decades later. I guess that's one of the reasons air-tite holders for our coins are such big business. I guess it doesn't take much at all to tone these, you're saying, once they're exposed to the right environment.
<< <i>
<< <i>To my knowledge GSA dollars toned before entering the holders from mint bags stored by the government. Someone correct me if im wrong on that since i do not collect morgans but collect other toned coins such as washingtons and franklins. To answer your question though how a coin will tone in a holder is easy enough. Ever see proof coins or business struck coins in capital plastic screw down holders toned? You may think how can they tone being in there. Those holders just like the slabbed coins from the third party graders are not air tight. Where collectors stored those holders ect can play a role in the toning of the coins but the main causes in the air that will tone a coin in those holders is small amounts of hydrogen sulfide, small traces of sulfer, and other air impurities. >>
I've seen silver tableware that had been polished then stored away in the box only to come out oxidized decades later. I guess that's one of the reasons air-tite holders for our coins are such big business. I guess it doesn't take much at all to tone these, you're saying, once they're exposed to the right environment. >>
In the right environment and with time coins will tone especially for silver and more so copper. The key factor though is time and even if a coin is subject to all of the above doesnt mean the end result will always be good. Many will tone ugly just some will turn out to be nice ones
<< <i>I disagree and this toning can. Exposure of the surface of the coin to metallic oxides with heat has apparently been accomplished that gives these resullts. I think it would take the coin doctors doing it to give their secrets and guess that will not happen soon. I would be more than glad to experiment if you will send me a couple of hundred unc. Morgans and a laundry list of metals.
I do seem to recall Miller's book showing some and that was the vanguard of these products. There obviously should not be such a problem producing them if in fact such were available in mint sealed bags for all these years with countless
tens of thousands of bags having been opened. >>
That would be easy enough to prove by ESCA/XPS analysis if one was so inclined. If metal oxides were used, it would be simple enough to find out just which ones were employed.
Keep in mind that many many toners were dipped in the past as customers greatly preferred white coins. Also, a lot of the best ones are in strong hands. I would aso venture to guess that those with the most "hands on" expertise will tell you that the number of really nice toners in a 1,000 coin bag was probably very small.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Ill say it again, Sulfer is a common chemical that is used to AT coins but it is also a hard chemical to control. Applying it via a wet method will never i mean never give you that result. Even in a gasing form it is hard to control and will still only produce certain colors. It also tends to make coins develope carbon spots and gives the toning a smokey appearance. I will also add that you will ruin many coins using this method before you get one that will look convincing. I still have a nickel that was done most likely via the gasing method if anyone wants to see it. >>
Djdilliodon, for the record, I heard you the first time around. Let's get past that issue, for now. We can go back to it, later, if you want. I have a question. I was wondering how a GSA Morgan Dollar gets "rainbow toned," so to speak, while in the GSA slab. If you have any theories on that, I'd like to know what you think. Thanks. >>
To my knowledge GSA dollars toned before entering the holders from mint bags stored by the government. Someone correct me if im wrong on that since i do not collect morgans but collect other toned coins such as washingtons and franklins. To answer your question though how a coin will tone in a holder is easy enough. Ever see proof coins or business struck coins in capital plastic screw down holders toned? You may think how can they tone being in there. Those holders just like the slabbed coins from the third party graders are not air tight. Where collectors stored those holders ect can play a role in the toning of the coins but the main causes in the air that will tone a coin in those holders is small amounts of hydrogen sulfide, small traces of sulfer, and other air impurities. >>
It is also my impression that, for the most part, GSA Dollars were already toned when placed into those holders. >>
I believe that is correct Mark. Also IIRC, the really ugly blackened and greenish ones were withheld from the sale.
<< <i>
<< <i>I disagree and this toning can. Exposure of the surface of the coin to metallic oxides with heat has apparently been accomplished that gives these resullts. I think it would take the coin doctors doing it to give their secrets and guess that will not happen soon. I would be more than glad to experiment if you will send me a couple of hundred unc. Morgans and a laundry list of metals. >>
Liver of sulfur is their only "secret." They do it in combination with heat, as you say. Add a dash of ammonia, and the colors become more vibrant. Jewelers have been using the technique for centuries to oxidize silver jewelry. There, that's their "proprietary advantage," I just stripped them of it. >>
Wow, sounds like you have "messed around" with AT'ing coins. Do you have any examples to post? Possibly any AT Morgans that look "just like" the toner in this thread? thanks
<< <i>Nice coin Tom, I like!
