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Confused on what is market acceptable
Frozenink
Posts: 446 ✭✭
First, this is a little of a rant but I am honestly confused. I have coins bb for questionable color, and genuine for cleaning.
I have focused on Bust material and have sent in a bust half with the blue toning around the rim obverse and reverse. I my eyes it is a coin that I have seen hundreds of times in PCGS holders. Yet it get bb for questionable color.
I know it does not matter but I bought this from a 90 year old guy that is a family friend. He pulled out 4-5 old albums that he had to dust off. He has over a hundred of the different denominations in the bust series. I would be a buyer of most of them, but it seems like there is a revolt on this type of album toning. I try to see if I can find many examples of the series of coin that has that type of toning before I even think of sending it in.
Another one just posted as geniune due to cleaning. I try to buy original looking coins but I think alot of bust material has been cleaned in the day. Heck at one time the hobby endorsed cleaning. At what point, is an old cleaning ok on one hand and not ok on the other.
I have passed on many coins that I have thought had hard cleaning, yet I was at a show over the weekend and 20 bust coins in the au range had all been graded and looked harshly cleaned and bright white.
I am so confused by all of this. It seems like the rules have changed over the years. All I know is I am feeling less and less interested in this hobby. I have numerous books and grading guides and have done tons of research and comps on the raw coins I buy.
It just feels like the little guy is getting the shaft, a large dealer told me to let him send in my coins and things will be fine. I thought he was just talking thru his rear, but I am starting to believe him.
Dazed and confused and wondering if this is worth the headache.
Gary
I have focused on Bust material and have sent in a bust half with the blue toning around the rim obverse and reverse. I my eyes it is a coin that I have seen hundreds of times in PCGS holders. Yet it get bb for questionable color.
I know it does not matter but I bought this from a 90 year old guy that is a family friend. He pulled out 4-5 old albums that he had to dust off. He has over a hundred of the different denominations in the bust series. I would be a buyer of most of them, but it seems like there is a revolt on this type of album toning. I try to see if I can find many examples of the series of coin that has that type of toning before I even think of sending it in.
Another one just posted as geniune due to cleaning. I try to buy original looking coins but I think alot of bust material has been cleaned in the day. Heck at one time the hobby endorsed cleaning. At what point, is an old cleaning ok on one hand and not ok on the other.
I have passed on many coins that I have thought had hard cleaning, yet I was at a show over the weekend and 20 bust coins in the au range had all been graded and looked harshly cleaned and bright white.
I am so confused by all of this. It seems like the rules have changed over the years. All I know is I am feeling less and less interested in this hobby. I have numerous books and grading guides and have done tons of research and comps on the raw coins I buy.
It just feels like the little guy is getting the shaft, a large dealer told me to let him send in my coins and things will be fine. I thought he was just talking thru his rear, but I am starting to believe him.
Dazed and confused and wondering if this is worth the headache.
Gary
0
Comments
.........it means it is acceptable to the market !
PCGS is keenly aware that doctoring is a growing tumor hurting both the hobby and their bottom lines (read guarantees). So PCGS put its foot down and is now quick to BB/genuine. It's a similar situation at NGC.
Persistence can succeed but it is costly. I don't agree that PCGS BB's to benefit from repetitive submissions, though clearly there is a financial benefit.
Lots of folks point to worse coins than their BB'd ones, and wonder how they got slabbed. Well, standards were looser just a few years ago, and imperfect humans are making judgment calls. Opinions.
Cleaning has always been a controversy. Many (most?) older coins were cleaned, gently, often, harshly, or just once. Harshly cleaned does not get a break. But others can. Again, it's an opinion by experts on what is okay for the market. BB'ing for cleaning bugs me more than questionable color because I figure there should be more science and less guessing. Yet we still see wild calls. Again, opinions. We pay experts to give them and can't always like them.
Sorry you are bummed to the point of leaving the hobby. That is maybe the saddest outcome of all. Doctoring is killing us. I'm glad PCGS is cracking down but I can't help be disappointed by the same things you are.
Lance.
Why not just buy slabs and leave the aggravating stuff to the dealers?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
You're not the only one.
