"SCRATCHES of a very minor nature may permit a coin to be certified, but use of this term in Details Grading indicates that the damage is more severe." >>
It might help someone who is not familiar with NGC....... Again, "buy the coin and not the holder!"
Leo >>
>>
SCRATCHES of a very minor nature I conceded on the "severe" adjective. But very minor? I dont think that scratch is VERY minor. I dont know how closely people looked at the coin, but it had what I conisder VERY minor scratches all over the place, underlined in yellow below. And the one bigger scratch in red to me crossed the threshold of "very minor". This is a big coin. Bigger than a Morgan dollar at 39mm. This scratch would span across a quarter dollar coin and then some so imagine this scratch on a dime or quarter. But again, in the end this wasnt about NGC's grade. The seller offered me a return if there was "damage not seen in the scan". Whether it was acceptable damage to most or not it didnt matter, the acceptable part was left up for me to decide, otherwise his return should have read "no returns on slabbed coins":
otherwise his return should have read "no returns on slabbed coins.........
......that are all scratched up!
Yeah, I wouldn't wish anyone to eat something like that coin if its avoidable.
It's like this. If I allow a coin into my collection that has a very noticeable nick or scratch then my entire collection has the problem. Of course, while I like to believe this, due to what I collect, that hasn't been altogether possible.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
SCRATCHES of a very minor nature I conceded on the "severe" adjective. But very minor? I dont think that scratch is VERY minor. I dont know how closely people looked at the coin, but it had what I conisder VERY minor scratches all over the place, underlined in yellow below. And the one bigger scratch in red to me crossed the threshold of "very minor". This is a big coin. Bigger than a Morgan dollar at 39mm. This scratch would span across a quarter dollar coin and then some so imagine this scratch on a dime or quarter. But again, in the end this wasnt about NGC's grade. The seller offered me a return if there was "damage not seen in the scan". Whether it was acceptable damage to most or not it didnt matter, the acceptable part was left up for me to decide, otherwise his return should have read "no returns on slabbed coins":
>>
You've just highlighted circulation chatter. You can get hits like that on Mint State Morgan dollars with ease. Those are NOT scratches. And, as you mentioned, it's a big coin. They hit each other in the minting process and bags, and they have the mass to impart hits on one another.
As a seller on Ebay you soon learn anything can be returned wether you like it not. I would think very few coins get returned if you looked at the numbers. I have had a few over the years and i assume others have also. If you are trying to dump product on ebay for undeserved prices i can see where a return might irk you if you end up selling it a lot cheaper the next time around.
Ebay should have a PLAIN return policy for everyone and stick to it. You end up with a lot of weird worded return policy. I do not read most of them but if i do not like something i bought in the past i just resold it and went on down the road. The new fee structure and the present economy has made that harder to do and break even.
I just looked at my ebay and realized that somehow i have been selling with no returns accepted, not sure how that happened although i show further down you can return anything as long as not been tampered with. But Ebay has made me eat a coin that was broken out of a slab by the buyer in the past.
Dealer or no dealer when you sell on ebay, anything can happen. I quit selling coins over 500 dollars becasue that is my pain threshold for getting burned, others have a higher or lower amount.
While i may respect your returns, no returns ebay does make the buyers feel the same way. If ebay allowed NO returns and all auctions were absolute (which i feel auctions should be) coin sells would slow to a trickle.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
[IMG] You can get hits like that on Mint State Morgan dollars with ease. Those are NOT scratches. And, as you mentioned, it's a big coin. They hit each other in the minting process and bags, and they have the mass to impart hits on one another. >>
That's fine, I wont argue agasint your point because in many cases you are correct. However there are coins that have them and coins that dont in the same/similar grade. I want one that doesnt have them, or as many, or as large. Since the pictures didnt show this one to have them...
<< <i>That's fine, I wont argue agasint your point because in many cases you are correct. However there are coins that have them and coins that dont in the same/similar grade. I want one that doesnt have them, or as many, or as large. Since the pictures didnt show this one to have them... >>
Please show me an AU55 that doesn't have chatter. If I showed anyone on the boards 100 pictures like the one listed in the auction, nobody could properly describe any of the coins. It is ridiculous to think that on such a poor picture you could get any feel for details. If there were a large, clear picture, maybe there'd be a valid point (albeit the chatter is still par for the course and expected), but this picture? Not a chance.
Clearly, what you want to do is buy a coin sight-seen. In the future, either buy with a liberal return policy, get a dealer you trust to find the coin, or buy it at a show/shop.
