PCGS poised to recognize 2009 Lincoln Doubled Dies ??
Papi
Posts: 1,189 ✭✭
The following is my email to PCGS:
Hi,
It's been a year since the release of the 2009 Formative Years Cent.
I've been patiently waiting for recognition by your company.
These coins have been recognized by all the major variety attributers, and have been featured on the Home Shopping Network. I understand, the major ones, are also going to be listed in the Cherry Pickers Guide. Is it a personal decision, or is it as stated below in this quote from the "Lincoln Cent Resource" web site?
"Some individuals have doubted that these 2009 doubled dies are true doubled dies. The coin certification company, NGC, has stated that they do not believe that these are
doubled dies at all, and must be ‘something else’. This belief is largely due to a misunderstanding of the single squeeze hubbing process.
Many collectors are not aware of the fact that most modern doubled dies are more likely to be found in the center of the design. This is because of the fact that the die blank is cone shaped before hubbing. Bob Piazza states
"It is not necessarily the highest point of the relief that we address when we talk about a single squeeze doubled die. We point to the very center of the hub where it will make the first contact with the die blank. The die blank is conical in shape, not flat faced. If the hub and blank are not perfectly parallel to each other, when the hub is lowered, the very first ‘kiss’ between the two will not correctly positioned. This initial contact begins to leave an impression on the die blank. Continued hubbing pressure, or a realization by the mint technicians that the two are not parallel may result in a readjustment, slip, or snap back between the hub and die blank. Once this has been corrected, or the snap back
occurs, continued hubbing pressure leaves the normal impression on the die blank in addition to the impression made by the first ‘kiss’. This is identified as a Class 8 (tilted
hub) or shifted hub (Class 9 on coppercoins.com) doubled die."" The 2009D District of Columbia Quarter (DDR-001) is an excellent example of this type of a center of the design doubled die.
Please reconsider these important varieties of this single year design.
Their response:
Hello,
If the varieties are going to be listed in the new Cherry Pickers Guide, there is a very good chance PCGS will start to recognize them through our variety attribution program. Until it is recognized by the publication though, PCGS will not attribute the variety. If you have any further questions, please let me know or you can call customer service at 1-800-447-8848.
Thank you,
Noah Varness
Customer Service
Collectors Universe, Inc.
PCGS: (800) 447-8848
nvarness@collectors.com
If you have the authors' email; please join me in requesting their inclusion.
The Cherrypickers' Guide by Bill Favaz and J.T. Stanton
Hi,
It's been a year since the release of the 2009 Formative Years Cent.
I've been patiently waiting for recognition by your company.
These coins have been recognized by all the major variety attributers, and have been featured on the Home Shopping Network. I understand, the major ones, are also going to be listed in the Cherry Pickers Guide. Is it a personal decision, or is it as stated below in this quote from the "Lincoln Cent Resource" web site?
"Some individuals have doubted that these 2009 doubled dies are true doubled dies. The coin certification company, NGC, has stated that they do not believe that these are
doubled dies at all, and must be ‘something else’. This belief is largely due to a misunderstanding of the single squeeze hubbing process.
Many collectors are not aware of the fact that most modern doubled dies are more likely to be found in the center of the design. This is because of the fact that the die blank is cone shaped before hubbing. Bob Piazza states
"It is not necessarily the highest point of the relief that we address when we talk about a single squeeze doubled die. We point to the very center of the hub where it will make the first contact with the die blank. The die blank is conical in shape, not flat faced. If the hub and blank are not perfectly parallel to each other, when the hub is lowered, the very first ‘kiss’ between the two will not correctly positioned. This initial contact begins to leave an impression on the die blank. Continued hubbing pressure, or a realization by the mint technicians that the two are not parallel may result in a readjustment, slip, or snap back between the hub and die blank. Once this has been corrected, or the snap back
occurs, continued hubbing pressure leaves the normal impression on the die blank in addition to the impression made by the first ‘kiss’. This is identified as a Class 8 (tilted
hub) or shifted hub (Class 9 on coppercoins.com) doubled die."" The 2009D District of Columbia Quarter (DDR-001) is an excellent example of this type of a center of the design doubled die.
Please reconsider these important varieties of this single year design.