But I'm declaring it to be AT because I don't see the shadow effect, sorry forgot the technical term.
Herb >>
I don't believe Herb that the absence of the shadow effect is necessarily hard proof that the coin is AT. I have any number of similar toned coins in PCGS holders that don't have the effect, including these two which toning guru Mike De Falco [coingame2000 here] says that he knows firsthand came from a sealed bag.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I disagree and this toning can. Exposure of the surface of the coin to metallic oxides with heat has apparently been accomplished that gives these resullts. I think it would take the coin doctors doing it to give their secrets and guess that will not happen soon. I would be more than glad to experiment if you will send me a couple of hundred unc. Morgans and a laundry list of metals. >>
Liver of sulfur is their only "secret." They do it in combination with heat, as you say. Add a dash of ammonia, and the colors become more vibrant. Jewelers have been using the technique for centuries to oxidize silver jewelry. There, that's their "proprietary advantage," I just stripped them of it. >>
Wow, sounds like you have "messed around" with AT'ing coins. Do you have any examples to post? Possibly any AT Morgans that look "just like" the toner in this thread? thanks >>
That's one hell of an assumption, my friend. Why don't you wrap your small mind around this. Were I a "coin doctor," why would I give up my trade secret to a pigeon like you?
<< <i>
<< <i>Nice coin Tom, I like!
But I'm declaring it to be AT because I don't see the shadow effect, sorry forgot the technical term.
Herb >>
I don't believe Herb that the absence of the shadow effect is necessarily hard proof that the coin is AT. I have any number of similar toned coins in PCGS holders that don't have the effect, including these two which toning guru Mike De Falco [coingame2000 here] says that he knows firsthand came from a sealed bag.
I agree on that as well. The shadow effect is not a solid tell tale sign that a coin is NT. Same goes for when a coin tones over the devices and fields instead of just the fields.
and here
and on this 1882-S graded PCGS ms66
and this 1884-O graded PCGS ms63.
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<< <i>I have been in the business full time since 1979. >>
That's some distance of ground. Perhaps you'd be willing to share with us some of your experienced insights into just why you believe this beloved hobby of ours is in this mess, today. I mean, if it's not too much to ask... >>
There was recently a select group of Morgan dollars discovered that were artificially toned in a way which closely resembled bag toned Morgans. The coins were in PCGS holders and fooled almost everybody. However, that does not mean every coin that resembles a bag toned Morgan is AT. And 99% of the time, coins that have this look are still considered natural. If you don't believe this coin at least has the pattern of a bag toned Morgan, you need to reexamine what you think you know.
And to people who say that this type of color can be "easily duplicated," you have no idea what you're talking about. >>
I'd love to see some of those if someone could post pix here. That is the first I have heard of them.
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<< <i>I disagree and this toning can. Exposure of the surface of the coin to metallic oxides with heat has apparently been accomplished that gives these resullts. I think it would take the coin doctors doing it to give their secrets and guess that will not happen soon. I would be more than glad to experiment if you will send me a couple of hundred unc. Morgans and a laundry list of metals. >>
Liver of sulfur is their only "secret." They do it in combination with heat, as you say. Add a dash of ammonia, and the colors become more vibrant. Jewelers have been using the technique for centuries to oxidize silver jewelry. There, that's their "proprietary advantage," I just stripped them of it. >>
Wow, sounds like you have "messed around" with AT'ing coins. Do you have any examples to post? Possibly any AT Morgans that look "just like" the toner in this thread? thanks >>
That's one hell of an assumption, my friend. Why don't you wrap your small mind around this. Were I a "coin doctor," why would I give up my trade secret to a pigeon like you? >>
Wowsers.... what a basket case... enough said, and your not my friend by the way.
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<< <i>And to people who say that this type of color can be "easily duplicated," you have no idea what you're talking about. >>
Ah, the blind exuberance of youth. Listen, you just go right on believing that, you hear? I'm sure there are a lot of doctor-dealers out there who are dependent on it. In the meantime, as for my question, I was rather hoping it could have been replied to by someone with a tad more experience and background under their belt, such as Mark Feld; I mean, if you don't mind getting out of the way, respectfully. Thanks. >>
I'm young. I also have had more exposure to the hobby than many members of the board.