<< <i>That's fine, I wont argue agasint your point because in many cases you are correct. However there are coins that have them and coins that dont in the same/similar grade. I want one that doesnt have them, or as many, or as large. Since the pictures didnt show this one to have them... >>
Please show me an AU55 that doesn't have chatter. If I showed anyone on the boards 100 pictures like the one listed in the auction, nobody could properly describe any of the coins. It is ridiculous to think that on such a poor picture you could get any feel for details. If there were a large, clear picture, maybe there'd be a valid point (albeit the chatter is still par for the course and expected), but this picture? Not a chance.
Clearly, what you want to do is buy a coin sight-seen. In the future, either buy with a liberal return policy, get a dealer you trust to find the coin, or buy it at a show/shop. >>
Well I posted an AU 58 with nothing near that amount of "chatter". Is there that much of a differnece between an AU 58 and a 55? If so is the dropoff the same magnitude to 53? What in the world is an a 50 going to look like then...
I risk sounding like a whiner conituning to respond to every post. But I have decided for 2 reasons to do so anyway. #1 I know in the end I will learn something, whehter right or wrong. #2 this thread's theme was not about this. It was a "How do I make sure I dont get scammed on a return" thread. As such the accusatory overtones that I may have violated ethics I take very serious, because I am new to both buying and selling, albeit on a very small scale on both fronts.
However logically I do not feel at fault. And so I pose the question, who is more ethically responsible, the dealer who sells with bad pics, or the buyer who buys from bad pics? Yes the decision is the buyer's to choose what he buys. But is the seller not responsible to deliver what he portrays? If I can not see something on a coin due to a scan, is it any different than not seeing something on big hi def picture? as you yourself have pointed out, even hi def pictures sometimes dont show everything. Buyers cant scam sellers by paying too little(not in the same way anyway), but sellers can scam buyers by hiding the whole picture. So who is closer to scamming, (even though that is a harsh word and I do not imply it in its true meaning, but rather use it as an extreme to highlight my point) the seller who does not reveal a coins flaws, acceptable or not...or a the buyer in this case who was not happy with the purchase and felt thru and thru that he was in line with the return policy?
<< <i>Well I posted an AU 58 with nothing near that amount of "chatter". Is there that much of a differnece between an AU 58 and a 55? If so is the dropoff the same magnitude to 53? What in the world is an a 50 going to look like then... >>
Study a lot of coins and you'll know. AU58 is an odd grade because a coin can be MS67, have a tiny rub, and thus be AU58. Or it can be MS62, have a slight rub, and thus be AU58. One will be very clean, one have a ton of chatter. Enough chatter and they might bring it down to AU55. That said, the lower the grade, the more wear and often the more chatter. Just because two coins are separated by one grade increment does not imply they are nearly identical. Look at a high-end MS64 and a low-end MS63 Morgan dollar and the difference is night and day.
<< <i>However logically I do not feel at fault. And so I pose the question, who is more ethically responsible, the dealer who sells with bad pics, or the buyer who buys from bad pics? Yes the decision is the buyer's to choose what he buys. But is the seller not responsible to deliver what he portrays? If I can not see something on a coin due to a scan, is it any different than not seeing something on big hi def picture? as you yourself have pointed out, even hi def pictures sometimes dont show everything. Buyers cant scam sellers by paying too little(not in the same way anyway), but sellers can scam buyers by hiding the whole picture. So who is closer to scamming, (even though that is a harsh word and I do not imply it in its true meaning, but rather use it as an extreme to highlight my point) the seller who does not reveal a coins flaws, acceptable or not...or a the buyer in this case who was not happy with the purchase and felt thru and thru that he was in line with the return policy? >>
Honestly, it depends. I always assume that I'm dealing with rational people, poor as that may be. Bad pictures can come to be for two reasons:
1- The seller is deceptive 2- The seller is not a photographer
If a picture is otherwise good, but his specifically angled to hide flaws, then that is deception. Look at GreatSouthernCoins' auctions to see how you can light cleaned pieces so they look like gems.
If a picture is small, shows no detail, and was obviously not produced with the capabilities of top photographers, then you must know that it is lacking. Buyers can, indeed, "scam" sellers by paying too little. I've gotten great bargains from poor pictures, but I was willing to take the loss had I been wrong. Similarly, if I'm not positive about the picture, and there's risk (ie, no return), I won't bid strong money. That's the seller's loss.
Hi-resolution pictures may not be able to show every last flaw, but anything major should be visible. Here, it looks like you're saying that you want to see every last piece of chatter, the summary of which is the grade. In that case, buying from a picture is clearly not for you.
Given that the coin is, indeed, the one photographed, and given that the pictures were--as you know--atrocious, and given that the overwhelming majority of people here have told you that the marks you're seeing are commensurate with the grade the coin received, I simply don't see how you have a case to say that the coin met the specifications of the return policy. ESPECIALLY GIVEN THAT IT REQUIRED YOU TO SEND THE COIN TO PCGS OR NGC AND HAVE THEM REJECT IT. Clearly, unless NGC changed their mind, they weren't going to put it in a details holder. Along those lines, returned/relisted coins often sell for less, so the return does do harm to the seller.
