Modern Submitters - take on PCGS with New copper - thoughts on the harsh grading

clackamas · June 29, 2010 6:30AM

I got taken to the cleaners earlier this year by bulk with some superb 2008-D Lincolns and FY 2009's. I had some litterally near perfect coins (a few minor water spots, but technically 69's) get 66'd. - I cherried these off the top of a mint ballistic bag for crying out loud. I see someone got taken to the wood shed on the 2010-P' Shields (1375 MS65's - 1 MS66RD).

What are they hung up on? Is it counting marks, spots? Thoughts, I just got a group of great 2010-D's and want to make sure I am not missing something that use to not be an issue (spots). Is it just bulk?

Manorcourtman · June 29, 2010 6:46AM

This was discussed at length on the Registry boards. I made the one Philly 66 and about 5 of the Denvers in 66 so I feel very qualified to talk about their NEW standards. They HAVE changed their standards and I will NOT ever send them another 2010 and beyond Lincoln due to their 'changes." I believe I had some 67's that were thrown into their new 65 category. I now send all my new coppers to NGC where I have made about half of the 16 Philly's in 67. Some 50,000 plus coins were searched by myself and company so I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly put out by both Mints this year. I don't know why they turned so harsh but the pop numbers don't lie. Several very good Lincoln graders on these boards have also noticed the changes. Today's 65 were in some cases 2009 and previous years 67's. End of my story before I get booted for speaking my mind. I never thought I'd ever see the day where my Modern Lincoln business would go across the street but until they become realistic again my $$ goes elsewhere. I have no problem with their Classic grading and continue to send them my business.

Rampage · June 29, 2010 7:47AM

<< I got taken to the cleaners earlier this year by bulk with some superb 2008-D Lincolns and FY 2009's. I had some litterally near perfect coins (a few minor water spots, but technically 69's) get 66'd. - I cherried these off the top of a mint ballistic bag for crying out loud. I see someone got taken to the wood shed on the 2010-P' Shields (1375 MS65's - 1 MS66RD).
What are they hung up on? Is it counting marks, spots? Thoughts, I just got a group of great 2010-D's and want to make sure I am not missing something that use to not be an issue (spots). Is it just bulk? >>

By your post above, am I reading correctly that someone sent in a bulk submission of 1,376 cents? Seems rather expensive.

clackamas · June 29, 2010 7:58AM

<< 

<< I got taken to the cleaners earlier this year by bulk with some superb 2008-D Lincolns and FY 2009's. I had some litterally near perfect coins (a few minor water spots, but technically 69's) get 66'd. - I cherried these off the top of a mint ballistic bag for crying out loud. I see someone got taken to the wood shed on the 2010-P' Shields (1375 MS65's - 1 MS66RD).
What are they hung up on? Is it counting marks, spots? Thoughts, I just got a group of great 2010-D's and want to make sure I am not missing something that use to not be an issue (spots). Is it just bulk? >>

By your post above, am I reading correctly that someone sent in a bulk submission of 1,376 cents? Seems rather expensive. >>

I am extrapolating that, the graded POP in MS65 is 1375 and 1 in MS66, so I am assuming it was bulk, it could have been modern which would be much worse.

doh · June 29, 2010 8:01AM

<< This was discussed at length on the Registry boards. I made the one Philly 66 and about 5 of the Denvers in 66 so I feel very qualified to talk about their NEW standards. They HAVE changed their standards and I will NOT ever send them another 2010 and beyond Lincoln due to their 'changes." I believe I had some 67's that were thrown into their new 65 category. I now send all my new coppers to NGC where I have made about half of the 16 Philly's in 67. >>

So what's a PCGS 66 (or 7) worth compared to an NGC 67?

coinbuf · June 29, 2010 8:03AM

I wonder how long before this thread goes poof

. Strange results though, I would have though that with the deletion of the color guarrantee PCGS has no risk/downside so no reason to tighten the grading of coppper.

clackamas · June 29, 2010 8:16AM

<< 

<< This was discussed at length on the Registry boards. I made the one Philly 66 and about 5 of the Denvers in 66 so I feel very qualified to talk about their NEW standards. They HAVE changed their standards and I will NOT ever send them another 2010 and beyond Lincoln due to their 'changes." I believe I had some 67's that were thrown into their new 65 category. I now send all my new coppers to NGC where I have made about half of the 16 Philly's in 67. >>

So what's a PCGS 66 (or 7) worth compared to an NGC 67? >>

Don't know about an NGC coin, but a PCGS 67RD would bring a couple of hundred.