One way to become more knowledgable about doctored coins is to play with coins yourself. I've fooled around with more pieces than I could count. I've tried different ways to AT coins, different ways to replicate circ cams, ways to cover scratches, hide hairlines, etc. Some methods are scarily good at making coins look better. I've never tried to sell one of the pieces or submit them, but I know the effects that certain doctoring techniques create, and I also know how difficult it is to create certain appearances. To create the appearance of a bag toned Morgan is near impossible (although yes, some people have been able to do it). I've also bought and sold a considerable number of bag toned pieces---common dates worth up to about $3k apiece, so I've handled my fair share of them, and studied the chemistry behind them quite a bit.
Perhaps if you'd actually get some first hand experience, as opposed to garnering the majority of your information from members on this board (many of whom are misled, misinformed, and sometimes simply incorrect), Numismatic News, Coin World, etc, then you'd have a better idea of what you're talking about. This forum can be a great place to learn, but it should be a supplement to knowledge you've gained through independent research and experience, and not your main source.
Well, just Love coins, period.
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<< <i>I disagree and this toning can. Exposure of the surface of the coin to metallic oxides with heat has apparently been accomplished that gives these resullts. I think it would take the coin doctors doing it to give their secrets and guess that will not happen soon. I would be more than glad to experiment if you will send me a couple of hundred unc. Morgans and a laundry list of metals. >>
Liver of sulfur is their only "secret." They do it in combination with heat, as you say. Add a dash of ammonia, and the colors become more vibrant. Jewelers have been using the technique for centuries to oxidize silver jewelry. There, that's their "proprietary advantage," I just stripped them of it. >>
Wow, sounds like you have "messed around" with AT'ing coins. Do you have any examples to post? Possibly any AT Morgans that look "just like" the toner in this thread? thanks >>
That's one hell of an assumption, my friend. Why don't you wrap your small mind around this. Were I a "coin doctor," why would I give up my trade secret to a pigeon like you? >>
Wowsers.... what a basket case... enough said, and your not my friend by the way.
Oh wait a minute, now I remember, you're the dealer who bought all those "rainbow toned" GSA Dollars! You're right. Enough said.
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<< <i>And to people who say that this type of color can be "easily duplicated," you have no idea what you're talking about. >>
Ah, the blind exuberance of youth. Listen, you just go right on believing that, you hear? I'm sure there are a lot of doctor-dealers out there who are dependent on it. In the meantime, as for my question, I was rather hoping it could have been replied to by someone with a tad more experience and background under their belt, such as Mark Feld; I mean, if you don't mind getting out of the way, respectfully. Thanks. >>
I'm young. I also have had more exposure to the hobby than many members of the board.
One way to become more knowledgable about doctored coins is to play with coins yourself. I've fooled around with more pieces than I could count. I've tried different ways to AT coins, different ways to replicate circ cams, ways to cover scratches, hide hairlines, etc. Some methods are scarily good at making coins look better. I've never tried to sell one of the pieces or submit them, but I know the effects that certain doctoring techniques create, and I also know how difficult it is to create certain appearances. To create the appearance of a bag toned Morgan is near impossible (although yes, some people have been able to do it). I've also bought and sold a considerable number of bag toned pieces---common dates worth up to about $3k apiece, so I've handled my fair share of them, and studied the chemistry behind them quite a bit.
Perhaps if you'd actually get some first hand experience, as opposed to garnering the majority of your information from members on this board (many of whom are misled, misinformed, and sometimes simply incorrect), Numismatic News, Coin World, etc, then you'd have a better idea of what you're talking about. This forum can be a great place to learn, but it should be a supplement to knowledge you've gained through independent research and experience, and not your main source. >>
I misjudged you, and I apologize for it. You obviously have a grasp on this issue beyond your years, and I mean that, sincerely.
This is a self-inflicted wound, in my view. It's the inevitable result of incorporating "eye appeal" as a grading factor. That's the reason we're in this mess. That’s the reason this practice, like it or not, is here to stay. My thinking was, if we could get a better understanding of the techniques involved, we might thereby take some of the money out of the practice by diffusing the proprietary advantage, if you will, which, of course, is the force driving the practice. I evidently stepped on some toes, though (not referring to you), that would rather we be kept ignorant. I'll just leave you with, at this point, thanks for your thought-provoking reply, and I'll take it under advisement. Have to scoot, for now. Take care...