In all, it seems like you may need to look at a lot more coins to understand what each grade level really looks like. You can't expect everything to be perfect, especially when the grade is far from it. I would highly suggest sticking to purchases in-hand, or from more reputable sellers with much better images. But, if you're going to take the gamble, you need to be prepared to lose. In Vegas, you don't get your chips back when you hit on a 12 and bust with 22. Any gamble is just that, and you have to know what you're willing to lose based on the expected return.
Frankly, I think if OP expects all AU pieces to look like the 58 he owns, then he should plan on returning a lot of coins. The AU58 OP owns is a monster for a 58. It would be hard to find even another 58 that would hold up to that standard, much less this coin, which is a tad generously graded 55 with bagmarks and toning.
I do not believe i have ever returned a coin but if a ebay seller has a no return policy i would be leary from the start that he is selling problems that he could not sell if buyers saw the coins in hand.
Other than a inconvience i do not see what the big problem is in returning a coin bought off of ebay. I would think most agree that ebay is set up to protect the buyer over sellers. So what is the big deal?
How am i suppose to know what sellers are good and bad, feedback is not a great way to figure that out. I buy a lot of coins and other stuff off of ebay because i know that if i FEEL I have be slighted the least little bit Ebay will make it right for me.
I know that when i buy a coin from Heritage at auction i can not return it (except some internet weekly one) I know generally at a coin show i can not return a coin ( unless i make a prior agreement beforehand) I know that I CAN return a coin i win from Teletrade I know what the local B& M return policy is I know that most online dealers will accept a return on a coin bought from their website or i can look at their policy
EBAY is a VERY DIFFERNT Animal and that to entice me to shop there with anonmous dealers, would be dealers, crooks, scammers, moms cleaning the garage, sellers that can come and go in the blink of an eye EBAY has to assure me that they (EBAY) will protect me if i feel slighted for any reason. You as a seller can have any type of policy you want but EBAY gets to make the call when a buyer feels he has an issue. At your store, your website, a coin show or actual coin auction (Heritage, Teletrade, Bowers, Stacks) a local B&M i will play by YOUR POLICIES, when i shop ebay i play by EBAYS, the same ones you agreed to when you decided to use EBAY as an outlet for your sales.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>Other than a inconvience i do not see what the big problem is in returning a coin bought off of ebay. I would think most agree that ebay is set up to protect the buyer over sellers. So what is the big deal? >>
As I mentioned, returned items can often sell for much less the second time around. Some buyers may think foul play (shill bidding), others might assume there is a problem when there might not be. I've had on rare occasion coins returned because they just didn't fit with someone's collection--nothing wrong per se and nothing missing from the description--and the resale price can be a significant percentage less.
<< <i> EBAY is a VERY DIFFERNT Animal and that to entice me to shop there with anonmous dealers, would be dealers, crooks, scammers, moms cleaning the garage, sellers that can come and go in the blink of an eye EBAY has to assure me that they (EBAY) will protect me if i feel slighted for any reason. You as a seller can have any type of policy you want but EBAY gets to make the call when a buyer feels he has an issue. At your store, your website, a coin show or actual coin auction (Heritage, Teletrade, Bowers, Stacks) a local B&M i will play by YOUR POLICIES, when i shop ebay i play by EBAYS, the same ones you agreed to when you decided to use EBAY as an outlet for your sales. >>
Just because you CAN do something doesn't make it right. eBay does let sellers sell without a return policy, and barring something terrible, ethics says you abide by that. If the coin is counterfeit or miserably damaged, fine, you have a case. But if the coin is just not quite what you wanted, then no, it's not okay to force a return. The problem here is a buyer's attitude that they can do no wrong. It is absolutely ridiculous to go into a transaction while disregarding the rules, figuring that big brother will protect you for any ridiculous claim you may want to make.
And again, I'll repeat it. eBay's policy is that a seller IS ALLOWED TO SELL WITHOUT A RETURN POLICY. That you can claim something, however minor, to force a return is irrelevant--doing so is absolutely unethical. Would you go to Disney Land figuring that if it wasn't the happiest place on earth, you could do a chargeback and claim you didn't get what was advertised? No. Same thing here. If you don't like a seller's rules, move on.
