What are people seeing when submitting CAC Green labels for secure+?
clackamas
Posts: 5,615 ✭
I have a number of CAC green labels, what are people finding the crossover to secure plus to be like?
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<< <i>I have a number of CAC green labels, what are people finding the crossover to secure plus to be like? >>
Elusive? Pluses are rare. It's not a bad thing.
Lance.
<< <i>.....what are people finding the crossover to secure plus to be like? >>
I haven't tries with any of my green beans yet but very few of them would +.
Maybe 20% of the CAC coins I own would get a +. That's 6 coins total, so I don't plan to try real soon.
<< <i>I have an MS 68 Norfolk with a CAC green sticker which has been in the PCGS system for 7 days. If it does not get the plus it will be sent back to CAC again.
Please post the results.
<< <i>The amount of money spent on opinions and resubmittal opinions boggles the mind. Why would anyone, after paying for a grade, then paying for an affirmation of said grade (CAC), pay again for another grade? I guess if the next level is moon money, there could be justification, but simply for a designation? Amazing. Cheers, RickO >>
<< <i>The amount of money spent on opinions and resubmittal opinions boggles the mind. Why would anyone, after paying for a grade, then paying for an affirmation of said grade (CAC), pay again for another grade? I guess if the next level is moon money, there could be justification, but simply for a designation? Amazing. Cheers, RickO >>
I have to agree with this. Recognizing that part of the premium paid for a very PQ coin is the chance that it might one day go up or become a + makes one realize that a coin can actually drop in value once it is submitted and doesn't +. This means that you have to add up all the grading fees and the drops in value and balance that against the added value for those that DO +. From what I've seen so far, the scale doesn't tip in the right direction to make it worthwhile.
<< <i>
<< <i>The amount of money spent on opinions and resubmittal opinions boggles the mind. Why would anyone, after paying for a grade, then paying for an affirmation of said grade (CAC), pay again for another grade? I guess if the next level is moon money, there could be justification, but simply for a designation? Amazing. Cheers, RickO >>
I have to agree with this. Recognizing that part of the premium paid for a very PQ coin is the chance that it might one day go up or become a + makes one realize that a coin can actually drop in value once it is submitted and doesn't +. This means that you have to add up all the grading fees and the drops in value and balance that against the added value for those that DO +. From what I've seen so far, the scale doesn't tip in the right direction to make it worthwhile. >>
I concur. Eloquently said!
<< <i>The amount of money spent on opinions and resubmittal opinions boggles the mind. Why would anyone, after paying for a grade, then paying for an affirmation of said grade (CAC), pay again for another grade? I guess if the next level is moon money, there could be justification, but simply for a designation? Amazing. Cheers, RickO >>
It could be, but it could also be well worth it. It's risk vs. reward. I have a great CAC green label ms66 Saint, and a super nice 1868 Indian cent, that the additional fees are just a small percentage of value. The purpose of the question was to judge the risk from others experience. Presumably a green label CAC would be more likely to upgrade that extra +. Not too much different than a crackout. If you don't get it you could crack again to get the normal holder back.
First, none of the coins had ever been submitted to CAC. The last time any of the coins were graded was in 2004.
90 of my Early and CBH's were graded in May. 14 received the Plus designation and 7 were given a full point upgrade( one going up to the next level, and a +). It would appear, from a side by side review of the coins, that it took a liner to get an upgrade( plus or full point).
It will always depend on the individual quality of the coin, but my answer to the original question-- a green label CAC coin has only a small chance to get a plus, or a full point upgrade. It should have received a gold designation to be likely to benefit from a Secure Plus submission.
I agree with your last comment regarding a CAC gold label likely getting the most benefit of a PCGS Secure Plus submission.
Conceivably, if a gold CAC coin receives a plus, then it could still get a gold CAC sticker on resubmission tp CAC, right?
However, if CAC restickers the plussed coin with a gold bean, doesn't that sort of negate each of the designations?....as a gold CAC bean usually means a good chance that the coin may upgrade but the + means that it hasn't meet the qualifications to get to the next grade level, right?
Boy, can this get confusing?
Thoughts?
A gold bean coin is not a 'liner', it's a 'lock'. And does a gold bean coin 'benefit' from receiving just a + designation upon submission to secure plus? I don't think so.
<< <i>It will always depend on the individual quality of the coin... >>
That's not all it depends on.
Remember, we're still talking about opinions here.
While I would agree that a gold bean may indicate the next grade( better than a plus), what do you think about a green bean having a chance at PCGS for a + or next grade?
Does CAC guarantee the next grade when it gives out the gold? or is this just another opinion?
We have all seen mistakes( in our opinion) by all the services, and CAC. Where does it say that a gold bean is a lock upgrade, rather than just the opinion of a great grader, that the coin is undergraded?
That could have some interesting results.
<< <i>TDN,
While I would agree that a gold bean may indicate the next grade( better than a plus), what do you think about a green bean having a chance at PCGS for a + or next grade?