Their response:
Hello,
If the varieties are going to be listed in the new Cherry Pickers Guide, there is a very good chance PCGS will start to recognize them through our variety attribution program. Until it is recognized by the publication though, PCGS will not attribute the variety. If you have any further questions, please let me know or you can call customer service at 1-800-447-8848.
Thank you,
Noah Varness
Customer Service
Collectors Universe, Inc.
PCGS: (800) 447-8848
nvarness@collectors.com
If you have the authors' email; please join me in requesting their inclusion.
The Cherrypickers' Guide by Bill Favaz and J.T. Stanton
0
Comments
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
<< <i>Thanks for sharing that Papi. Where did the rumor start of the CPG's recognition? Has one of the author's disclosed this? >>
I can not say with complete certainty, I'm not the author.
That's why I encourage anyone interested, to contact the authors, or PCGS.
Perhaps PCGS has contact info for the authors of the Cherry Picker.
The key words there are IF and CHANCE not WHEN and WILL.
<< <i>Where did the rumor start of the CPG's recognition? Has one of the author's disclosed this? >>
I see nothing indicating that the coins will be included in a subsequent release of the CPG in either the OP' email or Noah's response.
The name is LEE!
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
go to:
coppercoins.com
on left side choose "die variety search"
enter....2009.....then DDR
there are 113 listings with lots of pictures.
<< <i>Read the response very carefully. Noah stated: "IF the varieties are going to be listed in the new Cherry Pickers Guide, there is a very good CHANCE PCGS will start to recognize them through our variety attribution program."
The key words there are IF and CHANCE not WHEN and WILL.
<< <i>Where did the rumor start of the CPG's recognition? Has one of the author's disclosed this? >>
I see nothing indicating that the coins will be included in a subsequent release of the CPG in either the OP' email or Noah's response. >>
Lee is correct. Until the book is in print they will not put them in the variety slab.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>I see nothing indicating that the coins will be included in a subsequent release of the CPG in either the OP' email or Noah's response.
Lee is correct. Until the book is in print they will not put them in the variety slab. >>
Are you people reading something other than I wrote?
The point was to find out where PCGS stood, after 1 year, on these errors. The answer was clear; No CPG, No Attribution.
Simple; Write to the authors of CPG and tell them you want them included.
Anybody know when the cherry pickers guide comes out?
<< <i>Anybody know when the cherry pickers guide comes out? >>
When the authors believe there is sufficient NEW interest in the book that will cause collectors to buy an updated copy.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
OK then, how do we get in contact with these people?
<< <i>papi, a lot of members here like to play devils advocate , dont take it personal and thanks for your post. If everyone gets together on this maybe they will be listed, that is the jist of your post and I appreciate your efforts, take care----------BigE >>
Thanks BigE. I guess some are just prone to complete negativity.
I felt PCGS's message was a positive indication.
BST Transactions: DonnyJf, MrOrganic, Justanothercoinaddict, Fivecents, Slq, Jdimmick,
Robb, Tee135, Ibzman350, Mercfan, Outhaul, Erickso1, Cugamongacoins, Indiananationals, Wayne Herndon
Negative BST Transactions:
Thanks papi, we do appreciate your work and efforts in getting these coins recognized as they eventually will be ( at least some of the better ones).
The Big Three:
CDDR-001 "Extra Thumb"
CDDR-002 "Sixth Finger"
CDDR-009 "Skeleton Finger"
The "Skeleton Finger" also has a nice doubled die obverse CDDO-002, and is the toughest to find of the three because the obverse die shared it's production time with the lesser double die reverse (CDDR-006) which failed sometime during the production run and the die was pulled and replaced with a new reverse die which was the CDDR-009 (Skeleton Finger)! As these two reverse DDRs ( CDDR-006 & CDDR-009 with CDDO-002) each shared part of the production run, then each of them would have much less of them being produced as compared to one individual Formative Year DDR that made a full production on its own. Therefore, this variety has a lot less of them and harder to find compared to the other listed Formative Year varieties.
See below for pictures of the three varieties I have noted, and judge for yourself if think these are interesting. I personally do and know other collectors who feel the same.