A thing to remember.this helps me...what it will do for others i do not know....IMO
"You can put lipstick on a pig... but it's still a pig"
Camelot
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>welcome to the jungle................ >>
Well put
<< <i>Dazed and confused and wondering if this is worth the headache.
Why not just buy slabs and leave the aggravating stuff to the dealers? >>
I would prefer to buy the slabbed coins, however I would be missing out on alot of coins at a reasonable. I am able to negotiate when a coin is raw. When its in a holder people say it a 63 and that limits the haggling.
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I like to think I see things in black and white, maybe it was my time in the service but I am used to things being cut and dried. Not left to wondering what is right or wrong.
Ok it was a rant and I still believe things are being done questionably at best. I guess I can always submit to another TPG.
Gary
Gary
I think the TPGs are constantly changing their grading standards trying to get to that delicate balance that will maximize the profits for the shareholders. Since "market acceptable" is a moving target, what gets graded vs. what gets "genuined" is divided by an ever widening gray area. They will vehemently deny that they ever change their standards, but the proof confronts us constantly.
It is a sad reality that has, in some ways, spoiled the fun of collecting, and in other ways, saved the coin collecting hobby.
Collect what you like and don't worry too much whether or not some other entity likes your choices. That's what I have to tell myself, often.
Stub
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>I am able to negotiate when a coin is raw. When its in a holder people say it a 63 and that limits the haggling.
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I like to think I see things in black and white, maybe it was my time in the service but I am used to things being cut and dried. >>
Now I'm confused - you like to buy raw coins so you can haggle over the grade with the seller, but you like things black and white, cut and dried? And how do you determine what a 'fair price' is? The sheets say one thing, auction records say something else....The whole hobby is filled with ambiguity and inconsistency. If you insist on cut and dried numismatics, order your coins from the mint!
In all seriousness, it's what makes markets, and knowledge and experience will help you 'win' more often, but not all the time. Good luck and don't give up.
<< <i>oink oink >>
You mean classic numismatic literature can be doctored too????
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>
<< <i>Dazed and confused and wondering if this is worth the headache.
Why not just buy slabs and leave the aggravating stuff to the dealers? >>
I would prefer to buy the slabbed coins, however I would be missing out on alot of coins at a reasonable. I am able to negotiate when a coin is raw. When its in a holder people say it a 63 and that limits the haggling.
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I like to think I see things in black and white, maybe it was my time in the service but I am used to things being cut and dried. Not left to wondering what is right or wrong.
Ok it was a rant and I still believe things are being done questionably at best. I guess I can always submit to another TPG.
Gary >>
Your niche in collecting coins is shared by many......it's those with the best of trained eyes! You might want to continue building on that.....not wandering too far from that pool of collectors and dealers.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>At what point, is an old cleaning ok on one hand and not ok on the other. >>
The rarer the coin, the more likely it will get into a slab.
<< <i>I assume you are sending coins in for grading in order to resell them. If this is not the case, why submit at all?? If you are happy with your skills, like the coins, then keep them raw. That will give you more financial resources to buy more coins. Cheers, RickO >>
Nope, I am not selling the bust material. at least not 10 years at a minimum. I just to prefer to get the slabbed so the can be dealt with in an easier fashion is something should happen to me. My wife and son have no interest, so the would probably get face value for them.
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Its just frustrating and I know the will get in a holder, but I just thought the entry fee was $60 (grading fee, s/h both ways) not $120 or $180. Its all about the bottom line. I am over it and will send these again, maybe someplace else, but I believe these are quality coins.
Gary
The second time it came back Genuine (code 91 Questionable Color). The coin is a 90 percent silver and has some black tarnish marks on it, but no big deal, so we cracked it out and sent it in for a third time.
The third time it grade. The only reason we kept sending it back was that it is a 1964-D DDO-013 and we needed it for our set.
Gary
It may be that your 90 year old friend did some cleaning of his coins long ago and the TPGs are simply telling you what you've paid them to find out. If you want to collect them, collect them and have fun but don't expect to make something into what it's not.
I knew it would happen.