Does CAC guarantee the next grade when it gives out the gold? or is this just another opinion?
We have all seen mistakes( in our opinion) by all the services, and CAC. Where does it say that a gold bean is a lock upgrade, rather than just the opinion of a great grader, that the coin is undergraded? >>
CAC doesn't guarantee that the grading services will do ANYTHING when it comes to upgrades. What they do guarantee is that they'll buy the gold stickered coin at their bid for the next grade up. Putting one's money where one's opinion lays is the surest 'lock' that I can think of.
Being 100% honest, I told Laura to stop submitting my personal coins for the + designation until she sees a definitive trend of what they are looking for in order to receive a +. At the moment, we cannot perceive one. That doesn't mean there isn't one - but some of the coins that aren't [or for that matter ARE] receiving pluses are leaving us shaking our heads. And once they aren't plussed, they'll never get plussed so it's not worth the downside risk.
<< <i>TDN,
While I would agree that a gold bean may indicate the next grade( better than a plus), what do you think about a green bean having a chance at PCGS for a + or next grade?
Does CAC guarantee the next grade when it gives out the gold? or is this just another opinion?
We have all seen mistakes( in our opinion) by all the services, and CAC. Where does it say that a gold bean is a lock upgrade, rather than just the opinion of a great grader, that the coin is undergraded? >>
Dale,
I don't think CAC can guarantee a lock for their gold stickers. After all, CAC and PCGS are two seperate companies with two different opnions.
To prove that, I personally know of a green stickered CAC coin that upgraded at PCGS, so what does that say?
A green or gold CAC sticker is just one thing............an opinion, that's all, nothing more.
So, what should we do with all of this......in the words of DH himself, have fun with your coins
I hear you. What source does CAC use for their bid? Grey Sheet? Coin Values, Numismedia, their own idea?
being a coin collector. We obsess a lot.
Camelot
I have only sent in one coin so far to Secure Plus;
it happened to have a Green Bean sticker; it came back
in the original grade. MS 65. The coin now has a Gold Shield
instead of a Green Sticker !
I plan on dropping off a half dozen coins for Secure Plus
while I'm at FUN in a few weeks. Mostly pre-crossovers
which lost a point or two on the cross from NGC to PCGS.
I'm hoping for a few Pluses.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
And once they aren't plussed, they'll never get plussed so it's not worth the downside risk. That is completely untrue. You need to read the FAQs and other published material. You can also talk to a few dealers who have resubmitted Secure Plus coins and received upgrades. It is not impossible. Further more, as time goes on you will see Secure Plus coins that didn't get the Plus become more and more desirable as PCGS continues to implement new technologies and processes to detect alltered coins. Even today, the extra screening the PCGS is doing on Secure Plus submissions is as much or more than any other company can offer.
but some of the coins that aren't [or for that matter ARE] receiving pluses are leaving us shaking our heads. There is a learning curve as to what qualifies for a plus and what does not. As time goes on more and more examples will help everyone understand. Some dealers already get it. Plus grades are running about what we thought they would (percentage wise). If anyone ever sees a Plus graded coin that you "shake your head at" give me the cert # and we will make every attempt to buy it back. Got any?
What happens if CAC doesn't have a bid on a particular issue?
<< <i> gold bean coin is not a 'liner', it's a 'lock'. ........ Plus grades are running about what we thought they would (percentage wise). >>
Don,
Is that "new" submissions or regrades? I would imagine that the two percentages would be different, since the regrades already have been determined by the dealer or collector as being PQ, hence I would think the odds would be better for resubmissions than a random normal/first time submission. This was the premise of my question with CAC green labels and Plus grades. I would think on average more CAC green labels would plus than non CAC coins.
<< <i>TDN,
I hear you. What source does CAC use for their bid? Grey Sheet? Coin Values, Numismedia, their own idea? >>
IIRC, many greysheet bids *are* CAC making a market. JA also publishes bids for CAC coins in areas he's seeking to purchase.
get good magic and sometimes you get bad magic.I like +s and
I like beans. However the latter, tend to give me a bit of gas.
Camelot
What happens if he's not seeking to purchase a particular issue?
<< <i>-- A also publishes bids for CAC coins in areas he's seeking to purchase. --
What happens if he's not seeking to purchase a particular issue? >>
You'd have to ask JA for specifics - but keep in mind that CAC's function is to be a market maker in coins that it likes.
<< <i> gold bean coin is not a 'liner', it's a 'lock'. No one can guarantee a grade outside of PCGS. >>
I agree - and so stated.
<< <i>And once they aren't plussed, they'll never get plussed so it's not worth the downside risk. That is completely untrue. You need to read the FAQs and other published material. You can also talk to a few dealers who have resubmitted Secure Plus coins and received upgrades. It is not impossible. Further more, as time goes on you will see Secure Plus coins that didn't get the Plus become more and more desirable as PCGS continues to implement new technologies and processes to detect alltered coins. Even today, the extra screening the PCGS is doing on Secure Plus submissions is as much or more than any other company can offer. >>
I apologize - I thought the premise of the Secure Plus was that once the grade was given that it remained the same no matter how many times it was resubmitted.