CDDR-001 "Extra Thumb"
CDDR-002 "Sixth Finger"
CDDR-009 "Skeleton Finger"
<< <i>@PerryHall
go to:
coppercoins.com
on left side choose "die variety search"
enter....2009.....then DDR
there are 113 listings with lots of pictures. >>
...............................................................................................................
I defy a reasonable person to review those pictures and say they can identify with a 5X glass all the different varities listed.
You are right on the money with your assessment. Those are the only 3 that I have even bothered to save when going through all the rolls that I have.
I've posted a cent with a die crack for the heck of it.
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
<< <i>Of course the people who care about them own them, and I would bet the people who dont care about them dont own them------------BigE >>
<< <i>I believe that if the CPG did include them you are looking at several years before the book is reissued with updates. I believe that those who care about these varieties already own them. >>
What about the millions of lincoln collectors who don't know about them at this point or are unable to keep up with their coin collections because of the economy?
Here is the label of the only one I had sent in to get graded.
I was a Monkey
PCGS will be attributing these DDRS................just be patient.
I know I'm getting gray in the process, but that's what it is
Stock Up Y'all
<< <i>CPG authors, have responded to my Emails.
PCGS will be attributing these DDRS................just be patient.
I know I'm getting gray in the process, but that's what it is
Stock Up Y'all >>
Thanks to you I have.
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
Start buying loose coins on ebay. I have given up on the rolls at this point. I have been buying quite a few lately even though I have a lot of these coins already. By the time you buy the rolls and look through them you have wasted a lot of money . I think some of the last rolls I bought were already opened and bad rolls substituted and easily resealed.
try searching for heny43 he is selling
I was a Monkey
<< <i>
<< <i>papi, a lot of members here like to play devils advocate , dont take it personal and thanks for your post. If everyone gets together on this maybe they will be listed, that is the jist of your post and I appreciate your efforts, take care----------BigE >>
Thanks BigE. I guess some are just prone to complete negativity.
I felt PCGS's message was a positive indication. >>
Absolutely nobody is prone to "negativity" as much as folks already know that if a coin gets into the CPG that PCGS will attribute it. This is nothing new and if anything, Noah's response was totally canned. I'm certain I could get the exact response if I asked about DDO or DDR Eisenhowers.
The hundreds of DDR Lincolns is nothing new either as the exact same scenario played out with the Minnesota Extra Tree's (which get attributed but which also don't really attract a premium) and the DDR 2004 Ocean in View Nickels which folks just lost interest in.
The reality of the situation is two fold.
First, folks that have no experience with die varieties get REALLY excited when they come across them but this is to be expected as it IS very exciting. But, when the varieties start numbering in the hundreds AND they are easily found THEN you really have nothing thats SPECIAL. They are true varieties but are not held real high on the numismatic premium scale. Now, this is not discounting the coins but to press hard to get these into the CPG with the intent of "cashing in" is something that probably will not happen since the cash cow for these coins left the barn about 6 months back. Any premiums to be had, left with the cow.
As a variety collector myself, I can appreciate the efforts of many to collect an entire series of these coins just for the sake of having them. But to entertain the thoughts that you'll make money off of the venture is just silly since each coin will cost you a "minimum" of $38.00 just to get PCGS to slab it.
I doubt seriously that folks will pay $38 for a slabbed version and in the long run, the collector is the one who will get poorer by having these attributed and slabbed. This situation, is typical with ANY modern coin beit a variety series or simply a coin series. There are many coins which I could have slabbed for a registry set but its way cheaper to simply buy what I need at half and sometimes one fourth of the slabbing fee's.
The second reality of the situation is that while these coins were being discovered, folks had a TON of FUN looking for them and getting them attributed. You get your name associated with the variety, it may get printed in Coin World, it always gets posted on the Internet and it's, well, a lot of fun. Heck, finding anything these days is just a lot of fun!
But, going to Disneyland is just as much fun and as with anything, it comes to an end. These coins had their time in the limelight. The prices they bring today, right now, this week, are exactly the same prices they MAY bring if and when the get put into the CPG and PCGS attributes them.