<< <i>Frankly, I think if OP expects all AU pieces to look like the 58 he owns, then he should plan on returning a lot of coins. The AU58 OP owns is a monster for a 58. It would be hard to find even another 58 that would hold up to that standard, much less this coin, which is a tad generously graded 55 with bagmarks and toning. >>
That 58 is in fact a monster and as APN noted, I do realize that 58s can be anything from a 64 to a 67. I would hope that a 62 would defulat to 55 as obviously any problem it has at the MS level would knock it below the 58. Its easy to think of a 58 as a gem level for AU coins. But all that being said I still feel the same way about that 55. There are many nice 55s. I owned a gorgeous seated quarter in 55 that has a new owner here on the forums and that coin had set certain epectaions for me. Granted it was a PCGS 55. Anyway here is more of the monster 58. The reverse is even more glorious.
Seller received item, issued refund and even left good feedback(which I did too). Yes I feel bad but I am hoping returning a coin is like wacking somebody, gets easier each time you do it?
Yes I feel bad but I am hoping returning a coin is like wacking somebody, gets easier each time you do it?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Airplanenut- You make great points and i agree but i do not believe the vast majority of ebay shoppers feel that way. I have sold over 2500 (probably more) items and have dealt with all kinds of people all wanting this or that. As i have stated before i do not believe i have ever return anything on ebay even when i have recieved items that were not as described, looked vastly different in hand, or many other issues. But i like the fact that if i really feel i have an issue that EBAY will see that i am made whole. If ebay was to start siding with the sellers all of the time i would no longer play there as a buyer.
I see nothing wrong with what the OP did here, if i bought the exact coin for the exact price i might not have an issue with it, but i will not tell you wether you are ethicly right or wrong from posted pics.
If someone asked 20 people to pick out the color midnight blue from 100 different shades of blue i doubt all 20 will pick the exact same one. They are feel like they picked out the color midnight blue.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>That 58 is in fact a monster and as APN noted, I do realize that 58s can be anything from a 64 to a 67. I would hope that a 62 would defulat to 55 as obviously any problem it has at the MS level would knock it below the 58. Its easy to think of a 58 as a gem level for AU coins. But all that being said I still feel the same way about that 55. There are many nice 55s. I owned a gorgeous seated quarter in 55 that has a new owner here on the forums and that coin had set certain epectaions for me. Granted it was a PCGS 55. Anyway here is more of the monster 58. The reverse is even more glorious. >>
AU58 can be lower than a 64 with rub. I highly suggest looking at some grading guides to get a feel for what the grades mean. Especially in AU, there's a lot at play amongst the combination of wear and chatter. Just because you have or have seen a monster at any grade level is no guarantee that all coins will be like that. The reason I pay premiums for great coins is because they deserve it, regardless of how the average coin at that grade level looks..
<< <i> Just because you have or have seen a monster at any grade level is no guarantee that all coins will be like that.
The reason I pay premiums for great coins is because they deserve it, regardless of how the average coin at that grade level looks..
Average coins are great coins? Coins that you pay a premium for? IMO, monster coins are the great coins.
Did you contradict yourself? It certainly doesn't read right.
Leo >>
He didn't say average coins are great coins or that he pays a premium for average coins. He said he pays premiums for great coins. >>
The reason I pay premiums for great coins is because they deserve it, regardless of how the average coin at that grade level looks..
Sure sounds like, "buy the holder and not the coin" to me.
Leo >>
He buys the coin ("great coins") not the holder, "because they deserve it". And to him, it doesn't matter what the "average coin at that grade level looks" - he doesn't buy those.
<< <i>That 58 is in fact a monster and as APN noted, I do realize that 58s can be anything from a 64 to a 67. I would hope that a 62 would defulat to 55 as obviously any problem it has at the MS level would knock it below the 58. Its easy to think of a 58 as a gem level for AU coins. But all that being said I still feel the same way about that 55. There are many nice 55s. I owned a gorgeous seated quarter in 55 that has a new owner here on the forums and that coin had set certain epectaions for me. Granted it was a PCGS 55. Anyway here is more of the monster 58. The reverse is even more glorious. >>
AU58 can be lower than a 64 with rub. I highly suggest looking at some grading guides to get a feel for what the grades mean. Especially in AU, there's a lot at play amongst the combination of wear and chatter. Just because you have or have seen a monster at any grade level is no guarantee that all coins will be like that. The reason I pay premiums for great coins is because they deserve it, regardless of how the average coin at that grade level looks.. >>
Every dollar over spot or face is technically a premium so that isnt really saying anything until you use a starting point. That starting point is the market price and the market price is determined, realisticaly, by the grade it is in. I am not disagreeing with you on that portion. I paid a premium for this coin because I thought it was a great coin. I was wrong. I returned it. I bought a great coin instead. But my coin is great for a 58, relative to other 58s or in this case relative to the 55 I returned. Relative to a 67 my coin is a POS. I dont see how you can ignore the relationship to other coins in the same grade.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, I guess it all depends on one's opinion on how long and deep a scratch needs to be before it constitutes damage on a coin... >>
Does this help?