Bochiman · June 29, 2010 9:18AM

If they did have waterspots, I wouldn't call them a MS69 (even without the marks, etc). PCGS may be getting harsh with them like that, afraid they will turn after being holdered.
Their change in RD/RB/BN doesn't pertain to the actual grade, so, if they didn't count waterspots as negatives, many would and they would likely be pushed again and again to downgrade....and if the spotting got worse (akin to SAEs and spotting), then it could get pretty bad for them.

Also, they will NOT give a MS69 to a SAE that has any spotting....if they see it, no matter how difficult it is to see. So, this is not unprecedented

clackamas · June 29, 2010 9:38AM

<< If they did have waterspots, I wouldn't call them a MS69 (even without the marks, etc). PCGS may be getting harsh with them like that, afraid they will turn after being holdered.
Their change in RD/RB/BN doesn't pertain to the actual grade, so, if they didn't count waterspots as negatives, many would and they would likely be pushed again and again to downgrade....and if the spotting got worse (akin to SAEs and spotting), then it could get pretty bad for them.

Also, they will NOT give a MS69 to a SAE that has any spotting....if they see it, no matter how difficult it is to see. So, this is not unprecedented >>

It must be something like that, all Business strike coins have at least 1 spot. The pops are bearing this out, look at this, remind you these came in mint BU rolls as well, not bank rolls.

PCGS No. Item Deno Grade Pop Pop Higher
407237 2009 1C Early Childhood 1C MS66RD 866 16
407243 2009-D 1C Early Childhood 1C MS66RD 957 44
407831 2009 1C Formative Years 1C MS66RD 569 2
407844 2009-D 1C Formative Years 1C MS66RD 758 0
407850 2009 1C Professional 1C MS66RD 724 1
407859 2009-D 1C Professional 1C MS66RD 151 1
407868 2009 1C Presidency 1C MS66RD 283 3
407878 2009-D 1C Presidency 1C MS66RD 121 0

Out of 4429 coins graded MS66 only 67 MS67RD's or higher ~1.5%. This is a marked change from previous years.

Bochiman · June 29, 2010 12:37PM

<< It must be something like that, all Business strike coins have at least 1 spot. The pops are bearing this out, look at this, remind you these came in mint BU rolls as well, not bank rolls.

PCGS No. Item Deno Grade Pop Pop Higher
407237 2009 1C Early Childhood 1C MS66RD 866 16
407243 2009-D 1C Early Childhood 1C MS66RD 957 44
407831 2009 1C Formative Years 1C MS66RD 569 2
407844 2009-D 1C Formative Years 1C MS66RD 758 0
407850 2009 1C Professional 1C MS66RD 724 1
407859 2009-D 1C Professional 1C MS66RD 151 1
407868 2009 1C Presidency 1C MS66RD 283 3
407878 2009-D 1C Presidency 1C MS66RD 121 0

Out of 4429 coins graded MS66 only 67 MS67RD's or higher ~1.5%. This is a marked change from previous years. >>

I would believe that it is a marked change.....this was the year that they changed how they would treat copper designations and their guarantees as well.

wondercoin · June 29, 2010 2:39PM

I have noticed the newer cents from the past couple years tend to spot and tone a bit more than prior cents. Perhaps this plays into the grading of the coins.

I screened 25,000 2009 cents over a couple week period last year and I do not believe I was able to slab more than a single MS67RD from all the coins (if that many). So, I moved on. But, by no means assume that it is only MS Lincoln cents that are being strictly graded (and being "picked on"). Take a look at how few MS67 Pres $1 coins have been slabbed over the past year or so. Several thousand MS67's from 2007 have dwindled down to less than a handful for the "D" mint coins over the past year for example (and let's not forget the US Mint's role in all of this). On the other hand, the grading has been very consistent. Any suggestion that PCGS may have been a touch "easy" on ultra modern business strike coins a few years ago is no longer the case! Truly, if you think MS67RD Lincolns are tough to slab, try submitting business strike Pres $1 coins for quite the challenge! My son Justin comments on this situation in some detail in Eric Jordan's new book entitled "Modern Commemorative Coins" (pages 107-108).

Wondercoin

notwilight · June 29, 2010 3:16PM

<< 2010-P' Shields (1375 MS65's - 1 MS66RD). >>

Wow. .....

cupronik · June 29, 2010 4:15PM

Clackamas, your question is so tempting to answer here, but I don't want to jeopardize any of my future submissions

You certainly know how to pick out top-notch coins for grading. Maybe HRH or Don Willis care to answer?

Aw. . . . . . . don't you just love the conspiracy of silence???