Today, the coins can and do get attributed and slabbed by ANACS. I would think that folks would be rushing to get them into ANACS holders since that will protect them and enable collectors to build graded sets. ANACS is not all that bad and sometimes can be downright stingy with grades. I really don't see any special significance with PCGS adding them to the list of coins which they attribute. Yes, they could get put into a registry which would be great but I don't think it will be of any real significance except to a few select individuals.
Again, I'm not trying to be negative, just realistic. But if some of you intend to hoard these away in the hopes that your retirment will be well padded because you already have hundreds of them stuck away, well let's just say you should rethink that position and instead just coincentrate on the best quality coins. Because if you have hundreds, then there are hundreds of other folks that also have hundreds.
Not trying to shoot you down but the actual, numismatic reality is that there are a lot of these, in both variety and sheer number of coins, and a lot of folks have stuck them away which translates into, there will always be a lot to choose from. Only the highest of grades will ever realize any premiums.
Say, what are those DDR Ocean in View Nickels bringing today anyway?
This one, didn;t sell for less than the grading fee's.
Neither did this one.
As for the Lincoln DDR's, they just aren't selling and even an act of God (i.e. PCGS) won't change that. Yes it's sad, but it's also just the way things are.
The name is LEE!
The difference is the shape of the skeleton finger does not resemble an "extra" anything. It does not look like an extra leaf, tree, or partial appendage of an existing feature ( it is not an extra partial thumb superimposed below an existing thumb). It is a new look.
It is a large, unique feature that looks unlike any intended attribute that is present on the reverse. It stands out on its own. Absent is the "oh yeah, now I can see it". It is a well defined, interesting look that has eye appeal for error collectors. It is for anyone who thinks an unintended skeletons feature stamped on a coin makes that coin unique and collectable.
There are not that many of these so you had better get them while you can. They were only in the 4/23 boxes.
<< <i>There are not that many of these so you had better get them while you can. They were only in the 4/23 boxes. >>
I have to correct you on this. "Skeletons" were also in $25 bank boxes. That's where the later stages were found.
I did not realize that. What is the # on that one?
I happen to know that there is a very vocal group of IKE guys (who shall remain nameless) who have been trying for several years to get the FEV Friendly Eagle Variety aka RDV-006 1971-D IKE Dollar in the PCGS Major and Complete Varieties Registry Set.
So far no luck
GrandAm
Hint in my signature line
<< <i>Pitboss the skeletons found in bank rolls are the same DDR as the 4/23 boxes but later stages with a more prominent die crack on the obverse and then the final stage with a large die crack on the reverse. You mentioned that you have some of these so they are the same as you already have. This die failed very quickly due to the various die cracks. Although the later stages were indeed found in bank rolls I beleive they are in very limited numbers. One collector I spoke with who had the CDDR-009 with the crack on the obverse searched 20,000 coins and found just 17! Factor this in with the first stage found only in 4/23 LP2 boxes, multipe die cracks, and an obverse die switch, the skeleton finger is a winner in my book. PLUS it has the DDO and out of all the various varieties for FY series, none look like this DDR. It stands alone. >>
Is anybody picking up some of those WDDR 006's that " heny43" is offering for sale on ebay (5 coins for $45) besides me.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>papi, a lot of members here like to play devils advocate , dont take it personal and thanks for your post. If everyone gets together on this maybe they will be listed, that is the jist of your post and I appreciate your efforts, take care----------BigE >>
Thanks BigE. I guess some are just prone to complete negativity.
I felt PCGS's message was a positive indication. >>
Absolutely nobody is prone to "negativity" as much as folks already know that if a coin gets into the CPG that PCGS will attribute it. This is nothing new and if anything, Noah's response was totally canned. I'm certain I could get the exact response if I asked about DDO or DDR Eisenhowers.
The hundreds of DDR Lincolns is nothing new either as the exact same scenario played out with the Minnesota Extra Tree's (which get attributed but which also don't really attract a premium) and the DDR 2004 Ocean in View Nickels which folks just lost interest in.
The reality of the situation is two fold.