"SCRATCHES of a very minor nature may permit a coin to be certified, but use of this term in Details Grading indicates that the damage is more severe." >>
It might help someone who is not familiar with NGC....... Again, "buy the coin and not the holder!"
Leo >>
>>
SCRATCHES of a very minor nature I conceded on the "severe" adjective. But very minor? I dont think that scratch is VERY minor. I dont know how closely people looked at the coin, but it had what I conisder VERY minor scratches all over the place, underlined in yellow below. And the one bigger scratch in red to me crossed the threshold of "very minor". This is a big coin. Bigger than a Morgan dollar at 39mm. This scratch would span across a quarter dollar coin and then some so imagine this scratch on a dime or quarter. But again, in the end this wasnt about NGC's grade. The seller offered me a return if there was "damage not seen in the scan". Whether it was acceptable damage to most or not it didnt matter, the acceptable part was left up for me to decide, otherwise his return should have read "no returns on slabbed coins":
......that are all scratched up!
Yeah, I wouldn't wish anyone to eat something like that coin if its avoidable.
It's like this. If I allow a coin into my collection that has a very noticeable nick or scratch then my entire collection has the problem. Of course, while I like to believe this, due to what I collect, that hasn't been altogether possible.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
SCRATCHES of a very minor nature I conceded on the "severe" adjective. But very minor? I dont think that scratch is VERY minor. I dont know how closely people looked at the coin, but it had what I conisder VERY minor scratches all over the place, underlined in yellow below. And the one bigger scratch in red to me crossed the threshold of "very minor". This is a big coin. Bigger than a Morgan dollar at 39mm. This scratch would span across a quarter dollar coin and then some so imagine this scratch on a dime or quarter. But again, in the end this wasnt about NGC's grade. The seller offered me a return if there was "damage not seen in the scan". Whether it was acceptable damage to most or not it didnt matter, the acceptable part was left up for me to decide, otherwise his return should have read "no returns on slabbed coins":
You've just highlighted circulation chatter. You can get hits like that on Mint State Morgan dollars with ease. Those are NOT scratches. And, as you mentioned, it's a big coin. They hit each other in the minting process and bags, and they have the mass to impart hits on one another.
Ebay should have a PLAIN return policy for everyone and stick to it. You end up with a lot of weird worded return policy. I do not read most of them but if i do not like something i bought in the past i just resold it and went on down the road. The new fee structure and the present economy has made that harder to do and break even.
I just looked at my ebay and realized that somehow i have been selling with no returns accepted, not sure how that happened although i show further down you can return anything as long as not been tampered with. But Ebay has made me eat a coin that was broken out of a slab by the buyer in the past.
Dealer or no dealer when you sell on ebay, anything can happen. I quit selling coins over 500 dollars becasue that is my pain threshold for getting burned, others have a higher or lower amount.
While i may respect your returns, no returns ebay does make the buyers feel the same way. If ebay allowed NO returns and all auctions were absolute (which i feel auctions should be) coin sells would slow to a trickle.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>
[IMG] You can get hits like that on Mint State Morgan dollars with ease. Those are NOT scratches. And, as you mentioned, it's a big coin. They hit each other in the minting process and bags, and they have the mass to impart hits on one another. >>
That's fine, I wont argue agasint your point because in many cases you are correct. However there are coins that have them and coins that dont in the same/similar grade. I want one that doesnt have them, or as many, or as large. Since the pictures didnt show this one to have them...
<< <i>That's fine, I wont argue agasint your point because in many cases you are correct. However there are coins that have them and coins that dont in the same/similar grade. I want one that doesnt have them, or as many, or as large. Since the pictures didnt show this one to have them...
>>
Please show me an AU55 that doesn't have chatter. If I showed anyone on the boards 100 pictures like the one listed in the auction, nobody could properly describe any of the coins. It is ridiculous to think that on such a poor picture you could get any feel for details. If there were a large, clear picture, maybe there'd be a valid point (albeit the chatter is still par for the course and expected), but this picture? Not a chance.
Clearly, what you want to do is buy a coin sight-seen. In the future, either buy with a liberal return policy, get a dealer you trust to find the coin, or buy it at a show/shop.
<< <i>
<< <i>That's fine, I wont argue agasint your point because in many cases you are correct. However there are coins that have them and coins that dont in the same/similar grade. I want one that doesnt have them, or as many, or as large. Since the pictures didnt show this one to have them...
>>
Please show me an AU55 that doesn't have chatter. If I showed anyone on the boards 100 pictures like the one listed in the auction, nobody could properly describe any of the coins. It is ridiculous to think that on such a poor picture you could get any feel for details. If there were a large, clear picture, maybe there'd be a valid point (albeit the chatter is still par for the course and expected), but this picture? Not a chance.