Bochiman · June 29, 2010 4:30PM

<< 

<< 

<< It must be something like that, all Business strike coins have at least 1 spot. The pops are bearing this out, look at this, remind you these came in mint BU rolls as well, not bank rolls.

PCGS No. Item Deno Grade Pop Pop Higher
407237 2009 1C Early Childhood 1C MS66RD 866 16
407243 2009-D 1C Early Childhood 1C MS66RD 957 44
407831 2009 1C Formative Years 1C MS66RD 569 2
407844 2009-D 1C Formative Years 1C MS66RD 758 0
407850 2009 1C Professional 1C MS66RD 724 1
407859 2009-D 1C Professional 1C MS66RD 151 1
407868 2009 1C Presidency 1C MS66RD 283 3
407878 2009-D 1C Presidency 1C MS66RD 121 0

Out of 4429 coins graded MS66 only 67 MS67RD's or higher ~1.5%. This is a marked change from previous years. >>

I would believe that it is a marked change.....this was the year that they changed how they would treat copper designations and their guarantees as well. >>

If anything the guarantee changes should ease the grading a tad not tighten it. >>

No, I disagree. The changes are on designation and show a concern and a tightening. That isn't going to ease the grade. There is likely a real concern about seeing any spots on a modern coin and grading it too high given the buyback potential.

illini420 · June 29, 2010 5:46PM

I just find it really surprising there is only a single 2010 Lincoln graded MS66RD while there are well over a thousand 1909 Lincolns graded MS66RD or higher by the same company.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · June 29, 2010 8:54PM

Modern Crap !!!

Stewart

Manorcourtman · June 29, 2010 9:08PM

<< Modern Crap !!!

Stewart >>

If you only knew how tough the modern crap is to find as nice as some of your old crap.

mas3387 · June 29, 2010 9:09PM

We graded 300 - 400 of the 2010 P Lincolns and probably 200 - 250 of the D 2010's. We screened countless bags and boxes of them for these submissions and we received NOT 1 MS66 coin. In my opinion, as I did grade a few coins over the years, there are some nice MS66 in those holders. We also submitted a few batches of 5 – 10 coins which we thought where solid MS66’s or better and received the here ya go grade of MS65RD. We have not submitted any Lincolns in several months because of these grade outs. Heck how many more MS65RD coins coin we sell !!!!

I also agree with wondercoin on the presidential dollars, We got our butt kicked on a monster batch of coins that where hand selected from box screens and in my opinion MS67 quality.

Tdec1000 · June 29, 2010 10:21PM

<< Modern Crap !!!

Stewart >>

Stewart, and yet old early lincolns and bright red indian cents were one time modern crap of their day too.

ambro51 · June 29, 2010 11:47PM

PCGS is telling you in no uncertain terms that they doubt the stability of copper over zinc coins and anticipate long term negative effects of spotting on the surfaces of the coin.

They do NOT want to be responsible under grade guarantees for the future of hundreds to thousands of Lincoln Cents.

AND YES IT WOULD BE VERY VERY NICE IF MR. HALL OR MR. WILLIS WOULD TAKE THE TWO MINUTES OUT OF THEIR VERY VERY BUSY DAYS TO ADD A COMMENT ABOUT THEIR FEELINGS ON SEEMINGLY HIGH GRADE LINCOLNS BEING GRADED SO HARSH.

BillJones · June 30, 2010 12:30AM

Personally I would not want to have a lot of money tied up in copper coated zinc cents. We all know how reactive copper is, and how prone recent bronze cent issues have been because of planchet cleaning agents the mint has used. Zinc is even more reactive to chemicals and the atmosphere than copper. Nuff said. Buyer beware.

And no, I don't blame PCGS for refusing to back these fragile coins. They are not made to last.

I once owned a 1983 reverse doubled die cent in MS-66, red. It stayed nice for all the years I owned it (10 years +), but I sold it in part for that reason.

PerryHall · June 30, 2010 12:34AM

<< Personally I would not want to have a lot of money tied up in copper coated zinc cents. We all know how reactive copper is, and how prone recent bronze cent issues have been because of planchet cleaning agents the mint has used. Zinc is even more reactive to chemicals and the atmosphere than copper. Nuff said. Buyer beware.

And no, I don't blame PCGS for refusing to back these fragile coins. They are not made to last. >>

If these coins are so fragile, PCGS should refuse to grade them rather than undergrade them.

Bochiman · June 30, 2010 1:43AM

<< 

<< Modern Crap !!!