<< <i>but some of the coins that aren't [or for that matter ARE] receiving pluses are leaving us shaking our heads. There is a learning curve as to what qualifies for a plus and what does not. As time goes on more and more examples will help everyone understand. Some dealers already get it. Plus grades are running about what we thought they would (percentage wise). If anyone ever sees a Plus graded coin that you "shake your head at" give me the cert # and we will make every attempt to buy it back. Got any? >>
>>
I wasn't insinuating that there aren't standards for the + designation, rather that until a dealer learns those standards it's difficult to decide what's a plus and what's not and thus a crapshoot. The one coin that I used to own in a series I collect that received a plus I didn't think was anything special. Whereas another coin that I used to own in a series I collect that I did think was special did not receive a plus. So until I learn what they are looking for, it's a waste to try and guess which will and which won't.
<< <i>PCGS continues to implement new technologies and processes to detect alltered coins. Even today, the extra screening the PCGS is doing on Secure Plus submissions is as much or more than any other company can offer. >>
I think this is fantastic and have so stated in the past. It's definitely worthwhile to have ones' coins screened intensely to remove the possiblity of owning a doctored coin in ones' collection. I adhere to this practice through a variety of methods.
I have over 110 California Gold Fractionals pocket pieces and still have 444 left to acquire(!) and none of them have any CAC stickers because CAC does not sticker them as a matter of policy.
I also have a coin collection of PCGS slabbed coins that I acquired or made over time which were eligible for CAC stickering. In this area, I always wanted to acquire unquestioned solid for the grade (at least at the mid-point for the assigned grade).
I have been trained by PCGS to either be happy with the PCGS grade, modified by my own preference for at least solidly midpoint graded OR "unhappy" in that I would "know" my coin was undergraded by at least a full grade but did not do anything about it since as long as I had an older generation PCGS slab, I felt comfortable in the comfort that others would agree with my assessment that the coin was solidly graded OR undergraded by one full grade.
The issue of PQ for the grade was a not a critical concept to me other than in the context of being a "lock" for the next grade up.
Then CAC came into the picture which for the first time offered me "confirmation" that my coin graded at least .4 of the grade to as high as .3 of the next grade which was in the form of a green sticker. The concept of solid for the grade and not a just made the grade. This had been started years before by Rick Snow except Rick Snow's concept veered more towards the PQ for the assigned grade.
It has been fun getting my entire collection looked over by CAC and doing quite well in obtaining confirmation that I grade coins quite decently, actually better than I gave myself credit for.
I have slowly been discarding the slabs that did not sticker with few exceptions and keepiing only the stickered coins.
That being said, I am watching the new PCGS plus grading system with great interest.
My impression of it is that it is a brilliant grading as well as marketing concept and that in years to come, PCGS will do very, very well with it. However, since I have been trained by PCGS for so long to not be concerned with PQ graded coins, it is going to take a long long time for me to get comfortable with this grading concept, even for my California Fractionals.
But as time goes on this grading concept will get stronger and stronger, but it will take at least 5-7 years for this concept to fully be accepted by the old-timers with the juniors latching on sooner than that..
However, this does not in anyway "hurt" the concept of the CAC which is only confirmation of the solid for the grade (or the gold bean under-graded) and PCGS neatly carved out a completely new PQ niche.
What does this mean?
Well for the old rattler Franklin proof slabs I just bought from joebb (not the awesome 14 piece complete set but all his duplicates), the CAC sticker is a perfect and low cost (@$10 each) method of confirming whether the old slabs are solid for the grade or not. Clearly, of the 57 duplicate rattler Franklin proof slabs, probably 10 will not get stickered and possibly 5 of them will get gold stickers! But since I could be wrong, I do not want to make that decision and instead have an independent party decide. For old slabs and those whose who like old slabbed coins, PCGS secure + is not the answer.
Also for coins valued at under $250 to $300, secure + is also not cost effective at this time.
For raw coins and for the newer blue tagged slabs valued at over $300 or so it is a different story. In an interesting sort of reverse logic, if a collector KNOWS his coin is PQ but is definitely NOT an upgrade, a PCGS secure + seems worthy of investigation. If the coin appears to be a definite upgrade candidate, I am not sure why the collector would chance on a secure + grade submission?
Both PCGS and CAC has made this hobby quite interesting in the most recent year and right now, I cannot see trashing either new grading enhancement. They are both brilliant
Now, back to my California Fractionals. Perhaps, my best course of action is to evaluate this a bit more later as my head hurts!
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
but some of the coins that aren't [or for that matter ARE] receiving pluses are leaving us shaking our heads. There is a learning curve as to what qualifies for a plus and what does not.
Some dealers already get it.
That was a stinger towards?? lol
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"