Clearly, what you want to do is buy a coin sight-seen. In the future, either buy with a liberal return policy, get a dealer you trust to find the coin, or buy it at a show/shop. >>
Well I posted an AU 58 with nothing near that amount of "chatter". Is there that much of a differnece between an AU 58 and a 55? If so is the dropoff the same magnitude to 53? What in the world is an a 50 going to look like then...
I risk sounding like a whiner conituning to respond to every post. But I have decided for 2 reasons to do so anyway. #1 I know in the end I will learn something, whehter right or wrong. #2 this thread's theme was not about this. It was a "How do I make sure I dont get scammed on a return" thread. As such the accusatory overtones that I may have violated ethics I take very serious, because I am new to both buying and selling, albeit on a very small scale on both fronts.
However logically I do not feel at fault. And so I pose the question, who is more ethically responsible, the dealer who sells with bad pics, or the buyer who buys from bad pics? Yes the decision is the buyer's to choose what he buys. But is the seller not responsible to deliver what he portrays? If I can not see something on a coin due to a scan, is it any different than not seeing something on big hi def picture? as you yourself have pointed out, even hi def pictures sometimes dont show everything. Buyers cant scam sellers by paying too little(not in the same way anyway), but sellers can scam buyers by hiding the whole picture. So who is closer to scamming, (even though that is a harsh word and I do not imply it in its true meaning, but rather use it as an extreme to highlight my point) the seller who does not reveal a coins flaws, acceptable or not...or a the buyer in this case who was not happy with the purchase and felt thru and thru that he was in line with the return policy?
<< <i>Well I posted an AU 58 with nothing near that amount of "chatter". Is there that much of a differnece between an AU 58 and a 55? If so is the dropoff the same magnitude to 53? What in the world is an a 50 going to look like then... >>
Study a lot of coins and you'll know. AU58 is an odd grade because a coin can be MS67, have a tiny rub, and thus be AU58. Or it can be MS62, have a slight rub, and thus be AU58. One will be very clean, one have a ton of chatter. Enough chatter and they might bring it down to AU55. That said, the lower the grade, the more wear and often the more chatter. Just because two coins are separated by one grade increment does not imply they are nearly identical. Look at a high-end MS64 and a low-end MS63 Morgan dollar and the difference is night and day.
<< <i>However logically I do not feel at fault. And so I pose the question, who is more ethically responsible, the dealer who sells with bad pics, or the buyer who buys from bad pics? Yes the decision is the buyer's to choose what he buys. But is the seller not responsible to deliver what he portrays? If I can not see something on a coin due to a scan, is it any different than not seeing something on big hi def picture? as you yourself have pointed out, even hi def pictures sometimes dont show everything. Buyers cant scam sellers by paying too little(not in the same way anyway), but sellers can scam buyers by hiding the whole picture. So who is closer to scamming, (even though that is a harsh word and I do not imply it in its true meaning, but rather use it as an extreme to highlight my point) the seller who does not reveal a coins flaws, acceptable or not...or a the buyer in this case who was not happy with the purchase and felt thru and thru that he was in line with the return policy? >>
Honestly, it depends. I always assume that I'm dealing with rational people, poor as that may be. Bad pictures can come to be for two reasons:
1- The seller is deceptive
2- The seller is not a photographer
If a picture is otherwise good, but his specifically angled to hide flaws, then that is deception. Look at GreatSouthernCoins' auctions to see how you can light cleaned pieces so they look like gems.
If a picture is small, shows no detail, and was obviously not produced with the capabilities of top photographers, then you must know that it is lacking. Buyers can, indeed, "scam" sellers by paying too little. I've gotten great bargains from poor pictures, but I was willing to take the loss had I been wrong. Similarly, if I'm not positive about the picture, and there's risk (ie, no return), I won't bid strong money. That's the seller's loss.
Hi-resolution pictures may not be able to show every last flaw, but anything major should be visible. Here, it looks like you're saying that you want to see every last piece of chatter, the summary of which is the grade. In that case, buying from a picture is clearly not for you.
Given that the coin is, indeed, the one photographed, and given that the pictures were--as you know--atrocious, and given that the overwhelming majority of people here have told you that the marks you're seeing are commensurate with the grade the coin received, I simply don't see how you have a case to say that the coin met the specifications of the return policy. ESPECIALLY GIVEN THAT IT REQUIRED YOU TO SEND THE COIN TO PCGS OR NGC AND HAVE THEM REJECT IT. Clearly, unless NGC changed their mind, they weren't going to put it in a details holder. Along those lines, returned/relisted coins often sell for less, so the return does do harm to the seller.