Stewart >>

If you only knew how tough the modern crap is to find as nice as some of your old crap. >>

I thought Steward was just complaining because all the posters are younger than him

mas3387 · June 30, 2010 1:52AM

<< << Modern Crap !!! Stewart >>

I thought Steward was just complaining because all the posters are younger than him >>

That's the usual answer when there is nothing better to say.

wondercoin · June 30, 2010 2:28AM

Nearly every coin essentially starts out as "modern crap"... it has been that way for thousands of years - right?

At some point, certain coins take on value and in a few cases, that value increases and increases and increases. Those who can figure out the fastest which "modern crap" will fall into the increased value category can do very, very well in building a world class collection for as little as "pennies on the dollar" or fund their other pursuits by selling these special coins to others who desire them. Isn't it that simple?

Wondercoin

mas3387 · June 30, 2010 3:41AM

1 1 16090257 416668 2010 1C Shield US MS65RD

Above is results from our Secure Plus submission that was just completed. This was my final attempt to get a 2010 Shield Lincoln graded right

clackamas · June 30, 2010 3:50AM

<< I just find it really surprising there is only a single 2010 Lincoln graded MS66RD while there are well over a thousand 1909 Lincolns graded MS66RD or higher by the same company. >>

When put in that context, you made my point so much better. Does that not sound utterly amazing or telling?

ambro51 · June 30, 2010 4:16AM

I think what it is telling you is that every black pool spot, water spot or whatever you want to call it is viewed as just a serious flaw on the coins surface as a planchet nick or abrasion. Find a new lincoln cent witnout any spots and you have a higher grade coin, The catch is of course that the US Mint has not created a lincoln cent without these spots. (unless you count the 37 or so that PCGS has graded MS70RD. these coins may be the ONLY ones that do NOT have spiots).

clackamas · June 30, 2010 4:22AM

<< I think what it is telling you is that every black pool spot, water spot or whatever you want to call it is viewed as just a serious flaw on the coins surface as a planchet nick or abrasion. Find a new lincoln cent witnout any spots and you have a higher grade coin, The catch is of course that the US Mint has not created a lincoln cent without these spots. (unless you count the 37 or so that PCGS has graded MS70RD. these coins may be the ONLY ones that do NOT have spiots). >>

I agree that may very well be the case, but it has not always been like that, hence the confusion. If it is, an announcement to the community at large should be made, and we will include that in the screening of the coins. It is of course a near impossible task to find such a coin, because the mint washes all of them.

ambro51 · June 30, 2010 8:54AM

You are totally correct the grading has became brutally difficult. Just take a look at Heritage Archives,....at images of the MS68 zinc lincolns from Jack Lee....they are loaded with black spots...loaded. And from what Im seeing with the 09 and 10 coins Ive seen so far I do feel that the spotting has diminished.

Yes sometimes I look at a PCGS slabbed coin...really LOOK a a coin and wonder how graders can see four seperate levels of grade ABOVE what I have in my hand, a coin which looks perfect....four more levels of grade....

I did notice that the Close sale 2006 SF MS70RD went for $1750, against price guide for $1300.

The GrAdE HuNgRy collectors would pee their pants at present if a MS70 business strike lincoln was created....and probably get just as excited at a 69 being made. And you know for cetrain that these coins DO exist...using the same grading criterion that is applied so freely to commerative among other types...So yes I do feel that the lincolns of morern issue are being graded with a skew, possibly an ulterior motive by PCGS to reduce liability over the long term. To have a highly superior top pop coin forming, say a 69 in a date and MM where 66 may have been the previous top pop grade....I cannot imagine how the auction on that piece would go....or how one would value it!

So heres whats came to...the big main submittors of raw lincolns for grading have became disillusioned. No doubt if the trend continues, less and less of these will be submitted.. Over the long term, it means that circulation and poor handling will claim most, atmospheric contaminants and the reaction of the zinc and copper will take out a good percentage of that remnant....a lot will be stashed away informally, boxes, home rolls.....some will be carefully handpicked and put into some 14 year olds whitman....and a small...very small percentage will have been handpicked, profesionally graded and correctly encapsulated to preservfe them in a high state for the future. It very well could be that in 100 years, the small number of survivng intact TPG slabs may command Moon Money with that generation of collectors.

So we must continue to submit.......Id like some of you pro submittors to have some GOOD photos taken of your top choices and then let us know the outcome.

smokincoin · June 30, 2010 10:08AM

I, just now, searched 1 roll and this was the best one...

It looked decent to me and I figured, after reading this thread the past couple of days, that it might go 64 and maybe 65 on a lucky day . Just a few minor spots until... I changed the lighting and angle...

Modern Submitters - take on PCGS with New copper - thoughts on the harsh grading

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