<< <i>I would like to run a mass spec on the surfaces of a few of these neon toners just to see the composition of them. Not here to guess but some will likely show surprises; used to have daily access but no longer the case as I would love to perform that function myself. >>
Not sure why you'd choose mass spec. ESCA is an obvious choice. Possibly the sniffer approach too if it is sensitive enough.
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<< <i>And to people who say that this type of color can be "easily duplicated," you have no idea what you're talking about. >>
Ah, the blind exuberance of youth. Listen, you just go right on believing that, you hear? I'm sure there are a lot of doctor-dealers out there who are dependent on it. In the meantime, as for my question, I was rather hoping it could have been replied to by someone with a tad more experience and background under their belt, such as Mark Feld; I mean, if you don't mind getting out of the way, respectfully. Thanks. >>
I'm young. I also have had more exposure to the hobby than many members of the board.
One way to become more knowledgable about doctored coins is to play with coins yourself. I've fooled around with more pieces than I could count. I've tried different ways to AT coins, different ways to replicate circ cams, ways to cover scratches, hide hairlines, etc. Some methods are scarily good at making coins look better. I've never tried to sell one of the pieces or submit them, but I know the effects that certain doctoring techniques create, and I also know how difficult it is to create certain appearances. To create the appearance of a bag toned Morgan is near impossible (although yes, some people have been able to do it). I've also bought and sold a considerable number of bag toned pieces---common dates worth up to about $3k apiece, so I've handled my fair share of them, and studied the chemistry behind them quite a bit.
Perhaps if you'd actually get some first hand experience, as opposed to garnering the majority of your information from members on this board (many of whom are misled, misinformed, and sometimes simply incorrect), Numismatic News, Coin World, etc, then you'd have a better idea of what you're talking about. This forum can be a great place to learn, but it should be a supplement to knowledge you've gained through independent research and experience, and not your main source. >>
I misjudged you, and I apologize for it. You obviously have a grasp on this issue beyond your years, and I mean that, sincerely.
This is a self-inflicted wound, in my view. It's the inevitable result of incorporating "eye appeal" as a grading factor. That's the reason we're in this mess. That’s the reason this practice, like it or not, is here to stay. My thinking was, if we could get a better understanding of the techniques involved, we might thereby take some of the money out of the practice by diffusing the proprietary advantage, if you will, which, of course, is the force driving the practice. I evidently stepped on some toes, though (not referring to you), that would rather we be kept ignorant. I'll just leave you with, at this point, thanks for your thought-provoking reply, and I'll take it under advisement. Have to scoot, for now. Take care... >>
I'm glad to see that apology and agree about the thought provoking reply.
But then, you went ahead and insulted others with your "I evidently stepped on some toes, though (not referring to you), that would rather we be kept ignorant". The fact that some people disagree with you and posted what they did, doesn't mean that they "would rather we be kept ignorant".
I have no commercial interest in any way in this issue and only give my opinion as a collector of many years time, and with some background in science (well maybe a bit more than a little)...
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>BF - great pictures! LOL!!!
Coinguy, IMO the very Battle Creek coins themselves should be stars of the AT brigade. And to put the shoe on the other foot, please cite auction photos from prior to 20 years ago that featured neon toning.
Don' t recall any Eliasberg coins (well the collection at least dated to prior to 20 years ago) or Norweb specimens that featured such, and as I recall Norwebs were not immune to picking up exotica of such ilk since it was checkbook collecting - not hating on them, esp the British sections. >>
From 1982...the continental bank hoard
As far as I am aware there were no common date Morgans brining $5,000 and $10,000 due to the toning and yet here we have stunning neon rainbow toned coins that came out of well documented seal bank bags....?
<< <i>'m glad to see that apology and agree about the thought provoking reply. >>
What are you, a moderator? With all due respect, Mark, I hadn’t offered those comments to meet with your approval.