In all, it seems like you may need to look at a lot more coins to understand what each grade level really looks like. You can't expect everything to be perfect, especially when the grade is far from it. I would highly suggest sticking to purchases in-hand, or from more reputable sellers with much better images. But, if you're going to take the gamble, you need to be prepared to lose. In Vegas, you don't get your chips back when you hit on a 12 and bust with 22. Any gamble is just that, and you have to know what you're willing to lose based on the expected return.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Other than a inconvience i do not see what the big problem is in returning a coin bought off of ebay. I would think most agree that ebay is set up to protect the buyer over sellers. So what is the big deal?
How am i suppose to know what sellers are good and bad, feedback is not a great way to figure that out. I buy a lot of coins and other stuff off of ebay because i know that if i FEEL I have be slighted the least little bit Ebay will make it right for me.
I know that when i buy a coin from Heritage at auction i can not return it (except some internet weekly one)
I know generally at a coin show i can not return a coin ( unless i make a prior agreement beforehand)
I know that I CAN return a coin i win from Teletrade
I know what the local B& M return policy is
I know that most online dealers will accept a return on a coin bought from their website or i can look at their policy
EBAY is a VERY DIFFERNT Animal and that to entice me to shop there with anonmous dealers, would be dealers, crooks, scammers, moms cleaning the garage, sellers that can come and go in the blink of an eye EBAY has to assure me that they (EBAY) will protect me if i feel slighted for any reason. You as a seller can have any type of policy you want but EBAY gets to make the call when a buyer feels he has an issue. At your store, your website, a coin show or actual coin auction (Heritage, Teletrade, Bowers, Stacks) a local B&M i will play by YOUR POLICIES, when i shop ebay i play by EBAYS, the same ones you agreed to when you decided to use EBAY as an outlet for your sales.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>Other than a inconvience i do not see what the big problem is in returning a coin bought off of ebay. I would think most agree that ebay is set up to protect the buyer over sellers. So what is the big deal? >>
As I mentioned, returned items can often sell for much less the second time around. Some buyers may think foul play (shill bidding), others might assume there is a problem when there might not be. I've had on rare occasion coins returned because they just didn't fit with someone's collection--nothing wrong per se and nothing missing from the description--and the resale price can be a significant percentage less.
<< <i>
EBAY is a VERY DIFFERNT Animal and that to entice me to shop there with anonmous dealers, would be dealers, crooks, scammers, moms cleaning the garage, sellers that can come and go in the blink of an eye EBAY has to assure me that they (EBAY) will protect me if i feel slighted for any reason. You as a seller can have any type of policy you want but EBAY gets to make the call when a buyer feels he has an issue. At your store, your website, a coin show or actual coin auction (Heritage, Teletrade, Bowers, Stacks) a local B&M i will play by YOUR POLICIES, when i shop ebay i play by EBAYS, the same ones you agreed to when you decided to use EBAY as an outlet for your sales. >>
Just because you CAN do something doesn't make it right. eBay does let sellers sell without a return policy, and barring something terrible, ethics says you abide by that. If the coin is counterfeit or miserably damaged, fine, you have a case. But if the coin is just not quite what you wanted, then no, it's not okay to force a return. The problem here is a buyer's attitude that they can do no wrong. It is absolutely ridiculous to go into a transaction while disregarding the rules, figuring that big brother will protect you for any ridiculous claim you may want to make.
And again, I'll repeat it. eBay's policy is that a seller IS ALLOWED TO SELL WITHOUT A RETURN POLICY. That you can claim something, however minor, to force a return is irrelevant--doing so is absolutely unethical. Would you go to Disney Land figuring that if it wasn't the happiest place on earth, you could do a chargeback and claim you didn't get what was advertised? No. Same thing here. If you don't like a seller's rules, move on.
<< <i>Frankly, I think if OP expects all AU pieces to look like the 58 he owns, then he should plan on returning a lot of coins. The AU58 OP owns is a monster for a 58. It would be hard to find even another 58 that would hold up to that standard, much less this coin, which is a tad generously graded 55 with bagmarks and toning. >>
That 58 is in fact a monster and as APN noted, I do realize that 58s can be anything from a 64 to a 67. I would hope that a 62 would defulat to 55 as obviously any problem it has at the MS level would knock it below the 58. Its easy to think of a 58 as a gem level for AU coins. But all that being said I still feel the same way about that 55. There are many nice 55s. I owned a gorgeous seated quarter in 55 that has a new owner here on the forums and that coin had set certain epectaions for me. Granted it was a PCGS 55. Anyway here is more of the monster 58. The reverse is even more glorious.