First, folks that have no experience with die varieties get REALLY excited when they come across them but this is to be expected as it IS very exciting. But, when the varieties start numbering in the hundreds AND they are easily found THEN you really have nothing thats SPECIAL. They are true varieties but are not held real high on the numismatic premium scale. Now, this is not discounting the coins but to press hard to get these into the CPG with the intent of "cashing in" is something that probably will not happen since the cash cow for these coins left the barn about 6 months back. Any premiums to be had, left with the cow.
As a variety collector myself, I can appreciate the efforts of many to collect an entire series of these coins just for the sake of having them. But to entertain the thoughts that you'll make money off of the venture is just silly since each coin will cost you a "minimum" of $38.00 just to get PCGS to slab it.
I doubt seriously that folks will pay $38 for a slabbed version and in the long run, the collector is the one who will get poorer by having these attributed and slabbed. This situation, is typical with ANY modern coin beit a variety series or simply a coin series. There are many coins which I could have slabbed for a registry set but its way cheaper to simply buy what I need at half and sometimes one fourth of the slabbing fee's.
The second reality of the situation is that while these coins were being discovered, folks had a TON of FUN looking for them and getting them attributed. You get your name associated with the variety, it may get printed in Coin World, it always gets posted on the Internet and it's, well, a lot of fun. Heck, finding anything these days is just a lot of fun!
But, going to Disneyland is just as much fun and as with anything, it comes to an end. These coins had their time in the limelight. The prices they bring today, right now, this week, are exactly the same prices they MAY bring if and when the get put into the CPG and PCGS attributes them.
Today, the coins can and do get attributed and slabbed by ANACS. I would think that folks would be rushing to get them into ANACS holders since that will protect them and enable collectors to build graded sets. ANACS is not all that bad and sometimes can be downright stingy with grades. I really don't see any special significance with PCGS adding them to the list of coins which they attribute. Yes, they could get put into a registry which would be great but I don't think it will be of any real significance except to a few select individuals.
Again, I'm not trying to be negative, just realistic. But if some of you intend to hoard these away in the hopes that your retirment will be well padded because you already have hundreds of them stuck away, well let's just say you should rethink that position and instead just coincentrate on the best quality coins. Because if you have hundreds, then there are hundreds of other folks that also have hundreds.
Not trying to shoot you down but the actual, numismatic reality is that there are a lot of these, in both variety and sheer number of coins, and a lot of folks have stuck them away which translates into, there will always be a lot to choose from. Only the highest of grades will ever realize any premiums.
Say, what are those DDR Ocean in View Nickels bringing today anyway?
This one, didn;t sell for less than the grading fee's.
Neither did this one.
As for the Lincoln DDR's, they just aren't selling and even an act of God (i.e. PCGS) won't change that. Yes it's sad, but it's also just the way things are. >>
There is a lot of wisdom in that statement
<< <i>
<< <i>Pitboss the skeletons found in bank rolls are the same DDR as the 4/23 boxes but later stages with a more prominent die crack on the obverse and then the final stage with a large die crack on the reverse. You mentioned that you have some of these so they are the same as you already have. This die failed very quickly due to the various die cracks. Although the later stages were indeed found in bank rolls I beleive they are in very limited numbers. One collector I spoke with who had the CDDR-009 with the crack on the obverse searched 20,000 coins and found just 17! Factor this in with the first stage found only in 4/23 LP2 boxes, multipe die cracks, and an obverse die switch, the skeleton finger is a winner in my book. PLUS it has the DDO and out of all the various varieties for FY series, none look like this DDR. It stands alone. >>
Is anybody picking up some of those WDDR 006's that " heny43" is offering for sale on ebay (5 coins for $45) besides me. >>
yes I bought 5
Joe
Good move Joe. I don't know how many more he has.
I can think of at least a few other varieties that do have a big following and do command big premiums that do sell frequently that (IMO) should be recognized by PCGS (1971-D RDV-006 Ike, for example, which has a prototype design that is very different from the regular version) but aren't, and I'd be disappointed if the extra thumbs suddenly were...
BTW- 19lyds couldn't have written wiser words...
<< <i>Good move Joe. I don't know how many more he has. >>
He has sold 2 sets of 5 today and no more are currently listed.
The big 3 , WDDR 001,002, and 006 are getting very hard to come by now.
I don't care what naysayers are saying, these are going to be good coins to own.
If people don't like them then don't read the threads about them.