<< <i>But then, you went ahead and insulted others with your "I evidently stepped on some toes, though (not referring to you), that would rather we be kept ignorant". The fact that some people disagree with you and posted what they did, doesn't mean that they "would rather we be kept ignorant". >>
Pccoins’ “observation,” Mark. Get with it. Don’t go throwing that statement of mine off on anybody else, here. That’s just twisted, and unfair.
<< <i>Hey Kurtdog. If you showed others respect and above all, show yourself some respect, maybe people would show some respect back to you. Most the posts I have read from you have been, firing from the hip so to speak. >>
Supposing someone had come into your GSA Morgan Dollar thread and commented,“Wow, looks like you mess around with gassed Morgan Dollars! Do you have any gassed like that, but in a little less lavender? Can we see those? Thanks.” How would you have taken that?
Whether you’re willing to, or not, I’m sweeping this under the rug, no personal animosity held, I don’t have time for this...
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<< <i>'m glad to see that apology and agree about the thought provoking reply. >>
What are you, a moderator? With all due respect, Mark, I hadn’t offered those comments to meet with your approval.
<< <i>But then, you went ahead and insulted others with your "I evidently stepped on some toes, though (not referring to you), that would rather we be kept ignorant". The fact that some people disagree with you and posted what they did, doesn't mean that they "would rather we be kept ignorant". >>
Pccoins’ “observation,” Mark. Get with it. Don’t go throwing that statement of mine off on anybody else, here. That’s just twisted, and unfair. >>
Each of us is free to agree or disagree with what others post. And if I feel like saying I am glad to see an apology and/or that I agree a particular post is thought provoking, I will do so.
And, whether intentionally or otherwise, you have insulted more than one person in this thread, as well as others recently. Surely, you are observant enough to be aware of that. I've attempted to answer many of your questions in the past, despite the fact that I felt you had a tendency to be rude. I have finally learned my lesson.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>Kryptonite - thanks for the picture but I see toning not neon electric toning, maybe just the generation of picture reaching me not good? >>
I'm not Kryptonite/Shane and I'm on a plane about to depart, so don't have time to get more detailed reply. But I found the information below with a quick search - pleased note the portion I highlighted in bold. My recollection is that there were many wildly toned examples in the hoard:
"The Continental-Illinois National Bank Hoard
The grand-daddy of all coin hoards, and the leading example of a successful hoard dispersal in all senses of the term, must be the Continental-Illinois National Bank hoard of silver dollars in the early 1980s.
Banks are required by federal law to keep a certain percentage of their “deposits” in cash at all times as one of their federal reserve requirements. For more than a century, it seems, the Continental-Illinois National Bank in Chicago kept a portion of its reserves in original mint bags of silver dollars.
Because of the bank’s financial difficulties in the early 1980s, the Board of Directors of the bank decided to sell the bags for the significant profit that they were worth over their face value, to help soften the financial crisis that so many banks were facing at the time.
Beginning in 1982 and lasting for several years, as many as 1,000 original bags of brilliant uncirculated Morgan silver dollars, and another 500 bags of circulated silver dollar, came out of this hoard. That means more than 1.5 million coins! The majority were common dates: 1879-S, 1880-S, 1881-S, 1882-S, 1883-O, 1884-O, 1885-O, 1886-P and 1887-P. There were a dozen or so bags each of 1883-P and 1884-P and a few more single bags of some other dates. Beyond the sheer numbers, the condition of the coins was remarkable. Many from this hoard were absolutely breathtaking gems, exhibiting incredible cartwheel luster, magnificent rainbow toning, and outstanding proof-like strikes. .
Marketing of the Continental-Illinois National Bank hoard was handled in model fashion. From the very start, the two or three major retailers who were charged with organizing the dispersal understood that the greatest benefit to all would be obtained by utilizing the abilities of the entire industry, wholesalers and retailers alike. By establishing an extremely wide distribution channel, they could rely upon the grass-roots marketing efforts of mail order and storefront dealers, and millions of customers would be reached directly. The combination of product, story, and price was a perfect fit for them. Extraordinary demand was created, and because so much of the industry was involved, the after-market support was firmly in place and demand for the hoard coins continued to build.
As a result of this successful dispersal strategy, the entire silver dollar market grew for the next five years. From 1982 to 1985, for example, Morgan Silver Dollars in MS 65 increased in average value by 450%! Collectors and investors alike were happy, and the hobby enjoyed a wonderful resurgence."