<< <i>Seller received item, issued refund and even left good feedback(which I did too). >>
Glad this all worked out.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I see nothing wrong with what the OP did here, if i bought the exact coin for the exact price i might not have an issue with it, but i will not tell you wether you are ethicly right or wrong from posted pics.
If someone asked 20 people to pick out the color midnight blue from 100 different shades of blue i doubt all 20 will pick the exact same one. They are feel like they picked out the color midnight blue.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>That 58 is in fact a monster and as APN noted, I do realize that 58s can be anything from a 64 to a 67. I would hope that a 62 would defulat to 55 as obviously any problem it has at the MS level would knock it below the 58. Its easy to think of a 58 as a gem level for AU coins. But all that being said I still feel the same way about that 55. There are many nice 55s. I owned a gorgeous seated quarter in 55 that has a new owner here on the forums and that coin had set certain epectaions for me. Granted it was a PCGS 55. Anyway here is more of the monster 58. The reverse is even more glorious. >>
AU58 can be lower than a 64 with rub. I highly suggest looking at some grading guides to get a feel for what the grades mean. Especially in AU, there's a lot at play amongst the combination of wear and chatter. Just because you have or have seen a monster at any grade level is no guarantee that all coins will be like that. The reason I pay premiums for great coins is because they deserve it, regardless of how the average coin at that grade level looks..
The reason I pay premiums for great coins is because they deserve it, regardless of how the average coin at that grade level looks..
Average coins are great coins? Coins that you pay a premium for? IMO, monster coins are the great coins.
Did you contradict yourself? It certainly doesn't read right.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i> Just because you have or have seen a monster at any grade level is no guarantee that all coins will be like that.
The reason I pay premiums for great coins is because they deserve it, regardless of how the average coin at that grade level looks..
Average coins are great coins? Coins that you pay a premium for? IMO, monster coins are the great coins.
Did you contradict yourself? It certainly doesn't read right.
Leo >>
He didn't say average coins are great coins or that he pays a premium for average coins. He said he pays premiums for great coins.
<< <i>
<< <i> Just because you have or have seen a monster at any grade level is no guarantee that all coins will be like that.
The reason I pay premiums for great coins is because they deserve it, regardless of how the average coin at that grade level looks..
Average coins are great coins? Coins that you pay a premium for? IMO, monster coins are the great coins.
Did you contradict yourself? It certainly doesn't read right.
Leo >>
He didn't say average coins are great coins or that he pays a premium for average coins. He said he pays premiums for great coins. >>
The reason I pay premiums for great coins is because they deserve it, regardless of how the average coin at that grade level looks..
Sure sounds like, "buy the holder and not the coin" to me.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> Just because you have or have seen a monster at any grade level is no guarantee that all coins will be like that.
The reason I pay premiums for great coins is because they deserve it, regardless of how the average coin at that grade level looks..
Average coins are great coins? Coins that you pay a premium for? IMO, monster coins are the great coins.
Did you contradict yourself? It certainly doesn't read right.
Leo >>
He didn't say average coins are great coins or that he pays a premium for average coins. He said he pays premiums for great coins. >>
The reason I pay premiums for great coins is because they deserve it, regardless of how the average coin at that grade level looks..
Sure sounds like, "buy the holder and not the coin" to me.
Leo >>
He buys the coin ("great coins") not the holder, "because they deserve it". And to him, it doesn't matter what the "average coin at that grade level looks" - he doesn't buy those.
<< <i>
<< <i>That 58 is in fact a monster and as APN noted, I do realize that 58s can be anything from a 64 to a 67. I would hope that a 62 would defulat to 55 as obviously any problem it has at the MS level would knock it below the 58. Its easy to think of a 58 as a gem level for AU coins. But all that being said I still feel the same way about that 55. There are many nice 55s. I owned a gorgeous seated quarter in 55 that has a new owner here on the forums and that coin had set certain epectaions for me. Granted it was a PCGS 55. Anyway here is more of the monster 58. The reverse is even more glorious. >>
AU58 can be lower than a 64 with rub. I highly suggest looking at some grading guides to get a feel for what the grades mean. Especially in AU, there's a lot at play amongst the combination of wear and chatter. Just because you have or have seen a monster at any grade level is no guarantee that all coins will be like that. The reason I pay premiums for great coins is because they deserve it, regardless of how the average coin at that grade level looks.. >>
Every dollar over spot or face is technically a premium so that isnt really saying anything until you use a starting point. That starting point is the market price and the market price is determined, realisticaly, by the grade it is in. I am not disagreeing with you on that portion. I paid a premium for this coin because I thought it was a great coin. I was wrong. I returned it. I bought a great coin instead. But my coin is great for a 58, relative to other 58s or in this case relative to the 55 I returned. Relative to a 67 my coin is a POS. I dont see how you can ignore the relationship to other coins in the same grade.